Baseball cards as an asset class
 

Posted By: <b>Brian Lindholme</b><p>So, I don't know if this means anything philosophical or will have any relevance to my portfolio, but the first time I meant the kind JimB was in a Starbucks in Portland. We had some relaxing warm drink (...okay it was coffee) and talked baseball cards, and played some show+tell with cards.<br />Had we thought to bring up the writings of Rawls, or the wealth of Carlos Slim Helu it would have been just the perfect summation of this rather interesting thread.<br /><br />(Hey I also work in the telecommunications industry, where's my E93 Matty?)<br /><br />Actually that was a great day... Gotta do that again, Jim!<br /><br />Brian L<br />familytoad<br />

Baseball cards as an asset class
 

Posted By: <b>JimB</b><p>That was a lot of fun Brian. We should definately do it again.<br />JimB

Baseball cards as an asset class
 

Posted By: <b>Fred C</b><p>Cardboard investments... wow, let's all go out there and start indiscriminantly dropping all of our expendable income on cardboard... oh yeah, we've already done that...<br /><br />It would be interesting to see what the "cardboard investment" gurus are touting as "investments". I'd have to guess that they've already selected "hi grade" material as a potential investment. I wonder what else they think is going to be "the stuff". <br /><br />I think to a lot of us these cards really don't represent an investment, they're more of an escape from the daily grind.

Baseball cards as an asset class
 

Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Of course Bruce is correct here.<br /><br />Collectibles are a valid investment and certainly can be considered part of anyone's portfolio. I think anywhere between 10-20% of a portfolio can be put in collectibles--art, coins, sport cards etc. I wish the rest of my portfolio(real estate, stocks etc.) would have done as well as my sports cards.<br /><br />Jim

Baseball cards as an asset class
 

Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Fred, why can't cards be both?<br /><br />I buy only cards I like and I pass on cards that could be thought of as giving me the possibility of a greater return on investment over time. So, if I'm an investor I'm a lousy one at that when it comes to cards. But in the end the money I'm putting into cards will come back to me and possibly bring large returns -- so why can't I at last have an investment vehicle that gives me pleasure, much like real estate? These are not mutually exclusive concepts as any time you drop large numbers into a collectible it becomes part of your net worth, whether you perceive it to be that way or not.

Baseball cards as an asset class
 

Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>I agree that cards are both.<br /><br />They're a hobby and a form of relaxation, and along the way they generally increase in value.<br /><br />I would think even the person who buys baseball cards purely for investment at least derives some pleasure from them. They certainly have more aesthetic appeal than pork belly futures.

Baseball cards as an asset class
 

Posted By: <b>peter chao</b><p>Again, it goes back to what your investment goal is, it it's important to derive pleasure from your investments then baseball cards seems like a worthy investment.<br /><br />However, my goal is simpler. I don't want to get into another argument with my wife about the amount of space my cards take up at home. With a 3 car garage, there's only room for two cars, she thinks I'm way too involved in the hobby. According to her if I spent as much time working as I do on the hobby we would be living in Beverly Hills by now.<br /><br />Peter C.

Baseball cards as an asset class
 

Posted By: <b>JimB</b><p>Peter,<br />Beverly Hills is overrated. However, baseball cards are still a relative bargain. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br />JimB

Baseball cards as an asset class
 

Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Anyone who has invested a lot in graded baseball cards in the last decade has been a genius. Doesn't mean they will continue to go up--maybe they won't--but no question it is a viable asset class that has the dual benefit of being fun.<br /><br />CD's, muni bonds, ugh!<br /><br />If you don't have an oil well...get one!....and buy some high end vintage cards too.

Baseball cards as an asset class
 

Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Jim, I hate to hijack this thread but here's a thought that must have crossed your mind: if the price of a barrel of oil went back to $50 overnight --Iran goes bankrupt in how many months?

Baseball cards as an asset class
 

Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Jeff,<br /><br />Don't know the answer--but I think oil will stay high--at least another 3-4 years. Amazing given $70-plus bbl. global oil production can barely keep up with small demand growth.<br /><br />Jim

Baseball cards as an asset class
 

Posted By: <b>Fred C</b><p>Jeff, <br /><br />I never said that cards weren't investments. I just don't view them as that. Maybe that's foolish. To be an investment I'd have spend money (or capital) in an enterprise with the expectation of profit. That's not what I'm doing. I collect the cards because it's something I've done for a long time because I enjoy it. When I started out (and even now) it never occurred to me to make a profit off this stuff. For example, if I see an OJ of a player I really want, I don't break out the calculator and begin to figure out how much it's going to be worth 10 years down the road. <br /><br />I suppose this stuff is very liquid in many cases and people could sell off a collection and buy a house with the money. Is a house an investment. To most yes, but to idiots like me it's just a place where I live. If I ever sold my house I'd have to find another or become a homeless person with a pretty nasty attitude because I'd have to carry all my frigging cards with me on the streets....<br /><br /><br />

Baseball cards as an asset class
 

Posted By: <b>John</b><p>You don’t seem to hear much in the way of barrels of crude oil having their edges spooned out to present better on the open market to investors, not much in the way of forged copies of stock certificates passed off as real. <br /><br />I also to date have never really heard of a person with a large stock or futures portfolio bouncing the idea of having a third party inspection/seal of approval letter process by yet another unknown third party to validate his or her investments worth. <br /><br />I think it would also be safe to say that this same genius better hope that as more issues continue to come to light. That the very set of standards in which the genius dropped so much cash and currently values his or her portfolio, is never questioned by the very community that the so called genius expects to reap his or her profits from??<br /><br />If that were to in fact happen, I think many so called investors could stand to lose quite a bit just a thought.<br /><br />Before we start to toss around the word GENIUS lets take a step back.<br /><br /><br /><img src="http://photos.imageevent.com/piojohn3/junkforumimages/small/einstein.jpg"> <img src="http://photos.imageevent.com/piojohn3/junkforumimages/sjff_03_img1191.jpg"> <br /><br /><i>edited to add pics for Jeff</i>

Baseball cards as an asset class
 

Posted By: <b>Jim Crandell</b><p>Anyone who bought high end vintage graded sports cards 10 years ago could sell them today for multiples of what he paid for them-- today he is a genius. If they drop in half for whatever reason--not so smart. Baseball cards are relatively liquid and each auction confirms the investment appeal. Oil could drop in half too.

Baseball cards as an asset class
 

Posted By: <b>Fred C</b><p>Jeff,<br /><br />"so why can't I at last have an investment vehicle that gives me pleasure"<br /><br />It would be nice to have an investment that can give you pleasure. I would love to have been one of the three people that paid $10K for John Henry (the race horse). That must have been an investment that brought a lot of pleasure to the purchasers of that horse.

Baseball cards as an asset class
 

Posted By: <b>John</b><p>I have a feeling that most anyone who bought high end cards 10yrs ago wasn’t thinking purely of ROI, but more collecting cards and enjoying a hobby. Are they worth more today, sure but the same could be said of most anything from 10yrs ago. That doesn’t make anyone a genius IMO.<br /><br />For arguments sake if this so called person was looking at a these purchases from the sole standpoint of ROI, there were many other things 10yrs ago which would have made this so called genius many times more wealthy than that of baseball cards.<br />

Baseball cards as an asset class
 

Posted By: <b>davidcycleback</b><p>Whether or not baseball cards is an "asset class" is merely a rhetorical game.<br /><br />Which has higher a financial return for the owner: $1 million return on 'investment' cards or $1 million return 'collectible' cards? The answer, of course, is the returns are identical. Only the nicknames for the cards are different. If you had instead labeled one of the two groups 'purple monkeys from Mars' cards, the financial returns would again be the identical. <br /><br />As most baseball card 'collectors' hope that their cards appreciate in financial value and hope that the cards don't sell for 1/8th of the purchase price ten years down the road and try to buy and sell their cards at good prices, the difference between the self-professed investor and self-professed collector often is what they call themselves.

Baseball cards as an asset class
 

Posted By: <b>Fred C</b><p>The funny part is that there were lots of people speculating on rookie cards about 20 years ago. I wonder how much an 89 Upper Deck Griffey sells for today? I can remember people paying well over a hundred bucks for that card. Me, nope, I never really got caught up into it that much. I remember buying a pile of a hundred Dickerson (football) rookies for .39 each and a pile of a hundred Marino rookies for .49 each. I pretty much sold all the Marino's many years ago when people were paying a lot for that stuff. I was never into paying $100 for a rookie card that was only a few years old... now if you look at people that "invested" in those cards I'm sure you can find a lot of people shaking their heads (and kicking themselves in the butt) because of their "investments"... sure, some people made good money on that stuff but I don't see that happening again any time soon. Hold that thought... there are some people that still fuel a hyped card and pay tons for it... (Alex Gordon - Topps comes to mind...).

Baseball cards as an asset class
 

Posted By: <b>Jim VB</b><p>Jeff- "...why can't I at last have an investment vehicle that gives me pleasure..."<br /><br /><br />Taken out of context, this statement makes you sound like a pimp with a stable of "ladies". &lt;LOL&gt;

Baseball cards as an asset class
 

Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Jim, that's true -- the pimp does need to sample the merchandise...

Baseball cards as an asset class
 

Posted By: <b>JK</b><p>Fred,<br /><br />Im a collector at heart, but IMO cards can obviously be an investment vehicle. I see nothing inconsistent with them being both a collectable and an investment. As for your comment about rookie cards, I think it proves the point that cards are viewed as an investment by many - doesnt mean its always a good investment. Of course, stocks and bonds arent always a good investment either - just ask anyone who purchased Sun, Cisco, Microsoft, Lucent, etc. right before the tech bubble burst.

Baseball cards as an asset class
 

Posted By: <b>Ed Ivey</b><p>wonder what jim cramer would say about the performance of the e93 matty.

Baseball cards as an asset class
 

Posted By: <b>boxingcardman</b><p>Comparing rookie cards from the 1990s to vintage cards is like comparing penny stocks to the DJ components. They may have the same general classification but they are about as different as can be. Every year since the early 1990s we see articles on how crappy the (new) card market is; yet vintage has gone through the roof. <br /><br />I'd trace the "investment" mentality back a lot further than 10 years ago (1997). Probably back to when Rosen and his crowd started self-promoting.

Baseball cards as an asset class
 

Posted By: <b>davidcycleback</b><p>A difference between collecting and investing is no one ever collected 2,000 Todd Van Poppel rookie cards, but a whole lot of people invested in 2,000 Todd Van Poppel rookie cards.<br /><br />In other words, collecting often is a better investment than investing. Especially when your collecting involves looking for quality and beauty and rarity, rather than for Todd Van Poppel by the pound.

Baseball cards as an asset class
 

Posted By: <b>Fred C</b><p>I would never compare vintage collecting to 80s/90s rookies hoarding... yikes!!! Although I sure wish I hoarded vintage back in the 70s and 80s.