Picture of Wagner PSA 8 before grading
 

Posted By: <b>martindl</b><p><br />James Feagin noted what I saw in the original B&W image what is now clearly seen in the new color image - the mark halfway down the left, a blemish of some sort. If the new image and the CARD are the same, then its not just trimming at right but a little color restoration at left perhaps?

Picture of Wagner PSA 8 before grading
 

Posted By: <b>Steve f</b><p>The plot thickens. great eyes out there

Picture of Wagner PSA 8 before grading
 

Posted By: <b>Joseph</b><p>Just for the halibut, thought I'd post the best quality present state "Card" scan I can:<br /><br /><img src="http://i189.photobucket.com/albums/z36/1969mets_2007/HonusWagnerCard-3.jpg">

Picture of Wagner PSA 8 before grading
 

Posted By: <b>Jay</b><p>Or perhaps the mark comes from the holder the card is in

Picture of Wagner PSA 8 before grading
 

Posted By: <b>JimB</b><p>Joseph,<br />Can you post a clear big scan of the photo next to it?<br />JimB

Picture of Wagner PSA 8 before grading
 

Posted By: <b>Joseph</b><p>Jim,<br /><br />Can't really get a decent pic of the before photo to compare. In fact--based on this photographic evidence, I'm beginning to think that the card is NOT trimmed. Even though we, of course, almost all believe (ie know) it is.

Picture of Wagner PSA 8 before grading
 

Posted By: <b>Dan Bretta</b><p>It looks like the same card to me from the tiny bit of registration problems on his shoulders to the bit of blue ink that bleeds out on the bottom border...the image appears to come out of the border on the lower left on both cards as well. I think it's a legit picture of "The Card".<br /><br />edited to add - just looking at the blown up scan of the PSA 8 Wagner you can see that it is obviously trimmed by looking at all 4 corners. Pull a new Topps card out of a pack and look to see if the corners flare out like that.<br />

Picture of Wagner PSA 8 before grading
 

Posted By: <b>Pennsylvania Ted</b><p>In a Thread, months ago, where I posted my theory on why the T206 Plank card is scarce, I also noted<br /> that Wagner was a heavy cigar smoker most of his life. Furthermore, I noted the obvious contradiction <br />to his "anti-cigarette" myth in his appearance in the T216 series....<br />Not just once, but 4 different cards of him in each of the T216 issues (Kotton, MINO, Virginia Extra).<br />Actually, two different poses with each identifying him as a SS or a 2nd baseman.<br /><br />All this went over like a "lead baloon" back then......anyhow, I'll add my "two drachmas" to the subject at<br /> hand here. As one who saw this Wagner card in it's "raw" form back in the '80s when it was being shopped<br /> around at the Willow Grove Show, the short glimpse I got of it wasn't enough to make a valid determination<br /> as to whether it was altered in any way. But, I also recall the "buzz" that was asociated with this card to<br /> the tune that it was.<br /><br />Then in the early '90s, I got a closer look at this card at the Copeland sale at Sotheby's, and it was mind-<br />boggeling that the same card that no one would spring 25-30K for at Willow Grove just a few years before,<br /> was being sold for 451K !<br /><br />Finally, there appears to be two schools of thought on Net54 regarding this Wagner that breakdown along<br /> the lines according to longevity in this hobby. The newer collectors tend to believe this card is "infallible".<br />The older group tend to be more skeptical regarding this card's true condition....despite the fact that it is<br /> professionally graded.

Picture of Wagner PSA 8 before grading
 

Posted By: <b>boxingcardman</b><p>Then again, it looked trimmed to me when I saw it in person at various Nationals. <br /><br />Nice image, BTW, thanks for posting it. <br />

Picture of Wagner PSA 8 before grading
 

Posted By: <b>Marc S.</b><p>&lt;&lt;Finally, there appears to be two schools of thought on Net54 regarding this Wagner that breakdown along<br />the lines according to longevity in this hobby. The newer collectors tend to believe this card is "infallible".<br />The older group tend to be more skeptical regarding this card's true condition....despite the fact that it is<br />professionally graded.&gt;&gt;<br /><br />I don't want to say I'm a newer collector, but given that I'm only 31 years old, I don't think I quite yet am a hobby dinosaur. Perhaps a few more years. <br /><br />I think there is a good portion of newer collectors that simply do not know what to think. There is ample evidence out there to at least be questioning of the card's true condition and how it may or may not have changed over the past 15 years. That said, there is also what appears to be a clear case of sour grapes by many of the hobby dinosaurs against a) both the card itself and b) some of the major players involved with the card over the past 15 years. As such, there is nothing definitive to sway the argument one way or another. At the end of the day, though, I think this continuing and ongoing debate only serves to raise the profile of the card itself...

Picture of Wagner PSA 8 before grading
 

Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Has Dave Forman ever weighed in on this?<br /><br />For the record, how about those top corners? Isn't that a prototypical sign of trimming?

Picture of Wagner PSA 8 before grading
 

Posted By: <b>JimB</b><p>Marc S.<br />Well put.<br />JimB

Picture of Wagner PSA 8 before grading
 

Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>It's a little bowed at the top.<br /><br />And I bet I could guess Dave Forman's opinion.

Picture of Wagner PSA 8 before grading
 

Posted By: <b>Rick McQuillan</b><p>I'm not the best grader in the world, but a PSA8? The bottom border is chipped, the corners are flared, it has print marks, and a small spot of orange ink in the top border. 8 seems a little high. <br /><br />My first thought when I looked at the card was "trimmed", but what do I know?<br /><br />Rick<br /><br /><br />

Picture of Wagner PSA 8 before grading
 

Posted By: <b>JimB</b><p>Rick,<br />You have to consider that that image is blown up quite a bit, so the flaws are exaggerated. Look at the smaller photo and see how offensive they are. The chipping on the bottom tells me the bottom edge was NOT trimmed.<br />JimB

Picture of Wagner PSA 8 before grading
 

Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>I have to say though, the card is not lacking in eye appeal.

Picture of Wagner PSA 8 before grading
 

Posted By: <b>Marc S.</b><p>and others have simply said something along the lines of:<br /><br />The best way to evaluate a card is outside of its holder. For high value cards, there are huge liability/damage concerns when opening up a card's plastic encapsulation. As such, they would not as a company ever put themselves in the situation as to free such a card as the Wagner from its holder, and they would not like to offer any professional opinions, one way or the other, without seeing the card outside of its holder.<br /><br /><br />It's basically a cop out answer, but I think we all agree that the best way to detect alterations, specifically of the trimming variety, is by closely examining a card's edges under loupe. That is not possible with the Wagner in its current encapsulated state.

Picture of Wagner PSA 8 before grading
 

Posted By: <b>Leon</b><p>One of the very few high grade cards that I own, the SGC 92 D304 I recently won, has some factory chipping on the bottom border. It's as it was manufactured....otherwise, I am not too great at detecting trimming (besides obvious stuff). I always thought the Wagner had a bat ear on the upper left corner and I have always been told it was ok....so what do I know?

Picture of Wagner PSA 8 before grading
 

Posted By: <b>Mark Evans</b><p>As with the view of the poll (per Leon), I am persuaded by the basic thesis of the book (card cut from sheet and then re-cut) for two related reasons -- first, the story is simply too bizarre to be made up out of thin air and second, none of the individuals involved has contradicted the story in a public forum. How this will affect the card's value I have no idea. Mark

Picture of Wagner PSA 8 before grading
 

Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>I just finished reading the book a few moments ago. Contrary to many of the previous board opinions, I found it pretty intriguing. Wish he had somebody in the hobby proofread it though. I read his list of 30 rarest cards and among them was the N172 Anson in street clothes...think he got that one backwards.

Picture of Wagner PSA 8 before grading
 

Posted By: <b>peter ullman</b><p>wow...that high res scan is awesome...it looks like it was hand picked by Lionel Carter...but he never would have trimmed it!<br /><br />pete in mn

Picture of Wagner PSA 8 before grading
 

Posted By: <b>Eric Brehm</b><p>Here is another comparison using the news photo posted by JimB and the higher resolution scan of the PSA-graded example that Joseph provided. The top and bottom borders look strikingly similar, while the side borders are clearly narrower on the graded one. But the news photo is just too murky to find any distinguishing characteristic that establishes definitively that they are the same card.<br /><br />But, as Barry pointed out, if the raw card shown in the news photo is not the one which was encapsulated, then what and where the heck is that card?<br /><br /><img src="http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r143/ebrehm1/wagners3.jpg">

Picture of Wagner PSA 8 before grading
 

Posted By: <b>Glyn Parson</b><p>that thinks the card is played with but, if were wealthy enough would still buy it? It has the best eye appeal of any wagner i have ever seen.

Picture of Wagner PSA 8 before grading
 

Posted By: <b>Jon Canfield</b><p>Maybe it's just me, but looking at Eric's latest side-by-said comparison, it appears to me that all four borders, top to bottom and side to side, are pretty darn close. I can't exactly see the difference anymore. I have a large computer screen and just on a whim, I took a ruler and measured the borders from the picture to the edge for the card on both the high res color scan and the black and white photo. I came out with virtually the same numbers, and the tiniest of differences I can chalk up to the fact that although the images are close in size, they are not 100% exact. Anyone else's thoughts?

Picture of Wagner PSA 8 before grading
 

Posted By: <b>Brian</b><p>I agree Jon. I can't tell an obvious difference in the borders based on those two scans.

Picture of Wagner PSA 8 before grading
 

Posted By: <b>MW</b><p>Brian was quoted in Michael O'Keeffe's book as saying the "before photo" was inconclusive. In the side-by-side comparison above (which I believe to be an accurate one) there is no discernable difference between the two cards. It appears that Michael O'Keeffe owes PSA and Bill Mastro an apology for some of his statements and allegations.

Picture of Wagner PSA 8 before grading
 

Posted By: <b>peter chao</b><p>I'm pretty sure that before the Card is resold or auctioned we will all hear Mastro and PSA's side of the story.<br /><br />Peter

Picture of Wagner PSA 8 before grading
 

Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>I don't think we will ever hear a word from either side.

Picture of Wagner PSA 8 before grading
 

Posted By: <b>peter chao</b><p>Of course that's possible, but collectors will believe there's a good chance that the Card was trimmed at some point. If everything was kosher they would speak up.<br /><br />Peter

Picture of Wagner PSA 8 before grading
 

Posted By: <b>boxingcardman</b><p>Unless there is irrefutable evidence out there (such as a confession from someone directly involved in the trimming), the best way to stay out front of the issue is to maintain silence in the face of the accusation. Leave it to the chat board readers, rumor mongers and speculators to talk out the issue, and let business return to normal. Also, it is better to have no record of your position in case the facts take a turn for the worse rather than pinning yourself down to a story in public. And follow the old maxim that good or bad publicity doesn't matter as long as they spell your name right. <br /><br />Also remember, no matter what Mastro would say on the issue, he'd lose. If he says he trimmed the card and fooled PSA and the rest of the collecting world, he destroys his trade. Not gonna happen. If he says I never did anything of the sort, no one who thinks the card is altered will change their minds (they'll just think he's a liar too) and no one who thinks the card is OK will change their minds about Mastro. About all he would do is leave himself open to charges of lying if seemingly irrefutable evidence were to emerge later on. <br /><br />One thing you are forgetting as well is that what we are talking about is a conspiracy to defraud. Evidence of conspiracies rarely leaps out at you and says "hello, we got together to cheat you" (unless the conspirators are really lame). You have to build it inferentially from bits and pieces of evidence. Many building blocks are there in this case. There is testimony from witnesses to the prior condition of the card, some possible photographic evidence of the card, Hughes' observations on grading the card, and what many of us see in looking at the card now. What is missing is the cutter and the mastermind, and they are never, ever going to come forward. In lawyerspeak, I think we could get to a jury on the evidence but what they'd do with it, I have no idea.

Picture of Wagner PSA 8 before grading
 

Posted By: <b>peter chao</b><p>You brought up good points. <br /><br />Peter

Picture of Wagner PSA 8 before grading
 

Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Thank you Adam. I couldn't have expressed it that well myself.

Picture of Wagner PSA 8 before grading
 

Posted By: <b>dan mckee</b><p>Wans't this card refused as trimmed the first time it was submitted to PSA? Is there a record of that somewhere or just another rumor? Dan.

Picture of Wagner PSA 8 before grading
 

Posted By: <b>Marc S.</b><p>I thought that PSA really did not exist before the grading of Wagner and it was specifically this card that led to the creation of PSA as an independent third-party grading company.

Picture of Wagner PSA 8 before grading
 

Posted By: <b>dan mckee</b><p>Huh? It is in a slab now, I thought the first time it was submitted was just before this slabbing. PSA was created because grading had taken off in coins so it spawned over to cards was my understanding. Dan.

Picture of Wagner PSA 8 before grading
 

Posted By: <b>JimB</b><p>I have never heard of it being rejected. It was part of PSA's big splash opening.<br />JimB

Picture of Wagner PSA 8 before grading
 

Posted By: <b>dan mckee</b><p>Really? Am I the only one that heard that?? oops! I don't want to get shot over this.

Picture of Wagner PSA 8 before grading
 

Posted By: <b>D.C. Markel</b><p><img src="http://www.nydailynews.com/img/2007/06/26/amd_wagner2.jpg"> <img src="http://i189.photobucket.com/albums/z36/1969mets_2007/HonusWagnerCard-3.jpg"><br /><br />Looking at the best two photos of before and after (shown above), I would say at the very least it is inconclusive and more than likely not the same card. That prominent black dot to the left of left earlobe (facing us) doesn't seem to show up on the "before" pic, although it could be argued that the resolution on the before pic is inadequate. But there also seems to be a tiny blue dot above his left ear (facing us) on the before pic that doesn't show in the after pic.<br /><br />The other thing about the newspaper photo is that it looks like the Wagner card is in a CardSaver I. There is even some reflection off the holder where the "CardSaver I" logo would be located if it was a CardSaver I. I know the makers of that those holders, CardbordGold, came into business just around the time of the sale of the card, but did they offer that size holder with the logo in 1985? I don't know, but it would be nice if it could be proven if the photo dates itself in some way. Perhaps if the photo ifself has a printing date with the appropriate printing paper. These are things I'd like to now more about before drawing any conclusions, which may also flush out a hoax.<br /><br />This large scan of the "8" does show some wear in the bottom, which one wouldn't expect from a trimmed card. Of course I'm aware that some people will generate contrived wear on a fake card to fool people, but I can't see that happening on an authentic T206 Wagner. <br /><br />Finally, the whole Alan Ray/Mastro story is bothersome. In my opinion, that whole story comes across as a severely embittered individual who most likely made a relatively gigantic profit but is enraged because he didn't make a super-mega-colossal profit on the card. The whole "he bullied me into selling it" diatribe is also laughable - as if Mastro put a gun to his head to force the sale. <br /><br />I guess it all makes great message board fodder, but in the end there is still no smoking gun and the mystique lingers on.

Picture of Wagner PSA 8 before grading
 

Posted By: <b>larry</b><p>is it just the scan (of the newspaper picture), or is the diamond cut reversed on the two? also, doesn't the diamond cut on the 8 make it look like a trim on the top rather than an actual trim? when i look at the big scan, it looks perfectly "square" on the top.

Picture of Wagner PSA 8 before grading
 

Posted By: <b>MW</b><p>Larry,<br /><br />I think part of the problem stems from the fact that in the second picture of the T206 Wagner on the NY Daily News website, the card is actually leaning against another object at an oblique angle. Therefore a certain distortion (parallax) is created that is typical of this type of photography. Furthermore, in the first image of the Wagner on the NY Daily News site it is clear that the inner border on the card is uneven -- another indication of photographic distortion.<br /><br />I'm sure some photography experts (David Rudd?) can explain this effect better.

Picture of Wagner PSA 8 before grading
 

Posted By: <b>Eric B</b><p>I still think that if you take the known dimensions of the black border area (the same for all T206's) and then compare the ratio of the white outside borders to black borders on that great detailed picture, you can determine the actual card dimensions that nobody seems to know.

Picture of Wagner PSA 8 before grading
 

Posted By: <b>peter ullman</b><p>my god that large scan is mesmerizing...i think i'm in love!<br /><br />pete in mn

Picture of Wagner PSA 8 before grading
 

Posted By: <b>Mark Evans</b><p>Keith Olbermann had a segment on The Card on his show tonight. Mark

Picture of Wagner PSA 8 before grading
 

Posted By: <b>peter chao</b><p>Missed the show. Did Keith say anything interesting.<br /><br />Peter

Picture of Wagner PSA 8 before grading
 

Posted By: <b>masimm</b><p>I think the real questions should be - Where did Alan Ray get the card from? Did Alan Ray cut this card from a sheet? If so, prior to 1985 - where was the sheet for the last 76 years? Was it sitting in some abandoned tobacco factory warehouse? You would think someone would come around and say, "Hey, Alan Ray bullied me into selling this card sheet to him for $100. And he cut it!" LOL! Was this card stolen - which would be the only explanation for the secret where-abouts before Alan Ray? I've read where Jefferson Burdick's collection at the museum had some cards stolen over the years when the public was allowed to actually pull out the albums and look/hold the cards. This of course way back in the 1940's and 1950's. Could it have come from there? Rather than dwell on whether the card was touched up, I wonder if the card is even real? Maybe a reprint? Also, what about the other cards Ray had to throw in to Mastro to make the 25k deal? What players were they and were they cut from the same sheet?

Picture of Wagner PSA 8 before grading
 

Posted By: <b>davidcycleback</b><p>I may change my mind looking at the pictures some more, but I'd say the pictures are inconclusive at this time. As Michael mentioned, it's problematic comparing the borders of two cards when one is pictured straight and centered and the other is pictured tilted and slightly bent.

Picture of Wagner PSA 8 before grading
 

Posted By: <b>Mark Evans</b><p>Peter--<br /><br />Keith's show tracked the N.Y. Daily News article. As I recall, he also noted that he has a personal source with first-hand knowledge who told him the card was trimmed. Mark

Picture of Wagner PSA 8 before grading
 

Posted By: <b>peter chao</b><p>So after the Card was cut from the sheet, it was subsequently trimmed...now the big question is who was the source?<br /><br />Peter

Picture of Wagner PSA 8 before grading
 

Posted By: <b>Peter Spaeth</b><p>The markings on the cards look different to me, particularly the blue dot above the ear on the before.

Picture of Wagner PSA 8 before grading
 

Posted By: <b>Peter Thomas</b><p>Just to the left of center over Wagner's head there are 3 red dots that are in the top border on the graded card. It looks to me like the same dots are in the other image which is not nearly as clear.

Picture of Wagner PSA 8 before grading
 

Posted By: <b>Ronnie</b><p>I saw that they had an interview with Michael O'Keefe on the game used forum...<br /><br /><a href="http://www.gameuseduniverse.com/vb_forum/showthread.php?t=9398" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.gameuseduniverse.com/vb_forum/showthread.php?t=9398</a><br /><br />Ron

Picture of Wagner PSA 8 before grading
 

Posted By: <b>Dan Bretta</b><p>Did anyone happen to read the link in that interview to the Kellen Winslow helmet in the April Mastro auction? <br /><br /><a href="http://www.gameuseduniverse.com/vb_forum/showthread.php?t=8654" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.gameuseduniverse.com/vb_forum/showthread.php?t=8654</a><br /><br />Wow....just wow.

Picture of Wagner PSA 8 before grading
 

Posted By: <b>Ronnie</b><p>I love the backpedaling once things were revealed. Doctored cards, doctored game used items. Shouldn't surprise anyone really.

Picture of Wagner PSA 8 before grading
 

Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Dan, if that link does not convince everyone to stay away from game used stuff on Mastro (or any auction site) I don't know what could. Shocking to say the least.

Picture of Wagner PSA 8 before grading
 

Posted By: <b>Dan Bretta</b><p>It is sure enough to make one wonder what in the hell is going on at Mastro. Why didn't Doug answer any of those guys questions like he does occasionally over here?<br /><br />I'm no fan of O'Keeffe's, he did after all write a blatant lie in one of his columns about the people here at Net54, but he has some very valid points in that Q&A.<br /><br />All of this makes Leland's poor taste (Clemente Airplane) pretty tame to what is going on at Mastro. They admit to altering cards before sending them off to the graders, and now this???? They have no excuse for that Helmet. None.

Picture of Wagner PSA 8 before grading
 

Posted By: <b>Rob Dewolf</b><p>Jeff,<br /><br />I sometimes tell this story about why I would never pay a dime for any piece of equipment touted as being "game used":<br /><br />In 1989 I played for the Wichita Wranglers, the Class AA team of the San Diego Padres. Early in the season, our team's bat order from Louisville Slugger was delayed, so the parent club shipped six dozen bats to hold us over. There were a variety of different player models, and in searching through the boxes, I came across a few of Tony Gwynn's, who just so happened to use the same model (C271) as I did. I immediately snagged three of them. I kept one (the collector in me) and used two others during the next few weeks. Another coincidence is that Gwynn and I each wore the same uniform number. I ended up cracking the two I used after much game use.<br /><br />So ... two bats issued to Tony Gwynn, each -- by coincidence -- bears his uniform number on the bottom of the handle and each shows great game use (albeit Texas League game use). Assuming that Gwynn didn't tape his bat handles in some intricate manner that was different in how I taped mine, my bet is these could easily be passed off as game-used by him.<br /><br />I'm sure situations in which team-issued equipment gets passed along and made to look game used happens all the time. Unless I saw the player use it and he handed it to me, I'd always be leery.

Picture of Wagner PSA 8 before grading
 

Posted By: <b>Rich</b><p>I have some access to a local low level minor league club and was there the day their bats came in for 2006. Essentially, they were given bargain deals on the runovers and printing errors of MLB orders to Louisville Slugger. The team was more concerned with weight, length, etc. but it was surprising to find bats that had been created for several big league clubs/players. I personally held a couple of Pudge Rodriguez models and there were many more. No doubt there are plenty of these bats that wind up in the marketplace with no readily apparent signs of which ballfield they came from. <br /><br />BTW, here's another Q&A with the author: <a href="http://www.sportscollectorsdaily.com/latest/author-talks-about-the-card.html" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.sportscollectorsdaily.com/latest/author-talks-about-the-card.html</a>

Picture of Wagner PSA 8 before grading
 

Posted By: <b>davidcycleback</b><p>That's why good provenance is a good thing.