My take on Michael O'Keeffe's book, "The Card"
 

Posted By: <b>peter chao</b><p>JimB,<br /><br />Thanks for pulling out the Hughes quote. As far as I'm concerned it's pretty damning...he's basically saying if it's high quality trimming then it's okay. What kind of criteria is that.<br /><br />Peter

My take on Michael O'Keeffe's book, "The Card"
 

Posted By: <b>Peter Spaeth</b><p>Peter C., anybody can say anything, you as a lawyer should know that. I would prefer to learn more about Mr. Hughes before crediting his statement at face value.

My take on Michael O'Keeffe's book, "The Card"
 

Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Damn, that's hilarious. The power of the slab! Woops, I mean the power of the flip IN the slab!

My take on Michael O'Keeffe's book, "The Card"
 

Posted By: <b>Peter Spaeth</b><p>So Bill Hughes graded the card in 1991 and for the first time has now revealed his opinion 16 years later to Mr. O'Keefe? And by way of answering the obvious question why the hell did you grade it if it was trimmed, he comes up with that bogus explanation? I am not buying yet, sorry.

My take on Michael O'Keeffe's book, "The Card"
 

Posted By: <b>JK</b><p>Perhaps Hughes' reasoning is also the explanation for the numerous hi grade cards slabbed by PSA that collectors around here believe to be trimmed.<br /><br />In other words, give them a nice enough card regardless of who it is, and it will get slabbed even if trimmed. Only the mid and low grade trims will be rejected. What wonderful news for the card doctors out there.

My take on Michael O'Keeffe's book, "The Card"
 

Posted By: <b>shelly jaffe</b><p>I also noticed that Richard mentioned the fact that Bill Heitman also stated that the card was trimmed. For you that have doubts about Huges, I am sure you don't feel that way about Heitman. If you also read the book you find out that McNall knew as well.

My take on Michael O'Keeffe's book, "The Card"
 

Posted By: <b>Peter Spaeth</b><p>What is the basis for his claim? Is it opinion based on seeing the card, or first (or second) hand knowledge?

My take on Michael O'Keeffe's book, "The Card"
 

Posted By: <b>Peter Spaeth</b><p>There is no way PSA would officially support Hughes' reasoning. None.

My take on Michael O'Keeffe's book, "The Card"
 

Posted By: <b>shelly jaffe</b><p>Number 1 Huges worked for Psa and was there number one guy at the time. Number 2 If was no secret to Gretky and McNall then I don't belive it was a sercret to Joe Orlando. If you read the book you will also see that Josh Evans from Lelands was quoted by O'Keeffe that Mastro told him it was trimed.<br /><br />Read the book.

My take on Michael O'Keeffe's book, "The Card"
 

Posted By: <b>ScottIngold</b><p>Wow,<br /><br />I even got a mention in the book on page 193.<br /><br />Just finished it myself. I must say it does make for some interesting history on the card.<br />I also have a hard time ignoring the parts about Josh L. and the aformentioned Hughes regarding it being trimmed.<br /><br />Just to much kinky stuff seems to follow Bill Mastro around for me. I consider myself an honest person and think i made the right choice in avoiding his auctions with all thats been admited to on this forum. As<br />well as what many longtime trusted friends say.<br /><br />To many other place's to spend my hard earned money. I'll stay away from the ones who seem to have the stench of fraud on them.<br /><br />I never gave much thought to the whole ad thing. But the more of this stuff that comes out. The more i see the problem with a company like Mastro paying to advertise to a captive audiance like us. Can all here be objective ? I really don't see how. Human nature is what it is.

My take on Michael O'Keeffe's book, "The Card"
 

Posted By: <b>jeffdrum</b><p>I've never bought a single thing in their auctions and I can say that their advertising on here won't affect my decision to either way. I see it as a non-issue.

My take on Michael O'Keeffe's book, "The Card"
 

Posted By: <b>Peter Spaeth</b><p>Now there is a damning piece of evidence O'Keefe saying Josh Evans told him that Mastro told him. Suppose Bill Mastro did trim the card, why would he tell Josh Evans? And why would Josh Evans first reveal this to O'Keefe?

My take on Michael O'Keeffe's book, "The Card"
 

Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>I think more significant of all is the fact that neither Evans nor Mastro have made any public comment about suing O'Keefe for libel.<br /><br />There's your answer.

My take on Michael O'Keeffe's book, "The Card"
 

Posted By: <b>ScottIngold</b><p>Jeff,<br /><br />If said statements were untrue. Would that mean a suite would be forthcoming ? And if so. Would we even know ?

My take on Michael O'Keeffe's book, "The Card"
 

Posted By: <b>Peter Spaeth</b><p>A suite?

My take on Michael O'Keeffe's book, "The Card"
 

Posted By: <b>Peter Spaeth</b><p>Jeff that doesn't mean anything. Assume Mastro did not trim the card. What are his damages if someone says he did? And did O'Keefe actually say he did, or did O'Keefe report the contents of conversations he had with others who made that claim? Either way, Bill Mastro is best advised to lay low, not stir the pot any further, and let his auctions continue to prosper. This won't hurt him one iota IMHO.

My take on Michael O'Keeffe's book, "The Card"
 

Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>I don't think that Bill Mastro wants to be known as someone who knew the card was trimmed and kept his mouth shut for all these years. That would make him appear as if he cared more about money and his business than the good of the hobby, no? At the very least, wouldn't he make a public statement to dispute what was in the book? I hear crickets coming from the Mastro camp instead.

My take on Michael O'Keeffe's book, "The Card"
 

Posted By: <b>Peter Spaeth</b><p>He has already denied it many times, Jeff, including in an old article by O'Keefe that (I think) is on t206museum.com This is not a case of silence is an admission.<br /><br /><a href="http://www.t206museum.com/page/periodical_19.html" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.t206museum.com/page/periodical_19.html</a>

My take on Michael O'Keeffe's book, "The Card"
 

Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Interesting. So what is the incentive to make up such a story about Bill Mastro?

My take on Michael O'Keeffe's book, "The Card"
 

Posted By: <b>Peter Spaeth</b><p>I cannot comment directly on Mr. O'Keefe's motives, or who might have an interest in a story that puts Mr. Mastro in a negative light, etc. Michael Wentz certainly has pointed out some issues with Mr. O'Keefe's credibility earlier in this thread or perhaps it was on another thread. In any event, I have no idea if the card is trimmed or not, and it may well be, my only point is that one should be careful not to reach conclusions based on inadequate evidence. At this point, I tend to discount the he said she said stuff and find more compelling eyewitness observations of the card and the comments of people with knowledge of historical context who can make reasoned arguments based on the Piedmont back, etc.

My take on Michael O'Keeffe's book, "The Card"
 

Posted By: <b>Joseph</b><p>Elsewhere on this forum, I have posted what I hoped would become a poll about the opinions of <br />the fine folks on this forum on the PSA 8 Gretzky. Please, oh forum leader, turn it into a poll.<br /><br />Anyway, so far NO ONE AMONG THE KNOWLEDGEABLE COLLECTORS here believes the card has not been cut from<br />a sheet and/or trimmed later. Read the book, if you have not, and you'll see how Mastro reacted when the <br />reporter put the question to him for the umpteenth time. <br /><br />

My take on Michael O'Keeffe's book, "The Card"
 

Posted By: <b>JimB</b><p>Peter,<br />I agree with you. Nobody who claims or opines it was trimmed, including Bill Heitman or Bill Hughes have offered actual evidence. They just say that they knew. Either nobody can or nobody is willing to produce actual evidence of anything. <br /><br />Even Ray, the guy who sold it to Mastro won't say where he got it. The sheet story is just a rumor too. No evidence. If he cut it from a sheet, what does he have to lose by saying that now? The lawyers could chime in on his potential liablilty, but I don't think he would be on the hook for that at this point. He did not have PSA encapsulate it. He did not have Sotheby's sell it. And if the rumors are true, he told Mastro that it was cut from a sheet. He seems to be envious that Mastro made so much money off the card. Yet, he sold it to Mastro for more than anybody had ever sold a baseball card for before. If he stole it from an old lady's attic, then I guess there is still reason to be secretive about the source. If this Ray guy is still around, he would seem to be the one who could unravel this mystery. But apparently he feels he has something to lose if he does.<br />JimB

My take on Michael O'Keeffe's book, "The Card"
 

Posted By: <b>shelly jaffe</b><p>I can't belive what I am reading. If you get hit in the head with a bat and you where the only one there does that mean it is not true.<br />Bill Huges saw the card and graded it. He then said it was trimmed. Heitman has held the same card in his hands and said it was trimed. McNall bought the card and said it was trimmed. What in the heck am I missing here. You have to know that this is a great story. This is about a hobbie that seems to deny any thing that might make waves. A week ago you could read how many people question PSA. Now you have the same people saying it can't be true. Make up you minds. The fact is the card is trimmed. Is there anyone that is on this site denying the fact that cards have been sold without telling the customer that they have been fixed. This is like a man who goes to AA and says Im here for the girls.

My take on Michael O'Keeffe's book, "The Card"
 

Posted By: <b>Peter Spaeth</b><p>So we are supposed to take the word of a guy who essentially says he fraudulently graded the card? Oh, OK, sure, why not? But the word of Bill Mastro means nothing? Has Rob Lifson put his reputation on the line to say the card was trimmed? Not to my knowledge. Kind of a risky business plan for PSA, knowingly slabbing a trimmed card to launch their business, don't you think? OH and let me add Michael Wentz's recent statement at least as I understood him to the effect that the supposed "before" photo adds nothing to the case.

My take on Michael O'Keeffe's book, "The Card"
 

Posted By: <b>shelly jaffe</b><p>Pteter,<br />No your not supposed to take the word of one man. I have given you the names of at least four people Huges, Heitman, Evans, and McNall. I think that there names are as important to this situation as that of Mastro. I dont see Mastro comeing on this site and saying it's not true. .<br /> Peter you can name all the names you want but I am talking about the man who graded the card. I am talking about the man who bought the card. If you can get me two people that are closer to the story than they are please have them come on up.If Mastro belives that what is being said is not true where is he? I know that you don't represent him or Psa, or do you?<br />

My take on Michael O'Keeffe's book, "The Card"
 

Posted By: <b>Rich Mueller</b><p>There are, apparently, 12 or 13 T206 cards graded PSA 10. I'm sure there are a few others of similar quality in SGC holders. Does anyone know the origin of any of those cards? Might some be from the infamous Wagner sheet or another? Or just freaks that survived?

My take on Michael O'Keeffe's book, "The Card"
 

Posted By: <b>JimB</b><p>"What in the heck am I missing here."<br /><br />Actual evidence rather than rumor and innuendo. Nobody so far claims they saw it get trimmed. Nobody who saw it before and after is making that claim. The mystery photo is supposedly inconclusive according to Mike Wentz who has seen it. Bruce McNall's opinion is frankly worth nothing to me. He was not a card person. Somebody apparently told him it was trimmed and he believed them. Bill Hughes said he believed it to be trimmed, but he did not say why. Josh Evan's claim in the book about what Bill Mastro said to him is the most damning piece to the puzzle, but it is far from providing any conclusive evidence.<br />JimB

My take on Michael O'Keeffe's book, "The Card"
 

Posted By: <b>Peter Spaeth</b><p>How do you know, other than his say-so, that Bill Hughes is the "one" who graded the card? My guess is that on something so important, and the very first card PSA graded, several people would have been involved.<br /><br />Your approach is interesting -- you take what some people say at face value, yet discount others such as Bill Mastro himself.<br /><br />IF this were a hypothetical proceeding where the presumption was that the card was not trimmed, so far I have not seen enough evidence to overcome that presumption.

My take on Michael O'Keeffe's book, "The Card"
 

Posted By: <b>shelly jaffe</b><p>Where did I miss Bill Mastro saying it's not true. As for McNall not being in the business you are correct. The thing is he bought the card and in doing so he was told of its condition. I dont have to be a doctor to know if I have cancer.

My take on Michael O'Keeffe's book, "The Card"
 

Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>I don't think Mastro saying it's not true necessarily makes it true. Personally I don't know but certainly could not swear it's trimmed....Could you?

My take on Michael O'Keeffe's book, "The Card"
 

Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Would a fairer statement be it's pretty clear it is not factory cut?

My take on Michael O'Keeffe's book, "The Card"
 

Posted By: <b>Peter Spaeth</b><p>This link was provided just a few posts above in this thread. Read it and you will see Mr. Mastro's denial.<br /><br /><a href="http://www.t206museum.com/page/periodical_19.html" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.t206museum.com/page/periodical_19.html</a>

My take on Michael O'Keeffe's book, "The Card"
 

Posted By: <b>shelly jaffe</b><p>Leon<br />I would have to say that I truely belive that this card was trimmed.I was a close friend of Bill Huges at the time the card was graded. He was positive the card was trimmed as well as Bill Heitman. They where partners in a litho company at that time. It was not a secret as many of you out there think. When this card was graded many people in this hobbie knew what said about this card. The reason this is happenng now is because of the book.<br />

My take on Michael O'Keeffe's book, "The Card"
 

Posted By: <b>Peter Spaeth</b><p>Shelly, do you recall what Hughes told you were the reasons for his belief? In other words, was it based on his observation of the card, was it based on things people directly involved had admitted to him, etc. And do you have any thoughts on why he kept his silence until interviewed by O'Keefe? This all would shed some light on the credibility of his claim.

My take on Michael O'Keeffe's book, "The Card"
 

Posted By: <b>shelly jaffe</b><p>Huges stated that the card size was not the same size of that of Piedmont card.It also showed under a microscope that the card was cut differently from all other Piedmonts that he had seen. I asked him why a Piedmont card? He told me that Piedmonts where different in size from Sweet Caparol and other t206 backs. He also stated that the card never saw a pack. <br />You wont belive why I think Bill never said anything but here it is. No one ever asked him about the card untill now. I don't think that anyone of you knew that he was the person who graded it. It took a book to bring out the story. I will tell you this one more time. There where many people that know the story but never said a word. Most of you know about doctoring of cards but I don,t think you tell you customers. Well if no one asked no one told.

My take on Michael O'Keeffe's book, "The Card"
 

Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>In that article Bill Mastro did indeed refute it being trimmed.....So the story goes and there is still no positive proof....and it's in a PSA8 holder (which is neither here nor there)....no proof so far though....

My take on Michael O'Keeffe's book, "The Card"
 

Posted By: <b>Peter Spaeth</b><p>Shelly I have heard for years that Hughes was involved in grading the card. He also said so in something published on the web, let me see if I can find it. Edited to add, here ya go, from 2002.<br /><br /><a href="http://scoop.diamondgalleries.com/scoop_article.asp?ai=921&si=127" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://scoop.diamondgalleries.com/scoop_article.asp?ai=921&si=127</a>

My take on Michael O'Keeffe's book, "The Card"
 

Posted By: <b>shelly jaffe</b><p>Ok so you knew Bill Huges authenticated the card. What does that have to do with what he said about the card. I said most of you did no know that Bill authenticated the card. I belive that the man who graded the card knows what he saw. If Mastro says its not true then that is his side of the story. I belive what Huges and Heitman told me. What reason would these two people have to lie. They gain nothing from it. On the other hand I would say that Mastro does. Leon I stand corrected I didn't see that in the book.<br />This can go on for ever. The only way you will be convinced if the new owner has the guts to let someone else grade the card. I don't see that happening. So we have to belive what we want to belive.

My take on Michael O'Keeffe's book, "The Card"
 

Posted By: <b>Peter Spaeth</b><p>What was Bill Hughes' incentive to knowingly slab a trimmed card for a company whose business plan was to capitalize on a perceived need for third party authentication to prevent rampant fraud in the card industry?

My take on Michael O'Keeffe's book, "The Card"
 

Posted By: <b>shelly jaffe</b><p> You read his quote. He thought he was doing the right thing for the Hobbie. <br />Right or wrong that is what he belived. Why do you think he did it? Why do think that Heitman would say the same thing? Why would Mastro say its not true?

My take on Michael O'Keeffe's book, "The Card"
 

Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Shelly -you say you were a good friend of Bill Hughes but you are certainly putting his head on the chopping block. Did the two of you have a falling out?

My take on Michael O'Keeffe's book, "The Card"
 

Posted By: <b>shelly jaffe</b><p>No. Why am I putting his head on a chopping block. Bill stated in the book what I am saying now. He is a big boy and when he was asked a question he gave an honest answer. I think that Bill did what he thought was the right thing to do at that time. He did what he belived to be the best thing for the hobbie. He said "look what has happened to that card since it was graded"<br />I am not sure if he would do the same thing today. What surprises me the most about all of this. Is that so many people are in denial.

My take on Michael O'Keeffe's book, "The Card"
 

Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Sorry Shelly. I haven't read the book yet. I'm a little behind the curve.<br /><br />Shelly- you may not be able to answer this but do you think everyone who bought the card had the knowledge that it was trimmed? Do you know if the current owner is aware of it?

My take on Michael O'Keeffe's book, "The Card"
 

Posted By: <b>shelly jaffe</b><p>The only people that I know for sure where Gretzky and McNall. I think that Gidwitz found about it. The new owner must be aware of it by now. Like I said it seemed that a lot of people knew of this at the start and then over the years it didn't seem to matter. Now that the book is out the questions about this card are starting over.

My take on Michael O'Keeffe's book, "The Card"
 

Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>You touched on the point of my question. The new owner must know by now, but did he when he purchased the card? That was before the book was published.<br /><br />And while this is merely an aside, it seems to me this card has changed hands quite a few times considering it is the crown jewel of the hobby. Most artifacts of that stature usually remain with their owners for a long time.

My take on Michael O'Keeffe's book, "The Card"
 

Posted By: <b>shelly jaffe</b><p>Money Money Money. Most people knew about this book before the last sale. Mike had been working on it for at least two years. I know that he talked to many people about this book at the Anheim National. I think that was way before the card was sold. I have to say this. Because a painting is hanging in the New York Museum Of Art it does not mean it's authentic. I think if people want to belive in something so much there is no way that they will ever belive its not what it is.

My take on Michael O'Keeffe's book, "The Card"
 

Posted By: <b>Peter Spaeth</b><p>"Mike"? Are you on a first name basis with the author? Do you know him?

My take on Michael O'Keeffe's book, "The Card"
 

Posted By: <b>shelly jaffe</b><p>What would you call him Michael or Mr. I was interveiwed by him just like many of the other people at the nathional. Other than that I have no other dealings with him. I call Bill Mastro Bill not Willaim and I dont know him. What is your point.

My take on Michael O'Keeffe's book, "The Card"
 

Posted By: <b>Peter Spaeth</b><p>Just curious if you had any special insight into the book, that's all, I didn't mean to put you on the defensive.

My take on Michael O'Keeffe's book, "The Card"
 

Posted By: <b>Bottom of the Ninth</b><p>Bill Hughes was only one of four people who, as I understand, were involved in originally "grading" the Wagner. If he gave his approval to assign a grade of NM-MT 8 for a card he knew was trimmed or was able to determine so based on his expertise, then his willingness now to admit this in such a matter of fact manner really needs to be called into question. Unless his admission is now one of expressing regret or remorse and not just flippantly passing along information for the author, how are we to know if he is telling the truth now when he was willing to be so dishonest to begin with?<br /><br />If Shelly knows Bill Hughes so well then he would also know who Bill Hughes' partner was for many years during the 1990's. I knew Bill Hughes many years ago and liked him very much however I am not sure he qualifies for a merit badge in this hobby. <br /><br />I am not making a determination either way on whether the card is trimmed. Only that Bill Hughes now saying so means absolutely nothing. It carries the same weight as the denial of it being trimmed which was made the person who sold it, Bill Mastro.<br /><br />Greg

My take on Michael O'Keeffe's book, "The Card"
 

Posted By: <b>Peter Spaeth</b><p>So the theory is that PSA knowingly launched its business, which was marketed as a counterweight to the then-prevalent fraud being perpetrated by many dealers, by grading a trimmed version of the hobby's Holy Grail. That sure seems a very high risk strategy. Assuming the card was trimmed, and everyone involved in the grading knew it, then how was David Hall to know that conclusive or at least persuasive proof of that fact would not come out? On the other hand, maybe Mr. Hall just rolled the dice as he may not have had a huge capital investment anyhow, just a license fee to Mr. Hager and a slabbing machine.<br /><br />What continues to surprise me is that NONE of the people who supposedly have the infamous "before" photo will break ranks and show it. What would Mr. Mastro's claim against them be, even if he were inclined to make one? Suppose I had the photo and started a thread with a post, "here is a picture Alan Ray sent to me that allegedly shows the Wagner in the condition it was in when he sold it." What am I liable for?

My take on Michael O'Keeffe's book, "The Card"
 

Posted By: <b>MikeU</b><p>"So we are supposed to take the word of a guy who essentially says he fraudulently graded the card? Oh, OK, sure, why not? But the word of Bill Mastro means nothing? Has Rob Lifson put his reputation on the line to say the card was trimmed? Not to my knowledge. Kind of a risky business plan for PSA, knowingly slabbing a trimmed card to launch their business, don't you think? OH and let me add Michael Wentz's recent statement at least as I understood him to the effect that the supposed "before" photo adds nothing to the case."<br /><br />If you dismiss so easily the words of Hughes, Heitman, Leland and McNall, how can you gravitate with certainly towards Mike Wentz's word? Mike's supporting comments of the PSA 8 Wagner can not be trusted, since he is an SGC supporter. <br />

My take on Michael O'Keeffe's book, "The Card"
 

Posted By: <b>Peter Spaeth</b><p>MikeU, my only point is that there are folks on both sides of this and reasons can be found to view each and every one of them with some guarded skepticism. This is going to be settled, if at all, by proof, not hearsay or self-serving statements or innuendo or speculation.

My take on Michael O'Keeffe's book, "The Card"
 

Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Peter makes a good point: a lot of people who have seen the card and are supposedly in the "know" claim it's trimmed - yet why doesn't anyone show the before photo? Wouldn't that settle this? What is the downside to them?

My take on Michael O'Keeffe's book, "The Card"
 

Posted By: <b>Peter Spaeth</b><p>Jeff, hell if I know. I cannot imagine it would be the basis for any viable lawsuit unless it were accompanied by direct accusations, and even then, where is the damage? It's a frickin' picture of a baseball card, it's not like publishing a secret nude photo of somebody.

My take on Michael O'Keeffe's book, "The Card"
 

Posted By: <b>dennis</b><p>imo a photo would probably prove nothing,now a b4 and after scan.or a video of the actual trimming,that would be better. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

My take on Michael O'Keeffe's book, "The Card"
 

Posted By: <b>shelly jaffe</b><p>His partner was Mervin Lee. Like I have said before the only way to make sure is if they have the card graded again by someone other than Psa. If Mastro thinks that everyone is lying about this card .. He should have no problem in trying to convince the new owner to do just that. It sure would make all those people who have said the card was trimmed look bad. I also believe it would send the price of that card further through the roof. Of course if it is true I think it would be very costly to the new owner.Until that happens I guess there will be those that say yes and those that say no. <br />As to the picture. Peter you answered your own question. You have stated that the picture allegedly is that of the Wagner. You would then have six hundred more messages say how do we know that is the card. Its not clear enough, its been doctored when was it taken a etc. I will tell you again that I believe the people that graded and bought that card. You can believe who you want. Oh he also had a partner whose last name was Applebaum. They ran a card shop in Lido Island. I hope that cover his partners beside Heitman who was in the litho business with him. Is that correct bottom of the ninth.

My take on Michael O'Keeffe's book, "The Card"
 

Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Shelly, do you actually think that the owner of the card would take a chance to have SGC say it's trimmed - knowing that SGC would just love to say that and hurt PSA? The upside would be that the card would go for twenty cents more in an auction next week. The downside is that they owner loses 7 figures. Sounds like a plan!<br /><br />And furthermore: if I owned the card, why would I give a damn if a bunch of yentas said that it was trimmed? People have been saying this for years and it hasn't impacted the value of the card.

My take on Michael O'Keeffe's book, "The Card"
 

Posted By: <b>Peter Spaeth</b><p>Another way would be to buy it and then attempt to consign it to REA. Since Rob won't accept altered items, if he refuses to sell it, you would have your answer. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br />Shelly, to answer your point it is difficult for me to know who to believe. I would like to hear more from/about Mr. Heitman about the basis for his opinion. It is interesting that no one has commented yet about the reasons Mr. Hughes gave you for his opinion relating to the size of the card, I don't profess to be an expert but I would think there are plenty of folks on this board who could comment about the size of Piedmonts vs. Sweet Caps. I was only aware that American Beauty backs tend to be skinny.

My take on Michael O'Keeffe's book, "The Card"
 

Posted By: <b>shelly jaffe</b><p>Jeff I agree with you 100%. I was saying that this is only way anyone can settel this arguement and that its never going to happen. In regards to the size of the card Heitman would have to come on here and explain.

My take on Michael O'Keeffe's book, "The Card"
 

Posted By: <b>MikeU</b><p>"And furthermore: if I owned the card, why would I give a damn if a bunch of yentas said that it was trimmed? People have been saying this for years and it hasn't impacted the value of the card."<br /><br />The truth regarding the trim will probably never effect the card value a great deal. However, I think that there are a few individuals that the truth would effect their credibility with a very select group of people. The fact that the card value will not go down after the truth is public, will be the silver bullet that is used when ones credibility is questioned e.g. no harm was really ever done. <br />

My take on Michael O'Keeffe's book, "The Card"
 

Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Mike, true - but the truth will only hurt the owner of the card which is why he's not even thinking of these issues.

My take on Michael O'Keeffe's book, "The Card"
 

Posted By: <b>shelly jaffe</b><p>I asked this question on another link a recived no answere. Is it possible to grade a card that is slabed. I am only looking at the borders and size. Is this possible.

My take on Michael O'Keeffe's book, "The Card"
 

Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>I answered it on the other thread.

My take on Michael O'Keeffe's book, "The Card"
 

Posted By: <b>shelly jaffe</b><p>Thanks

My take on Michael O'Keeffe's book, "The Card"
 

Posted By: <b>Larry</b><p>The new owner of this card is probably saavy enough that he will be protected no matter what. PSA will have to guarantee the card and the dollars, and this "deal" was orchestrated & completed with PSA's assistance. Mr. Orlando in particular probably knows the specifics. There is NO doubt, the new owner completed his top 200 card collection as a result of this acquisition, whether trimmed or not, the value is in the history of the card, and PSA's warranty is most definately in play for this scenario.<br /><br />The new owner will do well and is very smart not to reveal his identity, it adds to the mystique.

My take on Michael O'Keeffe's book, "The Card"
 

Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>The new owner might well be reading these posts laughing his ass off.

My take on Michael O'Keeffe's book, "The Card"
 

Posted By: <b>shelly jaffe</b><p>Jeff if you where the new owner would you be laughing you ass off. <br />If I bought a great piece of art and now someone is telling me it might not be what be what it was stated to be. I dont think for two and a half million dollars I would be laughing. I really don't think that owner of this card is so happy at this moment. I might be wrong but i belive in the next few months you might find out that the s--t might hit the fan.

My take on Michael O'Keeffe's book, "The Card"
 

Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>My understanding is that SCP is minority owner in the card now. They are a banner advertiser on this board as having an association with Sothebys.....Next time the card sells it will sell for more than it did this time. If the prevailing idea that it was handcut from a sheet is true the value of the card shouldn't take a hit, imo.....but who knows??

My take on Michael O'Keeffe's book, "The Card"
 

Posted By: <b>dennis</b><p>the new owner is a collector. he has heard all this stuff before,this talk is nothing new. someone who pays this kind of money is no fool. when and if he sells this card he will make his money back and a lot more.

My take on Michael O'Keeffe's book, "The Card"
 

Posted By: <b>shelly jaffe</b><p>The end.

My take on Michael O'Keeffe's book, "The Card"
 

Posted By: <b>sagard</b><p>Well I won a copy via Ebay. So I guess I'll find out the fuss first hand. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br />My opinion is that it doesn't really matter anymore how this card came about. SGC would slap an "8/88" on that thing in a heartbeat if given the chance. GAI would fire it into a comfy 8.5.<br /><br />

My take on Michael O'Keeffe's book, "The Card"
 

Posted By: <b>MikeU</b><p>I finally got around to reading my copy. I will be a contrarian and say I enjoyed the book. However, I do not think it is a healthy introduction to the hobby for newcomers or the casual observer and will likely hinder, to some extent, new hobby growth. <br /><br /><br />Some more interesting quotes from the book that I have not seen posted (DANGER EXPLICT LANGUAGE):<br /><br />Pg 80 First Paragraph:<br /><br />Lifson agreed that the card wasn’t cut properly. Sevchuk had told them at the Hicksville shop that it had come from a sheet. He remembered calling Sevchuk later from his parents’ house to ask if there were more sheets where this one had come from – Sevchuk had said in the store that day there might be. “It had an odd shape,” Lifson said of The Card. “It was obvious that card had never been in a pack of cigarettes. I’ve always been adamant about that. They said it was in a sheet. Otherwise, cards don’t survive like that.”<br /><br /> Pg. 86 last paragraph and 87 1-3 Paragraphs:<br /><br />“Look, McNall was saying, what the ****? The card is trimmed? Sotheby’s was the agent – they didn’t know,” Evans said. “Copeland was the guy that bought the card from Mastro. Mastro set all this up. He had to take care of it. He had to prove it was not trimmed and get it graded,” said Evans. <br /><br />Fortunately for Mastro, one of the first graders hired by PSA was Bill Hughes. Mastro and Hughes had known each other for years. Hughes was a well-known card and memorabilia dealer with weekly ads in Sports Card Digest, a visible face on the card-show circuit. <br /><br />Evans even speculates that Mastro had a hand in picking Hughes to grade it. “I can hear him saying it now: I don’t want no ****ing talk about that card being trimmed. I want it to be ****ing authentic.” <br /><br />Pg. 112 paragraph 3 and 4. <br /><br />Still, not everyone was convinced. A few weeks after the card was graded, Mike Gutierrez, a consultant for McNall’s Superior Galleries, told the Chicago Tribune that he had some problems with the card. Regardless of PSA’s opinion, The Card had been altered, he said. Gutierrez didn’t know about the dealings between Mastro and Ray at the Hicksville store, but he knew by examining the card for McNall that it didn’t look right. “The card was definitely cut at some point,” Gutierrez said. “I don’t know when it was cut, or by whom, but it sure was. I have not doubt.” <br /><br />Pg. 137 paragraph 2<br /><br />Gidwitz may seem quirky, but he is a sophisticated collector. Gidwitz knew all the rumors about The Cards flaws and, based on his experience as a collector, suspected it had been trimmed. “It never came up,” insists Lifson, of whether Gidwitz would have even cared. “It just didn’t matter.” <br /><br />Pg. 139 paragraph 2<br /><br />“I want to make it clear,” he said. “Do you understand? It really ****ing irritates me. I want to make it perfectly clear who sold the Honus Wagner card. It was me and Rob. <br /><br />Pg. 184 paragraph 2<br /><br />Lifson is convinced that his cleanup campaign is the only way the collectibles industry can right itself and survive. There is too much graft, too much fraud, too much money being changed in too few hands to think otherwise. Lifson put what is going on in simple terms. “It’s called stealing,” he said. <br /><br />Pg. 195 and 196:<br /><br />Hughes’s confession didn’t shock hobby old-timers. Josh Evans, Bill Mastro’s long-standing rival, said Mastro told him several times that he had trimmed the card to make it the best card in the history of the hobby. “The first time he said it, was at a show after it sold for $110,000 to Copeland,” Evans remembered. “I said, how could you trim a card like that? He said, what’s wrong with that? It was oversized. I said, it doesn’t matter. You still have to tell the people who bought it. It was always an interesting topic of conversation. We also talked about it after Gretzky bought it.” <br /><br /><br />

My take on Michael O'Keeffe's book, "The Card"
 

Posted By: <b>boxingcardman</b><p>Either they are false quotes (in which case I would expect fervent denials from the alleged speakers followed by defamation actions) or they are accurate, in which case they present a pretty damning case against the card having been issued 100 years ago in its present form. Add to that Hughes's saying that he thought the card was trimmed when he examined it for PSA but authenticated it anyhow for the good of the hobby (aka the good of PSA) and I think it more likely than not that the card was cut from a sheet in recent times and trimmed and encapsulated with PSA knowingly included in the conspiracy to make the card the #1 card in the hobby. <br /><br />All of that of course means nothing if PSA stands behind it financially. Like stocks, the issue is less what the card is "worth" than what the perception of the card (company) is within a small group of wealthy men (institutional investors) and their advisors and confidants. I remember when Gidwitz bought it and said that the card was a better investment then (with the Gretzky-McNall cachet) than it had been when Gretzky and McNall purchased it. He was right--perception is everything.

My take on Michael O'Keeffe's book, "The Card"
 

Posted By: <b>Frank Evanov</b><p>While Mastro is taking a licking here, his silence is indeed deafening. <br /><br />Rob L. comes off pretty much unscathed, even though he was present the day of the sale and he did provide the financing.<br /><br />Again, considering his falling out with Mastro, you would think Rob would say something more definitive about this mess.<br /><br />Then again, since the authors inexplicably printed several of the Lifson long-winded mass e-mails about being an honest auctioneer, I almost get the feeling that REA sponsored this book and I expected to see one of their buy ads on the back cover! <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br><br>Frank

My take on Michael O'Keeffe's book, "The Card"
 

Posted By: <b>Joann</b><p>Mike,<br /><br />I am about half way through it, and last night I hit page 80 and beyond. I thought as I was reading of the things I'd like to excerpt, especially from pages 80-87. Looks like you earmarked the same areas that I thought were pretty compelling.<br /><br />My take at about halfway or so:<br /><br />I think it's pretty convincing. Although many here say it's nothing new and we've all heard it before, in this case key things have been said for the record. Having some of these guys quoted specifically for the purpose of publication is a whole lot different than hearing on boards or whatever that someone heard that so-and-so told so-and-so such-and-such. It is certainly carrying a lot more weight for me to see these statements in writing and at least appearing to have been made with knowledge of this publication.<br /><br />Also, whether this is all rehash or not it is very helpful to see all of the loose ends brought together in one place and presented as a part of a unified whole.<br /><br />All in all, I think it is adding a lot not only to my knowledge of the events but also to my opinion and perception. Maybe I'm just naive, but so far I'm buying it hook, line and sinker despite the occasaional toe stubs on not getting each fact about each vintage set exactly right. I haven't reached the part about Cobb and Edwards yet, and at that point I may decide it's all grandstanding. <br /><br />But so far it is a very light and easy read, and that's just what the doctor ordered. Plus interesting and, in my opinion, enlightening.<br /><br />(Oh, and somewhere in that page 80-87 range he addresses the existence of "before" photos, and why they don't see the light of day and aren't published. Not sure if that's all locktight in terms of accuracy, but at least it's addressed.)<br /><br />Joann

My take on Michael O'Keeffe's book, "The Card"
 

Posted By: <b>Rich Mcg</b><p>Long time follower of the board and certainly in the camp of "boy prices have gotten just ridiculous". Read it this morning in a few hours. Easy ready because we all know the names, the card and the game.<br /><br />Despite a couple of missed facts on the members of certain sets, the story seems sound. Interesting to see quotes from this group. Nice job Jay. <br /><br />After the posts over the last couple of months, where do we stand on the level of 'doctoring' in this industry? If a Mantle or Ruth is worth 500 or 1,000, that may not bring the doctors out of the woodwork. If the card goes for $100,000 and no one has a clue of where it has come from. That sounds like it is ripe for grifters everywhere.<br /><br />I don't claim to have any evidence or thoughts one way or another but at some point you have to wonder where the 6-8's T206's are popping up from. And not knowing where they came from makes you wonder why authentic (but trimmed) lots are selling for a significant amount if it is such a damnation in this industry. <br /><br />Rich

My take on Michael O'Keeffe's book, "The Card"
 

Posted By: <b>Bottom of the Ninth</b><p>Page #88<br /> <br />"I sat at a table with Bill (Hughes) & Mervin (Lee) at a show in Long Beach in the early 90's, and Mervin showed me cards he doctored" said Shelly Jaffe, the veteran sports collectibles dealer who was arrested during Operation Bullpen an FBI investigation into forged autographs & counterfeit memorabilia.<br /><br />Greg<br /><br /><br />

My take on Michael O'Keeffe's book, "The Card"
 

Posted By: <b>Adam</b><p>I thought the book was an enjoyable read. I find it very interesting that there seem to be 5 or so "before" pictures out there that some people appear to have. Why on earth doesn't one of those people pull one out and show it to the world? That evidence would potentially clear up a lot. <br /><br />Also, as to those two gentlemen who own a Wagner that they claim is authentic -- I always thought no grader would allow them to be present when a grader looked at it (thus why they didn't want to gave it to a grading company) . . . but based on the book there actually was a grading company that did let them be present when it was being graded and they found it not to be legit. Well I think that case is closed then.

My take on Michael O'Keeffe's book, "The Card"
 

Posted By: <b>Dan Markel</b><p>Reading the quotes pertaining that Bill Hughes claiming that he graded or was present for the grading of the Wagner seems to conflict with what I've known about PSA in the early days.<br /><br />I believe it is common knowledge that the Wagner was the first card graded by PSA. In this article pertaining to the 10th anniversary of PSA, the following statements are made:<br /><br />Joe Orlando (then publisher of the SMR): "What was it like at the start?"<br /><br />Steve Rocchi: "There were only three of us. Mike Baker, who is now the director if grading, Adam, and myself. We were lucky to get 400-500 cards per month. It took a few years to gain support from the dealers; resistance to grading was commonplace."<br /><br />There is no mention of Bill Hughes.<br /><br />Link to article:<br /><br /><a href="http://www.psacard.com/articles/article_view.chtml?artid=3004&universeid=314&type= 1" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.psacard.com/articles/article_view.chtml?artid=3004&universeid=314&type= 1</a>