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Posted By: <b>Chris Bland</b><p>Dave,<br /><br />If your intentions were just to find out information, I apologize. However, posting on the main board and asking if you overpaid for a card and then listing in for 2x that amount in the BST 48 hrs later is going to raise some eyebrows. Its nothing personal; those actions would be questioned regardless of the card, or the owner.

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Posted By: <b>Dave</b><p>I hope you read all the way from top to bottom. I'm not going through it again. If you or anyone else wants more clarified your more than welcome to email me. <br /><br />Edited to add- YOu can read my post at 11:45 am

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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>What you are saying is I got it right? <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> I actually agree with you on this one. I tried not to but couldn't help it. I think I totally blew the verbiage but had the intent. For all of the drama...the rule is staying the same as I think it's the right thing to do....

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Posted By: <b>Chris Bland</b><p>Dave,<br /><br />I have read the thread, thank you. I am neither siding with you, or against you; I am just telling you why I believe some on here are questioning your motives.

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Posted By: <b>Wesley</b><p>Chris, Dave said earlier that every card is for sale. If people supplement their incomes by flipping cards good for them. If people want to price their cards on the main forum then I guess it is their perogative.

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Posted By: <b>Dave</b><p>I'm a civil engineer. I work with numbers all the time. I price jobs, and I manage them to make sure multi-million dollar asphalt jobs stay within costs. Anyone that questions my motives.....delibarately putting the price I paid in writing on a thread, with the pre-conceived notion of I'm then going to go to the B/S/T and ask for two times that amount, doesn't know what they are talking about. As I originally said, I had offers right away on the card from people. One offer, I said ok to...he said give him til the end of the week to make arrangements, and said if I could get more for the card before then, then fine he understood. My only motive in selling the card was when I was approached by that individual for a certain sum of money, and thats that. <br /><br /><br />Edited to say- My only motive for selling the card was not only when that individual approached me, but I had every intention of sending the card in to be slabbed, and then yes, sold.

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Posted By: <b>JK</b><p>t206king - a card is not always worth what you paid. obviously you havent done enough buying and selling to figure that out. I bought an e93 wagner for 900. I can tell you for a certainty that the card is worth well over 2000. I buy cards on ebay all the time for prices that are lower than what I believe I will later be able to sell a card for. <br /><br />Mark - stating what price you paid for a card is not a material statement about the card itself. Its a collateral matter. As far as a buyer wanting to have some idea of the value should he/she need to sell it at some future date, that is the buyer's responsibility. The seller is under no obligation to insure that the buyer is getting a good deal. All the seller is required to do is provide an authentic, unaltered card (if that is how the card has been represented). <br /><br />Further, even assuming for the sake of argument that somehow the buyer does rely on the seller's purchase price (or statement as to purchase price) to determine value, unless the seller is specifically asked for the information by the buyer and informed by the buyer that he is relying solely on the seller's representation as to the worth of the card, there is no way any court finds a seller guilty of fraud for saying he has more in the card than he actually does. If not, then I can imagine the scenerio where I actually over pay significantly for a card and tell a buyer truthfully that I have 500 in the card, if I then fail to tell the buyer that while I have 500 in the card but its only worth 200, have I now fraudulently induced a buyer to overspend on the card despite saying nothing false? At some point, a buyer has to take responsibility for what they purchase. If they are unfamiliar with an issue, its up to them to best determine the value and that should not include blind faith in what he/she is told by the seller.

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Posted By: <b>Chris Bland</b><p>Wesley,<br /><br />My point has absolutely nothing to do with flipping cards. If Dave can find a buyer who would give him 20k for it, more power to him IMO. However, posting a question about a purchase, and then selling it 48 hrs later, could easily be construed as using the board for advertising an item to be sold, something I believe is frowned upon around here. <br /><br />As I said, I am not siding with or against Dave; he likely just got caught in this situation, but I do understand why it would raise some questions/concerns.

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Posted By: <b>Wesley</b><p>I saw the Mello-Mint thread as a combination of Dave pricing the card and marketing the card for sale at the same time.

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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>Did all of that mean that you are saying you can lie, and lieing is not considered fraud?

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Posted By: <b>Cobby33</b><p>Leon- There really aren't enough facts in that hypothetical to make a call one way or another. I think for our purposes, it would be suicide to one's business dealings with others in this (usually) tight-knit community.

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Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>I wonder what the new owner of my e90-3 Hofman error would think if he knew I only paid $13 for that card a few years earlier. For those that don't know, final hammer on it, w/o juice, was $2750.00<br /><br />Jay<br><br>I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

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Posted By: <b>Kenny Cole</b><p>Josh, <br /><br />That must be the defense lawyer in you coming out. This is real simple: If you say you spent $500 on the card, and you actually spent $300, and you say that in order induce a buyer to pay more than $500, that is a LIE. It isn't puffery, because the reason that you have lied is to fatten your pocketbook, they know that the statement is false, and the buyrer relies on that statement when making the purchase. Such a statement is pretty much fraud under the laws of any state that I am aware of. Do you disagree that a false statement, made wtih knowledge, intended to induce the purchaser to make a purchase based upon a false impression, is not fraud? <br /><br />I don't post here too much anymore, and Leon's new rule is not going to affect me at all. I could basically give a **** about it. But, your statement is just stupid and wrong. Mark is absolutely right, and I am embarrased that you would even try to dispute it. I would get summary judgment on your ass if that was the best argument you could make, and, apparently, it is. If you are going to act like a lawyer, then go figure out what the law is before you say ignorant **** like that. Feel free to respond.<br /><br />Kenny Cole <br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>Cobby33</b><p>I'm pretty sure s/he wouldn't care. Most people pay what they pay because it's worth that to them. Econ 1A.

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Posted By: <b>JK</b><p>One other thing Mark, I dont believe that lying about the purchase price is "acceptable salesmanship". I just dont believe that it rises to the level of fraud.<br />

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Posted By: <b>Cobby33</b><p>Whether it's Fraud/Misrep. or not (check the new jury instructions in CA), there's always the issue of damages, which is a key element most litigants dismiss and later get pissed off at their attorneys for not emphasizing that to them.

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Posted By: <b>JK</b><p>Kenny,<br /><br />The misrepresentation must be material. I just dont think it rises to that level. Now, if you feel the need to be more of an ass, feel free.<br /><br />As for ignorance, the fact that you really believe you could get summary judgment in a fraud case tells me all I really need to know about your comments above.

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Posted By: <b>Kenny Cole</b><p>Josh, <br /><br />I don't really need to do the ass thing anymore. You have no response, other than arguing that a lie about the cost of a card, intended to decieve the purchasr, is not material, and have done it quite well. I suggest that others might disagree with your take. In that regard, IMO, you are the ass. If others feel differently, that's OK too.<br /><br />Your postition is that lying is OK if it isn't material. Hello!!! People buy cards based upon the representations about: 1) the conditon of the card; and sometimes 2) the cost of the card. When a representation about the cost of the card is made in order to kick the sales price up, the cost of the card is material. As I said before, I would get summary judgment on your ass if that was the best you could do. Your argument is pathetic.<br /><br />Kenny Cole<br /><br />BTW Josh, I have gotten summary judgment on the issue of the existance of fraud once, and sort of got it, by way of motion in limine, once again. You still have to go try the damages, but I'm Ok with that. Nuff said. Have a good day.<br /><br />Kenny Cole<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>JK</b><p>Ken,<br /><br />Im sure your legal skills are vastly superior to all others. So tell me how there is no question of material fact as to intent to deceive or reliance?<br /><br />Regardless, I have never said that I believe lying is ok. In fact, I state just the opposite a few posts above - perhaps you missed reading that before your tirade. I simply do not agree that a the seller's purchase price of a card is material to the sale of the card itself or the value of the card. Nothing more, nothing less. I certainly wouldnt rely on a seller's statement regarding what he paid for a card as being an indicator of value.

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Posted By: <b>Cobby33</b><p>Summary judgment granted in favor of plaintiff.<br />What are their recoverable damages and under what theory?

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Posted By: <b>Kenny Cole</b><p>My legal skills don't have to be vastly superior. That's sort of the point which, you apparently haven't gotten. IMO, It's an easy call. When you lie about the cost of the card, and do so to induce the buyer to pay a bunch more, that is fraud. Does that confuse you?

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Posted By: <b>JK</b><p>I will make one concession. Perhaps my choice of the word puffery was inappropriate. My point is and has been that even if its a lie, it doesnt amount to fraud and that buyer's have some obligation to do their own due dilligence. Further - my position has nothing to do with my personal opinion regarding whether its right or wrong to lie about the price paid if asked.

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Posted By: <b>Mark</b><p>Cobby, in many (all?) jurisdictions one could get out of the sale if said sale were induced by fraud such as a material mistatement of fact. In other words, the buyer could get his money back.<br /><br />Josh, you argued that lying as to purchase price is "far closer to puffery or salesmanship than a material misrepresentation." Since puffery is perfectly acceptable("it's a great card") and salesmanship could almost be an admirable trait ("he's a good salesman"), I too misinterpreted your posts as saying lying is acceptable. I'm glad I was wrong.<br /><br />Leon, yes I think we agree on lying, the way the rule was phrased it sounded like a "zero tolerance interference policy," a "ZTIP" if you will.

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Posted By: <b>Al C.risafulli</b><p>Excellent selection, Barry.<br /><br />-Al

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Posted By: <b>Cobby33</b><p>Al- Thank you.<br /><br />Marcus- Yes, recission is an option, but I was curious as to the litigants' (here) positions re: MSJ remedies. I suppose recission would be one, but that's an awfully expensive vehicle for a $500 (or so) card. Small claims is way underrated...

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Posted By: <b>Kenny Cole</b><p>I absolutely agree that the buyer need to do his/her own due diligence. However, I think it is also absolutely important that the seller is honest or, at the least, that they don't affirmatively lie. It seems to me that there is where we disagree. I think I'll stick with my position.

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Posted By: <b>t206King</b><p>Dave-<br />I do know something about the Mellow-mint thanks. you cant just tell me i have zero knowledge of them (these comments are very juvenile you have stated Dave). if i didnt know anything on the subject then i wouldnt have wrote in the thread of yours.(common sense) <br /><br />I have been collecting E cards for many years now and have watched the auction houses and ebay closely. I used 200 as an example to prove a point(previous thread).<br />you paid 228 for the card(which i watched on ebay) i say worth alittle more. <br /><br />I stated my points with an ungraded card. not a graded card. If you understand card collecting market, graded cards always bring more in than raw. simple fact.<br /><br />trying to help fellow buyers shouldnt be a crime. like tell people in a forum thread "watch out for this auction" or "this seller".<br /><br />dave please provide some views valid for this argument<br /><br /><br />Josh- I have been buying and selling for years. i read on the forums 228 dollars for the card was right or close to my books(would only grade a 1 or 1.5 if lucky). also depends on the card and player. obviously a wagner you state is worth more usually on ebay. All depends on the player and type of card. ie. its the cards like common t206s, and common e cards than ppl buy and make the market by bidding to what they think its worth. your going to have good auctions and bad auctions. cant speak for all the of them of course. thats all i was saying in that statement

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Posted By: <b>JK</b><p>Ken - Actually, reread my posts regarding my personal opinion on lying. I dont think we disagree at all on that point. Again, my comments went only to whether the lying amounts to fraud. You have your opinion and I have mine and I guess you will have to be content believing in your heart of hearts that Im an ass and your imaginary summary judgment brief would just be the bomb. <br /><br />Frankly, Im perplexed as to what I might have done to you to warrant the personal attacks in your posts.

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Posted By: <b>Cobby33</b><p>So much for the reality check.<br />I'm out.

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Posted By: <b>Kenny Cole</b><p>See my email. We're Ok. But I'm still right. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br />

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Posted By: <b>Anonymous</b><p>on second thought...who do ya'll like in the Breeders Cup Classic?

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Posted By: <b>BcD</b><p>"puffery" is the cheeks on the pompous putz who is attaching you! I have seen it up close.<br />Here is the model by which his parents genetically copied-<br /><br /><a href="http://www.toonopedia.com/droopy.htm" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.toonopedia.com/droopy.htm</a><br /><br /><br /><a href="http://images.google.com/images?q=droopy&hl=en&hs=mMr&lr=&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official_s&sa=N&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&tab=wi" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://images.google.com/images?q=droopy&hl=en&hs=mMr&lr=&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official_s&sa=N&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&tab=wi</a><br /><br /><br /><br /><br><br>BcD <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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Posted By: <b>Dave</b><p>My comments are juvenile? That amazes me. YOUR the one that took the liberty off trashing my thread. Your the one that says now that you do know alot about mello-mints. Your the one that said you posted on my thread because "someone else" said the card was worth $200. If you know so much about them King, what the hell are you going on another person's opinion for?? And by the way, because you were out to protect the "buyer", the "buyer" is a DEALER, not a 16 year old kid in Abeline Tx, not some 68 year old grandmother in Big Fork, MT. The "dealer" is still wanting to go through with this he has not wavered. It's like anything else in life, your at the carlot and the car salesman shakes hands with a customer and says "you got a deal on this baby for $24,900. Are you going to walk over in the middle of it and say "But didnt you get the car wholesale for $17,000?" NO, your not. You just feel you have the right to do it here, and with other's opinions on prices, otherwise you would not have stated that "other board members stated the card was worth $200 on the B/S/T". As far as your juvenile comment, not gonna freaking start that with you, my issue was about this one damn thing you did.

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Posted By: <b>Peter_Spaeth</b><p>I agree that misrepresenting the price one paid for a card is a material misrepresentation, but the level of rhetoric in the attack against Josh was quite unwarranted in my opinion, and his comments plainly did not condone lying, but merely expressed an opinion that a court might find the statement in question to be immaterial, or not the type of statement a buyer reasonably can rely on. There are a lot of outs for a defendant in a fraud case.

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Posted By: <b>will</b><p>Lurker's lament...<br />Slow morning, so I actually read through all of this.<br />Lawyer versus Lawyer kind of says it all.<br />Anyone want to discuss health care consulting?<br />Just a few simple thoughts -<br />I have never bought a card based on anything the seller has told me - be it how much he paid for it, the book value, what it should grade - NOTHING.<br />Fraud, lying, misrepresentation - none of it matters - I have never been forced to buy a card.<br />Dave - I thought this was Leon's thread.<br />B/S/T should be just that. Everyone's e-mail is (should be) attached. Per Leon's new rule, just keep all the interference off the public forum.<br />Leon's old rule - keep all marketing activities, real or perceived, in the B/S/T.<br /><br />"Please include your email address when you post. Feel free to post scans. Posters assume all responsibility for their own transactions. Caveat Emptor."<br /><br />Seems clear to me.<br /><br />William List

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Posted By: <b>t206King</b><p>Dave,<br />Car lots and internet are 2 different things. i never asked others for advice on that card, and i dont get why your freaking out? did u sell the card? if so why go on about it on this thread. if not well then theres a reason. <br /><br />your arguments arent valid

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Posted By: <b>Dave</b><p>It's sold, i'm very tired of this subject and done discussing it.

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Posted By: <b>t206King</b><p>take Chill pill Dave, and relax.