Ok....what 3 pre-war HOF'ers would you boot out?
 

Posted By: <b>howard</b><p>Good one, Judge!

Ok....what 3 pre-war HOF'ers would you boot out?
 

Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Thanks Fred. I looked up "gonfalon" in my Webster's and it wasn't listed. It's as antiquated as "whilst".

Ok....what 3 pre-war HOF'ers would you boot out?
 

Posted By: <b>Anonymous</b><p>Joss belongs -- or if he doesn't about 15 other pitchers have to go too.<br /><br />He led the league in ERA twice and wins once and his lifetime era 1.89 is the 2nd best ever. Even adjusted for his era his ERA is the 12th best. I would rate him as a pitcher with a short but great career behind Koufax but ahead of Dizzy Dean -- I would also rate Caruthers ahead of Dean. Nolan Ryan conversely is a Hall of Famer based on some rather staggering lifetime numbers put up over an exceptionally long career -- especially strikeouts. <br /><br />Joss is more deserving than several Pitchers(among others): Chesbro, Bender, Marquard, Haines, Pennock and Hoyt from the pre-war period.

Ok....what 3 pre-war HOF'ers would you boot out?
 

Posted By: <b>Anonymous</b><p>For the statheads. Note that Joss has the top W+H/IP all-time (Walks plus Hits allowed per-inning) -- one of the stats currently in vogue.<br /><br /><a href="http://www.baseball-reference.com/j/jossad01.shtml" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.baseball-reference.com/j/jossad01.shtml</a>

Ok....what 3 pre-war HOF'ers would you boot out?
 

Posted By: <b>NickM</b><p>Dave Bancroft, Rick Ferrell, Chick Hafey, Waite Hoyt, Travis Jackson, Rube Marquard, Herb Pennock, and Joe Tinker all go. <br /><br />Nick

Ok....what 3 pre-war HOF'ers would you boot out?
 

Posted By: <b>Hal</b><p>I looked this up in Wikipedia. A gonfalon is a type of pennant. The Wikipedia article explains that the phrase means that the Cubs continually spoiled the Giants' chances (burst their bubble) for the pennant.

Ok....what 3 pre-war HOF'ers would you boot out?
 

Posted By: <b>peter chao</b><p>Guys,<br /><br />Dizzy Dean is barely Hall of Fame material, but he did have that monster 1934 season so he's in. But Addie Joss never had that overwhelming season or seasons he should be out.<br /><br />Peter

Ok....what 3 pre-war HOF'ers would you boot out?
 

Posted By: <b>peter chao</b><p>Guys,<br /><br />I wanted to qualify my prior statement about Dizzy Dean's monster 1934 season. Dizzy as a member of the Gas House Gang won 30 games in that year.<br /><br />My personal bias is that if a ballplayer has a short career and make it into the Hall of Fame, he better have a couple of seasons where he absolutely is the best. For example Dizzy Dean in 1934 and 1935. Or Sand Koufax for a 5 year period.<br /><br />For a lengthy career it isn't that important to have monster seasons, it's possible to get in when you simply hit the cumulative numbers. For instance, Nolan Ryan and Phil Niekro.<br /><br />Peter

Ok....what 3 pre-war HOF'ers would you boot out?
 

Posted By: <b>Jason L</b><p>the 8 umpires that are in the HOF.<br />There is no way that anyone who is supposed to be invisible on the field (and have no impact on the game as it is played) should be enshrined in the HOF.<br />makes no sense.<br />boot them all out.<br /><br /><br />that's my just 4 cents (my input is in nominal terms, not adjusted for inflation)<br />

Ok....what 3 pre-war HOF'ers would you boot out?
 

Posted By: <b>peter chao</b><p>Guys,<br /><br />In the Politics of Glory, Bill James brings up that the movement to get Addie Joss into the Hall of Fame didn't start in earnest until after Dizzy Dean got in. This makes sense in a way because Dizzy also had a short career and people started looking twice at Addie's career.<br /><br />However, through the politics of the Veteran's Committee the rules were changed for Joss so that he could get around the 10 year requirement. It should have never happened, you should never bend the rules to allow a borderline candidate to get in it makes no sense. It makes sense to bend the rules for an exceptional candidate like Roberto Clemente, but not for a borderline candidate.<br /><br />Addie Joss in his time was not an exceptional pitcher whereas Dizzy Dean was in his time.<br /><br />Peter

Ok....what 3 pre-war HOF'ers would you boot out?
 

Posted By: <b>Chris Counts</b><p>Peter,<br /><br />I'm glad you brought up Bill James' book. It's a must-read for anyone who believes that induction into the Hall of Fame is a true measure of a player's greatness ... James, by the way, believes Minnie Minoso is the most deserving eligible player not in the HOF ... he also believes there is no evidence Pete Rose bet on his own games, but that's another story ...

Ok....what 3 pre-war HOF'ers would you boot out?
 

Posted By: <b>Judge Dred (Fred)</b><p>Peter,<br /><br />With all due respect, do you really believe that Addie Joss was not exceptional? His lifetime ERA isn't something that was made up. <br /><br />Do you think that Dizzy Dean is more deserving that Addie Joss? <br /><br />Dean had a few good seasons strung together, I wouldn't count his 20-18 season as dominating. Dean was to the word exceptional at his best as Denny McClain was to the word exceptional in his prime. I don't see people beating down the doors to have Denny enshrined. Look at Denny's lifetime stats, he wasn't that bad and he kind of paralleled Dizzy. <br /><br />Denny was the last 30 game winner in either NL or AL. The last person to win 30 games before Denny was Dizzy Dean (34 years before). In the 34 years before Dizzy won thirty games there were no less than 14 seasons where the league leader won 30 games and that doesn't count the also rans that won 30 games. Dizzy's 30 game season, although spectacular, was not exceptional. If you take away his 30-7 season Dizzy doesn't stand a chance for the HOF. Take away his 30-7 season and the lifetime win% drops from .644 to .612 (not bad, but Denny had a lifetime win% of .590). <br /><br />I'm not trying to make a case for Denny McClain I'm just using him as an example. Denny was good in his day though. Dizzy was pretty good in his prime and so was Addie Joss. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> <br />

Ok....what 3 pre-war HOF'ers would you boot out?
 

Posted By: <b>peter chao</b><p>Fred,<br /><br />I do think Dizzy Dean is more deserving than Addie Joss, perhaps not by much but still enough to warrant entrance into the Hall of Fame. Also at the same time Addie Joss was good but not good enough to warrant the Hall of Fame to bend their rules.<br /><br />Denny McLain will never get serious consideration because his lifetime numbers are inadequate and also unlikely to fulfill the moral character standard.<br /><br />Peter

Ok....what 3 pre-war HOF'ers would you boot out?
 

Posted By: <b>George Dreher</b><p>Someone in this thread suggested that Joe Sewell doesn't belong in the Hall. My only question is:<br /><br />When will we see someone go an entire season and strikeout a total of 3 times again? He did that twice. If I'm not mistaken he also had a season when he only struck out 7 times. The guy went 115 games without a strikeout. He played 14 years with over 7000 at bats and only struck out a total of 114 times in his entire career.<br />How many times does Ichiro strike out a season? More than 50 I'm sure.

Ok....what 3 pre-war HOF'ers would you boot out?
 

Posted By: <b>John Kalafarski</b><p> Maybe I'm the only one with this take: there seems to be something very mean spirited about trying to figure out who should be thrown out of the Hall of Fame. I'd rather consider the question of who could be added. By the way, I think Dizzy Dean is in partly because of his work doing his radio show and baseball play-by-play: a loveable ambassador of the game.

Ok....what 3 pre-war HOF'ers would you boot out?
 

Posted By: <b>howard</b><p>The movie version of Dean's life, "The spirit of St. Louis", was released in 1952 and the following year he was elected to the Hall of Fame. Perhaps if "The Addie Joss Story" had been made ten or twenty years after his death Joss would have had an easier time with the voters.

Ok....what 3 pre-war HOF'ers would you boot out?
 

Posted By: <b>howard</b><p>Is Wilbert Robinson in as a player or manager? Either way I think his case is pretty weak.