opinions- is taking a crease out really altering?
 

Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>woops...I am a bit defensive since getting slammed for talking about stuff that I don't do or knew too much about (until a few days ago)....at least to the extent it is being done.......but yes....I guess, had I thought to do it, it would have been pretty good.... <img src="/images/sad.gif" height=14 width=14>

opinions- is taking a crease out really altering?
 

Posted By: <b>Cobby33</b><p>Kinda figured that...Take in all in stride, it's nothing personal. Those of us who have dealt with you know you're 100% above-board.<br /><br />On another note, if it's slabbed and graded, "what's the diff?" as Frank Burns would say? If people weren't so obsessed with cracking cards and re-submitting them, this issue would be less of a problem. Now, if I knew a graded card has been "altered," I suppose I might care (since I generally disapprove of any "altering,")--which is why I don't ask!

opinions- is taking a crease out really altering?
 

Posted By: <b>Gilbert Maines</b><p>If you look at a card and can not tell it has been altered, and the grading companies can not tell either, then there is no evidence of the alteration.<br /><br />Without evidence, the alteration does not exist.<br /><br />In the rare situation that an auction house or others can trace a card's history reliably, then evidence may exist regarding an alteration. But that evidence is indirect. Examination of the card still does not provide indication of tampering with the card's condition.<br /><br />So in most situations, if you can not detect an alteration, it does not exist.<br /><br />And even if you donot want your cards trimmed or their creases removed, when there is a potential for profit in doing so, it will be done, until all cards are as restored as is cost effective to do.<br /><br />I wish Joe would say this isn't so.

opinions- is taking a crease out really altering?
 

Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>As Leon pointed out, and I agree, the slabbers should be holdering everything they get and when they detect that the card is altered, then it get put in a colder with a different colored flip. They do it for comics, so why not baseball cards. Just as in comics, people are willing to pay for nice looking cards regardless whether or not the card has been altered. At least this way, we know what cards have been altered and can bid accordingly.<br /><br />Jay<br><br>I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

opinions- is taking a crease out really altering?
 

Posted By: <b>Cobby33</b><p>Is a mark on the card (MK) considered an "alteration?" Knowing how PSA (and others) currently deal with this, this could become another inconsistent grading practice of theirs.

opinions- is taking a crease out really altering?
 

Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>Technically, it is altering the card, but is an alteration that has a negative effect on the calue of the card. The only problem people would have with someone putting ink or pencil marks on a card is that most would be saddened that anyone would deface a card in a such a way today.<br /><br />Jay<br><br>I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

opinions- is taking a crease out really altering?
 

Posted By: <b>BcD</b><p>is this altered in any way????<br /><br /><br /><a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/Nice-Earthtone-Colored-Couch-92-Inches_W0QQitemZ220040582922QQihZ012QQcategoryZ496 0QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem?hash=item22 0040582922" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://cgi.ebay.com/Nice-Earthtone-Colored-Couch-92-Inches_W0QQitemZ220040582922QQihZ012QQcategoryZ496 0QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem?hash=item22 0040582922</a><br /><br /><br />just wonderin?<br><br>BcD <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

opinions- is taking a crease out really altering?
 

Posted By: <b>warshawlaw</b><p>"Is a mark on the card (MK) considered an "alteration?"<br /><br />This is the "hanging chad" of grading. If PSA divines that the mark was made by some creative kid, it gets slabbed. If "KarnakPSA" decides it was made by someone trying to deceive, it get rejected. Stupid, indefensible distinction.

opinions- is taking a crease out really altering?
 

Posted By: <b>Jeff Drum</b><p>Plain and simply as stated before more eloquently than I; the fact that the people who are doing it do not advertise the fact in their listings or even advertise for "wrinkle-removing" business should tell you what even the "doctors" think about what they are doing. Even if they see no issue, it tells me that they feel (and rightfully so) that the majority of their potential customer base would have any issue with it and it would affect their business. I agree with the previous comments that PSA/SGC/GAI should all have slabs and different color labels for altered cards. Now will that prevent the crackers/reslabbers from plying their trade - No!

opinions- is taking a crease out really altering?
 

Posted By: <b>Noel</b><p>Clearly yes. I think Jay has it spot on. It is unethical at best and stealing at worst. Why are these people who alter cards hiding in the backroom and not coming forward? They know, along with a large percentage of others it is deceptive and wrong. In the end, these people will make their money and the card collecting community will be left with an inferior product. Additionally, grading companies who overlook this should be held liable for the difference in the alteration. Probably would create a little more conscious awareness of the practice if it hits them right in the pocket book. The bottom line is it is not being done under the watchful eyes of card collecting community but rather under the guise that the card is something other than what it is being advertised.

opinions- is taking a crease out really altering?
 

Posted By: <b>Gilbert Maines</b><p>Wait, I think I get it!<br />The crease formerly was on the card, but now it is gone, because someone removed it, right?<br />So no one can see it - well, because it is gone.<br />So what? The grading companies must have different color holders to distinguish between creases that are gone and those that were never there?<br />Wait, I still don't get it!

opinions- is taking a crease out really altering?
 

Posted By: <b>cmoking</b><p>Warshawlaw wrote: "This is the "hanging chad" of grading. If PSA divines that the mark was made by some creative kid, it gets slabbed. If "KarnakPSA" decides it was made by someone trying to deceive, it get rejected. Stupid, indefensible distinction. "<br /><br />From my experience, PSA will grade any cards that has been written on as MK (assuming they see it and it wasn't erased). I was not aware they made any differentiation at all like what warshawlaw is talking about here. Edumacate me please.

opinions- is taking a crease out really altering?
 

Posted By: <b>davidcycleback</b><p>In this hobby, people generally have two major 'condition' critereon for pricing a card:<br />authenticity and condition grade.<br /><br />If a genuine card is altered-- recolored, trimmed, wrinkle pressed out-- the card<br />will still be authentic.<br /><br />Assigning a condition of grade is dependant on whether or not the card has been altered. <br />A recolored card can't be considered Mint no matter how nice it looks. In fact many will <br />consider the card Poor or ungradable. Whether you think it's dumb or smart or silly or <br />good, a 'Near Mint' card that is known to have had a crease pressed out will be valued <br />lower than a Near Mint card that has had no alteration. If these two cards are laid side <br />by side, I know of no collector who would pay the same about for each card knowing one has <br />had a wrinkle removed-- and everyone removing a wrinkle knows this.<br /><br />Fraud is when you intentionally hide information that you know would lower the<br />value of the card. If you have a Mint card and don't disclose what you did to the<br />card because you know the buyer would pay less if you did disclose, that's fraud. <br /><br />For defining fraud, don't be concerned about whether this or that counts as or 'alteration'<br />or if this type of alteration is good or bad, focus on whether or not the alteration<br />effects the market value of the card and wehther or not the seller is hiding it<br />specifically because he knows disclosure will lower the value.<br /><br />If one person thinks recoloring a 1953 Topps Mickey Mantle is evil and another thinks<br />the recoloring enhances the card and is morally good, they both have to disclose the<br />recoloring at sale as they both know recoloring lowers the market value for the card. <br />For defining fraud, the question of whether restoration is morally good or <br />morally bad is irelevant.

opinions- is taking a crease out really altering?
 

Posted By: <b>Cobby33</b><p>Sometimes, they grade a card "but for" the mark and qualify it with a "MK." Example, if a card would have gotten a "6" without the mark, it would get a "6 (MK)."<br /><br />Sometimes, PSA grades a card with a mark as the grade it would have gotten, but for the mark, knock it down a grade AND qualify it with a "MK." I.e., if a card would have otherwise gotten a "6," it gets a "5 (MK)."<br /><br />Sometimes, they just knock it down a grade (or not), without an "MK."<br /><br />Somtimes, they give a "MK" to a card without a mark (as they just did to me).<br /><br />By the same token, PSA (and others) generally give "AUT" or "A" to cards that have otherwise been altered. Sometimes they give beaters that are not altered, an "A" or "AUT."<br /><br />Absolutely no consistency internally, nor across the various grading companies.

opinions- is taking a crease out really altering?
 

Posted By: <b>cmoking</b><p>"Sometimes, they just knock it down a grade (or not), without an "MK.""<br /><br />If this is true, it is news to me. I thought they labeled all cards with marks as MK. Of course, it is possible they made some mistakes and didn't see the MK.