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Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>Colt, he's open to a point. Every time he's been exposed on the board here, when the heat really gets turned up, he goes quiet. This does nothing to help his reputation with those that don't know him. <br /><br />What baseless accusation have been made against him? The Young and Matty card have obviously been clean up and the Young pressed. Some think it's ok, such as Leon and others, but there are other people that do not feel that this ok. It thought part of what this board is about is helping people make educated decisions about who to buy from. If Charlie feels that cleaning up cards is ok, then he shouldn't have a problem with people asking what he's done to his cards.<br /><br />Jay<br><br>I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

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Posted By: <b>Steve M.</b><p><br /><br />"Outstanding eye appeal for the given grade. A VG-EX front with a slight scuff (caused by ink removal with a ink eraser) the reverse accounts for the accurate grade of 2.5."<br /><br />I believe the auctioneer has adequately disclosed the issue with the reverse. With that said I don't think this card should have received a numerical grade.<br />

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Posted By: <b>Judge Dred (Fred)</b><p>Can we turn this into a "what counts as altering" thread? We haven't rehashed that in a few weeks now. <br /><br />I don't think erasing pencil marks (or any mark for that matter)with an eraser should qualify as "altering" a card. Now, if you were to accidentally erase something and then try to recolor it back in then you've crossed to the dark side and should be publicly whipped. <br /><br />I don't subscribe to "freeing" a card from a grading holder in an effort to get a higher grade. On the other hand, who cares who does it? If you get a better grade then good for you. If you get a lower grade then you better get ready to pony up for the next round when it's submitted again. You can't blame people for trying. I'm not in the business of trying to profit from this hobby so I just don't care.

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Posted By: <b>joe</b><p>Charlie admits he erases ink and pencil marks. We all can see he did that on the back of the card. Maybe my eyes are not as good as others but the front looks the same to me. I don't flip cards, so maybe it's time to bid on Charlie's auctions, as some on the board probably won't be bidding. <br /><br />Joe<br><br>Ty Cobb, Spikes flying!

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>I have to agree with Jay (not his tone - Leon's suffered enough from this forum the past few days, give the guy a break). He's right. While some people are attacking Charlie, neither Jay nor I nor Mark are. We just want to know what the deal is with the cards. Look, I for one appreciate that this sort of stuff, i.e., pressing, altering, etc. goes on in any place on the net where vintage cards are sold. It happens on ebay every day. But Charlie is a board member and we just want to know what the deal is - and I think we deserve to know prior to bidding on his auctions. If he does not want to tell us, fine, he doesn't have to and he lives with the consequences. But it's just hard to understand when he says that no cards in his auction have been altered and then that Matty pops up. What is with that? Charlie, here's some advice: just tell the truth. Plenty of people will still buy the cards that have been touched up. But being evasive is not helping. I suspect half the people that bash you out here have probably done it themselves. Just tell the truth and let the chips fall. But getting these answers out of you has been something akin to root canal, no? And this debate is getting very tiresome. If you guys don't stop it I'm going back on Fox next week solely to inspire another viciously long thread about the direction our country is going in....

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Posted By: <b>Cobby33</b><p>I think part of the "blame" has to go to the grading companies for allowing re-submittals (if they allow them, we're all stuck with the consequences, good or bad) AND for being inconsistent with their own grading standards (not to mention not having any universal standards).<br /><br />As I had mentioned before, most people believe an "AUT" or "A" grade to mean that the card isn't fake, but it's been altered somehow. I recently purchased a T206 in a GAI holder with an "A" grade, becuase the corners were missing (probably came from an album). I re-submitted it to SGC (because the GAI holder was stained and because I prefer SGC), telling them I was merely looking for at least and "AUT" from them, which I received. The card was otherwise not altered - yet - I see plenty of beaters from PSA, et al., with "1" grades...I also see clearly altered cards with number designations. Mine wasn't altered, and got lumped with the same designation as trimmed and otherwise purposely-altered cards.<br /><br />Inconsistent and certainly unfair.

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Posted By: <b>Anonymous</b><p>I am being asked to defend myself again, so for the sake of my consignors I will.<br /><br />I did remove the ink with an eraser.<br /><br />I do not think removing ink is alteration.<br /><br />I do not think removing ink is cleaning a card.<br /><br />I was asked had I done anything else to any cards in the auciton and I said no. When I was asked the question I was not thinking about auction lot number 96 but if I had I would have still not mentioned it.<br /><br />Erasing pen is not cleaning or doctoring as it has been described by others.<br /><br />It is a $200 in a 2.5 and it looks worse than when it did have writing on it. So it was not in my mind that it needed to be disclosed. Erasing ink or pencil so common in the hobby that it is a joke that I am being slammed for it.<br /><br />This hobby is full of doctors and trimmers etc and none of it is disclosed. Try asking any auction house to disclose anything done to each and every card. I have offered a level of transperency that no other auction house has.<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>B.C.Daniels</b><p>erasing and flattening out a corner is probably not "restoration"<br />Besides,if the guys who grade this stuff cant see erasing then good for Charlie because those professional graders should be able to detect this stuff if they are going to downgrade or reject the card based on it. This has turned into what is considered to us improper or not in fiddling with a card.<br />air brushing for example would probably be considered restoring by the card community and the correct equipment will cost you $3186.45*<br /><br /><img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br />Jay,send me my eraser back!<br /><br /><img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1161483739.JPG">

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Posted By: <b>Anonymous</b><p>Jeff,<br /><br />Erasing is not altering. That is the problem. You are parsing the language. I was asked if any card was altered in my auction the answer then was no and it is no now.<br /><br />Erasing is not altering.<br /><br />Erasing is not altering.<br /><br />Erasing is not altering.<br /><br />I never lied about. You are wrong to suggest anything else. If you do not want to bid in my auction because I erased ink fine, but not because I did not disclose it.<br /><br />The question was alteration.<br /><br />It simply is disingenious to confuse the to make me accountable for both.<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>Charlie</b><p>Who are those people?

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Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>saying erasing isn't cleaning is liek saying putting a card ina screwdown holder isn't pressing a card. Just becuase ink or pencil lead isn't dirt doesn't mean you didn't clean up the card. Remocing anyhting distracting from the card is cleaning. Ink, pencil, dirt, stains, whatever it may be. Then again, i'm sure, like you, others will justify remocal/cleaning of pencil and ink as not cleaning. If it isn't cleaning up a card to make it look better, then what is it?<br /><br />Jay<br /><br /><br><br>I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

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Posted By: <b>Peter_Spaeth</b><p>I think the misunderstanding here is that Jeff asked you a much more specific question, not whether, using your definition, you had "altered" any cards. He asked whether you had done anything OTHER ThAN PUT THE CARDS IN THE SCREWDOWN, to which you answered, No, nothing else was done.<br /><br />So I think it was a matter of miscommunication.<br /><br />EDITED TO ADD Here is Jeff's exact question: "Charlie, I think all that Mark (and I) are asking is: has anything been done to the cards other than cracking them out and pressing them in a screwdown? Has any effort been made to remove marks? Anything else? That's all."

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Posted By: <b>Charlie</b><p>It is erasing.

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Excuse me for my ignorance but do PSA and SGC grade cards that they believe have had ink erased? Do they believe that this is not an alteration as Charlie does?

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Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>sounds more like symantics to me. <br /><br />Jay<br><br>I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

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Posted By: <b>Charlie</b><p>Peter,<br /><br />I agree. The last 24 hours has been pretty stressful and if I misintrepeted the quesiton I apologize. But why I goto the trouble to go through this whole inquest and try get away with the matty which will go for less than what I paid for it.<br /><br />There was never an attempt to deceive anyone with that card. <br /><br />There is nothing subtle about 1/3 of card missing paper and have writing surrounding it.

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Charlie, Peter is correct. I simply asked if you had done anything to the cards other than pressing and you said no. After evidence of the Matty alt--woops, erasing, came up you then copped to that. So let me be clear:<br /><br />Erasing is something more than nothing.<br /><br />Erasing is something more than nothing.<br /><br />Erasing is something more than nothing.<br /><br />I'll say it one more time with feeling: Erasing is something more than nothing.<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>JK</b><p>Charlie has repeatedly stated that he will attempt to remove pencil and ink from cards. I for one think there is nothing wrong with that. I also think that it only adds to charlie's credibility that he has never hid where he draws the line. His position was also well fleshed out before the scans of the matty were posted by jay. <br /><br />Jay - you appear to be on a witch hunt here. There is absolutley nothing nefarious about that matty. Pencil and or ink has been obviously removed from the back. The real problem (as alluded to by leon) is that GAI deemed the card to be worthy of a 2.5 - to me, its no better than a 10 or 20 (in fact, I bet in its current condition, if sent back to sgc, it would get a 10). Again, my opinion, this is more of a problem with gai than anything charlie did. Obviously charlie knows that gai is more lenient with regard to back damage - that is nothing new, I know that and I suspect most people here know that. You have failed to show me anything that charlie has altered (absent pencil/pen removal - which again, I dont feel is an alteration).

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Posted By: <b>B.C.Daniels</b><p>Charlie<br /><br />human punching bags from the Octagon on Iwo Jima where they slammed each other on a chat board during the Sabbath last night while trying to buy a gym sized eraser!<br /><br /><img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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Posted By: <b>Charlie</b><p>I feel like I am in the ring with Matt Hughes or Randy Coutour.

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Posted By: <b>B.C.Daniels</b><p><a href="http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0074486/" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0074486/</a><br /><br />Charlie have you seen it?<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>Charlie</b><p>Who were those people in the pictures? Somebody from the board?

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Posted By: <b>Charlie</b><p>Actually I missed that one. I heard it was all about alteration.

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Posted By: <b>B.C.Daniels</b><p>You had no issue with me until you opened your Tank Abbott sized mouth.<br /><br />Did I post links to your auctions?<br />Did I create a letter from some yahoo bs account and circulate it?<br /><br />NO Charlie.........I merely teased you about your handles I am well aware of since you have purchased cards from people on this board~

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Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>Josh, you and others may not consider removing pen and pencil, or pressing out creases alterations, but others do. <br /><br />I give Charlie props for for coming forward, but as was pointed, he along comes foward and admits to things after a long drawn out process. I really have no hard feeling towards Charlie personally. He's made a wonder offer in the past to try and patch up things between after he felt he was out of line. I can respect that. At the same time, I will take anyone to task if I see something questionable. I dont' care who the person is.<br /><br />I'd rate Charlie as dceent enough dealer that is much more forthcoming that most dealers.<br /><br />Jay<br><br>I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

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Posted By: <b>Charlie</b><p>Brian,<br /><br />I have always liked talking with you. I was kind of backed into a corner and I reacted. I regret it now.<br /><br />Does this mean we can put the blankets in the auction.<br /><br />I will take out the matty and replace it with the blankets.

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Posted By: <b>B.C.Daniels</b><p>Re: Deleted auction thread October 21 2006, 10:38 PM <br /><br /> "Who were those people in the pictures? Somebody from the board "<br /><br /><br />Charlie,are you drinking? look above! I stated in the Subject title it was jay and his brother. (joke-in case Jay wants to hire your dad to sue me or "make me pay" )<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>JK</b><p>Jeff,<br /><br />For what it is worth, I interpreted both yours and marks question to deal with the original four or five cards in jays other post (including the cy young - which, according to jay, he had the biggest issue with). I did not interpret the question to mean every card in the auction. I dont think the original question was as clear as you may believe it to have been.

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Posted By: <b>Charlie</b><p>Brian,<br /><br />Which one was Jay?

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Posted By: <b>B.C.Daniels</b><p>you are not implying that piece of crap matty is mine now are you?????<br /><br />you could have hired me to restore it properly for you!<br />I am an expert at air brushing.......... would you like to see some of my art work via oil on canvass? I have restored paintings for three board members!

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Posted By: <b>Peter_Spaeth</b><p>I think you are wrong, Jeff's question was a follow up to Mark's who asked:<br />"Did you use any of these techniques on any of the cards offered in your current auction or were they merely cards you cracked out and resubmitted?"<br />

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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>With all due respect the questions being asked seemed to be general in nature. Did anyone ever ask Charlie "Did you erase ink from the back of the Matty in question?" If he answered "no" then you are correct. To ask if he altered cards in his auction and he answered no...well, from what I have seen, given his and many others definition of altering, I think he answered correctly. We might just have to agree to disagree on this one. With respect to altering as I define it I still have not seen a real shred of evidence more than his twisted words....show me the beef? Where are the cards in his auctions that most would consider altered? Isn't that the real question instead of all of the interrogation?

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Josh, I disagree. I was referencing Mark's question which was the following:<br /><br />"In your next post, you list list your techiniques for imporving cards (erasing, removing stains, laying down corners, art erasers, etc.) that you have use in the past. <br /><br />Did you use any of these techniques on any of the cards offered in your current auction or were they merely cards you cracked out and resubmitted?"<br /><br />The operative words being, of course, "any of the cards offered in your current auction ...."<br /> <br /><br />Leon, of course that is the $64,000 question -- are any of Charlie's cards altered. I don't know myself - which is why I asked him. I'm not accusing him of anything other than being a horrible witness. Mark clearly asked if any cards in his auction had been altered. Mark's definition of 'altered' included erasing. Charlie said no...until he said yes (shades of John Kerry; can't we please bring that topic back to life???). <br /><br />Charlie, I honestly don't mean to give you a hard time. Like Jay said, some of us don't want to buy cards that have erased marks. Simple as that. I'm still bidding on some of the cards in your auction. I think you just got very unecessarily defensive to (at least mine) simple questions.

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Posted By: <b>B.C.Daniels</b><p>the big guy who will kick my ass next time he sees me and all your fault!<br /><br /><img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1161485248.JPG"> <br /><br />these were not restored,flattened,pressed,soaked or erased in any way!<br /><br /><img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br /><br />next person who "interrogates" Charlie gets sued by me after I go toe to toe with them in some ambiguios octagon in space! <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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Posted By: <b>JK</b><p>Jay - when you post, try and make your posts accurate. I stated that I dont believe erasing pencil/pen to be alteration. I said nothing about pressing a crease and yet you lump me in that group. Now, as far as putting a card in a screwdown - an item designed to hold a card - that is not pressing in my opinion. Pressing would be something akin to wetting the card and rolling to flatten out creases. I never condoned that - nor, to my knowledge, did charlie. What do you hold all of your ungraded cards in? I certainly hope you dont have any in screwdowns because if you do, you will forever be known as a "presser" in my book.

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Posted By: <b>Charlie</b><p>It sounds like I was wrong about oh well I tried to get the heat off me. Sorry peter.<br />

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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>That would be a false statement, from the way it looks, but still not change my mind about the altering of cards in his auction. Show me the cards that have been altered, by most people's definition, or let's get out of court? This is all said in friendliness, btw...

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Posted By: <b>JK</b><p>Peter/Jeff - I stand corrected as to the question itself. However, the thread and the accusations last night revolved around 4 or 5 cards. To me, they were the issue and placed in that context, I misinterpreted the question. But you are right - I did not read the question correctly myself.

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Posted By: <b>Charlie</b><p>Leon,<br /><br />Did you know your E103 cobb sold for $11000 on ebay?

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Posted By: <b>Charlie</b><p>Brian,<br /><br />If I can have the blankets implace of the matty lot, I will give you the Matty.<br />

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Posted By: <b>JK</b><p>Jeff/Peter - I will also add, that mark's question was "were any of these techniques used to IMPROVE the cards". Despite the grade, I dont think the matty was improved at all. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>I never personally owned that E103. I buy a few cases for display each year from Scott B. so it was probably his...I never owned that card...just to clarify..

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>My God, the time we have wasted on this thread. I could have billed a few more hours and used the booty to buy some of Charlie's erased cards by now.... <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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Posted By: <b>B.C.Daniels</b><p>did you bid on it? just wondering. Don't make me check!

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Posted By: <b>Charlie</b><p>Broklemen has great stuff at the nationl.

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Posted By: <b>Charlie</b><p>Bid on what?<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>If that was the E103 Cobby then I did own it. I didn't own the Lajoie pictured in this thread...I guess my head is spinning. If he got 11k for that card he owes me a soda at next years National, if he goes. Congratulations to him. I wish he would have gotten 100k for it. Bless his heart.... Why not? <br /><br />btw, I know that Greg had two E103 Cobby's including mine at the National (or owned at the time)...the other was much nicer than mine...so be careful here...

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Posted By: <b>B.C.Daniels</b><p>but do I still get the $50 the blankets will realize after your faithful try to push me outside when no one is looking at a show in LA or San Fran and you taunt me to go to blows with you? I'm retired and wont do it just so you know. I believe in the 30 pound rule. I will not mess with anyone who is 30 pounds heavier than I at my age. I only weigh 180 so you and Jay will have to go toe to toe. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br />bid on what??<br /><br />The E-103 COBB Charlie what else?

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Posted By: <b>Charlie</b><p>Leon,<br /><br />I am with you but that is not the vibe I get from this crew. I don't here the champange bottles popping after I got the cobb from a 3 to a 4

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Posted By: <b>Charlie</b><p>Done.<br /><br />I will make the change tomorrow after I get some rest. I love card shows I am too busy trying to get upgrades to worry about fighting anybody, especially someone who it 0-1 in the UFC, Just joking.<br /><br />Charlie

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Posted By: <b>Charlie</b><p>I did not bid on the e103 too rich for my blood, I like to play the 200 matty 1.5s so I can get into in a 2.5 in order to make 12.81 net of fees.<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>B.C.Daniels</b><p>you need to go view that link again.that was NOT the UFC!<br /><br />shall I come to the next big show in full AF uniform with insignias as to where I was in the service? You ignored my challenge of putting coin in Paypal to back up with proof your claims you slammed me with? the "weirdest" person one was the killer Charlie! That one really hurt! What did you miss about my letter Friday morning about a family incident occupying my time and mind and heart. Do you not read e-mails and take any of them to heart or are you the only person you feel tells the truth about anything? You enjoy talking to someone you have these feelings about??? I doubt that very much sir.

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Posted By: <b>Charlie</b><p>I am sorry if you are having personal problems. It puts baseball cards into perspective.<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>B.C.Daniels</b><p>I told you two days ago there was a death in the family. try explaining that to children and dealing with it for a week or so.<br /><br /><br />by your own words this is "your life"! <br />that sounds pretty important. As I stated prior:<br /><br />"money does not change people it exposes them!"<br /><br />I sent you scans just now of a painting I restored from begining to end.<br /><br />should I go into business as a card dealer?<br /><br /><br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>Charlie</b><p>Brian,<br /><br />I did not receive your email?

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Posted By: <b>B.C.Daniels</b><p><br />--------------------------------------------------------------------------------<br /><br />From: CD [<a href="mailto:cardknowledge@earthlink.net">cardknow ledge@earthlink.net</a>] <br />Sent: Thursday, October 19, 2006 12:38 PM<br />To: 'WWW.MANONTHEROCK.COM'<br />Subject: RE: Bidding Begins Friday October 20th<br /><br /> <br /><br />I cant call now. Putting out a huge fire with family death and my daughter is using my cell phone and will not answer from numbers she does not recognize as instructed.<br /><br /> <br /><br />Whatcha need? I don’t have a home phone Charlie my wife got rid of that about four years ago. that is my cell and you can leave a message or just e-mail me whatever but I cant return anyone’s calls now.<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>B.C.Daniels</b><p>how to airbrush???<br /><br />or <br /><br />how to do this?<br /><a href="http://physics.bu.edu/~pradeep/hacking.htm" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://physics.bu.edu/~pradeep/hacking.htm</a><br /><br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>Charlie</b><p>Brian,<br /><br />We can talk tomorrow. I am very sorry to hear about the death in the family.<br /><br />Charlie

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Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>Josh, I have not owned a screwdown holder since I returned to the hobby 5 years ago. Even I got out in 1991, the only screwdowns I owned were ones with recesses so that there was no pressure being put on the card. I use semi-rigid top loaders for raw cards and cards that get sent to SGC go into rigid top laoders. <br /><br />I can only think of one reason why anyone would take the time to put a card in a screwdown before putting into a semi rigid holder for sending it to a grading sompany . That reason would be to try and press the card some in order to try and minimize any wrinkles/creases. Guess I'm just lazy, but putting a card into a screwdown and then taking it out is a lot of wasted time unless it's serving some purpose. If it isn't to try and press the card and smooth it out, I'd love to hear why it's being done then. Otherwise, it's a lot of effort for no apparent reason.<br /><br />Jay- the only octagon I fought was a stop sign I beat up while drunk <img src="/images/wink.gif" height=14 width=14><br><br>I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

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Posted By: <b>B.C.Daniels</b><p>about the blankets and the Matty. I will be gone all day tomorrow from 8.30am to dawn with family matters. You get a break from me. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br />weird is good. I claim insanity at trials and try to choke myself out and knee bar myself as well.

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Posted By: <b>warshawlaw</b><p>GAI. Does anyone there know anything about card grading? With that degree of back damage and that Matty still draws a 2.5? I've seen so many GAI cards that are ridiculously overgraded. Here is my favorite from my collection--two nice big peels on the front and it still rated fair:<br /><br /><img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1161540322.JPG"> <br /><br />Now compare that with this SGC fair Tinker:<br /><br /><img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1161540380.JPG">

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Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>It's true that GAI has gained a reputation for overgrading cards, but their cards do not realize the same prices for the same grades that an SGC or PSA card does. <br /><br />Jay<br><br>I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

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Posted By: <b>BcDaniels</b><p>you read through all this ****?