Interesting email from REA
 

Posted By: <b>Gilbert Maines</b><p><br /><br />Gentlemen and Ladies:<br /> <br />I agree with some of the enthusiasm expressed here because as was stated by Brue Dorskind “This problem can inflict grave damage on the hobby …”<br /><br />But what do we know about this problem? Robert Lifson states “We are talking about cards that we know for a fact are problems. The fact that we have to address situations such as this at all suggests a greater underlying problem than is generally recognized. And while it is bad enough that the altering of cards is an epidemic…”<br /><br />Well to me, the term epidemic conveys a situation which is both out of control and causing widespread harm. But Julie Vogner notes “…astonished me:<br /><br />1) the lack of focus on bigh grade cards among the doctorers. If they think you will want it, they will doctor it!”<br /><br />This observation indicates that the focus of doctoring is not primarilly on the more important cards in the hobby nor the highest graded cards. <br /><br />And as has been shared by Leon and others, the collecting of baseball cards should be kept within the overall perspective, in part because law enforcement personnel, media personnel and the general public will weigh the problems within a hobby with other problems which face society.<br /><br />And certainly before we consider involving outsiders, or embarking upon a remedial course, we should establish the extent and nature of the problem. I continue to recommend that we try to determine the percentage of important cards which are in holders that contain a grade higher than the card’s attributes actually dictate.<br /><br />Because right now I have no idea regarding the number of cards actually involved. Some inferences indicate that a very high percentage of cards are affected. But that has not been established.

Interesting email from REA
 

Posted By: <b>Dave Rey</b><p>"And certainly before we consider involving outsiders, or embarking upon a remedial course, we should establish the extent and nature of the problem. I continue to recommend that we try to determine the percentage of important cards which are in holders that contain a grade higher than the card’s attributes actually dictate."<br /><br />I agree with Gil here, and we need to establish the universe of cards that we feel should undergo this examination.<br /><br />In the big big picture, the three major grading companies probably collectively get card grades right (within an acceptable variable range of +1 or -1 grade) about 98 percent of the time -- of course that is remembering that the vast majority of the cards they grade are not the kind we really give a damn about.<br /><br />I think we're identifying the problem here that we really care about as encompassing the universe of cards this board considers, "on topic."<br /><br />Until collecting communities like this one make a concerted effort to share the information needed to keep track of this problem, and that also probably involves naming names, sharing or keeping picture databases of what we've bought and sold, and throwing some weight around with the grading companies, this is just a topic that we'll endlessly debate with no ultimate resolution and no braking on the train as it runs down the wrong track.<br /><br />Doing it right may ultimately take more effort and resources than this community can muster, though. And doing it half-assed may be worse than doing it at all.

Interesting email from REA
 

Posted By: <b>warshawlaw</b><p>Equating card doctoring with rape or child molestation? Are you out of your mind? Sell me a doctored card and I might get mad and maybe even sue you, but touch my wife or daughter and they'll have to strain your remains for the fingerprints. <br /><br />It always amuses me that people who live in the silk stocking district and whose closest brush with the criminal justice system is watching "Law and Order" on their HD TV's think that the system is too lenient. Go to your local criminal court and watch sentencing; nevermind felonies, even a misdeameanor session will do. I've sat through several misdeameanor court sessions in Burbank waiting for my clients' civil cases to come up and let me tell you, they HAMMER offenders. And we won't even discuss what would happen to a middle-aged white man in prison...

Interesting email from REA
 

Posted By: <b>Cobby33</b><p>I hardly think that Skilling's sentence is harsh and I know (former) Enron employees and those of us in CA who were robbed by those criminals, would agree that it is harsh.<br /><br />As for the more hardened criminals, at least in N CA, most of them are our on probation/parole. Just check out the sex offender database online and you'll see how many of them have done their "time" (or not) and who are trolling our neighborhoods. Sentences are one thing. Actual time served is another.<br /><br />Getting back on topic...I'd like to see the serious felonies addressed before we start taking up jail space with the card doctors. In the meantime, disgorge their profits and split it equally between the MAJOR CONTRIBUTORS of this Board! <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

Interesting email from REA
 

Posted By: <b>davidcycleback</b><p>The key to identifying professional restoration is to burn the card. If the flame is<br />blue it has restoration solvents. If the flame is yellow, you'll be glad to know you owned<br />an unrestored card. If it doesn't burn it's either a witch or a Sweet Caporal pin.

Interesting email from REA
 

Posted By: <b>JK</b><p>"if it doesnt burn its a witch . . ."<br /><br />david - I think that is one of the funniest posts Ive read in a long time.

Interesting email from REA
 

Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>If it burns, then it is a witch because withces are made of wood. Wood floats in water, so all ducks are witches <img src="/images/wink.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br />Jay<br /><br />I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

Interesting email from REA
 

Posted By: <b>Joann</b><p>And the final test is ... if it weighs the same as a duck, it's a witch!!<br /><br />(What? The curtains? hee)<br /><br />Joann

Interesting email from REA
 

Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Cobby, Skilling will most likely spend the rest of his life in prison and be stripped of all ill-gotten gains. I'm curious, what would you consider to be a harsher sentence? Castration? Death?

Interesting email from REA
 

Posted By: <b>warshawlaw</b><p>I lost a bundle on Enron out of my IRA, but I am satisfied with the sentence.

Interesting email from REA
 

Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>As did I with Worldcom stock. Ebbers also received a sentence that will most likely end with him being taken out of prison in a bag. Same with the head of Adelphia. All of these sentences received were longer than most defendants receive for rape convictions - and sometimes longer than murder sentences. Is fraud worse than rape?

Interesting email from REA
 

Posted By: <b>warshawlaw</b><p>Is it worse to destroy the retirement savings of 10,000 people or to destroy the life of one person?

Interesting email from REA
 

Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>I hear you. Close call - which is why I suppose courts are finally hammering white collar criminals with blue collar sentences. But I'm still amazed at how society still thinks that white collar guys are getting off these days. It's just not true. In fairness, the prejduice facing a high profile white collar criminal at trial is almost unfair to the point of absurdity. I've had cases in which the juries had their minds made up before openings and it is a bear to turn them around over a period of a month or two. This is simply unfair.

Interesting email from REA
 

Posted By: <b>Cobby33</b><p>Jeff: Keep in mind you're dealing with someone who spent 2 years at a DA's office in CA- nevertheless, I can respect a good defense attorney's argument.<br /><br />Personally, I'm not an advocate of the death penalty for anyone, so, that sentence is out. Same goes for castration (though I'm not sure that exists in any jurisdiction these days, but don't quote me on that).<br /><br />I wasn't as wronged by this guy as a lot of other people were, so perhaps I can't be as objective as others. But for starters, how about life in prison w/o possibility of parole- and not a country club prison. Yes, prison is prison, but we all know some Federal institutions are rather comfortable, comparatively. As for his ill-gotten gains, I find it hard to believe his family is not still profiting from his criminal mastermind.<br /><br />When you play with that many people's lives and livelihoods, you should pay the price. "Don't do the crime if you can't do the time..." How about that acquittal?

Interesting email from REA
 

Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>The federal sentencing guidelines provide an advisory guide on what judges should mete out to convicted defendants. Skilling received, no doubt, the high end of that adjusted guidelines range. Only killers and huge drug dealers have ranges that can be life without parole in a federal case (keeping in mind that there is no longer 'parole' in a federal sentence). There is no cushy camp for defendants facing that kind of time. Skilling got hammered in large part because of the public's disgust (rightfully so) for massive corporate greed and fraud. I'm not an advocate for Skilling by any means; I think he's a pig and got what he deserved. I also believe in justice for all no matter my personal feelings. A life sentence for Skilling would have been inappropriate; a de facto life sentence is what he ended up getting and is more than enough by anyone's count.

Interesting email from REA
 

Posted By: <b>Gilbert Maines</b><p>Not by my count. I use the old math:<br />If a guy steals from me, why should I have to pay the freight to feed him, house him and pay medical and all other expenses which he needs for the rest of his life?<br />Unless I get to choose how long the rest of his life is?<br /><br />Id vote that these guys live sufficiently long to become familiar with all of the characteristics of incarceration, then fry them. Afterall, they are not going to return to society anyway, so why drag it out at my cost?

Interesting email from REA
 

Posted By: <b>Cobby33</b><p>Not by mine either.<br />Too often, people are scammed by others more fortunate (and devious). Fortunately for me and my family, other than the garden-variety (legal) fraud by lenders, etc., we have not been victims of this.<br />I can only imgaine how the true victims of Skilling (and others) feel and as Gil suggests (again- not a proponent of capital punishment), a de facto life sentence doesn't do his multiple victims any "justice," sentencing "guidelines" aside.

Interesting email from REA
 

Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Just curious-how does a de facto life sentence punish the man any less than a real life sentence? Shall we dig him up after he dies and make him do some more time? And if so, how do we deal with the rapists, murderers and terrorists that come through our courts? <br /><br />Edited to add: both Adam and I are victims, respectively, of Skilling and Bernie Ebbers. And we've both told you how we felt. Everytime an MCI cold caller calls me at home to ask me to switch my service, right before I tell them to go F themselves, I ask for the 15K back that Bernie stole from me. That usually leaves them speechless (apparently that eventuality is not on the script).

Interesting email from REA
 

Posted By: <b>Cobby33</b><p>Skilling, assuming he spends ALL 24 years behind bars, will be 76 when he's released, assuming he is. I haven't looked at life expectancy tables lately, but presumably, he'll have some time left.<br /><br />As for the serious felons, I think most would admit the CJ system needs an overhaul here as well, but it won't be a productive argument when the premise that "a lot of murderers get out in less than 24, so why should Skilling have to spend more time." Apples and oranges.

Interesting email from REA
 

Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Well, I can tell you that one's lifestyle does not improve in prison.<br /><br />As for 'apples and oranges', actually, that is exactly why Congress enacted the federal sentencing guidelines-to compare crimes and provide a sliding scale on the severity of the sentences meted out for crimes: the less severe receive less time and the more severe receive more time. Hence, this is the reason why Skilling did not get a life sentence and murderers and major drug kingpins do in federal courts.

Interesting email from REA
 

Posted By: <b>Cobby33</b><p>Point well taken. I think sentencing/punishment in State courts is a lot less organized and a lot less "equitable," given that disorganization.<br /><br />Personally, I don't have an axe to grind with Skilling, et al., although I think what they did was below reproach.<br /><br />At first blush, one wouldn't think that a "white collar" criminal should be doled-out the same (or worse) punishment than a violent criminal. Makes sense, to a certain extent, until you consider the number of victims and in many cases, the irreversible harm these people have done. In those cases, I don't see MUCH of a line (there still is) between violent offenders and "white collar" offenders.<br /><br />I'm sure everyone is tired of listening to me, so I'll sign off on that thought...

Interesting email from REA
 

Posted By: <b>davidcycleback</b><p>The problem for the Skillings and Ebbers is that some sentencing is based directly<br />on the amount of money stolen (stolen may or may not be the appropriate word). Ala, if you steal <br />$100 you get a fine, if you steal $2,000 you get a fine plus 10 days in jail, etc. <br />For these guys, the amount was in the billions of dollars. This is comparable to<br />a sentence being based on the weight of the item stolen, and they stole Mars ("Bailiff, <br />please hand me my scale.").

Interesting email from REA
 

Posted By: <b>Frank Wakefield</b><p>This is my 13th year as a judge. I render judgments and sentences. I have the fortune of being a state court judge, not restrained by sentencing guidelines. (Although those federal guys do have a better deal than I when it comes to compensation, job security, and retirement.) I'm relieved that it is judges who do the sentencing, not some of you guys who've posted above. Figuring out a fine on a speeding charge isn't really very difficult. Adjudicating child abuse and making custody determinations can be quite difficult and troubling due to the uncertainties of the situations. Again, I'm relieved to know that you guys aren't doing that. And I probably would not excell as well as you folks in your professions.<br /><br />Realistically, you'd be a bit better off if you paid attention to what you were buying. Don't blindly trust slab labels and then whine. If you're spending big bucks (to you) on a card, establish a return policy prior to the purchase. Try to think of an old card like you would a used car. If I sold a used car to someone, and they come back in a few weeks mad because the car had a replacement gas cap, would that void the deal?? Was I trying to defraud them??? <br /><br />I understand cards aren't cars. And I agree that someone who intentionally bleaches or "soaks, stretches, and trims" a card with the intentions of selling the card to someone as a card that is unaltered... that person would be committing fraud. But it is at worst a theft, a crime against property. Don't compare that to murder, manslaughter, rape, sexual abuse, or other offenses against a person. At least don't do that and expect to be taken seriously.<br /><br />This thread was about REA's email... not about administering Star Chamber justice on anyone who does anything to a baseball card.

Interesting email from REA
 

Posted By: <b>warshawlaw</b><p>I am personally far more at ease with a judge who has actually heard the evidence and can consider it controlling a sentence than with a judge being forced to look at a book and pick a sentence. We are having a lot of trouble here with sentencing mandates, both because at times the sentence doesn't fit the crime and because of the overall effect on our prison system of warehousing so many non-violent criminals for so long. While I am satisfied that Skilling is going to do a long stint given the current law, I do not think that our approach to crimes like his is sensible. Frankly, we don't need to waste $40,000 or more a year segregating Jeff Skilling from society; we need that money and the jail space to pay for incarcerating violent or crazy people. One of the reasons why violent offenders are paroled is that so many non-violent criminals are doing long stints, overcrowding the system with people who don't need to be there. I am of the view that prisons should be reserved for criminals whose acts pose an immediate life and safety threat for others, not for white collar offenders. Force them (under threat of prison if they don't cooperate) to cough up and pool all of their assets for their victims, let them spend years in state and Federal civil courts dealing with class actions and other suits brought by their victims, and make them spend the rest of their time on unpleasant community service work details. Break them financially and force them to live like the people they've victimized: impoverished in a brutally unsupportive society that is singular among the developed nations in lts lack of social safety net, public health care system, etc. A lifetime spent testifying against yourself, doing community service (freeway trash pick-up sounds good, or perhaps cleaning public toilets), living in slums and eating cat food sounds like better justice to me than putting the guy on a military base to garden.

Interesting email from REA
 

Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>They can end a lot of overcrowding by legalizing marijuana. I'll take a pot smoker over a drunk any day of the week. I've never met a violent stoner, but there are plenty of violent drunks. That's why I don't have any friends that are alcoholics.<br /><br />Jay<br><br>I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

Interesting email from REA
 

Posted By: <b>Gilbert Maines</b><p>So then, the conclusion of our assessment is that the best way to address the problem of doctored cards in top end graded holders, is to legalize marijuana.

Interesting email from REA
 

Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>You've got my vote (whatever on earth it has to do with altered cards- maybe altered state of consciousness).

Interesting email from REA
 

Posted By: <b>Judge Dred (Fred)</b><p>The scans of the Lajoie really aren't that helpful and it's difficult to compare scans of different sizes. I would be nice to see large hi resolution scans of this card (front and back) in the GAI3 holder.

Interesting email from REA
 

Posted By: <b>cmoking</b><p>Is this PSA 2 in Memory Lane's auction the same card as the card previously in PSA 1MK and GAI 3 holders?<br /><br /><a href="http://www.memorylaneinc.com/site/bid/bidplace.asp?itemid=4760&getauctionid=64" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.memorylaneinc.com/site/bid/bidplace.asp?itemid=4760&getauctionid=64</a><br /><br /><img src="http://www.memorylaneinc.com/site/images_items/item_4760_1.jpg"><br /><img src="http://home.comcast.net/~kingyao/REALajoieBefore.jpg"><br /><br />Edited to put the two scans of the PSA 2 and PSA 1MK next to each other.

Interesting email from REA
 

Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>Centering sure seems to be the same<br /><br />Jay<br><br>I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

Interesting email from REA
 

Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>No question that is the same card.

Interesting email from REA
 

Posted By: <b>Tony Andrea</b><p>Absolutely, positively, the same card..............<br /><br /> Tony Andrea

Interesting email from REA
 

Posted By: <b>Frank Evanov</b><p>Definitely the same card....but where did the writing on the back go?????<br><br>Frank

Interesting email from REA
 

Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>The crease wasn't perfectly removed. If you look at Lajoie's left shoulder (right side of the card) you can still see where the crease was in that area.<br /><br />Jay<br><br>I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

Interesting email from REA
 

Posted By: <b>ScottIngold</b><p>Wow..... Scary and amazing at the same time.<br /><br />Even the nick just to the left of the (L) on the top border is still there. All be it much lighter.

Interesting email from REA
 

Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>It's definitely the same card.....and you can still see the much worked on crease in the middle, in the bottom pic.....This would make a good debate. I do believe the structural integrity was compromised with the crease as heavy as it was. I would sure hate to be the one buying it in the 2 holder if I didn't know about the before picture.....If I did know about the before picture then I could bid accordingly...it's still a nice card. This is one I would want full disclosure on and could be an issue. best regards<br /><br />edited to add, after looking again, those could almost be heavy surface wrinkles....hard to tell without seeing the backs....and both are nice for their grade, I agree with cmoking on that...

Interesting email from REA
 

Posted By: <b>cmoking</b><p>My opinion is that it is the best PSA 1MK I've ever seen. That's the lowest grade that PSA can give a card, and it doesn't look bad from an eye-appeal perspective.<br /><br />If I had seen the PSA 2 without knowing it's history, I'd think it looks like a fantastic PSA 2 also.