Report of the January 25 NYC Hobby Forum
 

Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Thank you for your offer Leon but I am not sure I agree that here is a good place to start. If this is done, I would cherry pick the collectors who have a genuine interest in this and avoid the nay-sayers and attack dogs.

Report of the January 25 NYC Hobby Forum
 

Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Jim- cherry picking the members sounds a bit elitist. We have to assume that anyone who joins would have the same interest of keeping things on the up and up. Count me in as one of them.

Report of the January 25 NYC Hobby Forum
 

Posted By: <b>Tom Boblitt</b><p>Thought that a little too but I can see Jim's point about keeping it moving forward. Don't get rid of people with dissenting views though as long as they are constructive in presentation. Like Leon, I remember the Barry Halper thing or something like that many years ago but wasn't really in a position to care then. I think, given the HUGE amount of money involved now, something like this might have more movement--especially, like Leon said, with the advent of the internet........<br /><br />

Report of the January 25 NYC Hobby Forum
 

Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Like any organization, it needs a stated purpose and an agenda of how it will get things done. At this point there are many of us who agree in spirit, but nobody who actually understands how it might work.

Report of the January 25 NYC Hobby Forum
 

Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Barry,<br /><br />By keeping it open to all, we will have the following:<br /><br />1)Those who think that grading cards is the root of all evil and we are only interested in the high-grade collector will sound off in their usual way.<br /><br />2)Those who are buddies with certain dealers will criticize me as running an inquisition when I ask dealers for information and suggest I should leave Net54.<br /><br />3)Those who just don't like the direction things are going will attack me and if you forget who these people are I can provide the out of the blue attacks from those I have never spoken to before.<br /><br />Also Barry, there is the sense that it should be collectors only. I know you think like a collector but I don't think at this point at least auction houses and graders ought to be in the discussion.<br /><br />If you all disagree and want to battle it out with the above groups--fine--count me out.<br /><br />If you want to work behind the scenes and make things happen or be part of a dinner group where people are committed to change going in then I will be a part of.<br /><br />Jim

Report of the January 25 NYC Hobby Forum
 

Posted By: <b>Dave Hornish</b><p>I am actually going through something very similar to this with my professional association at the moment. By way of background, I am (and I am not making this up) an average adjuster by trade, which means I have training and expertise to adjust hull and machinery claims on cargo and passenger vessels (average means "loss" in our parlance). Our core professional association is about 130 years old but we have associate members who are marine insurance brokers (a group I also belong to), underwriters, lawyers and other "interested people". For 115 years things ran pretty smooth from what I have seen but we have been trying for the last fifteen years to reorganize our association to be more inclusive to the associate members and it is not working out very well, primarily because each group is trying to inject too much into their argument.<br /><br />I think when you talk about a collectors association, you are really talking about a setting a collective, definable, mimimum standard for ethical behavior. It seems you could have say three or four categories of collectors (probably by era, such as pre-war, post war, post 1980, etc., however seems appropriate), a group of grading co. reps, dealers and auctioneers and possibly publishers and webmasters or maybe even boards such as this represented and come up with a basic definition for conduct and deportment. The big problem I saw when the NSCCA collectors association (or whatever it was called when forming in the 80's) is that it was too ambitious.<br /><br />If you could name a short set of goals, such a what an acceptable card alteration is, what an honest auction listing should include, perhaps a method of dispute resolution, some guidelines for communication and a few other things it could work and be built upon. If it turns into collectors vs. graders or the like it is certainly doomed. We already have a group or association of collectors on this board from what I see, albeit in a loose sense. <br /><br />You would probably start with an exploratory committee and need a chairperson, then form an executive committee with secretary and treasurer, add an implementation committee or membership committee, plus start a by-laws committee. A press officer would be a good idea too if that function is not handled by the secretary. Each committee should have representative membership from each group and you need a process to nominate people for the committees. Each committee should have a way to break ties, either through odd-numbered membership or procedure. I would charge minimal dues ($5 or $10) to keep out the trolls but free membership could work too with proper screening. If that can be pulled off (you probably need 18-20 good people eventually, serving staggered terms so there is continuity))then you will have something.<br /><br />Just my two cents and I am sure there are numerous views on setup and what groups to include. I belong to three different professional associations and have served on all the committees of my own twice and all are run this way. The difference maker is that the best have forceful people at the top that are willing to listen but are also decisive. Otherwise, nothing is accomplished.<br /><br />Food for thought....<br /><br />Dave

Report of the January 25 NYC Hobby Forum
 

Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Dave,<br /><br />Very helpful--are you interested in taking a leadership role in this?<br /><br />Jim

Report of the January 25 NYC Hobby Forum
 

Posted By: <b>Todd Schultz</b><p>you make some excellent and level-headed points. Also, let me add my belief that the group needs to be led, at least intially, by someone who is strong at building consensus. There will be divergent points made, no doubt, but the key is to keep the rhetoric to a minimum and focus on some realistic, short-term goals as a foundation upon which to build. Perhaps some perks for membership could be considered as well.

Report of the January 25 NYC Hobby Forum
 

Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Jim- you make a good point that has crossed my mind too...as a full time dealer and only casual collector (and I do not collect cards), perhaps my participating further in this could be construed as a conflict of interest. While I am happy to help, if you or anyone else feel it is inappropriate I will back off, and I say this with no hard feelings.

Report of the January 25 NYC Hobby Forum
 

Posted By: <b>E, Daniel</b><p>Nicely laid out.<br /><br />I'll paypal my dues (not more than $20 i hope <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>) the minute such an organization is running.<br /><br />It's been asked to what purpose an umbrella association serves?<br /><br />As all such groups, it serves like-minded peoples.<br />Why does it work? Because people buy into it, literally.<br />If the ideals are such that they speak to you, and the principles are those you would like to practice and have practiced with other hobbyists/members, then it works. Organizations exist because of the very natural inclination to join like minded peoples to share common passions or interests, or because of inherent inequality in power structures especially concerning health and safety.<br /><br />If you get the basics right and keeping it simple as David has laid out, then it works. You don't need to chase people to join as much as allow the concept and idea to marinate amongst hobbyists, and it will draw similar minded people, some of them the 'big players' who will add interest and a percieved legitimacy of concept. And over time, if the concept has been well worked and is honestly good, the sheer weight of opinion will encourage the community to a greater extent to want to be a part of it.<br />And why will it affect practices?<br />Because those who join will want it to. Those whose activities are deemed inappropriate for the community will find themselves outside of their niche, or cash cow. I truly believe in almost every way it will be self policing, and where clear fraud has been committed the legal system can be used to correct the wrongs, and where the activity simply blurrs the principles of the association, that person can be excluded from membership.<br /><br />I sure as heck know that I would search first, buy happiest, and sell most comfortably to people who shared at least my basic understanding of reasonably appropriate behavior in the hobby.<br /><br /><br />Daniel

Report of the January 25 NYC Hobby Forum
 

Posted By: <b>Dave Hornish</b><p>Well, if it comes to anything and my help is wanted, I would be willing to serve as an advisor on how to set things up for now, at least, as opposed to a more active role. I am certainly not campaigning! <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br />At present I am 4 months into a three year term on a committee with my professional association (www.usaverageadjusters.org if you want to lull yourself to sleep) and would probably not be able to devote enough time to a full committee or such (if elected, i will not serve?) here but would consider such participation at a later date.<br /><br />I am happy to offer advice though, if that is desired as I have been through executive, membership and nomination committees, plus some ad hoc ones too, almost continuosly for the last dozen years.<br /><br />Personally, I think you need a well-known hobby name to be chairman as some cachet is helpful. I forgot to add you need a lawyer for legal advice and will probably need D&O insurance unless membership rules specifically state no suing of directors is alllowed. Our association directors got sued about ten years ago and we were glad to have the D&O coverage! I think premium for D & O cover for a non-professional association would run $1,500 or so annually and I could help with contacts for that as well. Dang, you need dues after all if you buy insurance. Can't escape the lawyers and the underwriters......<br /><br />Dave

Report of the January 25 NYC Hobby Forum
 

Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Todd, I agree that the leader of said organization should get some perks -- perhaps some free submissions at PSA? <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>