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Posted By: <b>Frank Evanov</b><p>Barry: "Wouldn't it be easier and cleaner to simply submit cards to the grading services as they are received and do nothing to them?"<br /><br />Every company in business looks to maximize earnings....easier and cleaner? yes.... business smart? no!<br /><br />Dan, concerning "undetectable alterations"... over the years I have seen wrinkles, stains and creases re-appear in high-end holders, so there is the time factor as well.<br /><br />Jim...good to see you back!<br /><br><br>Frank
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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Frank- I look to maximize earnings too...and if I decided to rob a bank, my net income would increase considerably.
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Posted By: <b>Cobby33</b><p>So long as there are folks who will pay BIG $$ for high-grade material, these practices will continue, it's that simple. Once the demand for these cards decrease (due to lack of confidence on the restoration/grading processes, or whatever), these processes will stop, as there will be no incentive to do so. Right now, the guidelines are so vague, that people can make these "alterations" with a straight face.
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Posted By: <b>warshawlaw</b><p>Perhaps the world has tilted off its axis <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br />"I think the grading companies need to invest the time and effort to be able to detect everything--perhaps as Only Child says--bring a card doctor on staff."<br /><br />That is exactly what casinos do--they hire card counters, mechanics and cheats to work the eye in the sky to look for other cheats. Even the FBI does--anyone seen "Catch Me If You Can"? No one knows the anatomy of cheating better than a qualified cheater in the same field.
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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>You guys aren't getting it: PSA, et al. will never spend extra money to detect trimming and alterations unless they are SURE it will generate more income for them. And until they see a drop in revenue due to their failure to detect trimming and alterations, business as usual will be the theme.
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Posted By: <b>Dan Bretta</b><p>If PSA put a card doctor on staff to detect alterations their business would drop off signifigantly.<br /><br />
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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Jeff- if any kind of big scandal breaks and PSA is found to be a participant in any number of unethical or unprofessional practices (and I could cite many examples) their business is not going to be worth all that much. They need to balance revenue with offering the proper service, and at the same time to stay squeaky clean. It can't be the wild west in Newport Beach. That won't last long, and it will eventually catch up with them.
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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Somehow I don't think PSA is all that concerned about scandal, etc. Their untoward relationship with Memory Lane is case in point.
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Posted By: <b>Kevin Saucier</b><p>Not all inclusive but here are cards deemed un-gradeable by PSA (taken from their site). Unless they plan to change the rules, this should eliminate all the the arguement if wrinkle / crease removal is considered altering. It's in black in white on PSA's card grading standards page. Please note item N-5.<br /><br />____________________<br /><br />NO GRADE DEFINITIONS <br />If the grade of your card is available and is listed with one of the following grades, this card was determined to be un-gradable for the following reasons. <br /><br /><br />N-1 Evidence of Trimming - When a card’s edge has been altered, a card doctor may use scissors, scalpel, cutter, or any other cutting instrument. A trimmed card may show one of the following: Hook up or down, have one razor sharp edge, a difference in toning along the edge, a wavy look.<br /> <br />N-2 Evidence of Restoration - When a card’s paper stock is built up - for example, when ripped corners are built up to look like new corners.<br /> <br />N-3 Evidence of Recoloration - Where a card’s color has been artificially improved. <br /><br />N-4 Questionable Authenticity - This is the term used when a card is counterfeit.<br /><br />N-5 Altered Stock - This term is used when the paper stock is altered in one or more of the following ways: Stretching and trimming, recoloring and restoring, trimming and recoloring, restoring an trimming, crease or wrinkle is pressed out, or gloss is enhanced.<br /><br />_______________________<br /><br /><br />Is it considered altering when it can't be detected. IMO it is when you say your doing it. Why don't we just call a spade a spade?<br /><br /><br />Kevin Saucier<br />
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Posted By: <b>Peter Spaeth</b><p>You are right, and this was pointed out to Doug when the topic was raised last time by Jim C. I don't recall his response, if he in fact made one.
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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>PSA is worried about their bottom line. A scandal has an amazing ability to compromise that bottom line (only speaking hypothetically, of course).
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Posted By: <b>Peter Spaeth</b><p>My review of the prior thread suggests there was no direct response to the apparent conflict between item N-5 and Mastro Auctions' definition of acceptable "preparation" that need not be disclosed -- although I read it relatively quickly just now. Perhaps we can get some clarification this time around?
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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>You said <br /><br />"Is it considered altering when it can't be detected. IMO it is when you say your doing it. Why don't we just call a spade a spade?"<br /><br /><br />So does that mean if someone doesn't say anything and they are altering a card it's ok? <br /><br /> For the record I still don't have a problem with the first tier "restoration" that Dave Forman spoke about on the board before. If I recall correctly he wouldn't endorse any of it but said if they can't detect it....well, they can't detect it...and he considered the first tier much less offensive then the 2nd or 3rd tiers...which everyone feels is wrong....regards<br />
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Posted By: <b>Sean C</b><p>I don't care whether it's an attempt to remove a wrinkle or wholesale whitening of a card: to do so and offer it for sale without proper disclosure is wrong. While altered cards have a place in the market, they just need to be properly identified as such.
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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Of course you can sometimes sell a card that has been altered but you are not aware of it. Then if the crease magically reappears down the road you can get blamed for it too.
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Posted By: <b>Kevin Saucier</b><p>Here is SGC's partial take on the subject (again, taken from their site).<br /><br />SGC Rejection Codes: <br />Code Description Tag <br />A Altered ALT <br />B Bleached BLE <br />C Color Added COL <br />E Power Erased ERA <br />G Minimum Graded Not Met MIN <br />L Too Large to Holder (Oversized) LRG <br />N Miscut MIS <br />M Cannot/Do Not Grade NO <br />P Pressed PRS<br /><br />____________<br /><br />For the record, my personal opinion on what is or is not acceptable is irrelevant. I'm just showing what the written standards are verses what is being openly admitted. Kudo’s to Doug for saying what is being done.<br /><br />For what it's worth I really enjoy the flamboyant auction descriptions. I find them very entertaining and try to read each one regardless of what is being sold.<br /><br />Oh...hey there Jim!<br /><br /><br />Kevin Saucier <br /><br />
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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Kevin, what is being done by Doug? Maybe I missed something.<br /><br />For the umpteenth time, all we want to know is will Mastro disclose if they have done any work -- any work at all -- on a card after receiving it from a consignor and prior to sale in their auctions?<br /><br />Now I know Doug will come back and try to define 'work' for us.
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Posted By: <b>T206Collector</b><p>Grading companies (at least SGC) will enforce the community standard for pre-war card review. If you want to change the standard, then your beef is with your favorite grading company. If the standard is an attempt to enforce a moral code of undetectable crimes, then you have gotten much further than any civilized society I am aware of in terms of its statutory laws. If you stick with the detectable crimes, supported by a money-backed guarantee, that's as good as it will ever get -- even if you create a collector's society of purity police. Because, at the end of the day, the purity police will have to convince the grading company that its standards need to change; and the only standards that will be enforceable with any level of consistency will be those alterations that are detectable with any level of consistency. <br /><br />The problem I have with these kinds of threads is that the temptation is to rehash all of the previous polls and debates about what the community standard is and should be for various forms of card doctoring -- from gunk removal and erasing pencil marks to spooning wrinkles, recoloring and adding paper, the views of the community are not uniform and the passions for and against such practices are widespread and heartfelt. It is absolutely vital to understand the standards applied by your favorite grading company to the cards it reviews. If you are uncomfortable, then you need either a new grading company or to have your grading company change its standards to meet your needs. <br /><br />
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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Hey Kevin(my hero),<br /><br />How can you give Kudos to Mastronet for openly admitting to altering cards and trying to get them graded by PSA in direct violation of PSAs standards?<br /><br />It is of course preferable if Mastronet would cease and desist from altering cards at all but given the choice of taking creases out of cards and not telling anyone(their prior practice) and taking creases out and disclosing it, I would take the latter course every time.<br /><br />Jim<br /><br /><br /><br />
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Posted By: <b>Kevin Saucier</b><p>Kudo's was only given because he has the guts to say it in an open forum.<br /><br /><"What is being done by Doug?"> Just using Doug as a reference link to Mastronet.<br /><br /><br /><"the views of the community are not uniform and the passions for and against such practices are widespread and heartfelt. It is absolutely vital to understand the standards applied by your favorite grading company to the cards it reviews. If you are uncomfortable, then you need either a new grading company or to have your grading company change its standards to meet your needs."><br /><br /><br />Well said!
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Posted By: <b>shane</b><p>for coming on these boards to discuss ideas and changes with all of us. I for one really like the descriptive writings and appreciate a more detailed listing of conditions for the cards up for auction. I have bought many items from you over the past 4 years and think that your guys have done an excellent job. <br />Thanks again for coming on Network54.<br /><br />Shane Leonard
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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Kevin, Doug had the guts to admit that Mastro alters cards -- that took guts? Wouldn't it be braver to simply promise to stop doing it?
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Posted By: <b>T206Collector</b><p>"Kevin, Doug had the guts to admit that Mastro alters cards -- that took guts? Wouldn't it be braver to simply promise to stop doing it?"<br /><br />Not when the definition of permissible alteration is not uniform. It is better when there is no universally accepted standard of all alterations to disclose what alterations were done and let the prospective buyers decide if they care than an SGC 60 was once glued in a scrapbook.<br /><br />And Doug most certainly deserves credit for discussing these issues in a public forum, especially when these issues have passionate advocates from numerous and various conflicting perspectives.
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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>Maybe this is the wrong hobby for you? It's sort of like saying....ok, do you promise never to go 56mph in a 55mph zone again? And yes, to me, it's that amount of an issue with stuff that can't be seen or detected...and I am not talking about removing major creases...I am talking about insignificant crap on a card being taken off so it looks better...Again, I suggest you find a different hobby if you thing it's ever going to be fully disclosed...........Every person I talk to that has been in the hobby 20 yrs or more knows it's always gone on and always will.....I mainly collect gd-vg cards so it's really not that big of a deal. I would be more attacking the grading companies if I were you. They are the ones not catching the things that can't be detected ><img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>....best regards
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Posted By: <b>Peter Spaeth</b><p>Paul, I agree, the very problem arises from the lack of consensus as to definition. But I would like to hear an explanation of why Mastro Auctions considers it acceptable to press out a wrinkle/crease and PSA does not. EDITED TO ADD It seems to me if that is the case, then pressing out a wrinkle, trying to get PSA to grade it, and not disclosing it, could be considered deceptive.
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Posted By: <b>Sean C</b><p>Do you think it's proper for an auction company to work on or perform an alteration on a card, then not disclose it to potential bidders?
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Posted By: <b>T206Collector</b><p>"I would like to hear an explanation of why Mastro Auctions considers it acceptable to press out a wrinkle/crease and PSA does not."<br /><br />I think that is a fair question, but I would like to know more about the specific processes that are used to press wrinkles. Spooning a card is one thing (in my own opinion, bad and easily detectable), but soaking gunk off the back of a card and then pressing it in the middle of a dictionary to keep it from warping during the drying process is another. The latter can sometimes moderately improve the appearance of wrinkles -- and would be undetectable and not enforceable by PSA, notwithstanding their general statements against it. Again, I think questions should be asked with specific examples in mind. <br /><br />But, to me, if you buy an SGC graded card in a Mastro auction, what Mastro did to the card before SGC got its hands on it is not particularly relevant to me; though Doug's money-backed guarantee is another arrow in the quiver (along with SGC's guarantee) of potential future restitution.<br /><br />
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Posted By: <b>shane</b><p>It does take some serious stones to come on these boards to discuss your business practices, especially knowing that you are going to get *******s, lawyers, judges, deadbeats and bottom feeders grilling you. Doug has come out and said what Mastro believes and does. If you got a problem, don't bid in their auctions. <br />Pressing down a wrinkle is something that is going to be done for centuries to come. You can't stop it and you can't detect it. <br />Actually, you can detect it if you do it wrong and mash the card with too much pressure.
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Posted By: <b>Peter Spaeth</b><p>I continue to doubt the permanence of these supposedly undetectable changes. I have seen Cracker Jacks warp significantly inside their slabs -- obviously even though they may have "dried" flat they did not retain their shape. I have seen corner flips that either reappeared or were missed the first time -- the latter I consider unlikely. I have also seen wrinkles on cards graded 7 or higher although who can say if they reappeared or just were missed during the grading process -- including a PSA 7 T205 Matty that had prominent wrinkles if you held it at the right angle.
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Posted By: <b>Peter Spaeth</b><p>I would like to hear Joe Orlando or Dave Forman or Mike Baker state that they have no problem with a submitter taking out a wrinkle as long as they do it so it leaves no detectable trace. Somehow I don't think they will take that position.
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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>If it were only pressing down a corner.<br /><br />What about that Keeler cabinet?
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Posted By: <b>T206Collector</b><p>"I continue to doubt the permanence of these supposedly undetectable changes."<br /><br />I, of course, mean undetectable at the time of grading. As for future detectability, that's the beauty of SGC's (and now Mastro's) money backed guarantee. If you show them an SGC 60 with a wrinkle that should've been a 40, they will comp you the difference. So, you are protected against that initially undetectable wrinkle. <br /><br />
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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>I have stated my answer several times. I DON'T have a problem with first level restorations...ie, gunk removal, pencil removal, very slight surface wrinkle removal etc. I don't care if they do it and I don't care if they tell me... Does that answer your question? (I am sure you disagree but I tried to be specific and answer honestly)<br />thanks<br />leon
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Posted By: <b>Peter Spaeth</b><p>Paul, that's beautiful (coming from Mastro), we guarantee the permanence of our "improvements."
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Posted By: <b>T206Collector</b><p>"I would like to hear Joe Orlando or Dave Forman or Mike Baker state that they have no problem with a submitter taking out a wrinkle as long as they do it so it leaves no detectable trace. Somehow I don't think they will take that position."<br /><br />You are missing the point and confusing the issue. The point is not what the MORAL standard SHOULD be. The point is what the enforceable, gradeable standard CAN CONSISTENTLY be. They can say whatever they want to say about moral standards, but those are quite irrelevant.<br />
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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>I personally think it was a mistake to do the things that were done to the Keeler card and not disclose it. Mistakes happen...I think that was one of the things that started this whole debate. For those that haven't made a mistake please step forward (as everyone except the guy on the end takes one step back <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>)<br />regards
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Posted By: <b>Peter Spaeth</b><p>I am glad morals are irrelevant. That is refreshing. I don't mean to be flip, I know what you are saying Paul and we have had that discussion before. But it is disturbing to hear it stated so bluntly.
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Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>Doug, what you feel are attacks on you are legitimate questions. You continue to use double-speak and avoid giving clear and concise answers. When you sift thru everything, the main question that pretty much everyone wants to know is, "Since you consider spooning and other things to be OK, will this be noted in your auction descriptions, or, since you do not feel these are alterations, will this type of work be omitted from the description?"<br /><br />That's pretty much what all of this boils down to right now, and I'd love to know the answer too. I don't care about a money back policy, etc. I, and others, want a clear and concise answer to this question.<br /><br />Jay<br><br>I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.
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Posted By: <b>Sean C</b><p>I understand that you are ok with "1st tier" alterations. My question asks if you are ok with auction houses not disclosing to their potential bidders that such alterations (or worse) have been performed on the item being offered for sale.
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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>You asked 2 questions and I have 2 different answers. Had you not put in (worse) then I would have had one answer...but putting that in I have another. Let me try this.<br /><br />I don't care if anyone tells me they have done an undectable, 1st tier, alteration to a card I am buying. If they do worse then yes, I do want to know.<br /><br />Jay B- When did Doug ever say they spoon out cards? Also, when was the last time you started a good, positive, thread on this board. If you truly want to make it better then why don't you contribute positive stuff and new, good threads? I am not trying to be mean or anything and think you act very civil....just a couple questions. Also, thanks for the help on the hijacking stuff...I tend to lean your way on my feelings but don't think it's a major problem...actually I think it's very minor but to each their own....<br />regards<br />leon
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Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>Morals and ethics are what keep me from being a truly successful businessman. They get in the way and keep me from doing those despicable things you need to do in order to succeed. So I'm content to live the life I do, knowing that I try to live an ethical life, in all aspects of my life, not just when it's convenient or won't get in the way of making me more money.<br /><br />The world would be a much better place if everyone lived this way, but sadly, money makes people do stupid things.<br /><br />Jay<br><br>I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.
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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Jay and Jeff have hit the nail right on the head. Doug comes on the board and postures and refuses to answer the legitimate questions.<br /><br />He obviously knows what PSA standards are as he has submitted more cards to them than any other grading service yet he admits to taking creases out of cards to presumably sneak them by PSA, thus violating their standards with out disclosing publicly what he or his employees have done to the cards.<br /><br />Given what Rob Lifson has said and Doug's outright refusal to discuss what he has already admitted to, I am surprised that more collectors aren't up in arms about this. <br /><br />I have heard from several collectors who refuse to bid in Memory Lane's auctions for example but I have only heard of a few who have expressed reservations about bidding in Mastronet auctions.<br /><br />Jim
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Posted By: <b>T206Collector</b><p>You call it blunt, I call it keeping it simple. For me, the issue is always one of "How am I personally harmed by purchasing one of these cards?" The answer will always be that the value will go down if the alteration is detected. Thus, I want to know that I will get the difference in the price I paid and the ultimate value back from either Mastro (who sold it) or SGC (who graded it). Since they both will give me my value back, there is no harm to me economically or otherwise. <br /><br />Morality is not irrelevant. When it comes to identifying a universal standard of card grading, we should stick to identifying provable facts before we even begin to contemplate how everyone should feel about those facts. But, to be sure, morality is already at play in card grading. Indeed, the universal distaste for recoloring cards or adding paper to cards is based in moralilty. And though I could write a thesis about "Morality in Card Grading," I'd rather just make sure that I bought what I thought I bought -- and if not then I can have a do-over. <br /> <br />
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Posted By: <b>T206Collector</b><p>"I have heard from several collectors who refuse to bid in Memory Lane's auctions for example but I have only heard of a few who have expressed reservations about bidding in Mastronet auctions."<br /><br />Mastro's got better cards... (-:<br />
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Posted By: <b>T206Collector</b><p>"Morals and ethics are what keep me from being a truly successful businessman."<br /><br />Do you really believe that you cannot be morally and ethically sound AND be a good businessman who makes lots of money?
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Posted By: <b>Richard</b><p>When did "surface wrinkle removal" become a first tier alteration / restoration?<br /><br />I always thought that pressing out a wrinkle is more of a severe alteration than, say, pencil erasing.<br /><br />
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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Richard,<br /><br />Taking out a crease is a significant alteration--don't let the anyone make you think otherwise.<br /><br />I understand it is harder for pre-war collectors to boycott Mastro's autions than Memory Lane as they have much more prewar merchandise. Also many on this board consign to Mastro so they are truly torn--not wanting to kill the goose that laid the golden egg.<br /><br />
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Posted By: <b>T206Collector</b><p>"Taking out a crease is a significant alteration--don't let the anyone make you think otherwise."<br /><br />No one is "making" him think otherwise. Leon is expressing his opinion, as you are expressing yours. The fact that there are so many opinions on these issues is what makes them so provocative. <br />
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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Paul nailed it -- Mastro has better cards: that's why anyone deals with them.<br /><br />And while Jay can be a curmudgeon I honestly don't think he's been overly harsh on Doug. And I know it's self-serving but I haven't either. I spend a lot of cash with Mastro -- am I not entitled to a single freaking answer to a single freaking question? Or am I just some schmuck who is here to be fleeced? What other business other than the auction business would a consumer be ignored and BSed as much?
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Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>I've had 4 different businesses. One just never took off, the other 3 could have done really well but I lacked, or I should say, had to strong of ethics, to do the things necessary in order to take the business to the next level. Unlike many people, I lack to ability to stab my mother in back to make a buck.<br /><br />Yes, there are people that have been a success holding to strong morals and ethics, but they are the absolute exception and I doubt anyone would say that they should be used as a business model if you want to be successful in today's business climate.<br /><br />Finding a businessman who's morals and ethics are the same in his personal life and business is like trying to find a politician that isn't in someone's pocket.<br /><br />Jay<br><br>I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.
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Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>Jeff, Doug even said, we are not Mastro's target audience and are not the major spenders in Mastro's auctions. That should tell you everything right there. He will give us lip service, but he will do what he needs to do to keep increasing revenue of those he feel are the truly big spenders, while hoping not to offend enough of us that lost business from people he might alienate here is less than increased revenues from what he considers his main source.<br /><br />Jay<br><br>I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.
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Posted By: <b>Peter Spaeth</b><p>You are a schmuck here to be fleeced. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>
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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>If Dan can please find Pink Floyd's "Sheep" in video form and post it here I would be appreciative.<br /><br />
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Posted By: <b>shane</b><p>'<br />Jay writes:<br />"Doug, what you feel are attacks on you are legitimate questions. You continue to use double-speak and avoid giving clear and concise answers. When you sift thru everything, the main question that pretty much everyone wants to know is, "Since you consider spooning and other things to be OK, will this be noted in your auction descriptions, or, since you do not feel these are alterations, will this type of work be omitted from the description?" <br /><br />He has spoken this loud and clear Jay. He will continue with pressing out wrinkles and he will run his auction his way and not yours. He feels that any alteration or pressing of cards is Mastro's business. Does this mean that you will not bid since he will not change his business practice to satisfy you or anyone else? It is pretty obvious that his stance is not going to change. How about yours? <br />
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Posted By: <b>T206Collector</b><p>Ethics and morals are really driven by context and a person's individual background and experience. I don't know what you did (or didn't do) in your business situations, but I would bet that if you laid out for the Board the 3 different ethical crossroads that failed each of your 3 businesses, that each of our values and ethics would contribute to numerous different responses as to whether you handled each of those situations ethically and/or properly. If not, then I suspect your ethical crossroads were unique to your circumstances, since I do not think everyone would regularly reach a crossroad in business where they had to stab their mother in the back to succeed -- let alone three times. <br /><br />(N.B. No reference to anyone's specific mother and/or other family member is meant, either explicitly or implicitly; for reference-sake "mommy" can mean the woman or female otherwise giving birth to a generic widget or animal other than human.)<br /><br /><br /><br /><br />
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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Shane, how can Mastro's alteration of cards by methods that are frowned upon by PSA only be considered "Mastro's business"? Are we not buying their cards?
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Posted By: <b>Peter Spaeth</b><p>Shane you may be right this is all tilting at windmills, but as Auden wrote, "All I have is a voice to undo the folded lie."
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Posted By: <b>Todd Schultz</b><p>Mastro should disclose the fact of each card it has either submitted or resubmitted for grading, and if the latter, the before and after grades should be noted. The fact that the card was submitted or resubmitted by the auction house is information I believe bidders would use in factoring their bids. This in and of itself is neutral, and we don't have to get into what might have been done to the card (although I would certainly want to know). Also, if any card submitted by the house has been rejected, such fact should be disclosed if the card is going to be sold raw.<br /><br />I would like to know from Doug whether this will be done and if not, why not.
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Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>Shane, Doug HAS NOT stated specifically what will or will not be disclosed. That is what we want to know. <br /><br />What he has stated is that he will disclose all alterations they know about. They do not considered spooning, and some other things, to be alterations, but others do. Many of us want to know if spooning and other things they don't consider alterations, will be disclosed.<br /><br />so far, it's been more like hearing from the oracle of Delphi where the king is told an empire will be greatly expanded.<br /><br />Jay<br><br>I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.
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Posted By: <b>Peter Spaeth</b><p>Jay you are so wrong my friend, they will disclose alterations. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>
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Posted By: <b>David Vargha</b><p><i>Every person I talk to that has been in the hobby 20 yrs or more knows it's always gone on and always will.....I mainly collect gd-vg cards so it's really not that big of a deal. I would be more attacking the grading companies if I were you. They are the ones not catching the things that can't be detected </i><br /><br /><font color=blue>Gotta wholeheartedly disagree with that analysis. That's like saying it's the Fed's fault that counterfeit bills are in circulation. Sorry, but the perp is the primary problem.</font><br><br>DavidVargha@hotmail.com
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Posted By: <b>Bottom of the Ninth</b><p>I don't care what representatives of PSA, SGC or GAI say on their web pages, in writing on on telephone calls. They are all grading cards daily, by the dozens, which have had creases/wrinkles removed. While they may not actively condone this process, they are either unable or unqualified to detect it. When a card has been pressed to the point where it has been flattened, the card will be rejected and garner the rejection codes presented above for being pressed or altered.<br /><br />The grading companies say/write one thing and they practice another either due to incompetence or because it is impractical for them to be expected to catch something that is not there. When a hairline wrinkle is removed, it is undetectable and will not be coming back. <br /><br />I understand Jeff's interest in having full disclosure on methods used to prepare or repair a card but I don't see that forthcoming from dealers. This is a hobby reality not exclusive to Mastro.<br /><br />Greg
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Mastro Auction Descriptions
Posted By: <b>Cobby33</b><p>This sort of activity goes on in almost any industry where there is a quick flip for a quick profit. Why is anybody surprised that it has happened, continues to happen and will always happen- with that landscape?
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Posted By: <b>davidcycleback</b><p>If a company says it identifies altered cards, it has to be able identify altered cards. If it is their claim, it's their claim.
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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Greg, I agree. No one is claiming it is a Mastro-centric problem. Doug's the only one that comes out here, though, and attempts to engage us on the issue without engaging us at all. As I've said before, this is what you get with an unregulated industry.
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Posted By: <b>Cobby33</b><p>"...this is what you get with an unregulated industry." BINGO!<br />
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Posted By: <b>Brian Weisner</b><p>Yes, that's just what we need more Regulation... NOT... The collectors/market forces regulate this hobby and I prefer that to any new Bureaucracy run by the same type of people who run the UN.<br /><br /> Be well Brian
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Posted By: <b>Frank Evanov</b><p>Doug is probably having second thoughts...again...about coming on here and exposing himself to criticism. <br /><br />That said, I would like him to address his company's policy in regard to PSA's N5 category:<br /><br /><I>[N-5 Altered Stock - This term is used when the paper stock is altered in one or more of the following ways: Stretching and trimming, recoloring and restoring, trimming and recoloring, restoring an trimming, <B>crease or wrinkle is pressed out,</B> or gloss is enhanced.]</I><br /><br><br>Frank
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Posted By: <b>Kenny Cole</b><p>Jeff,<br /><br />As a lawyer, I suggest that the fact that you can't get an answer to your question answers your question. It ain't gonna happen. 'Nuff said. Best,<br /><br />Kenny Cole
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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>Since you only know how to disagree, as evidenced by your participation on the board, I will take it you agree with me. Thanks ......
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Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>And we all witnessed what happened when electric power was deregulated in CA. Enron happened. This goes back to my point about people having one set of morals and ethics for their personal life and one for their business life.<br /><br />In a utopia, no regulations would be just fine, but sadly, people's greed usually trumps their morals and ethics, so we need to have regulations in place to try and limit the lack of ethics and morality when it comes to business and money.<br /><br />Jay<br><br>I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.
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Mastro Auction Descriptions
Posted By: <b>Scott Elkins</b><p>...........Every person I talk to that has been in the hobby 20 yrs or more knows it's always gone on and always will.....I mainly collect gd-vg cards so it's really not that big of a deal. I would be more attacking the grading companies if I were you. They are the ones not catching the things that can't be detected >....best regards<br /><br />First of all, I have been collecting since 1978. I think most of us "old timers" in the Hobby will agree when I state that altering cards was not a big problem until Copeland started paying outrageous amounts at the time for NM cards. This is when some dealers with $$$ in their eyes started trimming cards to sell to Copeland (and, as many of us old timers know - Bill Mastro was acquiring a lot of these cards for Copeland)!<br /><br />Also, you want us to attack the grading companies and NOT Mastro Inc. and Doug Allen, after Doug admitted to altering cards before sending them to grading companies. Well, this is assinine! This would be like blaming the police for not catching a criminal! Oh, you killed someone - well, it is the police department's fault for not catching you. You are OK in my book, it is the police who we should blame. Common - use a little common sense!<br /><br />I do agree with one thing Leon stated - I also collect lower grade cards. That is one reason I still win lots from Mastro Inc. I will never consign with them again, and there are definitely cards in their auctions I would NOT bid on. However, it is like I told some people new to the Hobby - if you are going to bid on a lot in a Mastro auction and don't really know what to look for in regards to restoration or trimming, simply bid on SGC 40's and below. Do NOT bid on ungraded lots in their auctions nor PSA graded cards - especially high grades! As for autographs and game mem. - don't touch it with a ten foot pole!
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Posted By: <b>shane leonard</b><p>Jeff,<br />We are buying cards from Mastro, who brings to us the collector, collections that are not circulated on the open market. Most all of the cards that are raw in these lots are tampered free by card doctors. A HIGH percentage of those that are graded by these auction houses have performed some sort of work to them. (flatened corner, wax wipped off the front, wrinkle pressed out) I am having a hard time believing that this is really that much of an issue for the industry. It has been around for many years even before grading. It is an exceptable practice that will continue for much longer than it has existed. <br />The question to those that have a problem with this is what hobby are you going to next?<br /><br />Shane
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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>And all of this is coming from a guy who thinks all Wagners with Piedmont backs are 1950's reprints. Priceless. <br /><br />I don't disagree with you about when the trimming for dollars probably started. Since I wasn't in the hobby 25 years ago I don't know so will give you that one. BTW, isn't this the board that protects Mastro and won't let negative things be said about them? You can't have it both ways...<br /><br />Personally I don't have a problem with what Doug has said they might do to cards...and it's not "spooning" out creases. I don't have an issue with the 1st tier alterations like putting a corner down, erasing a light mark (or heavy one if the damn thing will come off) or any number of other very minor, superficial things. You do....we can easily agree to have a different opinion.....take care
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Posted By: <b>Cobby33</b><p>For those of us/you who don't want some kind of "regulation" or monitoring of these practices, then they will continue. They'll continue without regulation/monitoring, but to a greater extent. <br /><br />The only real solution here is to boycott. Is anybody prepared to do that?
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Posted By: <b>Scott Elkins</b><p>And all of this is coming from a guy who thinks all Wagners with Piedmont backs are 1950's reprints. Priceless. <br /><br />I don't disagree with you about when the trimming for dollars probably started. Since I wasn't in the hobby 25 years ago I don't know so will give you that one. BTW, isn't this the board that protects Mastro and won't let negative things be said about them? You can't have it both ways...<br /><br />Personally I don't have a problem with what Doug has said they might do to cards...and it's not "spooning" out creases. I don't have an issue with the 1st tier alterations like putting a corner down, erasing a light mark (or heavy one if the damn thing will come off) or any number of other very minor, superficial things. You do....we can easily agree to have a different opinion.....take care<br /><br /><br /><br />As I stated today on the website Jay and I created today - All the Piedmont Wagners are cut from sheets and are either 1950's reprints or cut from period sheets. Personally, I believe that most of these did come from the sheets printed up in the 1950's that Mr. Heitman even discussed on this board (but, I guess you know more about T206's than Bill Heitman to hear you tell it?). <br /><br />There are some facts about Piedmont Wagners you seem to forget while trying to make me look like an idiot! - <br />1) Piedmonts are MORE COMMON than Sweet Caporals - so why are there NOT more Piedmont Wagners than SC? <br />2) ALL Piedmont Wagners sold by these auction houses as real have been handcut and not factory cut. <br />3) There were Piedmont Wagners printed in the 1950's - I have seen a couple over the years and they looked damn good (they could have easily been passed off as real if the owners had not been honest).<br />4) NONE of the Piedmont Wagners that have come up for sale can have their provenance traced to a date before the 1950's!<br /><br />BTW - This is not the board that takes up for Mastro - YOU are the owner who takes up for Mastro! Just as you are doing in this thread. <br /><br />You might not have a problem with Mastro and Doug altering cards, but it CERTAINLY seems like others here have problems with it!<br />
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Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>And racism existed for too. Did that make it right also? If it's so acceptable, then why do the people that do alterations stay below the radar and hide from the public. If it was acceptable, I'd think they would be running ads in Old Cardboard looking for more business.<br /><br />You can bury your head in the sand about the problem, but some of us are trying to make things better for everyone, including you.<br /><br />Jay<br><br>I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.
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Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>Leon, Doug Allen/Mastro may take their licks here, but I think Scott's point is that you will defend Mastro to your dying breath. It makes some of us wonder just what it will take for you question Mastro's business practices.<br /><br />Jay<br><br>I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.
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Posted By: <b>David Vargha</b><p><i>Since you only know how to disagree, as evidenced by your participation on the board, I will take it you agree with me. Thanks ......</i><br /><br /><font color=blue>WTF was that all about and where did that come from? I was very respectful in my post. And you feel the need to slam me? Pathetic!</font><br><br>DavidVargha@hotmail.com
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Posted By: <b>Scott Elkins</b><p>Leon, above you tell people to blame the grading companies for NOT catching Mastro's alterations. Then, you state you have NO PROBLEM with Mastro's types of alterations. Why did you say to blame the grading companies, if there is nothing wrong with Mastro's alterations? Which is it. Should someone be blamed or not? Sounds to me like you are saying it is OK for Mastro Inc. and Doug to do this type of alteration. However, if we who disagree want to blame someone, we need to blame the grading companies for NOT catching Mastro's alterations. Again, this would be like blaming the police for not catching a criminal. These statements do not make any sense when put together. Also, the statement of blaming the grading companies does not make any sense on its own merit. I would simply like an answer to the statement regarding blaming the grading companies for not catching Mastro's alterations without bringing in my opinions on Piedmont Wagners (which really is going O/T with this thread - if you want to discuss Piedmont Wagners, and start a new thread, I will be happy to chime in a couple of times with my views - even though I have stated them more times than some people want to hear).
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