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My T206 Plank theory....and, what's your guess ?
Posted By: <b>Ted Zanidakis</b><p>My 4 years in the Air Force were divided between Champaign, Illinois and Bangor, Maine. WLS and WABC (NYC)<br /> were clear-channel stations that were "booming" and could be heard from the mid-west to northern New England.<br /><br />Those were the days of the great "sounds". And, here is another TRIVIA ? for you.....what was the song, artist,<br /> movie, and the year that "Rock & Roll" really became widely accepted by the youth of America ?<br /><br />T-Rex TED
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My T206 Plank theory....and, what's your guess ?
Posted By: <b>Frank Wakefield</b><p>Hound Dog and Elvis maybe??? I know little about his movies... Oddly, I only liked a few of his songs, Suspicious Minds, Kentucky Rain...
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My T206 Plank theory....and, what's your guess ?
Posted By: <b>DMcD</b><p>Rock Around the Clock<br />Bill Haley and the Comets<br />Blackboard Jungle, 1955<br /><br />Great time to be a kid!<br /><br /><img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/Jan07/55_Dodgers.jpg">
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My T206 Plank theory....and, what's your guess ?
Posted By: <b>JimB</b><p>Other than Bender and Davis not having good years in 1908 as Ted suggested, can anybody else suggest why they were not pulled like Plank if tobacco, rather than Philadelphia/American Caramel was not the reason.<br />JimB
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My T206 Plank theory....and, what's your guess ?
Posted By: <b>Ted Zanidakis</b><p>David McD<br /><br />You are the Trivia King for a day.....you got all four answers perfect.<br /><br />And, you are absolutely right......the 1950's was a great time to be a kid.<br />I would not trade my age with anyone......if it meant I would miss out on<br />growing up during the '50s.<br /><br />Nice colorful photo of the only World Championship team ever in Flatbush.<br /><br />Ted Z
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My T206 Plank theory....and, what's your guess ?
Posted By: <b>Ted Zanidakis</b><p>JimB<br /><br />Bender and Harry Davis are not the only A's in the 1st (150) Series of T206's.<br /> There are also Doolin, Murphy, Nicholls, Oldring and Powers. But, these guys are<br /> not in contention, as they were not in the E90-1 set.<br /><br />But, a possible answer to your question regarding Bender and Davis (and perhaps<br /> any other A's players) is.....in order to have exclusive rights to their guy, Plank....<br />Am. Caramel "threw a few bones" to the T206 guys by allowing them to depict the<br />other A's players.<br />Such negotiations are not unusual in the "BB card Wars" between Candy, Tobacco,<br /> and Gum producers.<br /><br />This was the case between Goudey and National Chicle....ditto, for Bowman vs Leaf<br />and, Topps vs Bowman.<br /><br />And Jim, you have to get off this "tobacco thing"....there has never been any proof of<br /> this regarding Plank...."anti-tobacco is just another word, for nothing left to excuse"....<br />paraphrasing Janis Joplin, 1969. <br /><br />TED Z
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My T206 Plank theory....and, what's your guess ?
Posted By: <b>Frank Wakefield</b><p>Ok... here's what I think and why:<br /><br />Bender, H. Davis, and Plank are in American Caramel sets. American Caramel is based in Philadelphia, where the A's played. <br /><br />1903 E107, Breisch Williams was a predecessor of AC, and the set had all 3, Bender, Davis and Plank. I think BW merged into the new AC.<br /><br /> American Caramel sets<br /><br /> Bender Davis Plank<br />1908 E91-A y y y <br />1909 E90-1 y y y <br />1910 E125 y y y<br />1915 E106 y n y <br /><br /><br />other sets<br />1909 E92 Dockman y y n<br />1910 E93 Standard Caramel y n y<br />1909 E95+96 Phila Caramel y y y ****<br />1909 E97 Briggs n y n<br />1909 E101 set of 50 y n n <br />1910 E98 set of 30 y y n<br />1909 E102 y n n<br />1910 E105 Mello Mint y y n <br />Most of these sets are small 25 cards, 30, 50, 100 or so.<br /><br />What do Bender, Davis and Plank have in common? All played in Philadelphia with the A's. Their careers overlap. Davis started sooner, and retired sooner (except for some token appearances).<br /><br />How are they different? Plank was a college graduate, an educated gentleman playing a ruffian's game.<br /><br />It is reasonable that AC got Philadelphia players under contract for their cards, either when the cards were released, or soon after. The American Tobacco Trust sent reporters out to get contracts signed after production started. Maybe AC did this before ATT, or maybe contemporaneously. The ATT T206 cards probably came out at the end of the 1909 season, so it seems that some of the candy cards were out there first. Wagner had his T206 pulled over the money (not the tobacco). If Plank, college educated, was approached to sign, it seems that he may well have not taken the few dollars offered and refused, since he'd already signed an agreement with hometown AC. Maybe he heard about Wagner's not signing, Pittsburg wasn't that far from Philadelphia.<br /><br />So Plank isn't in the ATT tobacco issues. He is in 2 non-ATT tobacco issues:<br /><br />T208 Fireside, from 1910. The cards show Bender, Davis, and Plank. They were from the Thomas Cullivan Tobacco Company of Syracuse, NY. <br /><br />T204 Ramly, from Massachusetts. The cards also show Bender, Davis, and Plank.<br /><br />Maybe T204, T208, and the Philadelphia Caramel Company (above with "***") which was located in Camden, New Jersey... maybe these out of state companies didn't care about what AC thought of their use of the likenesses, or maybe Plank or the AC just didn't know, or they didn’t care what was happening outside of Pennsylvania.. ATT was selling cigarettes in Philadelphia, but Ramly and Fireside weren't, and that Camden NJ candy company would not have had much of a presence there, either.<br /><br />So I think Plank would have been under contract with AC, and he wouldn't sign a contract for ATT when approached. I figure Bender and Davis were less educated, less concerned about proprieties, and pocketed the few dollars offered.<br /><br />I think Ted Z has something with all of this.<br /><br />Frank.<br /><br />Edited.... I had those "y"s spaced out under the players' names, but it didn't space after submitted, so I've added "n"s and it is a mess. Sorry.
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My T206 Plank theory....and, what's your guess ?
Posted By: <b>Larry</b><p>I noticed that there was some direct descendants of Ed Plank featured during a commemorative ceremony in Gettysburg, PA not too long ago and there was an Ed Plank III and some grandchildren pictured...Maybe the historical society of the Philadelphia Athletics(which had a posted phone #) or the relatives know more about the history of his cards and or contracts??? It is worth an inquiry..see google Plank Athletics gettysburg key words and you will see some leads...Good Luck!!!
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My T206 Plank theory....and, what's your guess ?
Posted By: <b>David Hornish</b><p>Frank Wakefield's post was interesting but it should be pointed out Camden NJ is really a suburb of Philly and it where a lot of industry is (and was). Good stuff Frank.
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My T206 Plank theory....and, what's your guess ?
Posted By: <b>Ted Zanidakis</b><p>Thanks for mentioning the A's Historical Society, they are only 45 mins. away from where<br /> I live here in Pennsy. I will go there this week and do some research on Eddie Plank.<br /><br />TED Z
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My T206 Plank theory....and, what's your guess ?
Posted By: <b>Ted Zanidakis</b><p>Thank you for your very well-researched and detailed presentation which supports my Plank theory.<br /><br /> It's very interesting how this trio of Phila. A's players (Bender, Davis and Plank) made the rounds in <br />these products.<br />I initiated this Thread with the intention of encouraging some brainstorming on this topic. I really <br />expected to take some "flack" on my thoughts on this subject; however, I have been, for the most<br /> part, quite pleased with the response. And, especially from you, Frank. You really know how to dig <br />deep into a subject and reveal the facts.....I like your style.<br /><br />TED Z <br />
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My T206 Plank theory....and, what's your guess ?
Posted By: <b>Frank Wakefield</b><p>As I went to bed, with visions of baseball cards dancing in my head, I had another thought.<br /><br />Breisch Williams signed some players in 1903 and 1904. American Caramel was formed in 1898, and consolidated other candy companies in Philadelphia, including Breisch Williams. AC just kept the brand out there. So it was American Caramel who signed those players. And that would have been long before the American Tobacco Trust came on the scene.<br /><br />Frank.
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My T206 Plank theory....and, what's your guess ?
Posted By: <b>Ted Zanidakis</b><p>You keep coming up with some great stuff....I am really impressed.<br /><br />But, I hope you don't blame me for keeping you from sleeping ?<br /><br />TED Z
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My T206 Plank theory....and, what's your guess ?
Posted By: <b>Pennsylvania Ted</b><p>Are you saying the E107 cards were produced in Philadelphia ?<br /><br />I have never been able to find out where they were.<br /><br />TED Z
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My T206 Plank theory....and, what's your guess ?
Posted By: <b>Frank Wakefield</b><p>Well yes sir, kinda.<br /><br />BW was a predecessor company to American Caramel. AC was a conglomeration of several caramel companies that joined together. One of their purchases was Mr. Hershey's Lancaster Caramel Co, Hershey took the money from that to build his new, state of the art, chocolate factory in his created town, which is now known as Hershey.<br /><br />BW could have had the cards printed in NY, or anywhere. but the candy company that distributed them was in Pennsylvania.
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My T206 Plank theory....and, what's your guess ?
Posted By: <b>Ted Zanidakis</b><p>You are a wealth of knowledge, Until now, I have never been able to find out where<br />Breisch-Williams originated from. That's more great stuff, Frank.....keep it going and<br />we'll solve this mystery yet.<br /><br />This Friday I'm dropping in at the Phila. A's Historical Society (Hatboro, PA). They're<br />about 45 mins. southwest of where we live along the Delaware River. I will see what<br /> they have in their archives on our new-found hero.....Eddie Plank.<br /><br />TED Z
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My T206 Plank theory....and, what's your guess ?
Posted By: <b>Frank Wakefield</b><p>Some Philadelphia historical society or library will probably have a file on Breisch Williams, American Caramel, and all of that stuff, too.<br /><br />I'd never thought that stuff through. But it kinda makes sense, doesn't it? BW first in 1903. Easy for AC to follow. ATT got there too late, at least to sign Plank, I bet.
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My T206 Plank theory....and, what's your guess ?
Posted By: <b>Ted Zanidakis</b><p>There is a 4th member of the Phila. A's team that we have overlooked in this discussion....and his<br /> name is Eddie Collins. He is also in the 1st series of the American Caramel set. But, is absent from<br />the 1st series of the T206 set. He is subsequently portrayed in the 350 series of the T206 set<br />(along with many other A's players). This T206 series, it has been determined, was issued in 1910.<br />Eddie Collins had one of his better seasons in 1909, batting .346. <br /><br />I think we are convinced that Am. Car. had the rights to these A's players for the years 1908-1909;<br /> after which, it was anyone's ballgame.<br /><br />And, speaking about Collins......let's put Jimmy into the "mix". He ended his Major League career with<br /> the A's (1907 - 1908).....why wasn't Jimmy in the Am. Car. set ?<br /><br />And, incidently, he is portrayed in the Breisch Williams set with Boston (AL).<br /><br />I will anticipate your thoughts on all this.<br /><br />TED Z<br />
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My T206 Plank theory....and, what's your guess ?
Posted By: <b>Ted Zanidakis</b><p>Just returned from the A's Historical Society and cannot tell you much more than we already know.<br /><br />The A's expert that's usually there, wasn't today....but, I got his Tel #.<br />Those that were there mainly have BB cards, memorabilia, and lots and lots of photos of all the A's<br />players from day one.<br /><br />Anyhow, hopefully Max (the expert) can provide us some "good stuff". So, this is just a start in the<br />quest for thr truth.<br /><br />TED Z
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My T206 Plank theory....and, what's your guess ?
Posted By: <b>Brian Weisner</b><p> Hi Ted,<br /> I was wondering when you were going to get to Collins. Old "College boy" might have appeared in the 150 series, if the Proof card of him batting had ever been put into production.....<br /><br />I think you guys are on the right track, as I have always thought it had more to do with money than a broken printing plate.<br /><br /><br /> Keep going Brian
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My T206 Plank theory....and, what's your guess ?
Posted By: <b>Ted Zanidakis</b><p>I am surprised, too....that I left Collins out of the initial analysis.<br /><br />Better late than never, however.<br /><br />TED Z
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My T206 Plank theory....and, what's your guess ?
Posted By: <b>Pennsylvania Ted</b><p>I have never seen the Eddie Collins "proof" card. Do you have it, or a picture of it ?<br /><br />And, perhaps T206 was going to include this card in the 150 Series, but American Caramel<br />stopped them.....just as my theory suggests what happened to the Eddie Plank card.<br /><br />Look forward to your response,<br /> TED Z
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My T206 Plank theory....and, what's your guess ?
Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Ted- the Collins is pictured in Heitman's "The Monster" on page five, between two photos of Farrah Fawcett. I always wondered what that was all about.
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My T206 Plank theory....and, what's your guess ?
Posted By: <b>Pennsylvania Ted</b><p>My understanding regarding the Farah pix is that Dennis Eckes was the one, who<br /> inserted them in "The Monster".....I guess he was quite fascinated with her.<br />But then, who wasn't back in the late '70s after her calender pictures ?<br /><br />It was Dennis, who did the publishing of "The Monster" for Bill.<br /><br />TED Z
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My T206 Plank theory....and, what's your guess ?
Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Being fascinated by her is one thing, but putting her picture all over a monograph on T206's is completely out of place...it's as bad as talking about Seinfeld on a vintage baseball card chatboard <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>
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My T206 Plank theory....and, what's your guess ?
Posted By: <b>Clint</b><p>Picture of the Collins from Leland's 2000 auction catalog. Didn't Mastro sell a group of Minor League proofs as well?<img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1168710186.JPG">
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My T206 Plank theory....and, what's your guess ?
Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Yes- Mastro sold eight proofs of previously unknown players. A few had their names written on them, others may be unidentified forever. I think that was one of the most fascinating T206 discoveries of them all.
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My T206 Plank theory....and, what's your guess ?
Posted By: <b>Brian Weisner</b><p> Hi Clint,<br /> The Collins card sold in the April 2000 Leland's auction for I think 25,000, but I'm not sure. It was part of the Charlie Sheen collection I think...<br /><br /><br /> Barry,<br /> I think Keith bought the other group of unknowns from Mastro and identified them in an article for VCBC called "Eight Men in". To my knowledge they were all Southern Leaguers. I'll have to drag out the Magazine.<br /><br /> Be well Brian
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My T206 Plank theory....and, what's your guess ?
Posted By: <b>Brian Weisner</b><p>Yes, the VCBC issue is #23 with Joe Doyle on the cover. Th cards were not part of the 1973 proof find, but part of a large dealer lot consigned to Mastro. The cards don't have captions, but a few had hand written names on them, which were for the most part wrong. <br /><br /> Here is a list of the cards Keith added:<br /><br />1. James "champ" Osteen Montgomery<br />2. John "lazy jack" Lee Jacksonville<br />3. Joe Pepe Montgomery<br />4. Fleet Mayberry Danville<br />5. Andy Roth Jacksonville<br />6. John Forbes Alcock Chattanooga<br />7. Harre Meek Chattanooga<br />8. Tim Dywer<br /><br /><br />Great article, must read.
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My T206 Plank theory....and, what's your guess ?
Posted By: <b>Pennsylvania Ted</b><p>CLINT<br /><br />Thanks much for displaying the Eddie Collins T206 proof card.<br /><br />It's too bad they didn't issue it....every HOFer deserves a Portrait, and either a Batting, or Fielding,<br />or Pitching pose of him in this set.<br /><br />Tris Speaker and "Big Ed" Walsh are other HOFers depicted as a Major Leaguers, who had only one<br /> card issued of them.<br /><br />TED Z
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My T206 Plank theory....and, what's your guess ?
Posted By: <b>Frank Wakefield</b><p>Well I attempted to work on some of the A's, seeing who was in which sets...<br /><br />Baker, Barry, Bender, E Collins, H Davis, Sunny Jim Dygert ('cause I liked him and he was the 3rd T206 I ever got), Krause, Lord (he was team captain and a famous player of the day), Mack, Oldring, and Plank.<br /><br />It is about like the E vs T analysis I did before. Bender, the Indian, is in everything. I just figure he signed or agreed to anything if it involved him getting money. Only these guys are series 150 T206: Bender, H Davis, Oldring and Plank.<br /><br />E90-1 has most of these guys, same for E95/6. E106 from 1915 has most of the ones still playing. E107 from 1903/4 was before some of these guys were in the majors, it has Bender, H Davis, and Plank. (Gotta love E107 predating E106 by about 11 years.)<br /><br />All of those guys are in T206 except for Mack. Realistically most of the "managers" in T206 are really in there because of the players they were, not for managing. Mack is in E95/6 as a true manager. I was tickled when I got that card...<br /><br />All of the guys who were playing were in T208, a non Tobacco Trust issue. And Bender, Collins, H Davis, Lord and Plank are in T204, another non Trust issue.<br /><br /><br />So that exercise didn't yield much of anything new, but does reaffirm in my mind that Ted really has something... Plank signed with BW (the predecessor to American Caramel), before ATT had T206s out. T206 must have presumed they'd get Plank to sign. The college guy either honored his American Caramel deal, or asked for piles of money that ATT didn't want to pay, so ATT pulled his card.<br /><br />Otherwise, it was one odd mysterious break in a printing plate to lose just that one card of Plank, and what amazing quality control to keep all of the cracked Planks out of circulation.... nope, can't believe it.<br /><br />Frank.<br /><br />
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My T206 Plank theory....and, what's your guess ?
Posted By: <b>Ted Zanidakis</b><p>FRANK W<br /><br />At this point, it's apparent that only you and I remain interested in this subject. And,<br /> I don't think we can further this theory much more, until we get some documented<br /> proof.<br />You have done a lot of "digging" into, in order to provide further insight in support of<br /> this theory, and I really appreciate your time and effort....we've had a great "run".<br />But, I was hoping that we could get more of a variety of ideas on this mystery......<br /> other than the usual "broken plate" myth. Anyhow, when substantive Threads on this<br /> Forum run this long, members just start to tune out.<br /><br />In a subsequent post, I will summarize all our thoughts and findings.<br /><br />TED Z
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My T206 Plank theory....and, what's your guess ?
Posted By: <b>Ted Zanidakis</b><p>I got a chance to do some research at the Philadelphia Library on this topic. So, check<br />out my new "follow-up" Thread on this Plank theory, as it provides some very insightful <br />circumstances that may eventually prove to be supportive of this theory.<br /><br />TED Z
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