Very interesting history on the Wagner psa 8/trim
 

Posted By: <b>Dan Kravitz</b><p>Why does every thread that I find interesting and would like to continue (or at least stay on track) end with Jim fighting with a board member? Please, contain your BS on one thread. No one cares if it goes 1,000 deep, but stop f'ing up every thread! Dan Kravitz<br /><br />edited the f'ing word only...all of the letters were left in it...

Very interesting history on the Wagner psa 8/trim
 

Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Dan,<br /><br />I couldn't agree more.

Very interesting history on the Wagner psa 8/trim
 

Posted By: <b>joe brennan</b><p>If I am reading Bill's post correctly, then there maybe an authenticity issue surrounding Wagners with certain backs. Is this a reason we have only 3 with this back? Very interesting. If a select few collectors had access to vintage presses and inks and the knowledge, then only they know what they produced. Wouldn't fool anyone back then, but as the years went on and these collectors faded into the back ground who knows what has surfaced as authentic. Very interesting read Bill. Thank you.<br><br>In Rememberance of James W. Brennan Sr. 1924-1982. Dad, thanks for everything you did for me.

Very interesting history on the Wagner psa 8/trim
 

Posted By: <b>Mark Evans</b><p>I can't wait to read the new book. I hope it addresses not only the allegation that the card was hand-cut from a sheet, but also Bill Heitman's point that such sheets were not printed until the 1930s. This fact seems to me to even further diminish the card's value.<br /><br />The most intriguing aspect of this discussion to me is the timing of the most recent sale. Assuming the buyer is aware of the book and that it undoubtedly questions the provenance of the card, he/she must have determined that the controversy can only enhance its value.<br /><br />By the way, this thread strikes me as an example of this forum at its best. Mark <br /><br />

Very interesting history on the Wagner psa 8/trim
 

Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>I don't think there is anyway all of the (4) known Piedmont backed Wagners are rebacked or not real. The one that I saw recently was the one that had the Charles Bray letter with it, auctioned by Mastro. It's been around for almost 60 years, as a known card, so I don't think it's got a problem....regards

Very interesting history on the Wagner psa 8/trim
 

Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>I think that when the order came down to cease distribution of the T206 Wagner, the Sweet Caporals had already been distributed, while the Piedmonts had yet to leave the factory. All the Piedmont Wagners were thereby destroyed, except a handful that found their way out the back door.

Very interesting history on the Wagner psa 8/trim
 

Posted By: <b>daryle</b><p>I viewed "THE" card in 1992 at the National Convention in Atlanta. This is the first time I've viewed these articles, but have heard of them. When I saw the card in '92 I only knew that it was the "PSA8 WAGNER!!!!". My first thoughts when I got up close to the card (if you didn't see it that weekend it was in a big stand up glass case on a pedastal on an 8-foot table all by itself and you could get like 3 inches from the card) was "It looks like it's been trimmed." Really that was my thoughts. I turned to my friend (R.I.P........1974-1997), who was not that big of a collector, but had seen my T206s and the other several 1000 that we had looked at the show, and asked him to look at it close. He agreed...............trimmed. Then, the news hit.........is it trimmed??????..............hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm I'd rather have on in lower grade than this one, because its trimmed!...........<img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

Very interesting history on the Wagner psa 8/trim
 

Posted By: <b>Aaron</b><p>Anybody have a scan front and back of the Wagner strip from the Halper collection?

Very interesting history on the Wagner psa 8/trim
 

Posted By: <b>Dave Hornish</b><p>Interesting that Bob Sevchuk was involved. I grew up in Hicksville and went to grade school across the street from his store (actually, that was earlier since I'm so damn old) and when I reconnected with hobby I started going to his shop (co-owned with Marty Perry at the time) and he always had some amazing one-of-a-kind pieces. Bob was involved in a number of contoversial deals over the years (remember the Hall of Fame scandal with their World Series programs being sold?) but he certainly knew how to get nice stuff that no one else had. I still have a number of cards I purchased from Bob over the years; his shop was great!

Very interesting history on the Wagner psa 8/trim
 

Posted By: <b>Scott B.</b><p>Found this interesting article on T206 Museum regarding trimmed Wagner<br /><br /><a href="http://www.t206museum.com/page/discussion_2.html" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.t206museum.com/page/discussion_2.html</a>

Very interesting history on the Wagner psa 8/trim
 

Posted By: <b>davidcycleback</b><p>A visiting out of state science professor (sports fan but non-collector) mentioned to me he read in the news <br />the card sold for $2.35 million. Making conversation, I smilingly told him some people think the card is trimmed. <br />He had no idea what trimmed meant, how and why it was done. He didn't know if trimming was considered <br />good or bad. I explained why someone would trim a card: that prices are dependent on condition and trimming <br />can artificially raise the condition. "Interesting," he said.

Very interesting history on the Wagner psa 8/trim
 

Posted By: <b>peter chao</b><p>David,<br /><br />So what's the difference between the Wagner being hand-cut from the sheet and trimming.<br /><br />Peter

Very interesting history on the Wagner psa 8/trim
 

Posted By: <b>davidcycleback</b><p>All that really matters in the hobby is disclosure. Though I don't know why (beyond potential $$)<br />someone would cut down an uncut T206 sheet into singles, unless major portions of the sheet had major<br />cardboard rot or rat savaging.<br /><br />A number of years ago a stash of complete uncut 1957 Topps sheets were found, including Mays, Mantle, Koufax<br />and all the stars. Many to most of the sheets were cut down into smaller panels of varying size. This<br />was in part due to marketability, I'm sure, but also for practical/aesthetic reasons. Due to storage<br />condition some portions of the sheets were sharp and clean, while others were torn, stained and literally<br />filled with bullet sized holes. The owners felt it best to cut down the sheets to more attractive panels,<br />and sold them as cut from sheets. They often told the history of the sheets when selling. If you ever see a <br />1957 Topps panel of 6, 9 or whatever cards, they likely were trimmed from these sheets ... Even if the history<br />is not said for a 9 card 1957 Topps panel, there's no deception, as a panel had to have been cut down at one time<br />or other from a larger sheet-- and obviously a panel isn't being marketed as a factory cut single card ready<br />for entombment by your favorite singles grader. A 9 card panel won't fit into a SGC or PSA singles holder even<br />if you fold it twice and push real hard.<br /><br />Duly note, that I haven't offered my personal opinion on whether or not the card is trimmed, and it<br />shouldn't be interpreted that I have.

Very interesting history on the Wagner psa 8/trim
 

Posted By: <b>peter chao</b><p>David,<br /><br />Now your sounding like the expert witness that you are. Actually, I can almost picture it...ten years from now there's another buyer for the Holy Grail. The Buyer says he was cheated because the Wagner was trimmed and the trial to determine the fate of our hobby starts...your called to the stand for your opinion.<br /><br />That would be a pretty hot seat to be sitting in.<br /><br />Peter

Very interesting history on the Wagner psa 8/trim
 

Posted By: <b>Scott Elkins</b><p>I have ALWAYS felt that these Piedmont Wagners are from the 50's. I have always felt that they were printed with Piedmont backs b/c real Wagners were ONLY known with SC 150 backs from Fact. 25. I truly believe that were these Piedmont Wagners from the "era", there would be MORE than Sweet Caporal available - b/c Piedmont is even more common than Sweet Caporal.<br /><br />I have seen some of these 1950 Piedmont Wagners, where the people admit what they have - they look VERY REAL! I almost bought one early on, then realized REAL WAGNERS SHOULD ONLY BE FOUND WITH A SWEET CAPORAL 150 FACT. 25 BACK!<br /><br />Like Leon stated - the one that was sold in Mastro ONLY has a provenance dating back to the 1950's!!!! I seriously doubt a Piedmont Wagner will ever be found dating back to 1909 like it SHOULD! <br /><br />I believe the sheet found in FL to be one of these 1950's reprints. Afterall, the Plank had a SC 150 back, the Wagner had a Piedmont 150 back and from every source I have heard this story, the cards were on a SHEET - NOT A STRIP (again, please refer back to Mr. Heitman's post above regarding cards not printed on sheets until the 1930's).<br /><br />I have been chastized a lot believing the Wagner PSA 8 dates back NO MORE than the 1950's. However, I would tell anyone in the market for a REAL WAGNER to buy one with a Sweet Caporal 150 back from Fact. 25!!!!!

Very interesting history on the Wagner psa 8/trim
 

Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>There's an awful lot of information circulating about just what this PSA 8 Wagner is all about. So much, in fact, that it is impossible that one card could be all these things at the same time.<br /><br />It would be nice if we were able to separate fact from fiction. At this point I don't know what the real story is.

Very interesting history on the Wagner psa 8/trim
 

Posted By: <b>peter chao</b><p>Scott,<br /><br />That's scandalous, the Holy Grail is a reprint...the mystery is getting deeper.<br /><br />Peter

Very interesting history on the Wagner psa 8/trim
 

Posted By: <b>Al C.risafulli</b><p>David-that's interesting. I have two of those 1957 panels, three cards each. I always wondered where they came from and thought maybe they were some sort of promotional magazine insert or something. Nice to know how they got that way.<br /><br />They're very nice and very well-preserved.<br /><br />-Al

Very interesting history on the Wagner psa 8/trim
 

Posted By: <b>davidcycleback</b><p>Al, if your panels are in high grade, that's a good deal. The panels vary widely in grade, with some<br />having water stains and a bullet hole or two.<br /><br />There are also 1950s Topps and Bowman salesman samples, which are small panels of uncut finished cards. Salesmen <br />used these to promote the product to stores. The key is that the salesmen samples have company advertising<br />pasted across the back (they physically glued a paper add across the backs of the panel). The 1957 Topps<br />cards cut from the earlier mentions sheets have no such ads, just showing the normal card backs.

Very interesting history on the Wagner psa 8/trim
 

Posted By: <b>Brian Weisner</b><p><br /> Old Judges were printed on Sheets and so were T206's period. I can't speak to the 30's or 50's printing, but I can say that of 4-6 cards have been re-assembled to establish part of a T206 sheet, so strips are out of the question. Personally, I think Barry is correct, that the Piedmont Wagners were printers scrap that went out the back door, but we will probably never know. Be well Brian<br /><br /><br />PS If someone could reprint Wagners and Plank's in the 50's; I think they would have created more than 2-3......<br /><br />

Very interesting history on the Wagner psa 8/trim
 

Posted By: <b>joe brennan</b><p>Brian, Ok so the Wagners were printed on a sheet. How come only 1 Wagner was on that sheet and not a whole vertical row like all other T206's. If this Wagner was cut from a sheet and it was the only one, then it's a reprint from the 50's. No other explaination is possible, unless of course they decided to print this one sheet different from evey other T206 sheet ever made. Agreed?<br><br>In Rememberance of James W. Brennan Sr. 1924-1982. Dad, thanks for everything you did for me.

Very interesting history on the Wagner psa 8/trim
 

Posted By: <b>peter chao</b><p>Joe,<br /><br />If the Wagner is a reprint, then PSA missed it when they were grading and we know that's not possible. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br />Peter

Very interesting history on the Wagner psa 8/trim
 

Posted By: <b>William Heitman</b><p>There is an interesting part of the PSA 8 Wagner discussion that usually is ignored. Bruce McNall made his "fortune" in coins. The creator of PSA was also the man who owned PCGS, the coin grading company. The guy who actually graded the Wagner also had a background in coins and was really a relative newcomer to cards. He was at my home shortly before he graded the Wagner, and after, and we debated grading that card. Despite very serious misgivings at that time, he stated to me "We HAVE to grade that card." I understood exactly what he meant.

Very interesting history on the Wagner psa 8/trim
 

Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>Mike, you are obviously new and have no clue as to why this board was founded and its history. If you did, you would know why I and others were upset with the introduction of banner ads. As for other "trivial" items on your list, I hope you are being sarcastic, because most of those issues are far from trivial.<br /><br />Jay <br><br>I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

Very interesting history on the Wagner psa 8/trim
 

Posted By: <b>joe brennan</b><p>Kinda like finding out there's no Santa Claus. Today, I cherish my mid to low grade T206's more than ever. <br><br>In Rememberance of James W. Brennan Sr. 1924-1982. Dad, thanks for everything you did for me.

Very interesting history on the Wagner psa 8/trim
 

Posted By: <b>Bob C</b><p>Ebay actually killed my auction for this rare gem a couple of years ago...<br /><br /><img src="http://www.rbcraik.com/ebay/DOH.JPG">

Very interesting history on the Wagner psa 8/trim
 

Posted By: <b>Brian Weisner</b><p> Hi Joe,<br /> If the Wagner in question were on a small horizontal strip of 5-6 cards than there would only be one to cut out. While I have heard all of the stories and did see a picture of the Oversized Wagner at one point, I have never seen a picture of "the sheet" it came from.<br /><br /> Be well Brian

Very interesting history on the Wagner psa 8/trim
 

Posted By: <b>Cobby33</b><p>Maybe Monty Python should do a Holy Grail II, regarding the follies of this (these) cards. Maybe we should cast Board members are the players in this new movie??? I'll withhold my thoughts...<br /><br />Also- it should come as no surprise that the grading companies give "big customers" preferential treatment (which was the subject of another thread). Although I don't think it necessarily bastardizes the whole industry, it does have the potential to lower their credibility.

Very interesting history on the Wagner psa 8/trim
 

Posted By: <b>davidcycleback</b><p>Interesting uncut sheet trivia of the day:<br /><br />The 1984 Topps/Nestle Set (limited parallel to the regular Topps set, but with a special Nestle symbol) was <br />issued to the public in large uncut sheets, not as single cards. Some dealers cut down many of the sheets <br />into sets of single cards. As the complete sheets are relatively common and most collectors prefer <br />single cards to a large sheet, this is the rare case where the complete set is worth more in singles form <br />than in uncut sheet form ... And if you purchase a single card, it's not factory cut as the factory never<br />cut them ... I'm sure Don Mattingly collectors are familiar with the set, as it includes a rookie Mattingly<br />much rarer than the regular Topps card.