Hopeful conclusion to the 1930 Goudey Ruth saga......
 

Posted By: <b>Dylan</b><p>Well good for you Frank that you new the item was no good before everyone else did. That doesnt mean that the people that didnt are idiots. They assumed they were buying an item with a guarantee of authenticity, and if it wasnt, a refund would follow. This from a reputable(past tense) auction house.

Hopeful conclusion to the 1930 Goudey Ruth saga......
 

Posted By: <b>Bob</b><p>Hey guys, cut Frank some slack. He doesn't think it is a real card and thinks it could be an expensive bookmark. That's his opinion. Personally I wouldn't have wanted to buy it because it didn't appear to be a "card" I would be interested in, no matter its cost, that's my opinion. Let's all agree to disagree. <br />I think I'd rather spend time talking cards with a guy like Frank than with some of the investocrats on this board who care only how sharp the edges are on that PSA8 card. <br />I agree with the poster who said the lines between collecting and investing are blurred and getting blurrier all the time, but even if the bottom falls out tomorrow, I've had a great time collecting and meeting new people and it has been a wonderful hobby.

Hopeful conclusion to the 1930 Goudey Ruth saga......
 

Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>I agree completely. Mr.Wakefield (hi Frank) is still one of my favorite folks on the board. We can all agree to disagree occasionally however, as long as we remain professional, no one gets their panties in a wad. I know I hate it when mine get in a wad....that and bad panty hose really annoy me.... For the record I also don't think it matters whether the buyer was an investor or collector, with repsect to this purchase. The card hasn't gone from being bad to good due to the motive of the buyer....best regards

Hopeful conclusion to the 1930 Goudey Ruth saga......
 

Posted By: <b>Josh Adams</b><p>"Even if he occasionally sells a piece of cardboard or two."<br /><br />edit to add:<br />Yaaawwwwwn. <br />I've said it before, and I'll say it again, what's so bad about selling some of your cards and making money? Yes I know nobody is "saying" that it's bad, but the tone of some of these posts are dripping with insincerity. <br /><br />I sell cards, I try to sell alot of cards, in order to fund my own purchases for my collection. And you know what else? I hope the cards that I buy, and even slab (gasp!), go up in value. You know why? because I put alot of time and effort in my collection. I love my cards, but I also like the idea of having the possibility to turn my cards into cash if need be. Heaven forbid I needed money to help my family, I wouldn't hesistate to sell my cards for them. And you know what else? I would hope that I would get more than I paid for them.<br />Does that make me any less of a colletor? Maybe in the eyes of a few people stuck on their high horses, but guess what? That doesn't really matter all that much to me. I know I enjoy collecting, I've made some pretty great friends, and also made a couple bucks on the side. <br />But enough of this holier than though nonsense. <br /><br />Josh

Hopeful conclusion to the 1930 Goudey Ruth saga......
 

Posted By: <b>Steve</b><p> I've sold a few cards. Sold them because the monetary value had gotten so exponentially beyond what I paid for them that I couldn't justify keeping them. <br /><br />With all due respect.<br />Just like a true investor would do.<br /><br /><br />Steve<br /><br />

Hopeful conclusion to the 1930 Goudey Ruth saga......
 

Posted By: <b>PC</b><p>"The rules of hypocrisy do not apply to Frank" is no. 64 on the list of 101 Interesting Things About Frank.

Hopeful conclusion to the 1930 Goudey Ruth saga......
 

Posted By: <b>Steve f</b><p> Why ya hassling Frank for speaking his mind?.. He's passionate about our hobby and despises the dilusional Tin Men that have migrated to it. I don't entirely agree with him (I buy/sell), but I share his frustration. Instead of chastising the guy, he should be praised for his conviction and openness.

Hopeful conclusion to the 1930 Goudey Ruth saga......
 

Posted By: <b>Rob Dewolf</b><p>So let me see if I follow:<br /><br />1. Frank, a "true collector," knew right from the start that the Ruth card in question is a fake (and that he wouldn't pay $5 for it.)<br /><br />2. Mark H. didn't know the card is a fake and bought it.<br /><br />3. So the logical conclusion? Mark H. must not be a true collector but rather an investor.<br /><br />Got it.<br /><br /><br /><br />

Hopeful conclusion to the 1930 Goudey Ruth saga......
 

Posted By: <b>Al C.risafulli</b><p>I think it may have something to do with the incessant, repeated, neverending, relentless, day-in-and-day-out criticism of anyone with different collecting methods or motivation, coupled with the continuous implications that those people are somehow less knowledgeable, passionate or RELEVANT.<br /><br />Maybe.<br /><br />-Al

Hopeful conclusion to the 1930 Goudey Ruth saga......
 

Posted By: <b>E, Daniel</b><p>When Frank chastises others who collect differently to himself, he should be praised for his conviction and openness, but those who feel constantly smeared and their gravitas diminished by those same posts should feel unable to speak their minds??? <br />This is a Jim the backbone scenario as I see it. Anything that comes Frank's way in relation to his consistent condescension is well deserved for all the stabs he takes at sections of the collecting community. He's bright enough to win the argument if there's enough truth on his side, and if not, then his comments more likely are merely petty and unenlightened.<br />All appreciate his knowledge, smarts, and colorful character - but his scarcely hidden contempt that airs itself in posts all too regularly is not going to make him everyone's cup of tea....<br /><br /><br /><br />Daniel<br /><br /><br /><br />Edited to replace the word 'brightness' with smarts.

Hopeful conclusion to the 1930 Goudey Ruth saga......
 

Posted By: <b>Peter Spaeth</b><p>As someone not skilled in the art, I would be interested to hear from Frank how he could so easily tell the card was a fake. That would be enlightening, since apparently it fooled even some fairly knowledgeable folks (e.g., moderator dude and the other underbidder who reportedly is a veteran collector). Frank was it the scan, or the nature of the item, or both that raised red flags for you?

Hopeful conclusion to the 1930 Goudey Ruth saga......
 

Posted By: <b>JimB</b><p>Frank also recently sold at least one graded card on the BST. I believe we all know how he feel about graded cards, though he has not yet reminded us on this particular thread - strangely enough.<br />JimB

Hopeful conclusion to the 1930 Goudey Ruth saga......
 

Posted By: <b>Frank Wakefield</b><p>Respectfully, Steve, an investor buys to sell.<br /><br />I bought the cards to collect, not to sell. So I don't think I've become an investor if I sell a few. <br /><br />I'm selling a few T210s, not because I invested in them so I could sell them at a profit... but because I spent just over $1000 to get one card in a lot of a couple of dozen. So I'm not selling the T210s as a true investor would. Nor did I sell the N172s as a true investor would. Investors would have bought them planning to sell them. I'm sitting here hoping I have a kid or a grandkid one day who gives half a tinker's damn as much about the cards as I do... <br /><br />But since folks have stayed after me, it has occurred to me that the solution sought was to send that card of to some slabbing companies... for those that think they know me, just guess what I think of turning to professional graders for a solution to anything! <br /><br />I can tell you a good investment for around where I live... find about 20 rough acres out in the country, buy it, then plant seedling cherry trees and walnut trees. Tend to them for a few years so the rabbits and deer don't eat them. Then wait 3 dozen years or so... die, and leave that land to some kids or grandkids. That is one fine investment. Trouble is that it is so long term it takes another generation to reap the benefits. I invest in a few stocks, 5 mutual funds, my kids' education... not baseball cards.

Hopeful conclusion to the 1930 Goudey Ruth saga......
 

Posted By: <b>Jeff Prizner</b><p>Frank sold cards?! He sent them in for grading?!<br /><br />Wow, I'll never look at the same 1000+ anti-grading posts the same way again. Deep down, Frank's a slab-head like the rest of us! Welcome to the dark side Frank!!!

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Posted By: <b>Wesley</b><p>Sign of the apocalypse?

Hopeful conclusion to the 1930 Goudey Ruth saga......
 

Posted By: <b>Dan Bretta</b><p>C'mon guys Frank is used to his opinions being the last word. <img src="/images/wink.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>Frank Wakefield</b><p>Hello Peter,<br /><br />If you were being cynical about me being able to tell the card was a fake, then good jest, and good post. Jump on, with them!<br /><br />If you're sincere as to wanting to know, I'll be glad to exchange half a dozen emails with you, explaining what all it was. First, read Malcolm Gladwell's book, Blink. Then email me and I'll go through it with you. Seriously. And I'm patient, I'll be glad to discuss it in a week or month. Just read Gladwell's book first, as a cornerstone of how it can be done.<br /><br />Frank.

Hopeful conclusion to the 1930 Goudey Ruth saga......
 

Posted By: <b>Al C.risafulli</b><p>You see, Frank? That's the thing.<br /><br />You CONSTANTLY criticize people on this board. You criticize people for collecting graded cards, you criticize people for having an investor mentality, you criticize people for not trying to get to know their cards, and you criticize people for using the board to talk about issues that you don't feel are relevant to the hobby.<br /><br />Then you make a statement - MULTIPLE times - like "I wouldn't pay $5 for that card", and when someone asks you how you could tell it was a fake, and what do you do?<br /><br />You tell him to buy a book.<br /><br />Here's an opportunity amidst this crappy thread about this horrible issue for something good to come out of it - for a hobby expert to impart some knowledge in a public forum, and initiate the very type of discussion that he's always complaining never happens, and what do we get?<br /><br />Go out and learn something, and then if you still want to talk, email me privately.<br /><br />Peter, I wouldn't have known the card was a fake unless I took the time to realize - which I didn't until well after these threads began - that Big League Chewing Gum didn't exist during the time frame the card was allegedly made. In hindsight, the design doesn't look period, and the quality of the workmanship isn't consistent with the other artwork produced by Goudey in the late 1920s and early 1930s. Those issues would have given me pause, had I been interested in the card in any serious way.<br /><br />-Al

Hopeful conclusion to the 1930 Goudey Ruth saga......
 

Posted By: <b>Frank Wakefield</b><p>Hey there, Al...<br /><br />Peter and I have exchanged 3 emails. Could you mark down in your calendar to email Peter early in May? By then he'll have read the book. (The first few chapters are enough, but once Peter starts I just know he'll read the whole book.) Email him in May, and ask him if I did enlighten him as to how that Ruth card isn't authentic. Ask him if he feels like he learned anything from me, and the book. <br /><br />If, after reading the book and exchanging emails with me, then if Peter thinks my response up there was crap circumlocution, then I'll apologize right here, to both you and Peter. I'll even bump it every few hours. But if Peter tells you that he's now a bit better able to discern cards for himself, then either read the book and join us, or hush up, please sir. <br /><br />I recall when I was in graduate school, and decided to quit on the masters and go to law school instead. I told Dad what I was doing. He asked me how old I'd be when I graduated law school, I thought and told him, 32. He said nothing, as if his point was made that I was too old to go to law school. I then told Dad I'd be 32 then whether I went to law school or not. Later in life he told me that was the first sensible thing I'd said to him in years. A fellow's never to old to learn. If only he's willing.

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Posted By: <b>Al C.risafulli</b><p>Edited. Never mind.<br /><br />-Al

Hopeful conclusion to the 1930 Goudey Ruth saga......
 

Posted By: <b>Herman Taube</b><p>If I read this correctly, why should it matter on Steve's part if the item is fake or not as it relates to a refund? Isn't he essentially the middleman who is the agent for the consignor? If major industry forces have determined the card is illegitimate then just reverse the buying process. Refund the buyers money and dont pay the consignor. Yes, CS is out the vig but thats the risk of doing business. The owness and costs associated with is on the consignor as to getting the card legitimized or paper test or whatever. How is this CS's duty? Reverse the deal and everyone is safe and happy or am I not seeing something here?

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Posted By: <b>Steve M.</b><p>Steve has with your analysis Herman is that he has already paid the consignor and the consignor bought it from him originally. It would be pretty hard to go back now under those circumstances and recover anything from the consignor. I guess he could look to the original consignor whoever that might be.

Hopeful conclusion to the 1930 Goudey Ruth saga......
 

Posted By: <b>Corey R. Shanus</b><p>here's what you're not seeing. Auction houses do have duties to buyers, even though they are selling items on behalf of consignors. These duties, which can arise under applicable state law and/or the auction house's own terms and conditions of sale, can compel an auction house to refund to the buyer his/her money if the item turns out to be a fake. In such an instance, the auction house can then (i) turn to the consignor for restitution (if the consignor has already been paid) or (ii) withhold payment to the consignor (if the consignor has not yet been paid). In either case, though, it is the auction house's responsibility alone to deal with the consignor. To the good faith purchaser of the item, all he/she has to do is deal with the auction house.

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Posted By: <b>Dylan</b><p>Everyone wants to blame the investors, but dont think for one minute that the run up in prices is just due to investors. Collectors are just as guilty for spending vast amounts of money on cards