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Posted By: <b>John</b><p>Kevin,<br /><br />My apologies, I’m really not trying to be confrontational at all. Its just it seems every week for the past months we have been presented with lots of speculation and innuendo about the hobby being destroyed, trimmed altered etc. Were all a bit tired of the constant conspiracy theory stuff, or at least I am.<br /><br />While most of this stuff is all news worthy, most of it if not all of the things that are brought to light are done so in a very cloak and dagger manner with very little fact or proof behind them. This makes it hard to believe or do anything about it. Also certain individuals have made it their personal soapbox agenda, which further ruined any good intentions behind the cause of cleaning up our beloved hobby.<br /><br />I understand all to well the fact it wouldn’t be prudent to go into step by step detail on altered cards and how there done. I also appreciate your inputs on bad cards being highlighted by yourself. But unless your superman, you cant be with all of us all the time. <br /><br />How then do you suggest we protect ourselves from this epidemic you speak of? <br /><br />What things should we be on the lookout for? <br /><br />What are the common tell tale signs of altered cards?<br /><br />Are there things we can do to help us spot altered cards?<br /><br />Have you taken steps to offer your services to grading companies?<br /><br />These are just some of the things others and I are asking for your input on. If you can’t give us guidance on some of the above, and all we can talk about are broad statements and photos, all you have succeeded in doing is making collectors paranoid. <br /><br />Just one collector’s opinion. Balls in your court Kevin.....<br />

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Hi Jim- I wasn't dodging your question, I just shut off the computer early at night.<br /><br />How many mid-grade cards do I have in my auction that are altered? While I can't say with absolute certainty, if I had to guess I would say zero. There is nothing special about them to suggest any have been tampered with. They have some corner rounding, some light creasing, a few nicks here and there...they are what they are. If someone altered them, I'll tell you one thing- they are no better off now than they were before!

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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Funny.<br /><br />Some think I am a buffoon and Kevin is a clown that plays with bleach Ha ha. Its amazing how much in the dark ages some are on this board.<br /><br />If some of you would take any time to learn you would see that Kevin is an expert and know ns more than most of you combined.<br /><br />If he chooses to share his wisdom here you are lucky.

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>We agree that Kevin is knowledgeable and does have much he can teach us.<br /><br />But I think the problem we all have is that he is approaching this as a doomsday scenario. According to Kevin, no collector should trust anything he or she sees, that every card in the hobby is potentially tampered with.<br /><br />If that is the case, I suggest everyone stop collecting baseball cards and take up a new hobby, such as collecting balls of string, or playing shuffleboard. Those seem like safer venues to me.

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Posted By: <b>Bill</b><p>I think this would be, and could be, a great topic to be discussed on this board. As Kevin stated, going into extreme detail could potentially be harmful as there are always a small few who could use the information for the wrong reasons, understood. However, Kevin coming forth and stating that he would be more than willing to share at least some information is something that I know I, as well as others I am sure, would greatly appreciate. For that, I thank you Kevin.<br /><br />As far as Jim goes, I really don't understand why you post on the board at all. I come on the board to read threads and learn more about the vintage world, quite a few post great information and knowledge. There are others, however, who seem to be the ones who ruin this board for everybody else. I do not see you posting much on this board. However, the threads I have read, and the posts you make, come off as highly juvenile. Your posts portray yourself as an arrogant person, intent on belittling everyone on here. If you have such a problem with people on this board, why do you bother to come here at all and ruin it for others who like to share their knowledge or are trying to learn about vintage cards? Maybe this is not your intent and you do not believe that you come across this way. However, this is exactly how it sounds.<br><br>Change your socks, drink water, and drive on.

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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Sorry Bill--I don't know you but feel free to attack me--it makes you one of the boys here...and I like it.<br /><br />Barry--exactly--anything(lets just say most things) can be altered--if Kevin for fun can get cards past the graders I think anything is suspect.

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Posted By: <b>Joe Pelaez</b><p>Peter's thoughts about an investors crash in the T206 market.<br /><br />Hmmn, as much as I'm not for it, it does have some merit. <br />All the investors in denial will panic, and seek financial safety elsewhere. <br />If the investors decide to part with whatever is left of their dwindling portfolios, I'm sure that the collectors will extend a hand, and show an out pouring of their warm hearts.<br />We'll even purchase the plane tickets for our brothers and sisterS of the Collectors Investors in Denial.<br />Then, you will see a celebration that will dwarf the celebration called El Cinco de Mayo, to "Putting the (H) back in the Baseball Card Hobby.<br /><br />It's a win/win situation for everybody.<br />The marketeers can go back to reading their Wall Street Journal.<br />The collectors can go back to talking about baseball cards in whatever collector condition. <br /><br />All kidding aside,we love you poor misguided folks.<br />If you can handle the crash?<br />Stick around, and we'll teach you how to enjoy, and have some real fun with the cards. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br />Double Hmmn.<br />Peter, or is that Frank? .. comes out of the closet. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br />In another thread, I was discussing the mindset difference between the sicko collector and the investor in denial.<br />Peter claimed to be both, an investor and a collector, I thought otherwise.<br />Today in this soul searching thread, he comes out.<br /><br />"Well if the prewar stuff dropped then the modern card market would probably follow. I would stop collecting both."<br /><br />Peter<br /><br />OK Peter,<br />Now look at the audience and say: "I am not smarter than a fifth grader" <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br />-------------------------<br /><br />Jim C. two things:<br /><br />(1). ... "Kevin,<br /><br />I owe you a call. I do want to speak with you-- sorry.<br /><br />Don't post anymore Kevin--people will think you are serious."<br />*<br />*<br />Jimbo, if I didn't know any better, I would have funny thoughts about the above.<br /><br />(2). ... Edgar Bergen and Charlie McCarthy have been away for many years.<br />Stop trying to lip sync Kevins words.<br />He can handle, and speak very well for himself.<br />--------------------------<br /><br />"Only enough room on a cross for one" <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br />I Luv that line.<br /><br />John W,<br />Those are good questions for Kevin, and I do believe he wants to help.<br />I don't know Kevin, but he sounds like he knows his area.<br />I'm just a collector also, but when you lay down a lot of bread for some cardboard, and then you find out that it might not be kosher. ... you'd be surprised how intense your drive and determination to learn all about that card is.<br /><br />I studied it, and I had what almost looked like a war room.<br />I just didn't study the card, I connected all the dots, and crossed all the T's.<br />I went to Danny Dupcek store "Fantasia" several times in up State, NY.<br />A comic and baseball cards store with autograph T206'S in his display case.<br />Connected names to other deals with him.<br />Talked to the District Attorney inhis area.<br />Discovered a network connected to Flint MI, that included a dealer and some people interested in the altering scheme.<br />This was in 1990, between Memorial Day & Labor Day.<br />Without seeing the card, Lew Lipset was the one that gave me the clue that it might not be good.<br />He had heard about it from a major collector that also fell for it.<br />I went to the Parsippany NJ show, and happen to mention it to Mastro, he recommended Herman Kaufman to represent me, I couldn't have asked for better, we became strong friends.<br />Got in touch with Bob Lemke, I told him the story, and he was extremely helpful.<br />It was a delicate situation for him, because Fantasia was also an advertiser in SCD.<br />Got in touch with Larry Fritsch, because he owns two Doyles and I knew that he would have an interest in Doctor Koos work.<br />John Tish, a dealer and friend from the Onionta and Cooperstown area was involved, and Mark Macrae from the west coast came on board.<br />All the while I'm studing my real Slow Joe Doyle, the two un kosher ones from Dr. Koos, common Doyle's NY and every T206 Nat'l that I could look at.<br />I was looking at the type fonts, ink colors and the constant of the T206.<br />I got my money back, but the kicker was the national in Texas.<br />We found a dealer from mile high that got a Magie from a dealer from Flint MI.<br /><br />Mile high took a long time in believing us, and never even thanked us when he got his money back.<br /><br />Flint MI. was expecting more booty being brought in by his son from Flint MI.<br /><br />The dealers that I know are nice people.<br />Instead of looking for cards for my collection, I spent most of the time talking to dealers, telling them about the Koos work and trying to point out what to look for.<br />I kept a couple of pointers to myself for a good reason.<br />I knew the story was going to be getting out.<br />I saw no sense in letting the Dr. know what to cure.<br /><br />The sad part about this is, I was hoping that the dealer at the show would pick up the banner and slam Dr. Koos, but that wasn't the case.<br />As a collector, I won my fight.<br />Except for LEW LIPSET - MARK MACRAE - HERMAN KAUFMAN - JOHN TISH - FRITSCH and LEMKE, the others let Danny Dupcek escape, and come back to haunt them and the collectors later.<br /><br />I'm not an expert, but never mess with a person from Spanish Harlem. ... he can become a blood hound in seconds flat<br /><br />John W. ... stay well.<br />Kevin S. ... welcome on board ... front and center, and let's get the bastards. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br />Joe P.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /> <br /><br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>Bill</b><p>Many people here have no idea who I am because, as I stated, I come on here to read threads and learn more about this great hobby.<br /><br />If you feel my post was an attack, my apologies. As I said at the end, maybe you don't intentionally come across a certain way, however that is how it comes across. In any event, you still did not mention why you come to the board if you have such a problem with everybody here. Oh well, to each his own.<br><br>Change your socks, drink water, and drive on.

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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Joe--"lets get the bastards"--my sentiments exactly.<br /><br />Bill--why? To expose all of the card alteration/restoration that is being done and get the hobby to rise up and say "we are not going to take it anymore" except for a few committed souls here, there has been a collective yawn.<br /><br />Have not given up--just pushing it through other venues.<br /><br />Interesting that perhaps the number one expert in restoration comes on here and is called a buffoon or a clown or whatever--all I am saying is that is the treatment you get here when you bare trying to expose a major problem.<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Jim- could you please share with us the names of the people who called Kevin a buffoon or a clown? I don't know where this is coming from.

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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>Why is it always "Net54's" fault? What did this web hosting company ever do to anyone? Answer- nothing !! I get so sick and tired of hearing this crap...and the crap about nothing is ever any good on this board anymore and no one posts anymore. If you said anything like this then you are obviously in the river in Egypt, called "De-Nile"...We currently have the most, and best, board members I have EVER seen, INCLUDING the FullCount days. I thank everyone for that...including the folks that talk smack about this board...I appreciate hearing criticisms...It's part of anything we do.....I think Kevin has enlightened us quite a bit, Jim C is obviously worried about his cards, and most of the rest of us don't care. I do care about altering and bad things in the hobby but like to talk about the good stuff even more. It's just a few thoughts I figured I would throw in...Getting back to topic if the bottom fell out of the market I would be both disappointed and happy. I would definitely still be a collector.....more than ever.

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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Barry,<br /><br />I would be happy to--always fun to watch Net54 people eat their words.<br /><br />Frank A.--"only a buffoon like Crandell would take this Saucier clown seriously"<br /><br />Frank A.--"hobby novice playing with bleach and trying to talk a bigger game"<br /><br />Adam Smith--"right on both counts"<br /><br />I suspect that is all we will here from these two jokers--ha ha.

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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Leon,<br /><br />Can see I did not convince you of my motives--I am trying to do something good for the hobby--expose and get rid of card alteration which affects ALL collectors.<br /><br />Why else would I continue to publicize something that can only hurt the value of my collection.<br /><br />Cheers.<br /><br />Jim

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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>Sorry, but I just don't believe that if you collected the pr-ex cards that most of this board collects, you would be as interested. I am not and most others aren't. Don't get me wrong, I do think it's important....just not as much as you. You are more than welcome to your views and to continually express them.....You have continually stated you don't come onto this board to make friends, which I do, and does disappoint me a little. To each their own though. Also, for the record, how many times have I asked you to stop posting what you think? (answer should be 0)........I would like to see you post something, sometime, about what the rest of the board is interested in too. I am not trying to be hateful but you are somewhat of a 1 pony show, and it does get a little old....again, no disrespect meant....regards

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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Leon,<br /><br />I drove the highest post counts in the history of the board--or at least since I have been looking at it--anything I post about draws a lot of responses. People weren't interested in my Mastro thread??? I believe that drove a record number of responses.<br /><br />If you want to have people post about what other people care about pick those with 5 or less responses--there are a ton of those this year--don't believe I have had any though. I am sure there are some regular offenders who post about those pesky obscure sets.<br /><br />Also do not believe I have continually said I am not on the board to make friends--probably once--what I am interested in is discussing serious hobby issues--and there is none more pressing than the restoration of cards. Do not disagree that the majority of the board has little interest in serious issues though--although I do think you are sincere when you say that you do.<br /><br />Best regards,<br /><br />Jim

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Posted By: <b>cmoking</b><p>Leon wrote: "Sorry, but I just don't believe that if you collected the pr-ex cards that most of this board collects, you would be as interested. I am not and most others aren't. "<br /><br />I wonder why collectors of poor to EX cards don't seem to care. Would these collectors care if someone cracked a SGC Authentic holder with a trimmed card only to send it in and have it come back as SGC 40? This just happened to me. It's probably a $200 card in SGC 40, but a $50 card in SGC Authentic. Would you care about your the extra $150 if you were buying that card? I know I would. (don't worry, it won't be going into the marketplace). Would VG-EX collectors care that two PSA 4 T206 cards were previously in SGC Authentic holders and are most likely trimmed (i.e., SGC got it right, PSA got it wrong)? If these collectors don't care, then maybe they won't care whether I list them with full disclosure or no disclosure. I'm guessing they'd rather have the full disclosure.

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Posted By: <b>peter chao</b><p>Guys,<br /><br />In an abrupt downturn it is actually the first to sell that are in the best position. They may have sold at a profit and have nothing to lose. As the market continues it's drop, they can take their sweet time in deciding whether they want to buy back in. Others sweat.<br /><br />Peter

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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>Please don't take my response out of context concerning caring about alterations of lower grade cards....I believe you left out the next part of my quote....<br /><br />"Don't get me wrong, I do think it's important....just not as much as you."<br /><br />thanks<br />leon

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Posted By: <b>John</b><p>King, what can you do? You make good points, but you and I know it’s the game now. Dealers submit trimmed cards over and over hoping to find a weak link in the system, sometimes it works and these cards end up in a holder.<br /><br />I’ve heard first hand stories from dealers themselves that have heated discussions/favors pulled from grading companies to get a certain card in a holder. Its going to happen, and will continue to happen. <br /><br />Once thing that amazes me is the on site grading, as long as companies allow themselves to be in close proximity of the submitter there just seems too be to much a chance for bias/influence. They will swear up and down it doesn’t go on, but I have to wonder.<br /><br />So how do you stop it??<br />

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Posted By: <b>peter chao</b><p>Guys,<br /><br />There's too much room for abuse. Look at it this way, in order for the grading companies to make money, they can't pay the graders that much. Maybe 10 - 15 dollars an hour. Are they really going to spend extra on having a separate security system to make sure the graders don't cheat for their friends.<br /><br />The people who submit their cards stand to make maybe an additional $500 if they recieve a better grade on a nice prewar Hall of Famer. However, the grading company will make the same 10 bucks either way. The person submitting the card has a much higher incentive to try and influence the grader. Since the grader isn't making all that much, he may listen.<br /><br />Peter

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Posted By: <b>George Dreher</b><p>&lt;I drove the highest post counts in the history of the &lt;board<br /><br />And Jerry Springer got the highest ratings at one time didn't he?

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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>King,<br /><br />After talking with Kevin are you more optimistic? pessimistic? is there realistic hope?<br /><br />I am going to try to call Kevin today.<br /><br />No word yet from Joe on other topic. I have tried.

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Posted By: <b>Jason L</b><p>it is entirely possible to be popular or important for the wrong reasons<br />

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Posted By: <b>cmoking</b><p>Leon, you're right. I did take you out of context...apologies.<br /><br />John, you're right too. I don't think there is much that can be done right now. I think the best way is for collectors to learn what they can, and try to avoid the altered cards, whether in holders or not.<br /><br />Jim, after talking to Kevin, I'm not more or less optimistic about the hobby. But I am much more optimistic about my own interest in this hobby.

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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>King,<br /><br />Why is that?

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Posted By: <b>cmoking</b><p>because I feel I have a better understanding of what to look for from what Kevin has shown me. I've returned a couple of cards already in PSA holders that had signs of trimming, I would not have noticed them a year ago. And if I'm suspicious but not as certain about a card, Kevin is willing to take a look and let me know what he sees - sometimes he sees nothing wrong (and it's a relief as I will feel more comfortable keeping the card), other times it hurts. Based on some results, there are certain big-time perfect feedback sellers on ebay that I will now absolutely stay away from because the rate of altered cards is way too high. The bottomline for me is I am more happy and comfortable with my current collection than I was before.<br />

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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>King,<br /><br />Interesting--we will have to exchange lists perhaps? Mine is growing all time.<br /><br />Jim

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Posted By: <b>Dave</b><p>Well, just read all of this from this morning. Ok Crandell...can we get back on topic now? Please?

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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>I thought we were on topic.

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Posted By: <b>JK</b><p>Peter,<br /><br />The grading system doesnt work in the manner you are assuming. I dont disagree that some bigger submitters may get preferential treatment. However, I doubt seriously its from the $10 per hour graders - most likely, its coming from much higher up. The graders getting the bulk of submissions are supposedly given cards without reference to who the cards belong - only a submission number.<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>Jason L</b><p>you could provide the Board in the near-term would be to publish your list of these high-volume, good feedback sellers from which you have bought material but would no longer do so (for whatever reason).<br /><br />...rather than privately exchange the names of those with whom you will no longer do business with. Because I'm sure most would agree that if you do not wish to do business with certain sellers, then neither would I or most others...<br /><br />I suppose the language would need to be carefully chosen, but I'm sure some lawyers on the Board could help out with that. That would be truly helpful to most everyone, I would imagine. Perhaps a simple "Here are dealers I do not buy from" list...rather than making any explicit claims of one sort or another.<br /><br />Thanks,<br />Jason

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Posted By: <b>David Vargha</b><p><font color=blue>Wow! Talk about shooting the messenger. Kevin is <b>extremely</b> knowledgeable on the subject and has always been more than willing to share his expertise with friends, collectors and even the professional grading companies. I love it when the self-professed "know-it-alls" jump in with their obligatory responses to prove their ignorance whenever and wherever they can. Sheesh!</font><br><br>DavidVargha@hotmail.com

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>If the hobby has reached the point where collectors begin losing faith in the grading system, and begin to believe that even their graded material is fraudulent, then the day of reckoning is not far. If ever there were a cataclysmic event that could send the market crashing, this is it.

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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Thanks David--its unbelievable isn't it?

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Posted By: <b>Jason L</b><p>I will be heading out to the desert in my RV, with my tin foil hat on my head, a beer in one hand, and binoculars in the other!!!<br />

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Jason- go for it! I predict the world is coming to an end (I'm still working on the exact date).

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Posted By: <b>Joe Pelaez</b><p>For the continuing adventures of:<br /><br />As The Market Turns. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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Posted By: <b>Kevin</b><p>"...and begin to believe that even their graded material is fraudulent"<br /><br />Well, just 15% anyways. LOL<br /><br />btw...thanks Mr. Vargha (a sign of respect, he's much older than me) <img src="/images/wink.gif" height=14 width=14>.

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Sad but true, I think anything and anyone associated with or supported by Jim Crandell automatically gets looked at with a jaundiced eye by the board. I suspect that had Kevin come in and posted without Jim's intro and play by play, he would have been treated differently.

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Kevin- I'm not doubting anything you say, but this is all too depressing. I think it's time for a new career (but not quite yet).

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Posted By: <b>Dave</b><p>Jeff...am I the only one puzzled by Crandell's constant praise and shoulder massaging he is doing on the behalf of Kevin? Kevin sounds like a smart guy. I don't think Kevin needs to be massaged or whispered sweet nothings by Jim. Not sure where Jim is going with all this...as usual.

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Posted By: <b>David Vargha</b><p><i>btw...thanks Mr. Vargha (a sign of respect, he's much older than me) </i><br /><br /><font color=blue>I believe that operative word here is "taller" (not "older").</font><br><br>DavidVargha@hotmail.com

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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Dave,<br /><br />No need to give it a lot of thought--my motives remain the same--get rid of card restoration and save the hobby. You can quit analyzing.<br /><br /><br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Barry,<br /><br />Yeah but only a minority of collectors read Net54 or LTS and the rest of the world thinks things are great--probably for one that is an investor, a good time to be taking some money off the table.

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Posted By: <b>Cobby33</b><p>The more we talk about "fraudulent" cards in holders leading to the demise of the hobby, etc., the more likely this is to become a self-fulfilling prophecy. Whether this is an epidemic or not, it's going to be perceived as one and unfortunately, the unfounded panic may very well cause what we (you) all fear, a market crash of sorts. <br /><br />Keep talkin' about it without qualifying it on a case-by-case basis and it'll happen.

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Posted By: <b>Dave</b><p>Hardly anything to analyze. It's a repetitive process at this point. Every few days you have to come on here and jump on the same ship again and again. Correct me if I'm wrong..but other than card "fraud" is there a single topic you've even tried to jump in and discuss? Other than the "keep the threads on topic" debacle?

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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>Fine with me if the sky falls. I am not an investor and will still be collecting....It would suck (value-wise) but at least I would be able to buy more cards. I agree that only a very small percentage of collectors read any chatboards, especially this one and the private LTS one.....Personally, if I wanted to collect privately I probably wouldn't collect....but again, to each their own....Whatever makes ya' happy......best regards

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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Dave,<br /><br />You seem to want to spend your time studying my motives so I thought I would save you some time.<br /><br />Graded cards I love to talk about--any serious hobby issues.

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Posted By: <b>T206Collector</b><p>....I think Jim's motives are simple enough. I do think he wants to save the hobby, even if it doesn't need to be saved -- he wants to save his puritan image of the hobby, which caused him to stick with PSA 8 cards in the first place. He's trying to restore his initial feeling about the purity and rarity of PSA 8. <br /><br />And, when he finds someone that he thinks supports his belief system, he is desperate to align himself with that person to find a shield from the attacks -- having alienated even his early supporters on this Board he's continuing to look for safety in numbers. Of course, having him on your side is the kiss of death for anyone with a valid point to say. The revulsion and acrimony people feel towards him makes it hard for any real issues to get through.<br /><br />Perhaps one day he'll realize that and let the useful points through, without clouding them up with statements that amount to, "See, guys, that's all I was trying to say all along," with a strong whiff of arrogance.<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>No T206 you are wrong again. How someone can be so consistently wrong I will never know. I think this time he was wrong about altered cards being primarily high grade and as usual he takes out his frustrations on me. <br /><br />You are a very disturbed man and I feel sorry for you T206 or whoever you are. Go kick your dog or whatever it is you do.<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Are you two guys at it again?

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Posted By: <b>Brian</b><p>Kevin doesn't need Jim's help to piss people off, I am confident in his ability to piss people off on his own. <br /><br />Vargha is taller than Kevin, but that's not a high hurdle...

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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Just responding Barry--I could care less about the guy--he keeps attacking me out of the blue--I will respond.<br />His way of attacking me is to say I have no friends--ha ha .<br /><br />He won't be invited to my annual summer bash-card show this year.

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Posted By: <b>Dan Bretta</b><p>Can anyone remember what Adam Moraine did to get banned from this board? I know he was annoying, but geez it couldn't have been worse than this. I think that little kid who kept asking about the first baseball card was less annoying than our current resident troll.

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Posted By: <b>Marc S.</b><p>and for those of you who dismiss him as a buffoon playing with bleach -- you have no clue what you are talking about. Kevin can expertly detect trim jobs, recolorations, gloss additions, and myriad other alterations that aren't even on the radar screen of some experienced graders. Kevin is a student of the hobby -- and he is absolutely one of the good guys who is willing to try and educate collectors about what to be careful for. For me, it is always a sad testament about the human condition that so many are so willing to drop thousands of dollars on rare and/or high grade material without doing any due diligence on those materials -- and then crying foul if they found out a dealer sold them a trimmed card, of when they find out that some graders are more or less reputable than others. <br /><br />I am very thankful for Kevin's expertise and assistance, and I think his warnings, sometimes dire, simply highlight a worst-case scenario that many of us care not to imagine. Consider how many auctioneers/dealers/collectors may know bits and pieces of this same information, but are simply not talking about it.<br /><br />Marc

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Posted By: <b>boxingcardman</b><p>The hypothetical situation where cards just drop and drop in value. <br /><br />I think it would look something like the collecting situation for post-1990 base cards does now. Some people still collect them but most of the people who were into shiny crap collecting appear to have bailed. <br /><br />I suppose I'd stay involved with vintage regardless of value since I enjoy the collecting, the socializing and the challenge of putting together a collection of rare objects (I collect lots of "worthless" stuff now; just ask my wife). I was collecting before it was big bucks, I collect now, and I'd collect if it went back to 1975 prices; heck I'd probably go back to being a five sport plus nonsports collector like I was 25-30 years ago.

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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Bretta,<br /><br />I feel the same way about you--you ruin every interesting thread there is with a video and you never have anything interesting to add.

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Jim, why does every thread in which you participate end up with you and nine people in a fight? What is the common denominator?

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Posted By: <b>Bill</b><p>Many people do appreciate what it is Kevin does. However, how can you feel sorry for people dropping money down on cards when there are people out there who simply won't share the information on what to look for in an expertly altered card? Nobody is looking for details on how it's done, just what to look for in a card it has been done to.<br><br>Change your socks, drink water, and drive on.

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Posted By: <b>Dan Bretta</b><p>Jeff, the common denominator in this case is - one. <img src="/images/wink.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br /><object width="425" height="350"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/yiGOKAWDy7c"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/yiGOKAWDy7c" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"></embed></object>

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Dan- I'm really hooked on youtube these days, and I've made some great finds. If you are a Beatles fan, use the search "Beatles Come to Town" and you will see something really special.<br /><br />I had to hijack this thread. I can't take any more of this fighting.

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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Jeff,<br /><br />The common denominator is there are a group of people on this board who resent or dislike my focus on restoration of cards and perhaps the way I have gone about it. Usually same suspects--you, T206,Bretta and a few others who I can't recall. Certainly I have no interest in calling people names or even bringing ones family into it such as been done. But I will respond to the personal attacks.

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Posted By: <b>ScottIngold</b><p>Adam J Morain (sp?)<br /><br />Now there's a name from the past. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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Posted By: <b>Brian</b><p>I agree with everything that Marc said. The only thing he failed to mention is how short Kevin really is.

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Posted By: <b>Dan Bretta</b><p>Jim, I don't resent or dislike your main reason for being here. I dislike your attitude, and your innate ability to offend everyone on this board in a near constant fashion. If you go back and read the old threads you will see that I was on your side at one time. Can you not see that you have managed to alienate nearly every poster on this board?

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Jim, I support the issue of cleaning up card doctoring. Nearly everyone does out here. Incredibly you consistently refuse to acknowledge that you are the one that has rubbed just about everyone out here the wrong way. What does your family have to do with it? Whatever family you may have has not even been mentioned in this thread. Just another desperate attempt to deflect blame from yourself. I don't even know if you have a family -- and frankly with the way you treat people I would find it hard to imagine that you have an intact family (and I'm not saying that to be a smartass). I think you just for once, finally, need to recognize that there is a reason why people out here (and off the board as well -- trust me on this one it is true) dislike you. I actually feel bad for you and I wish you'd get some sort of help for your problem instead of just continuing to play the victim. Please note that nothing in here is a personal attack. Just fair and honest criticism.

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Posted By: <b>Brian Weisner</b><p> Hi Guys,<br /> I avoid these threads like the Plague for a reason; they stink.... I come here to exchange info with other collectors, not fight with them. <br />I am happy to share my knowledge with anyone who is interested, and I am very happy to learn from those who know more than me. I thank everyone who takes the time to educate others, and wish the people who bring nothing but negativity to the board would think before they speak. Be well to all Brian<br /><br /><br />PS We all know that "card doctors" exist, and that they have existed for quite sometime, but a lot of us have the skills to discern real from altered through experience and do not need to be saved. Could we use some "new" information on the latest techniques? Absolutely.... The funny thing is, that most of the people on this board are TRUE collectors who can't stand fakes or alterations, So why do we have an arguement every week??? I'm sorry I just don't get it....<br /><br /><br />PS 2 Barry I need some Seinfeld.... A job at Kramarerica industies will be just fine, don't go Kenny.....

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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>My side?? Who cares?? This isn't a game where we pick sides. And I could care less if I have alienated you and others. I am here to publicize the alterations/restorations being done and hopefully have something done about it. Other than that I am interested in graded cards and discussing serious topics without it being interrupted by your videos. Please just go away or play your videos on a music site or start a separate thread.<br /><br />Getting Kevin on here was huge. He confirmed a number of things I have been saying all along. Hopefully he will post again--as Marc points out the guy is super knowledgeable.

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Posted By: <b>Dan Bretta</b><p>Hopefully he will post again - I am especially interested in the questions that Wonka has asked that have so far gone unanswered.

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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Jeff,<br /><br />I have been told by many not to engage you so I won't.<br /><br />Again, I could care less what you think of me. <br /><br />You are the one in my opinion who needs to look in the mirror.

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>I just saw Seinfeld being interviewed by David Steinberg and he talked about a routine he used to do about the wanted posters with the mug shots of the criminals at the post office...it went something like "why didn't they just hold onto these guys when they took the picture?"<br /><br />I thought that was a typically funny Seinfeld observation.

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Posted By: <b>Dan Bretta</b><p>Jim C wrote: "Jeff, I have been told by many not to engage you so I won't. Again, I could care less what you think of me. You are the one in my opinion who needs to look in the mirror."<br /><br />This may be single funniest thing you have ever posted. You won't engage him, but you do just that in the very next sentence. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> Well done!

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Jim- may I ask you a direct question? Why do you continually say you don't care what people think of you, and that you are not on the board to make friends? Because the way I see it, I think you find some personal satisfaction in making enemies. I know not everyone can like me, but I couldn't post on the board if all day long people were attacking me. I just can't fathom the thinking behind that.

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Jim, you keep saying that you've been told not to engage me -- yet you continually do. Actually, I have had some very funny conversations about you with people offboard and none have warned me about not engaging you. They've actually found your responses enlightening and hilarious.

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Posted By: <b>Brian Weisner</b><p>Thanks Barry,<br /> I needed a good laugh.... I actually look at the wanted posters in my little post office sometimes, but have never seen any of them, except on AMW... Thank you John Walsh. Time for 24. Be well Brian

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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Thank you and you too can be enlightened if you would just listen and learn.

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Jim- Jeff does listen and learn, and he is a pretty smart guy. Why would you even say that? And please answer my question if you could. Thank you.

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Posted By: <b>Cobby33</b><p>Wonder what's going to happen when, by innuendo (or worse), somebody is falsely "outed" for altering cards. Eventually, someone is going to be sued for loose-talking-guess we'll just have to sit back and wait.

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Posted By: <b>Dan Bretta</b><p>Wasn't somebody who resides at a higher altitude than most of us already accused of altering cards? Nothing ever came of that.

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Posted By: <b>John</b><p>You guys know what needs to be done, pick up the baby give him some attention and he’ll doze off to sleep until another day…then its pick up the baby…repeat this as many times as you can. The most important thing is pay attention to Jim!<br /><br />That's a good little Jim, youu'ree so smart aren't ya, I could just eat you up, num num num....I'm eating you up....<br /><br /><img src="http://photos.imageevent.com/piojohn3/junkforumimages/mrbean_baby1.jpg"><br /><br /><br />“He won't be invited to my annual summer bash-card show this year.”<br /><br />All joking aside....<br /><br />I know T206collector is out but I’m still invited right??? I mean I had planned on making my famous Noodle Kaboodle and everything, and most the guys here will tell you its really good. Barry loves the stuff; he offered me some 19th stuff for the recipe. <br /><br />So I’m still in right????? Jim right?? Hello Jim????<br />