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Posted By: <b>EcardCollector</b><p>The issue of the integrity of the card is brought up over and over. I understand removing glue or a light pencil mark where the writing device didn't press into the card, but removing a wrinkle by somehow pressing it out of view for a time to then rush it into a grader is the most despicable kind of abuse of the grading system. Integrity of the card? How about integrity of the cards consigner and owner?

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Posted By: <b>Doug Allen</b><p>Folks....have you not read what I said. In the beginning of this dialogue I made reference to what I believe to be acceptable in the industry and by the grading services. I also indicated the practice of pressing out a light wrinkle happens quite infrequently. Now "stay away from all cards graded 7 to 9"...and "running them to the grading service before the crease reappears". In my opinion you are being a bit extreme.<br /><br />Here is what I will do...I will describe this INFREQUENT practice to both SGC and PSA and see if they find it acceptable. If they believe it is not we will stop immediately. <br /><br />Here is how I will pose it....<br /><br />Dear Joe/Dave;<br /><br />From time to time when handling cards for grading we identify a light surface wrinkle. The type of wrinkle I am talking about is kind you can only see if you turn it at a certain angle to the light and does not go through the entire card. We have employed the practice of applying light pressure to the surface in order to remove the wrinkle. We believe the practice to be permanent and undetectable. Permanent as we have never experienced a re-appearance of the wrinkle and undetectable as as it leaves no trace on the surface of the card and there is no break in the paper.<br /><br />Although we believe this practice to be commonplace we wanted to confirm that the practice as described would not be categorized in your grading standards as "altering" a card. We beleieve alterations have been very clearly spelled out when it comes to trimming a card, bleaching/cleaning and removal of deep creases that change the gloss and surface of the card. <br /><br />I value your feedback.<br /><br />Sincerely,<br /><br />Doug Allen<br />President<br />Mastro Auctions

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Posted By: <b>cmoking</b><p>I'm happy about that letter. <br /><br />I understand there will be those that will still think removal of wrinkles is still card altering, even if PSA and SGC agree with Mastro. But if all three agree, I am perfectly comfortable going forward. I am also very happy that if they don't agree that Mastro will stop those activities.

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Posted By: <b>Joann</b><p>I agree with Doug here. Regardless of what anyone thinks of the practice of removing light surface wrinkles, this thread has definitely blown everything he's said about the practice out of proportion. He said it best above - it's a rare practice. Now people sound like it's rampant and continuing theft or something. <br /><br />We all like to scream and b--- about how the media makes blows up issues and makes days of news from nothing, and yet here we are engaging in the same practice. It's almost like some (not all) posters want there to be a scandal, or something that feels scandal-like, or something to rally around in some kind of protest. Doug listed removing wrinkles among the things Mastro will do prior to grading. Some see that as altering - I get that. But stop acting like they are doctoring every card or practicing intentional ripoffs as a routine business practice.<br /><br />For my money, I think that Doug is best off leaving things where they are right now. He tried to do a decent thing and answer questions that we all have had for awhile. He even seemed to be prepared to accept honest disagreement with some of the philosophies Mastro has. But some of the exaggerated accusations? Shameful. Good luck getting anyone else to answer anything honestly. <br /><br />I appreciate those posters that have asked genuine questions, and stated opposing positions with some sense of balance and constructive tone - this post is not directed at any of those comments.<br /><br />My two cent's worth.<br /><br />Joann

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Posted By: <b>Peter_Spaeth</b><p>Says a crease OR wrinkle cannot be pressed out. So at least on the face of it there is still a disparity between PSA's published standards and Doug's statement regarding what PSA considers acceptable. Hopefully his letter will clarify the situation. Personally I would be surprised to see PSA publicly endorse pressing out even light wrinkles or laying down corners, but I don't profess to know how they view these things. EDITED TO ADD unless I am not looking in the right place SGC does not define "altered" on its website.

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Posted By: <b>Jeff</b><p> I suppose a card with a bit of wax or tobacco would be analogous to a car with tar on a quarter panel. No harm no foul. But a card with a wrinkle is analogous to a car that has been in an accident and the repair ought to be disclosed to any potential buyer. Especially if the repair is temporary. <br /><br /> My worry is that the card doctors don't hang on to their doctored cards long enough to know whether their repair is permanent. They fix and flip. Has anyone here pressed out a wrinkle and watched the card for a few years?

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Posted By: <b>jackgoodman</b><p>--"My worry is that the card doctors don't hang on to their doctored cards long enough to know whether their repair is permanent. They fix and flip. Has anyone here pressed out a wrinkle and watched the card for a few years?"<br /><br />Ok, I'm guessing that the collective board has purchased a "few" cards over the years. Has anyone, I repeat, anyone found a slabbed card in their collection that all of a sudden developed a crease that they know wasn't there when they purchased it? Anyone?

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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>We went over the "reappearance" of a wrinkle before, in the thread I had started about creases/wrinkles. Only one person, I don't remember who, said they had ever seen one come back. I have never heard of anyone else saying they knew one had reappeared. My guess is that if one did come back it would be on a heavy crease that had been worked on...not a surface wrinkle. If you think about the paper bouncing back it would seem it would have to be deep to do that. I have 0 experience with this stuff though....so maybe I am off???

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Posted By: <b>cmoking</b><p>The problem with seeing a wrinkle coming back is that it is very difficult to know exactly where the new wrinkle came from before hand. For example, let's say a wrinkle comes back today on the middle of a particular card. It's a small wrinkle. Well, did you miss the wrinkle 6 months ago? Or did it come back? Did you scour the card every centimeter to make sure there wasn't a wrinkle? Now, if you know exactly where to look to make sure it doesn't come back (i.e. if you were the wrinkle presser), then you'd know. But if you are the collector, you'd probably be scratching your head thinking: geez, did I miss this one or did it come back?

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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>I don't really collect high grade (7 and above) but if I did I would put a magnifying glass to every millimeter of every card I bought that was high grade. I doubt I would miss too many wrinkles that way. If I saw an obvious one later then I would know it came back. Not sure how else you could do it...

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Posted By: <b>cmoking</b><p>The cards I'm talking about through my personal experience are/were 5s, 4s and 3s. And although my eye is probably a lot poorer than yours, I looked at them very carefully months ago. Maybe they were there when I first bought them. Maybe someone with an eye better than mine would have caught them at that time. It's too late now to know.<br /><br />FWIW, I haven't noticed any 'new' wrinkles/creases with my 7s, 8s or 9s. They are still fine as far as I know.

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Posted By: <b>Corey R. Shanus</b><p>Kudos to Doug for repeatedly coming on this thread and responding to all posed questions. Regardless whether one agrees with everything he said, I respect tremendously that he had the courage to state for the record his company's position on these issues, and indeed to be willing to change some policies to address stated concerns. I personally agree with those who state that pressing out a wrinkle is an alteration of a card, but I respect that others may reasonably disagree. In my view, as with so many other issues concerning reasonable disagreement over what is and is not proper, the simplest solution can be described in one word -- disclosure. For those who don't feel/care that a card is now graded an 8 because a wrinkle has been pressed out, those people will disregard the disclosure and bid as if nothing improper had been done to the card. For those who feel such a pressing out of the wrinkle has a material impact on the integrity/value of the card, they will have been forewarned and can bid accordingly (or not bid at all). Nobody will have been mislead and all will have the necessary information to bid based on his/her assessment of the value of the card.<br /><br />I would also like to reemphasize a point made by others on this thread. I would like all the auction houses/individual dealers who cater to the viewer base of this Board to respond directly to the questions which formed the genesis of this thread. While I appreciate that some might be a bit reluctant to engage in a public chatboard, the fact remains that the issues discussed in this thread go to the heart of the integrity of card collecting, and it seems to me that if a company/individual wants to solicit our business, they should publicly take a position on these issues.

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Posted By: <b>Boccabella</b><p>I'm confused as to how you press out a "surface wrinkle" in the first place. I've never known that to be possible but quite clearly it is. If the auction companies and anyone else who has done it will explain the process, perhaps a paper conservator could answer the question of 1)how likely it is that wrinkle would return, 2) how such a process is viewed in other genres of collecting and 3) whether that is disclosed.

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Corey- may I respond to one of your points. You say that there may be a buyer out there who buys PSA-8's but wouldn't care if a crease was pressed out, therefore he can go on buying as if nothing wrong was done to the card. My question: considering the extravagant prices people pay for PSA-8's, and we all know that the set registry crowd has taken these prices into the stratosphere- do you think there is a single purchaser in the PSA-8 universe who wouldn't care? If I were guessing, I would say 100% of them care, and emphatically so.

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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Once again, thank you for your direct answers--you are doing a good job defining Mastro's practices.<br /><br />I don't mean this question in a bad way Doug but have you discussed these issues with all the guys that work for you that are responsible for buying. Is it possible that you have one set of values and that one of the five guys who works for you has another? If this is ridiculous just stop here and say its ridiculous but if you are not sure I would appreciate it if you could confirm with the five guys mentioned earlier in this thread tthat none of their activities in improving cards go beyond what you have described as Mastro's business practices.<br /><br />Thank you.<br /><br />Jim<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>Peter_Spaeth</b><p>The problem with the disclosure solution as I see it is that while it might well work for a single transaction or a few cards, in the context of a huge auction, with numerous multiple-card lots, it really becomes somewhat impractical to identify everything that might have been done to "prepare" every single card in the auction for submission. Would disclosure also need to include, for example, each card's grading history -- that might well be important to a number of buyers. <br /><br />I think Doug has made a more than adequate blanket disclosure here of the types of practices he condones, and hopefully the grading services will weigh in as well in response to his letter/email. <br /><br />EDITED TO ADD Barry with due respect I think you are wrong, in my opinion there are lots of people whose decisions would not be impacted by knowing a wrinkle had been pressed out, etc., so long as the card was now graded.<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>joe</b><p>Good thread and thanks to Doug for explaining how and which creases are taken out of the cards. I would Like Leland's and REA to address this issue, I think we would get the same answers though. Even though the auction houses might stop this practice, everday collectors and dealers probably will not, so you might still be buying cards with creases removed. Even from the same auction house we are discussing here. As far as looking at cards months or years later, I think the 2nd, 3rd or 100th time we look at a card we will so more things wrong with the card each time. The flaws were probably there all the time.<br /><br />Joe <br><br>Ty Cobb, Spikes flying!

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Peter- keep in mind that people are typically paying thousands of dollars per card for PSA-8's. Part of the psychology that drives this market is that what they are getting in return is the finest possible quality. I don't think a card with a crease ironed out would qualify. I stand behind my opinion.

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Posted By: <b>Doug Allen</b><p>Jim,<br /><br />I communicate with my guys every day and we are all on the same page as to what is acceptable. Ultimately what they do is my responsibility so I keep pretty close tabs.<br /><br />Regards,<br />Doug

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Posted By: <b>Todd Schultz</b><p>that it is impractical to disclose. First, we have been told that the number of cards actually worked on is minimal, such that some here are overreacting to what is not really a problem. If it affects so few cards, it should not be a problem to offer disclosure.<br /><br />As for grading history, I am not suggesting that an auction house has some sort of affirmative duty to investigate the card's prior grades, but if the card is resubmitted by the house itself and obtains a higher grade, then that should be disclosed IF the card has had ANY kind of work on it.<br /><br />As for large lots, I seriously doubt that bunches of the cards in such lots have work done by the house, but if so, there should be disclosure of at least the type of work done generally, if not card by card. Anything done to enhance the value should be disclosed, and I disagree with Doug when he says he is cnfident that his company's practices would pass scrutiny under the California statute.

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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Doug,<br /><br />I think I am running out of questions but one mor--why don't you use GAI and how would you compare GAI with SGC and PSA.

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Posted By: <b>MikeU</b><p>It absolutely boggles my mind some of the critisism Doug has received. What other person of his stature has ever publicly noted their acceptable policies on this board? Or shared a letter they planned to send to the two biggest players in the grading industry to confirm acceptable practices? <br /><br />Several people have discussed a code of conduct or practices. One way to accelerate rate this process would be to boycott non-Mastro auctions, until their representatives post with the same sort of frankness in this thread as Doug has.<br /><br />The call out list of mute bystanders in no particular order:<br /><br />Rob Lifson<br />Lew Lipset<br />Joshua Leland Evans<br />David Kohler<br />Brian Drent<br />David Hunt<br />Bill Goodwin<br />Andy Madec<br />Chris Ivy<br />Bill Huggins<br />Memory Lane Staff Member<br /> <br /><br /><br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>I spoke with Dave Foreman (sp?) briefly today. He assured me that what we are arguing over is an issue but, in his words, "not even the tip of the iceberg". Trimming cards is far and away a more serious problem, according to him. Shaving millimeters and stretching etc....those are the real big issues. I think he also nailed it on the head as far as this wrinkle/crease situaion goes. His guarantee is fully standing for all cards in SGC slabs (for the time he has owned the company....don't want to comment on before he owned it). IF you buy an SGC88 card and then a wrinkle "reappears" then he will make it right. Whether that's buying it back or paying a difference or whatever. Unfortunately I am not sure of PSA or GAI's policy. So bottom line is that if you have a highly graded card in an SGC holder you are protected from what we are discussing. He is at a show today or we would have spoken longer....regards

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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>MikeU,<br /><br />That is a terrific idea--I am continuing the process.I would be in favor of boycotting those that do not respond.<br /><br />Leon,<br /><br />More info from Dave on trimming and how difficult it is to detect would be extremely helpful. Perhaps he would agree to even come on this board.<br /><br />I would also like to say that those of you who thought Leon would be reluctant to have comments on here that are at all critical of advertisers are being proven incorrect.<br /><br />Jim

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Posted By: <b>Frank Evanov</b><p>Some thoughts:<br /><br />Jim, thanks for starting this provocative thread.<br /><br />Doug, thanks for your numerous responses and candor. <br /><br />Saying that crease removal is infrequent offers me no comfort. In auctions with over a thousand cards, "infrequent" can mean dozens of cards and those posters who take solace that the practice is "rare" are only fooling themselves. I agree that Mastronet cannot provide this information on every card in their auction, but why do I not see a general statement in their auction introduction admitting that these practices are going on?<br /><br />I look forward to any PSA or SGC response to Doug's letter. I cannot imagine they would ever condone crease removal. If they did, they would be invalidating their own standards, in effect saying: if you do it well and we don't catch it, then it's OK.<br /><br />I have been a strong Mastronet customer over the years and I am very disappointed in the facts that have been presented here. I am asking myself whether I want to continue collecting and so far I am leaning towards a "no" answer.<br><br>Frank

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>I congratulate Doug for coming on here and being forthcoming. And like Corey said, while we may not all agree with his practices at least he had the balls to come on here and serve them up. I expect REA and the rest of the bunch to provide their positions on these issues as well. As for the shock that anyone would criticize Mastro or Doug, get real. This is America and this is a zillion dollar business. Tell me another business that does not provide transparency in the way they do things and I'll find you a company that will soon be out on its ass. Why should the large auction houses be any different? The lack of transparency in auction house practices - or any other business - has resulted in people going to prison (if you don't believe me ask Alfred Taubman). <br /><br />Finally, disclosure is the only antidote to our concerns. Let Mastro do whatever they want to the cards they sell - as long as they disclose it. I'd like to see that day come but I strongly doubt it ever will.

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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Frank,<br /><br />I would urge you to see this process through before making that decision. It is very discouraging however.<br /><br />Mastro's current auction seems to me to be their biggest and best card auction ever. I wonder if part of this is long-time card collectors becoming disgusted with all the card altering and restoration and saying I should get out now while the getting is good. <br /><br />Doug, I don't expect you to release the names of your sellers, although we can tell some of them from their position on the PSA Registry, but do you see a step up in long term collectors getting out of the hobby because of what is going on with trimming/alterating/restoration?<br /><br />Jim Crandell

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Jim, if you're getting any ideas let me know and I'll send a truck over to your house....

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Posted By: <b>Peter_Spaeth</b><p>Leon wrote: "Trimming cards is far and away a more serious problem, according to him. Shaving millimeters and stretching etc....those are the real big issues."<br /><br />Leon, a question for you, did Dave say anything about how easy or difficult this is to detect? That for me is the interesting question, whether the grading services have the resources, know how, and time to detect this type of trimming. I infer if he says it is a serious issue that it must be difficult to detect, but don't want to jump to conclusions.

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Posted By: <b>Jim Loewke</b><p>Barry Sloate response from November 24 2006, 10:10 AM <br /><br />Jay- I have no problem disclosing this in future auction catalogs, but a question I throw out to the board is does anybody care? Would anyone place less of a bid on an item because I owned it vs. a consignor? I am curious how people feel, so I invite all to respond.<br /><br />I am surprised that nobody else has a problem with this statement. I have bid, and fairly high also, on his material before, without knowing about this "practice". This should have been disclosed before the auction. I do not have any proof that he raised bids on his own items, be it to maximize profit or minimize loss on investment. But the absence of proof does not mean it did not happen. Regardless, this strikes me as a serious conflict of interest. There are no checks or balances in place to keep everything above board; how can we as bidders, be certain there is no "home shill bidding". If we are going to ask tough questions of Mastro and others, a regular poster like Barry should not be above reproach. Knowing this, I will think twice before bidding to win in his auctions.<br /><br />For the record, I want to repeat, that I have absolutely no proof of any improprieties by Mr. Sloate. Just a fair amount of discomfort.

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Posted By: <b>Peter_Spaeth</b><p>Obviously Barry did not disclose before because it is not the prevailing practice and noone ever suggested he should. The minute someone asked he was completely forthcoming. Any criticism of him is completely unjustified.

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Posted By: <b>Jim Loewke</b><p>It is very easy to see that it is a conflict of interest. Just because no one else inquired about it or the old cliche "everybody does it", doesn't make it right.

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Posted By: <b>Bottom of the Ninth</b><p>I would like to commend Doug on his decision to come here and post. I know that he is saying some things that many who read this board find unpalatable, at a minimum. And at this point, it should not come as a surprise to anyone here that most dealers not only endorse what Doug has described above as methods of maximizing grades, but also practice the procedures whenever possible. <br /><br />These processes are not just restricted to 7’s, 8’s and 9’s, by the way—far from it. 5% of the dealers/sellers will admit to it and the other virtually 90% will lie about it. Face it, if you are buying cards from a source other than the original owner, you are buying cards which have likely undergone some form of prep before being submitted for grading and sold to the public. That which Doug has described is actually fairly mild from what I know to be performed on cards to improve their appearance. <br /><br />The PSA Guidelines for the Altered Stock (posted by Peter Spaeth) is the same wording that appeared in the SMR over 10 years ago. Much has changed in the processes used and the results there of, with removing creases and wrinkles. When graders can DETECT (a very important qualification) a crease was attempted to be removed, the card will be rejected, hence the crease will not have been removed or it will have been removed leaving some type of collateral damage. If done properly, it is going to get past the graders. And in almost all cases, even if done improperly, the odds of a crease coming back are slim to none. <br /><br />The process of grading a card is normally very brief. No grader is going to reject a card for something they can no longer see even if they are specifically told (not realistic) that a crease was removed. If the crease is truly removed, by virtue of the process, you have left no evidence and the card is going to grade as it appears. Unless you are sending in a card that is worth thousands of dollars and assuming the graders know the value of the card they are grading, how involved can you expect a grader to get with a card they are being paid $10 or $15 to grade?<br /><br />Greg

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Posted By: <b>Peter_Spaeth</b><p>If anything, there is just as much or more incentive to "run up" consignments to show people your auction has clout and to get them to consign to you in the future -- not to mention the buyer's premium directly benefits the seller too. Your post is truly much ado about nothing, and to criticize someone who gave the information the minute it was suggested anyone cared is really unfair.<br /><br /> <br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>Jim Loewke</b><p>I made valid points without hystrionics or childish diatribes. As opinions go, they were fair statements backed up by reasons.

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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Greg,<br /><br />I have heard you say things to this effect before. <br /><br />I know you know a lot more and could be much more helpful in describing what is being done to cards should you choose to do so.<br /><br />Jim

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>To Jim Loewke- I have never been one to dodge direct questions and since you were an active bidder, I am happy to address your concerns in the best way I can. If anybody on the board doesn't like how I respond, feel free to speak your peace. First, I do know that there is a concern about auction houses putting their own material in with consignors. Here are a few thoughts: I'm not asking anyone to pass around the hat, but for a small time dealer like myself it is almost impossible to get consignments on a regular basis. I have made a business decision to buy whatever inventory I can, and when the opportunity arises that a couple of major consignments come my way, I can make sure I have enough material to put together at least a presentable sale. After all, the 84 lot auction I just conducted barely qualifies as an auction; it is small enough as it is. I have to compete with every multimillion dollar auction house out there, and to be perfectly frank, I don't know how much longer I will be doing this. I am kind of hanging on the edge of a cliff, and I suppose ebay will be the only way for me to go since I can sell one lot at a time without issue. If I didn't add my own material to round out an auction, I don't think I could put one together anymore.<br />That said, since I do buy material during the year, how do people feel I should sell it? Should I be giving it to another auction house and pay them a commission while I am struggling to get a presentable auction together myself?<br />Also, 90% of the items on ebay are probably owned by the seller. If one assumes that sellers are running up their own items, then why participate on ebay?<br />Finally, if I really were a scoundrel, couldn't I run up consignor's lots too? I will tell you there were several lots in my recent auction that underperformed and were at levels that I as a dealer gladly would have paid. Guess what- some conscientious bidders got some real good deals because they were paying attention.<br />If I left anything out, or if you disagree with anything I said, please feel free to keep those questions coming.

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Posted By: <b>Harry Wallace (HW)</b><p>I still do not understand what the big deal is about taking out a light wrinkle. To me it is no different than taking off a wax stain or erasing a light pencil mark. After all, if something that was not on the card when it was manufactured is removed, and there is NO way to tell, then there is nothing that we can do about it. I have witnessed several times at shows dealers speaking out loud saying that this "5" will grade an "8" as soon as the light wrinkle is taken out. It is as if they are looking at the card as if the wrinkle does not even exist.<br /><br />BUT, the thing that we should be more concerned with is not that Mastros is taking our a light wrinkle, but what about all of the cards that are consigned to ALL of the auction houses. From what dealers tell me, taking out a light wrinkle is extremely minor compared with what elso goes on out there by other dealers who actually own the cards. <br /><br />Are any of the auction houses or dealers that condemn taking out a wrinkle going to guarantee that none of the graded cards in their auctions have not had the same thing done to them? <br /><br />What about all of the cards that are already encapsulated that are being consigned to all of the auciton houses out there. I would bet that a light wrinkle removal is the least of the problems.

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Harry- if a graded card were consigned to me and it had a crease removed at an earlier date and the work was undetectable and the consignor either didn't know or chose not to disclose it, how would I or any other auction house know?

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Posted By: <b>Gilbert Maines</b><p>Oh how I hate the new age thrust upon me by the generation of my children. The age of taking offense, particularly where none was intended.<br /><br />Smack dab in the middle of this age, I run into something so offensive, that I almost feel offended by it - eventhough it has nothing to do with me:<br /><br />"I do not have any proof that he raised bids on his own items, be it to maximize profit or minimize loss on investment. But the absence of proof does not mean it did not happen. Regardless, this strikes me as a serious conflict of interest. There are no checks or balances in place to keep everything above board; how can we as bidders, be certain there is no "home shill bidding".<br /><br />Dear author of this, I ask you what proof do you have that Barry Sloate is not an extraterrestial? Do you find his planetary origin suspect simply because it is unproven (and until now unchallenged)?<br /><br />Your convoluted thinking is astounding to me. We have come to know Barry through his posts and other sources during the past few years. To even infer that this man could be guilty of an act of impropriety in his auction, is a testament to your lack of skills in the assessment of individuals, personalities and related subjects.<br /><br />Barry, please forgive them. For they are at a loss.

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Gil- I appreciate the support but I do not feel I am above answering the same questions any other full time dealer would have to face and I do not take offense at Jim's inquiry. The fact that I post regularly does not offer me any special privileges. I'll take the heat like anyone else. But thanks again.

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Posted By: <b>Frank Evanov</b><p>I heartily second Gilbert's comments. How did Barry get involved in this? Let's get back on track here.<br /><br />A question: Nowhere in the Mastro Auction Catalog do I see any statement advising bidders that certain items in the auction have been subject to crease and stain removal. How come?<br><br>Frank

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Posted By: <b>MikeU</b><p>"IF you buy an SGC88 card and then a wrinkle "reappears" then he will make it right. Whether that's buying it back or paying a difference or whatever. Unfortunately I am not sure of PSA or GAI's policy. So bottom line is that if you have a highly graded card in an SGC holder you are protected from what we are discussing."<br /><br />Who was the person a few days back that bought a PSA card that was overgraded and wanted to crucify the dealer? When the buyer called PSA to discuss, they said that since he was not the submitter he was out of luck. <br /><br />Whoever that guy was/is, take a look at the above statement from the majority owner of SGC!<br /><br />Sorry about going OT a little bit. Wait it is not OT. A big part, if not a huge part, of this is the burden on 3rd party graders to stand by their product.

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Posted By: <b>Peter_Spaeth</b><p>One must only disclose material facts. According to Doug, that isn't material. QED.

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Posted By: <b>warshawlaw</b><p>The issue is not one of the "young-uns" going astray, it is a much older and more established concept called avoiding the appearance of impropriety. We trust the auctioneer not to shill bid us. Just like a judge, an auctioneer has to avoid the appearance that things are not above-board. The problem with in-house consignments is very straightforward and was well articulated in the post: If an auctioneer is selling its own stuff and is running the auction there is no way to verify that shilling is not taking place. Even if the auction is conducted 100% on the level, the potential for improper acts is there and will deter some people from participating. Don't you feel better knowing that an auctioneer prohibits consignors from bidding on their own items? I know I do. This is the same concept.

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Adam- what is preventing any auctioneer from shilling in any context, when you really get down to it? I run a small auction out of my apartment- couldn't the entire auction be nothing but a shill, if that were my intent? If an auction house prevented a consignor from bidding, couldn't he just ask a friend to bid for him? Couldn't people sitting in the audience of a live auction be shilling for a consignor. There is no auction system ever devised that can prevent shilling. So what is the answer?

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Posted By: <b>Harry Wallace (HW)</b><p>"Harry- if a graded card were consigned to me and it had a crease removed at an earlier date and the work was undetectable and the consignor either didn't know or chose not to disclose it, how would I or any other auction house know?"<br /><br />If something is being done to a card (removing a wax stain, a light pencil mark or a light crease) an no one can tell, then what are we to do?<br /><br />I have two hypothetical questions for the dealers out there.<br /><br />If a card was consigned to you and you were told that a light crease has been taken out, but there is absolutely no evidence of it, what would you do?<br /><br />What are your thoughts on removing a pencil mark on the back of a card. Again, if it is done and no one can tell. If you had an Old Judge Anson in near mint to mint condition and it had a pencil mark on the back. In order to get the most money for it, it would have to be graded. Would you remove the pencil mark first and get it graded or leave it on.<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>As far as removing the pencil mark, I have done that myself and I think we are in general agreement that that is not altering a card. I believe even the grading services would accept that. As far as a consignor telling me that a crease was ironed out but it is no longer detectable, that's a trickier one as I have never confronted it. I think I would explain to the consignor that if he prefers I mention it, he will get significantly less for it. If he agreed, then I have nothing to lose and everything to gain by revealing that information. I suppose if he didn't want it known, he wouldn't volunteer it to me. If that's a long answer, the short one is yes, I would disclose it. But it's never happened before.

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Posted By: <b>Jim Loewke</b><p>Reading comprehension doesn't appear to be your strong suit Gilbert. You can't learn something if you refuse to acknowledge the concept. If anything, your tortured argument about aliens only makes your postition look even more silly. I have read on this board many opinions ripping auction houses, about letting consignors bid on their own material. Well, when the auction house is the consignor, the same scepticism should exist and be rationally discussed. Apparently you and Peter did not get the memo about civil discourse. It is easy and phony to call out the big targets, monstrous cash cows like Mastro, but the rules should be applied the same when it is a small time auctioneer and/or friend like Sloate.<br /><br />To your credit Barry, you have chosen to argue your point in a mature manner by providing, well thought out counterpoints; unlike the childish and baseless arguments submitted by others. I also presented arguments and opinions with reasons to back them up; it is a shame you were the only one who could do the same.

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Posted By: <b>ramram</b><p>I guess I just don't get some of this. If I'm selling a car, I must disclose any known defects but I'm sure going to wash and wax the car and make it as presentable as possible. Why wouldn't somebody do the same to make a card look better? Similarly, if I own a card that could be made more aesthetically pleasing for my own sake, why wouldn't I clean up any dirt, glue or minor wrinkles? As I've always said, collect for content not quality and you'll be much more satisfied.<br /><br />Rob M.

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Posted By: <b>Anonymous</b><p>.

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Posted By: <b>ramram</b><p>Cleaning your car and rolling back the odometer? And that's similar how??<br /><br />So, do you sell your car with mud on it?<br /><br />Rob M.

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Posted By: <b>E, Daniel</b><p>regarding wrinkles/creases, and not dirt.<br />Clearly, every post thus far perhaps less Jay Behrens, has focused on the issue of wrinkles and or creases in cards that are purposely removed.<br />Thus, the analogy must run, as a card collects wrinkles and creases by being in an accident significant enough to paper/card to cause a break in the continuous flow of substrate, similarly in a car the only comparison is an accident that 'wrinkles' or 'creases' the sheet metal.<br />When a card is slabbed or presented as having no creases or wrinkles, the understanding is it has never had an encounter serious enough to cause that damage, and is vouched for as such. It's an extraordinary achievement for paper to survive that way, and is valued so in a multiplyer effect.<br />In the same way, a car that has 'never been in an accident' commands huge premiums amongst car collectors.<br />You don't have to collect that way, but it sets apart cards and cars for collectors in yet more tiers that acheive a 'selectivity' that people of wealth pay premiums for. You don't get to decide that they cannot collect that way, or have people be dishonest in such dealings, because otherwise someone is being defrauded to spend a premium under false pretext. If that is allowable because it is happening to the wealthy, be assured that such criminality knows no social boundaries and will visit you inside an SGC50 holder before you can say hobnob.<br />Yes, one can lie to maximise profits among collectors.<br />It's still lying.<br /><br />daniel

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Posted By: <b>Peter_Spaeth</b><p>"To even infer that this man could be guilty of an act of impropriety in his auction, is a testament to your lack of skills in the assessment of individuals, personalities and related subjects."<br /><br />Well said Gilbert. And for the record, Jim L., while you were patting yourself on the back for your excellence in civil discourse (is accusing Gil of having a problem with reading comprehension civil discourse, by the way?), you appear to have missed my reasoning, which I will point out again politely: to wit, in my opinion the identity of the seller is irrelevant because there is just as much incentive to run up an auction for a consignor as there is for oneself. I understand you may feel otherwise, and it is a good question to discuss, but in my view it would have been more "civil" to have discussed it in the abstract than to infer Barry Sloate was acting unethically.<br />

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Posted By: <b>E, Daniel</b><p>but I imagine until now, though this topic has been heavily canvassed FOR YEARS, no-one even GUESSED that a major auction house run by some of the absolute most respected people in the industry were 'fixing' cards, and the obvious angst and disgust it fills some collectors with is gushing through this fresh wound......so suspicion of dealers and auctioneers as a whole was a likely outcome. I don't know that what Jim said was all too far wrong, and Gil's comments were themselves pointedly rude and demeaning to any who would question someone he knows and respects, as though somehow Gil can answer for another man's business. It's not so simple, it would seem.<br />Still nonetheless, Barry has done nothing but show himself in excellent light and is obviously happy (as he mentions himself earlier) to face some fire in an effort to make our hobby a better place.<br />Super super commendable.<br />

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Posted By: <b>Jay</b><p>No Peter, I believe that you are incorrect. There is much more incentive for the auction house to run up its own lots rather than those of a consignor. If it runs up its own lots every additional dollar generates between $1.10 and $1.20 in additional revenue(depending on the buyer's commission). Running up consignor's lots simply generates the seller's commission(generally low) plus the buyer's commisssion on this additional dollar. As to generating good publicity from these higher realizations, the auction house will typically feature their high realizing lots in their ads so they get virtually the same positive press whether the higher realization is on their lot or some outside consignors.

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Posted By: <b>Dan Koteles</b><p>what I find not right here is that some think that everything that is sent in to Mastros is scrutinized to see if EACH and every card can get a bump to a higher grade. Remember ,the guys that these cards are sent into ,are guys we talk to everyday.<br />GUYS THAT WE DO TRUST !!!<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>Peter_Spaeth</b><p>You raise an interesting point that perhaps Doug can address. Having never consigned I have no clue. Does a buyer have to raise the question with a Mastro representative of "maximizing" value, or does the Mastro representative offer the services to the consignor on a routine basis? EDITED TO ADD Or, I should say, when the representative feels there may be room for improvement?

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Posted By: <b>steve k</b><p>&lt;&lt;&lt; E, Daniel - No we do not inform grading companies because we do not believe what we do alters cards. Here is the analogy I will use. Do you disclose when you turn your car into the dealer that road tar got on the rear quarter panel and you cleaned it off, or you had a light scratch on the door not effecting the paint so you buffed it out....of course not. &gt;&gt;&gt;<br /><br />Worst analogy I've ever heard. Not disclosing a "pressed out" crease/wrinkle on a card is more akin to covering up engine or transmission problems with a car, not just cleaning or buffing out dirt and scratches on the car.<br /><br />You seem like a good guy who is caught up in defending a bad policy. Why not do the right thing and change your policy about altering cards by attempting to remove card creases/wrinkles?<br /><br /><br /><br />Looks like a few posters beat me to the car analogy criticism - dam I hate that <img src="/images/wink.gif" height=14 width=14><br />

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Posted By: <b>E, Daniel</b><p>daniel

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Posted By: <b>Bottom of the Ninth</b><p>Some had asked about PSA's guarantee...As reproduced from their recent Form 10-Q filing. For what it is worth. My vast experience with all grading companies has been that their guarantee looks great on paper but try actually getting them to buy something back you feel is altered or severely misgraded. It is going to have to be something incredibly significant and blatant to get them to write a check. After all, they are merely offering an opinion.<br /><br /> Grading Warranty Costs . We offer a limited warranty covering the coins, sportscards, stamps and currency that we authenticate and grade. Under the warranty, if any collectible that was previously authenticated and graded by us is later submitted to us for re-grading and either (i) receives a lower grade upon that resubmittal or (ii) is determined not to have been authentic, we will offer to purchase the collectible or pay the difference in value of the item at its original grade as compared with its lower grade. However, this warranty is voided if the collectible, upon resubmittal to us, is not in the same tamper resistant holder in which it was placed at the time we last graded it. We offer a similar limited warranty, of one year’s duration, on the diamonds we grade. We accrue for estimated warranty costs based on historical trends and related experience. To date our reserves have proved to be adequate. However, if warranty claims were to increase in relation to historical trends and experience, we would be required to increase our warranty reserves and incur additional charges that would adversely affect our results of operations in those periods during which the warranty reserve is increased.

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Posted By: <b>MikeU</b><p>Greg, <br /><br />I remember about two years ago you mentioned that you had around 50 PSA slabs that were altered and Joe did not even want to talk to you about this. Did you ever get this resolved?

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Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>One easy to way to look at what Doug has said is acceptable alterations is that these are alterations that are easy to do and are difficult for the slabbers to detect. I am glad to see that he is asking SGC/PSA how they feel able the wrinkle/crease removal. <br /><br />Basically, what "accetable" boils down to is what can be done that slabbers won't be able to detect. For most people it's the simple things like spooning and erasing, but as the secrets to major alterations get out, more and more significant alterations will be conisdered "acceptable".<br /><br />What needs to be done is the card collecting go the route of comic books. SGC is perfectly postioned to do what I am about to suggest:<br /><br />The hobby needs to say, it's OK to restore cards. Be open about it and have it, but have two different grades. One for altered and one unaltered cards. Altered cards would have a not as to what had been done to the card. SGC's comic division already does this and this system works well for comic books. <br /><br />I am sure people will be trying to pass off altered cards as unaltered, but it's a better system that what we currently have and would get rid of the AUTH grade along with it.<br /><br />As to Doug saying that erasing and laying flat corners does not materially change card, that is flat out wrong. By laying a corner flat, you have taken a card with layer and made it so that it no longer does. That is a material change. Same for erasing. You have removed something from the card that was there, even though it may not have been palced there by the manufacturer.<br /><br />Jay<br><br>I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

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Posted By: <b>Doug Allen</b><p>Jim,<br /><br />I think you had two more questions....<br /><br />#1 We don't currently use GAI for grading cards as much as SGC and PSA due to market acceptance. Steve Rocci and Mike Baker are good guys and friends of mine but we need to grade cards with services that have the most market acceptance and right now that is PSA and SGC.<br /><br />#2 I don't believe individuals are getting out due to displeasure over card alteration. I think people buy and sell continually due to the fact that the market continues to get stronger and prices continue to rise. I would have never guessed 5 years ago when I started with Mastro that our $6 million events would become $12+ million events.<br /><br />Take care,<br />Doug

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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Thanks one more time Doug--you have exceeded all expectations with your forthrightness. We all look forward to your responses from Dave and Joe.<br /><br />Jim Crandell

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Posted By: <b>Bottom of the Ninth</b><p>Mike,<br /><br />Sadly I have had very poor results with getting PSA to ever buy back cards. With respect to the group of cards you refer to, my relationship with Joe was already strained. I think Joe figured I was just trying to start more trouble and ignored my emails about the group of cards I had. This was not the first time I had presented executives at PSA with cards in holders that I felt were either misgraded or altered. <br /><br />I don't want to slam PSA too hard here but I was the one who submitted most of the cards over a 3 or 4 month period during what I thought was a terrible time in the grading room. Most of the cards were not that significant, although there were a few that were. The cards were submitted to make a point, which I never got to make. I held the cards for a few months after the email to Joe, scanned all of them and broke them out of the holders. The cards were traded (as altered) to a dealer who sells lower graded material. I decided not to continue my crusade as I was inviting far more trouble in my life than it was worth. <br /><br />Greg

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Posted By: <b>MikeU</b><p>Greg, <br /><br />Do you still submit to them? Is so, are they your primary submitter? You posted the PSA warranty noted in their annual report. This statement has remained the same since 2000, excluding the diamonds statement.

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Posted By: <b>Bottom of the Ninth</b><p>Mike,<br /><br />I do submit to them and they are my primary grading service. I do not like their philosophy but to do otherwise would be fiscally irresponsible. I tried boycotting them for almost 2 years and it only hurt my business. If you can't beat em, join em.<br /><br />As far as that disclosure in the financial statements, it is merely window dressing for the SEC and investors. At least that has been my experience and it was my experience long before they went public.<br /><br />Greg

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Posted By: <b>steve k</b><p>1. Yes, very enlightening thread. But no matter how many times Doug says it, or no matter how many times he spins it, in my firm opinion trying to remove wrinkles without disclosure is flat out wrong! The policy should be changed (not the cards) - simple as that.<br><br>2. But what really should happen is not so much of a devaluation in a grade for something as &quot;minor&quot; as a little wrinkle. I mean come on now...let's evaluate the grading process in itself. I also have collected coins for a long time and of course card grading evolved from coin grading. This isn't a coin forum but suffice to say that a minor scratch on a proof coin devalues the coin enormously. But a &quot;bag mark&quot; on an uncirculated coin doesn't always result in a gross devaluation. In my view, a tiny surface wrinkle is like a bag mark on an uncirculated coin. Many times these surface wrinkles are inherent in the card producing process for a variety of reasons, so they are part of the card and shouldn't be tampered with. Tampering with a surface wrinkle is alteration. So PSA or SGC in my view should grade a card say &quot;PSA 8, minor surface wrinkle&quot; and let the marketplace decide the value of the card. Of course there might still be incentive for card doctors to alter cards for their profit, but at least in my opinion it wouldn't give reputable auction houses and reputable sellers the incentive to &quot;press-out&quot; a wrinkle at the risk of possibly making the card worse resulting in a major devaluation.<br><br>Stephen Katz

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Posted By: <b>davidcycleback</b><p>I largely agree with Steve K. Removing wrinkles, etc should be disclosed. With two identical and visually mint cards, ninety nine percent of collectors will value as less the card that is known to have a wrinkle removed. Thus, it is unethical to not disclose known alterations.<br /><br />I also agree that collectors should not get so uptight over a minor wrinkle, especially when it's the kind discovered under a loupe. If the presence of such a wrinkle saves me $1000, Hooray! <br />

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>I've always felt that many of the problems that arise from cards either being misgraded, or altered cards getting graded at all, occur because the graders do not spend as much time looking at a card as they should. I have never witnessed a card being professionally graded but I can only imagine a factory set-up where there are so many submissions and so many deadlines to make. Would collectors pay more money to have their cards graded if they felt there was a much greater likelihood that nothing would go undetected? I know that is how it works in theory- if I send a card in I value at say 10K I must pay $100 to have it graded, and in return I am offered two-hour turnaround. I also assume in return for my $100 the card is painstakingly examined, but are the graders actually spending that extra time testing it for tampering? I don't know, but I think they are forced to balance speed versus accuracy as cards have to get in and out as fast as possible. Maybe one of the services could comment on this. Do they feel overwhelmed by too much work and therefore are compelled to rush through a process that really demands more time? Because if the graders could somehow find a way to detect these ironed out creases, these threads would not be necessary. On the other hand, if ironed out creases are impossible to detect regardless of what technology is used, then there is unfortunately no solution to this problem.

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Posted By: <b>Marckus</b><p>....and to think that T205's in PSA 8 or 9 actually exist unaltered....<br /><br />Marckus

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Posted By: <b>GoSoxBoSox</b><p>"Nowhere in the Mastro Auction Catalog do I see any statement advising bidders that certain items in the auction have been subject to crease and stain removal. How come?<br /><br />Frank"<br /><br />I haven't seen an answer to Frank's question. If Mastro did this the final value of those auctions would drop significantly wouldn't they?<br /><br /><br />Tom Papa

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Posted By: <b>GoSoxBoSox</b><p>If the practice of cleaning and wrinkle removal is acceptable I would think a legit business would exist for this service. Imagine the sales slogan...<br /><br />"Are those tiny back wrinkles turning your 8's into 4's? Come to Moe's Card Cleaning and Wrinkle Removal Service have make those college tuition payments vanish!!!"<br /><br />Tom Papa<br /><br />edit: to add name

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Posted By: <b>Frank Evanov</b><p>Merriam-Webster Dictionary:<br /><br /><B>Auction House</B> - a firm that conducts auctions.<br /><br />Sometimes the simplest definition is the best.<br><br>Frank

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Frank, but what fun would there be in it for the auction houses if they couldn't maximize their bottom line? I have to say that before these recent topics came up I was completely unaware that certain auction houses take a proactive stance in cracking cards out, cleaning them up, fixing wrinkles and corners, and sending them under their flag to the graders in order to maximize their grades and make as much cash as possible for the houses. Of course, I have never consigned any card to an auction house so I suppose it's not surprising how ignorant I am.

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Posted By: <b>Doug Allen</b><p>First of all I would like to thank Jim Crandall for starting this thread. It has provided some very valuable diaglogue which is always productive.<br /><br />I am getting ready to head out of town for the week (will be at the Reading show this weekend if anyone wants to stop by) so I thought before I left I would document action items I will take and report back on.<br /><br />#1 I will get responses from both PSA and SGC and report back.<br />#2 I will document a definitive policy statement as to both what we will and will not do when it comes to getting cards graded. That is the main take away I get from this. Our customers deserve to know.<br /><br />On a personal note I really appreciate all the positive e-mails I have gotten since this thread began. It is very gratifying. As a matter of fact it has been profitably as well since a couple have led to some really nice consignments! &lt;Before anyone starts they are not cards with wrinkles or corners that need to be laid down...actually one is a fantastic rare pre war type card that we have only offered twice in our history and the other a nice mid grade pre-war consigment&gt;<br /><br />My only regret is Jim didn't invite me to see his collection ;-&lt;<br /><br />All the best,<br />Doug<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Doug,<br /><br />I am still looking in the mail for the invite to the Mastronet party at the national convention in Anaheim<br />:- ). Not that Joe Orlando's dealer party wasn't fun but I understand yours was one not to be missed.<br /><br />Jim

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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Also Doug,<br /><br />Could you answer Peter Spaeth's post at 10:13pm last night--approx post #137.<br /><br />Thank you.<br /><br />Jim

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Prizner</b><p>As a consignor in the last two Mastro Auctions with high-dollar cards, I can tell you that I was never offered any kind of deal to try to "maximize" my grades, even though I personally thought there was a card or two that was definitely under-graded. <br /><br />I did though get another kind of call from Mastro after they received my consignments. They told me that they thought one of my cards was over-graded and that they would have to call that out in the item description. Obviously, I wasn't crazy about that idea so they gave me the option of taking back the consignment, which I did.<br /><br />Not sure how relevant all this is, and I know I'm just one of many consignors, but thought I'd share.<br /><br />(edited to add: this was in response to Peter Spaeth's post at 10:13pm last night--approx post #137.)