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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Not bashing at all. I think you are being extremely sensitive and responsive to the opinions of the board. And since there are so many divergent ones, in the end it will be your decision and I for one will support it. You may get some flak and lose a few posters if you go corporate but I think you know there is a right way to do it and you will strive to achieve that.

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Posted By: <b>RayB</b><p>...a banner above the Board would not be objectionable to me. Seems we want everything to function as is including loading speeds.<br />Leon deserves the extra revenue for years of dedication to this sites maintenance.<br />RayB

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Posted By: <b>Al C.risafulli</b><p>From experience, it is VERY common for various internet-related concerns to start off as a free service and, at some point, begin deriving revenue from it through the sale of advertising. I think the issues people have with internet advertising are legitimate, but usually wind up being overblown.<br /><br />The key is, in my opinion, to make sure that the advertisers understand that they are advertising BECAUSE of the flavor of the site and its users, and that they shouldn't expect that flavor to change in any way.<br /><br />The flavor of this board is driven by the moderators and membership. Any advertiser would need to understand that it's entirely likely at some point that their advertisement might appear at the top of a thread that's critical of them. But I can't see that any advertiser would have a problem with that - whether their ad is here or not, the criticisms will still happen.<br /><br />Futher, I'll agree with Griffin's statements about the workload of being a board moderator. I'm all for Leon making as much money as he can at it. After all, WE can all make money from it - why shouldn't Leon? <br /><br />-Al

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Posted By: <b>ramram</b><p>This board can often resemble a soap opera so I can't wait until the first time some bashing occurs and an advertiser pulls their ad. Lips will be flying with "who kissed who", "who broke up with who" and even "who shot who". Could get interesting at times.<br /><br />I say go for it.<br /><br />Rob M.

Banner advertising on the board?
 

Posted By: <b>john/z28jd</b><p> Leon,ill agree to it(eventho i wasnt one of those prolific members you contacted ahead of time) if you split the profits evenly with Elliot and Bill. I think the front page banner should change monthly so it doesnt look like any large company sponsors the board,im sure you could get at least 12 different sponsors to pay the same fee for the front page.So if a place like Mastro for instance wanted a certain month because their big auction always falls during it,then they could reserve it yearly.Someone like Robert Edwards always has a once a year April auction,so that would be a good month for them to advertise.<br /><br /> You could have permanent sponsors for lesser fees(based on page hits) on the B/S/T link,the vintage link site,and the forum rules page and pages like this one im on right now to post a response.<br /><br /> So as long as you split profits 3 ways evenly with the Canadian and whats his name,then i vote yes

Banner advertising on the board?
 

Posted By: <b>John Harrell</b><p>I have belonged to the OBC group for many years and we have always resisted ads on our website; however, we have small dues charge each year which covers the cost of the website and we divide duties among a number of people so that no one person has to do it all. That said, I don't think an ad or two will affect the character of this board and Leon is certainly entitled to cover his costs in money and time. <br /><br />Go for it Leon.<br /><br />John

Banner advertising on the board?
 

Posted By: <b>Jay</b><p>One additional issue was pointed out to me this morning which I think needs mentioning. Many new/inexperienced collectors visit this board not knowing much about vintage cards. Their seeing banner ads from certain advertisers communicates to them that we support these establishments when in fact that may not be the case. Just because Auction House X, for example, buys a banner ad does not necessarily mean that "we" believe that it is the best auction house.

Banner advertising on the board?
 

Posted By: <b>john/z28jd</b><p> Jay,im not speaking for Leon,just going off the top of my head but would you be okay with the idea if the banners were pre-approved by prolific board members such as you and I and others. Say like hall of fame standards where 75% had to agree with it?

Banner advertising on the board?
 

Posted By: <b>Jay</b><p>John--I don't think that does it. I'm sure 75% of the board members would approve most major auction houses(Mastro, REA, Lelands, Hunt, etc.). However, by posting one of their banner ads we are implicitly saying to a viewer that this ONE auction house is the one we believe they should consign to.<br />Again, I have not gotten a good answer to what kind of money we are talking about here. Is this $10/month for a banner ad to offset Leon's costs or is it $1000/month. While the final amount may not have been negotiated yet I'm sure Leon has some sort of idea what he will be asking for.

Banner advertising on the board?
 

Posted By: <b>Josh K.</b><p>Im sorry, but are we all really that stupid to think that just because mastro has placed an ad at the top of an internet website that mastro must be the best auction house out there? <br /><br />I mean come on - how many other websites do you visit in a day? Are we so unwise to the mysterious ways of advertising to believe that all of those websites support the companies that pay for the largely ignored ads on those sites?<br /><br />Oh wait, gotta go, forgot that I need to call my agent at Vinny's No Cost Mortage Company - I found them through an ad on ESPN's website - low low rates. Right after that, Im calling my broker at Discount Dan's House of Stocks - found them on Morningstar.com.

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Posted By: <b>Jay</b><p>Josh--you may not be but some inexperienced collector could be.

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Posted By: <b>Josh K.</b><p>I tend to believe that even the most inexperienced collector is probably an experienced internet user, tv watcher, magazine reader, etc. and therefore well aware how advertising works. Just like I dont believe NBC would rather my kids wear pampers over huggies, I think newbies can figure out that a banner ad is a paid advertisement and not an endorsement. Maybe Im just giving people more credit than they deserve.

Banner advertising on the board?
 

Posted By: <b>Tom Boblitt</b><p>inexperienced bidders that can afford to buy something in Mastro's auctions anymore....given the current average lot sales prices......<br /><br />I support pretty much whatever Leon does with this although I support transparency if possible on what revenues it's bringing (or at least what's being charged per ad or per impression). I also think that Eliot and Bill should be compensated although Leon does more now probably than they, so 3 way split might not be equitable.....<br /><br />I would rather see MULTIPLE ads sold at a # of impressions, so one single entity doesn't really 'control' (I know they won't control) all the advertising because I would be more inclined to agree with Jay at that point that it would look like we were advocating a single entity out there. Most of us bid with most, if not all, the auction houses (large and small) and many of us use multiple grading companies (if we grade).<br /><br />As Dennis Miller used to say.....Just my opinion, I could be wrong....

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Posted By: <b>John</b><p>“One at a time from multiple companies.Wish I would have thought of that. I'll buy you an extra drink at the National for that one.”<br /><br />“As far as getting a commission kickback on sales ....hmm...I tell ya what...anything you buy or sell on the BST you can send me some money. I'll take it. Fair enough on that point...and thanks again.”<br /><br />Leon why the sarcastic attitude wow? The above points I made were purely for arguments sake. And also to point out to everyone here who is so for it, what others like Jay & Richard has pointed out. <br /><br />That were not really talking about offsetting costs per say, but about making money via advertising. I think you polished it well with dinner invitations etc. But I know this revenue would generate well above the said $200 a year cost to operate the board. I also remember Bill and Elliot’s days these people managed to maintain the board without outside influences. You want money for your time, understood. However this was a non-paying gig when you took as it was for the other 2 moderators before you. <br /><br />Is this really a question of offsetting cost, or more a question of making money via the board? You sold it as offsetting cost, but it sounds more like a business opportunity vs. cost/time issues.<br /><br />So why the change and where does the line get drawn? That’s all?<br />

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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>It was sarcastic as you got that way (imo), that's all. I absolutely enjoy you making fun of me in the little cartoons. I can't tell you how many times I have called my 9yr old daughter into my office to see what you have done to me ....it's awesome. I have an uncanny resemblance to Mr.Mint and that's the only drawback <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>. I sincerely hope you stay regardless of what happens. I could use the time on the board to generate some income some other ways but I do enjoy the board so figured IF I could generate the income, without coming out of anyone's pocket, and the board didn't change, it wouldn't be so terrible. That's all ...and my apologies if I offended you. I was being a little defensive. best regards<br /><br />Tom- no way would the ad's be dominated by a, or a few, companies. They wouldn't be charged for impressions or hits only a monthly fee....regards also

Banner advertising on the board?
 

Posted By: <b>DR</b><p>Questions answered...thank you.

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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>I don't know the monthly rate range yet. Once you cross the line of taking ads I don't believe the amount, contrary to a few opinions, matters. What's the old joke about offering a person $10 for a sexual favor and them saying no..then offering a million and them saying yes.....then it's just negotiating....I think a ballpark could be a few hundred dollars per month for a top line banner....but again, not sure....hope this helps...I think Gil said it best.... once we establish that you are a slut <img src="/images/sad.gif" height=14 width=14> don't be a cheap one. I am almost through with my responses unless I see something new I haven't responded too..... If this happens each person will have to decide what they want to do. I am happy so many folks don't think it's that big of a deal and am sure, regardless of the decision, we will still have a lot of fun.....

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Posted By: <b>Cobby33</b><p>Are we taking ourselves a little too seriously here? I mean, we're talking about an innocuous "banner ad" that exists on most every website we visit. I hardly think it's Big Brother-esque, I mean, we're talking baseball cards here, not plotting against the government. I hope that these advertisers would have better things to do than to "monitor" what we post and I know that most people on this Board won't hold back, thinking that Joe Orlando is going to retaliate if we criticize PSA- and if he does-sobeit. Leon has made it clear that he's not going to "mointor" posts based upon who advertises.<br /><br />Maybe I'm being dense, but I'm missing the point as to the objection. In a perfect world, we would be free of advertisements. But, if this will make life easier for the guy who puts in a tremendous amount of time (and patience) helping us babble on (hi Leon <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> ), then what's the issue?

Banner advertising on the board?
 

Posted By: <b>Jay</b><p>Leon--I think several people are concerned with the amount of money involved here. Personally, I want no part of a commercial site. However, others, if the amount of money involved was significant, might want to share in the revenue stream since it is their posts that make the site, as much or more than you running it. If there is a monetary incentive to run a site will there be similar sites that start up--you bet there will be. What will be the end result--a dilution of the knowledge base that has resided here. I would hope that if you need the revenue that you would go after it in a different way and turn the board over to someone who would keep it non-commercial.

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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>I am biting my tongue so hard it's bleeding. IF you feel so strongly then you need to do as you must. take care....

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Posted By: <b>Josh K.</b><p>Ok, I will say it:<br /><br />Do you even think through these arguments?<br /><br />"it is their posts that make the site, as much or more than you running it"<br /><br />Thats the equivilent of me asking the networks for a piece of their advertising revenue because with out me and the other millions of viewers, no one would watch their shows.<br /><br />Next, before someone else sets up a "commercial" site - they better have members and a base or there will be no ad revenue. <br /><br />Finally, since most people arent against this idea, just who is going to leave this site to go to another "commercial" site? <br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>I don't think it would be possible to start another site and have even 1% of the traffic that net54 has.

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Posted By: <b>Jay</b><p>Josh-- I might ask you the same thing. Does the TV viewer provide the network's content? No, and therefore they have no call on any portion of the revenue stream. The production companies do provide the content and last time I checked they did have significant revenue streams for their efforts. The posters on the board provide the content; the lurkers do not. One might argue that the posters who provide the most should share in the revenue stream. Again, the lurkers deserve nothing since they add nothing.

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Posted By: <b>Josh K.</b><p>Actually Jay, I thought through that very point and, while my example was not perfect, it is true that without viewers, there would be no advertising and therefore no content.

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Posted By: <b>darren</b><p>As far as I am concerned it's none of my business, but thank you Leon for asking.

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Posted By: <b>Rick McQuillan</b><p>I enjoy this board very much and I appreciate the fact that it is free. Put me down as a "yes".<br /><br />Rick

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Posted By: <b>Will</b><p>I agree with Dr. D. As a longtime lurker and very infrequent poster, I don't really care what the site looks like - just what's in it. If I just discovered this place and it was covered with ads on each page, it would never even occur to me who got and how much the revenue is. I sincerely doubt that Leon is looking at this as a personal opportunity for enrichment - just to get back to even. I don't know how the moderator crown is acquired, but I haven't seen any of the objectors offer to step up in order to keep the site "pure". As in most volunteer situations, the effort is twice as expected, the reward about half. Let no good deed go unpunished.<br />William List<br />(Leon - can we have an East Coast dinner sometime? Especially since you will be buying)

Banner advertising on the board?
 

Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>If you all come into Brooklyn, I might even pick up the tab. I rarely stray too far out of my neighborhood. We can meet at Peter Luger's, the best steakhouse there is.

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Posted By: <b>Cobby33</b><p>I'm there.

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Posted By: <b>Joe D.</b><p>Put me on the mailing list for that.<br /><br />sounds good to me.

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Posted By: <b>Peter Spaeth</b><p>Seems like no big deal to me, unless the situation developed where an advertiser pressured Leon to remove or dilute content that was critical of the advertiser, but I assume even if such a now hypothetical situation were to arise (as I suppose it could in the case of an auction house) Leon would not do so.

Banner advertising on the board?
 

Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>You know, you can go broke treating everybody at Peter Luger's. But at least you go broke with a full stomach and a smile on your face. Best porterhouse steak in the world! For those who have been there, you know what I'm saying.

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Posted By: <b>Tom Boblitt</b><p>Peter Lugers.........I'll call when I'm in town next time.......Leon offered Sizzler but the steak's just a wee bit tough......

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Comparing Luger's to Sizzler's is like comparing a T206 Wagner to the Billy Ripken with "f*** you" on the bat.

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Posted By: <b>Trevor Hocking</b><p>WOW this thread got really long before I read it. Well as one of the first posters on this site after the Full Count board went crazy and broke off into this site, I can see this board heading the same way with this thread now. I have talked with Leon about this in detail before he posted this and my response to him was, I think it is going to cause some waves and loose some people. I also said, would I want to run this board, NO!!!! and would I want to be paid something for it if I was YES!!! So something does have to change because I know I don't want to do it and I would "guess" that the people against the ads don't want to run this site themselves without compensation either. I think Leon does a ton of work on this site and should get compensated for it as well as the past moderators for building it in the first place. What is the best rout for that I do not know. As Jay does bring up a good point about the content providers of this site and what if BOB's Auctions starts buying ad space here and John Smith a big poster from the past stops posting because he hates BOB's auction? After reading the posts here I am getting a little worried. I would hate to see any person who holds great information for this hobby to stop posting, even if they hardly ever post. In-fact I would hate to see anything lost from this site at all. I read it everyday. I also love that it's a free site.<br /><br />Leon, I would like to say when you first posted this thread you gave me the impression that you where asking the boards opinions about the ads before you did it. But now that I read some of your replies I have the impression you have already made your mind up and are basically saying, "IF you feel so strongly then you need to do as you must. take care...." I just wanted to let you know the impression I am getting from all of this. Am I correct in assuming you already made your mind up that the ads are a go?<br /><br />Like I said I don't want to run this site so who am I to say Leon can't get paid for his time, but I do not want to see this community change in anyway either.<br /><br />Trevor Hocking

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Posted By: <b>Cobby33</b><p>I still don't understand why people would stop posting, or would censor their own posts? But- I've never claimed to be smart...

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Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>I find I am very much in Jay's camp on this issue. Besides, I like his idea of cutting in the major posters <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> Besides, as pointed out, people myself, Barry, Mark Macrae, Frank Ward and other posters with vast knowledge are the true draw of this board. Without that knowledge base, this board is nothing but a chatroom.<br /><br />Trevor also makes a good observation, this post wasn't made by Leon with his mind undecided. Each psot he made gave the impression that he had already decided that he will be running ads and that he is basically trying to find out how flack he is going to get.<br /><br />I'm against the ads. There more than enough frequenters of the board that if if everyone pitched in jsut $1 each, it would more than cover costs and give Leon a little money for his effort. If I was running the board, that's pretty much how I'd do it.<br /><br />Jay<br /><br />I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>Actually you are wrong. I had not made my mind up and still haven't. The overwhelming majority don't have an issue with a banner ad. Jay Miller has, from what I can tell, the biggest issue...and was really getting under my skin so I basically told him he needs to do what he needs to do. That's all. I called him after that post and we talked for a few minutes. He didn't change his mind but at least we talked about it. I still haven't made my mind up but if I let the board vote on it, according to this thread, most folks don't have a problem with it. It's just not that big of a deal unless you make it one.... So I am leaning towards giving it a try. Thanks for your input.....and best regards...

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Posted By: <b>Cobby33</b><p>"Besides, as pointed out, people myself, Barry, Mark Macrae, Frank Ward and other posters with vast knowledge are the true draw of this board. Without that knowledge base, this board is nothing but a chatroom."<br /><br />HUH???<br />

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Posted By: <b>Al C.risafulli</b><p>Nice.<br /><br />-Al

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Jay- I appreciate the kind words but I would never ask for anything in return for posting on this board. I actually enjoy it and it is a kind of hobby for me. I accept that I have been around the hobby a long time but I post because I like sharing information. Leon does all the work, not me. If something is aggravating I can just shut off the computer; Leon can't, he has to deal with it. I think he should give it a try and I think he will know in a reasonably short time what if any problems he will have to deal with.

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Posted By: <b>Josh K.</b><p>Jay B - please tell me that was an attempt at sarcasm.

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Posted By: <b>Denny</b><p>Mr. Leon, I read alot...posting once in awhile..so my input on this topic, in my opinion, won't way much on your decision. I would be here with or without the banners! I would stand behind your decision. I trust that you'll see this thru & I like the way you set up disbanning the whole idea if it doesn't seem to be working out. I do need to ask you one question though...If you want the boards demeanor to stay the same, Why change it at all? Will this change it? If it does, than won't you change the demeanor? Okay, that was 3 Questions... It's all Good! But, I am glad that you're making the decision though!!!! Your Irish Friend, Denny

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Posted By: <b>Joann</b><p>This is both simple and complicated.<br /><br />Simple - here are the things we all seem to agree on, for the most part:<br /><br />1) No individual should have to bear the cost of site maintenance alone.<br />2) The time it takes to maintain the site should also be worth at least someting.<br />3) We all like the site, and want to keep it as close to its present feel, policy, culture, etc, as possible.<br /><br />Complicated:<br /><br />If we all agree that money should be somewhere in the picture, then it can only come from one of two sources - internal or external. The site can either go "corporate" (someone earlier used that term, and it's probably pretty correct) or "co-op".<br /><br />I don't object to ads, but also have some agreement with those that object to it. I don't think a day goes by that I am not dealing with the Law of Unintended Consequences in one way or another. It's a slippery slope - if you make this change, there is no way to know what all will come of it down the road.<br /><br />I also don't think anyone has a major problem with Leon doing it because there seems to be high regard for his outlook and philosophy. But what if the next person is different, and the ad barrier has already been broken? That might be a whole 'nother story. <br /><br />So the only other option to help out financially is to have the users pay for the use. I would not mind that, myself. I also know that many of the most valuable posters would mind having to pay for it.<br /><br />Maybe better minds than mine can come up with a Solomon-like solution. I would not only be willing to kick in myself if that's what it comes down to, but I would also be willing to put in more so that others could post without paying, if need be. Like I said ... complicated.<br /><br />But if there is general agreement that some kind of financial input into the system is needed, then either ads should be okay or we should collectively try to come up with a workable alternative.<br /><br />Workable = financially manageable for everyone, covers cost and time and is not excessively burdensome to administer.<br /><br />Any Solomon's out there?<br /><br />Joann

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Posted By: <b>Gilbert Maines</b><p>I really hope that no one takes offense at this post. There is no offense intended. My intent is to highlight statements which may represent outstanding issues perhaps worthy of further discussion, and in some instances bring a little levity to the subject, which is certainly deserved imho. This subject is far from earth sharrtering in its import.<br /><br />I think that if I was a wise man, at this juncture I would accept one stated opinion, specifically:<br /><br />As far as I am concerned it's none of my business, but thank you Leon for asking.<br /><br />But I am not that man. The man that I am feels as if he is a part of a team on which each player does what he can for the common good. And on this team there are many Hodges’, Campanellas, Sniders, Robinsons, etc. and there are also Don Zimmers, John Roseboros, Sandy Amoros and so on. And I certainly do not fancy myself as any of them. But having established myself as an other than wise man, let me forge forward into the crack of my doom.<br /><br />Is Net54 an entity which can be actually owned? If so, is it actually owned, as stated below?<br /><br />leon leon <br />(Premier Login leonl)<br />Forum Owner<br /><br />If this is owned, sell it on eBay or wherever you can, is my recommendation. Keep the proceeds and let the new owners worry about moderating us. And selling ad space.<br /><br />That may be entirely silly, or it may be the catalyst.<br /><br />In any case there has been some rationale stated worthy of further comment. Of these statements, I have selected the following to be looked at again:<br /><br />“ … others, if the amount of money involved was significant, might want to share in the revenue stream since it is their posts that make the site, as much or more than you running it”. <br /><br />This seems true on the surface. However, the initial thrust of our current effort was to minimize OT posts. This is what was wanted, offered and accomplished. All with no small effort on Leon’s part. And while maintaining on topic focus in the threads, Leon has contributed inquiries, information and insight pretty close to as much as anyone.<br /><br />Another statement:<br /><br />“One might argue that the posters who provide the most should share in the revenue stream. Again, the lurkers deserve nothing since they add nothing”.<br /><br />I do not agree with this at all. I do not offer my commentary as an actor, consultant, protestor, infidel, passerby, or in any capacity; and I demand to be uncompensated for my efforts  Of course, it is also convenient that no one has accused me of being a “poster who provides the most”.<br /><br />But also, does anyone really think that an advertiser would offer Leon the windfall amounts that they are talking, solely based on the number of posters which we have? Oh no, no, no. The value is in the lurkers.<br /><br />And the ever popular copout: <br />“As far as I am concerned it's none of my business, but thank you Leon for asking”.<br />Come on. We are all on the team. Pull your weight. Don’t give me that I am too humble to offer my opinion malarky.<br /><br />And the seemingly inappropriate, but actually dead center on our weak point bullseye:<br /><br />“ … what if BOB's Auctions starts buying ad space here and John Smith a big poster from the past stops posting because he hates BOB's auction”? <br /><br />Oh no. Now its time to take a stand:<br />“I like his idea of cutting in the major posters Besides, as pointed out, people myself, Barry, Mark Macrae, Frank Ward and other posters with vast knowledge are the true draw of this board. Without that knowledge base, this board is nothing but a chatroom”.<br /><br />What is more useless the guy with the answers but no questions, or the one with the questions without answers? Oh wait, I know. It does not apply. We are a team. And on our team, everyone thinks that they are the best – and will tell you why – for as long as you will listen. That is, almost everybody.<br /><br />Money is a useful tool, when used correctly.<br />A hammer may be better if driving a nail is the task at hand.<br />A chainsaw works best when cutting down a tree.<br />Anyone know how to best use money in this context?<br /><br />Right now it seems like the potential for money is making people crazy.<br />

Banner advertising on the board?
 

Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>Josh, no, it was a serious comment. You take away the knowledgable people of this board and all you have left are a bunch of collectors chatting about cards, wishing that someone knew more about what they are collecting.<br /><br />I don't have a problem sharing my knowledge. Just like Barry, I don't mind freely dispensing it. I also don't have a problem with Leon getting some nominal compensation for the work he does. Where I have a problem is if Leon, or whoever might be running the board, starts making a large chunk of money (not sure what dollar amount that would be) then I want to see people like Barry, Frank, etc compensated for their knowledge. Leon may be doing the dirty work behind the scenes but he is replacable, but the board will live and die with it's knowledge base. Do you really think this board would be as good if Barry, Frank, Jay Miller, etc quit dispensing valuable information? These people are far more difficult to replace than Leon as moderator.<br /><br />Jay<br><br>I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

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Posted By: <b>Peter_Spaeth</b><p>From my perspective there are a great number of knowledgeable people on this board and I don't think it would suffer much if one or two prima donnas took their toys and left over a nonissue like a banner on the page. You people may think Leon is "replaceable" but how many of us would be willing to devote the time and energy he has?

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Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>Peter, this issue isn't really with banner ad, it's with how much money will be generated. As I pointed out, there is no need to resort to banner ads. A simple call for donations should more than cover anything. If there are 750 different people reading this baord and we each send $1 to Leon, I's think that is more than enough to cover expenses and compensate him for something he claims to love.<br /><br />Jay<br /><br />I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

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Posted By: <b>Peter_Spaeth</b><p>This is a baseball card chat board, who on earth is going to spend any serious money to have a banner here. Cmon let's be real.

Banner advertising on the board?
 

Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>Well, no one seems to have any idea what kind of moeny Leon is talking about, but I have a rough idea base on one ad I have on my personal site. Given what I get for my ad on my site, I'm pretty sure Leon will be getting about about 20-50 times the amount I getting paid to have an ad on my site based on hits here and hits on my site.<br /><br />Jay<br><br>I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

Banner advertising on the board?
 

Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>I am for the banners as well as Leon making money.<br /><br />The colossal ego of a certain person on this board is appalling.......the "draw of the board". <br /><br />We can only hope as Peter says that he will take his toys and go home so that more graded vintage collectors will join.

Banner advertising on the board?
 

Posted By: <b>Cobby33</b><p>Seriously. Get real. Most of what I hear from (some of) the self-proclaimed "expert(s)" is a bunch of editorial, off-topic (yet sometimes amusing) drivel and NO "knowledge" about cards.<br /><br />As I said before, let's stop taking ourselves so seriously and have some humilty (and fun?) for Pete's sake.

Banner advertising on the board?
 

Posted By: <b>Peter_Spaeth</b><p>"I'm pretty sure Leon will be getting about about 20-50 times the amount I getting paid to have an ad on my site based on hits here and hits on my site."<br /><br />So Leon will be getting 20 to 50 dollars a pop? <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

Banner advertising on the board?
 

Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Cobby,<br /><br />Absolutely.<br /><br />Now Peter and King,<br /><br />How much can we charge for our graded card expertise here, hmmmm(ha ha ha).

Banner advertising on the board?
 

Posted By: <b>Peter_Spaeth</b><p>Jim, if it's PSA expertise you are talking about not a hell of a lot with this crowd.

Banner advertising on the board?
 

Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Peter,<br /><br />Thats not true--the person who wants to be paid always talks about all the trimmed cards in psa holders--that is the kind of expertise I would pay big bucks for. Actually I would pay for his expertise if he would take it somewhere else and promise never to return--maybe the Becketts board.<br /><br />Seriously, although I like and respect Jay Miller.....<br /><br />1)Advertising is a no-brainer in my opinion.<br />2)Leon will probably take out a nominal amount--the guy devotes a huge amount of time and effort to this and deserves to make several thousand dollars for what he does.<br /><br />Jim

Banner advertising on the board?
 

Posted By: <b>Cobby33</b><p>I 2nd that emotion.

Banner advertising on the board?
 

Posted By: <b>Robert Lifson</b><p>I have discussed this with Leon and just want to go on the record to say that if I had my choice, I’d much prefer there to be no banner ads on the forum. To me, the board would be a very different place if there were this type of advertising, especially by auction houses who would likely be the most interested advertisers. One of the special qualities of the board in my eyes is that the board is totally independent with reference to advertising. Without advertising, it may be as close to a level playing field for all subjects that are discussed as is possible. Anything that would potentially compromise this independence or even give the appearance of undermining impartiality I would find to be a very undesirable change. If banner advertising is implemented, I’m sure the board would still be great, but I do believe that something special would be lost and I think that should at least be recognized. The old board, in my eyes, would no longer exist, and would be replaced by something that looks very similar, but is commercial, and in this subtle way is very different. There are pluses and minuses to every action. I did make a suggestion to Leon that I thought might have merit: Keep the board free of banner ads but charge companies to have their links on the vintage links page. In this way, a modest charge would add up because there are so many companies, and the site would not change at all (except a few links might come down of companies that don’t find any value in being listed). I don’t believe there is a right or wrong answer to banner ads, and if the board is owned by Leon (which I believe is accurate) then of course it is his to do with as he pleases, but since we have been asked for feedback, I am just providing my personal opinion. I have nothing against free enterprise but also have always had the feeling that the board belonged to everyone and part of its power was that it was not beholden to any special interests. The board has a special place in the collecting community. I’d like to see it protected from anything that might threaten it. Leon, we all appreciate the work you do. Though I don’t feel the same way you do regarding this potential change in direction, I hope that whatever changes are made if any turn out to be very positive.<br /><br />Sincerely,<br /><br />Robert Lifson<br />President<br />Robert Edward Auctions LLC<br />www.RobertEdwardAuctions.com<br /> <br />

Banner advertising on the board?
 

Posted By: <b>Todd Schultz</b><p>I'll stay either way Leon, even though it seems I'm not one who helps form the "knowledge base", whatever BS elitist comment that was, so my voice should be discounted accordingly. Hell, I'm just happy to be here <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

Banner advertising on the board?
 

Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>I did ask for a response and as normal you gave a well thought out, intelligent one. I will take your response into consideration moving forward. BTW, when will you contribute to the knowledge base of the forum? You are truly one of the pioneers still in the hobby and are one of the most knowledgeable people I know. Regardless of which way it goes I am proud to have you as a lurker. Thanks again for your feedback. Talk to you soon.....<br /><br />(Your vote counts as a lurker vote....kind of like the underbidder....underappreciated and much needed <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> ).....<br /><br />

Banner advertising on the board?
 

Posted By: <b>sagard</b><p>I'm a mostly lurker here, but I love the cards. Banner ads are fine. They would help new readers on better venues than Ebay to take the plunge into pre-war cards.<br /><br />One thing that I would find helpful is if the entity placing the ads were asked to contribute to discussions more frequently. ie: Not just when a problem with their reputation comes up. Getting Barry's insight in many threads is fantastic and I have to believe that many of those who would plan on advertising could make the discussions here better as well.<br /><br />Bring on the ads, just please no shady java junk to keep them on the top of the page. <br /><br />Thanks for putting in all the effort here Leon.<br /><br />Soren

Banner advertising on the board?
 

Posted By: <b>Josh K.</b><p>Yeah, Im not one of the chosen few either. Funny thing is, I havent heard one of the "real contributors" identified by Jay state they would leave the board if it had a banner ad. Indeed, Barry stated just the opposite.

Banner advertising on the board?
 

Posted By: <b>DJ</b><p>I basically followed the lead with those who felt it was alright with Leon to profit and a day later, this thread has jumped with much opposition. If you ask one hundred people a question, any question on this Board, you will have some opposition. That's a given. <br /><br />Cobby hit it on the head of late: <br /><br />Seriously. Get real. Most of what I hear from (some of) the self-proclaimed "expert(s)" is a bunch of editorial, off-topic (yet sometimes amusing) drivel and NO "knowledge" about cards.<br /><br />Um, yeah. C'mon Jay. You think people come here for your O/T banter? <br />People glued to their seats in anticipation of your latest message regarding Dorskind! Links to cartoons you found on the Internet! Steroid chit chat! Non-baseball interactive challenges! <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br />The bigger this Forum gets, the more "Sean's" you will get. The more anger from the "Regular viewership" who call out a person's innocent question regarding the Holy Grail by calling them a "Sean". <br /><br />I would rather have a harmless banner then advertisers posting in the Forum to announce an upcoming auction that keeps getting lifted to the top with comments like: "nice cards!", "nice stuff!", "neat items" and such. My mailbox is already loaded with e-mails giving me a countdown to the precise moment when the auction ends. <br /><br />Why should these auction companies use the VBC Forum to get the word out for free, when I'm sure they pay a heavy sum to advertise in a particular Wisconsin rag? <br /><br />Whatever you do Leon, I stand behind you as there is no site like this and I appreciate the babysitting you do and the sites existence.<br /><br />DJ<br /><br />

Banner advertising on the board?
 

Posted By: <b>Mike Pugeda</b><p>Leon,<br /><br />I feel the decision should be ultimately yours after having taken into consideration the opinions offered. It seems as though many are opposed not to you making a profit, but rather a significant profit. Sometimes board members make significant profits on the free BST, right? I'm not sure why the dollar amount should matter. Maybe if the shoe was on the other foot, the responses might be different. <br /><br />I personally pay little or no attention at all to banner ads, I have no interest. But as long as you remain impartial, that is all that matters. From years of lurking, I feel you have been fair and impartial without question.<br /><br />The basis of this board is for the sharing of knowledge and I don't see how an advertiser, regardless of their stature in the hobby, will disrupt this aspect of the board. In other instances, it may be a "slippery slope", but this board can be very vocal and I don't think a paid advertiser is going to curb what someone wants to say.<br /><br />My vote is yes, and let the naysayers find the commercial-free pre-war baseball card utopia they so desire.<br /><br />Mike Pugeda

Banner advertising on the board?
 

Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>DJ, I'll put knowledge up against almost anyone. I was lucky enough to learn from some of the pioneers and leaders in the hobby. Yes, I do post OT stuff, but that's becuase I don't take this all that seriously. I like to have fun, just like anyone else. <br /><br />I like Rob's idea of having companies pay to have their website listed there. That should generate more than enough money, but this also run into the problem of if people see the link there, then they will think that the dealer/auction house is approved by the board.<br /><br />If Leon isn't willing to do this for the love of it as was his original intent, then maybe it's time for him to pass the torch to the next person. Or he can go ahead put up the ads which will forever change what this board is. Or he can maintain the stus quo. No matter he does, I don't think the board will be quite the same afterwards.<br /><br />Jay<br><br>I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

Banner advertising on the board?
 

Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>I agree entirely with Rob Lifson that the board will change in some subtle way with banners but everything in the world is changing so maybe this is just the natural process. As I stated earlier Leon will know in short order whether the changes are working or creating problems, and I am certain he will address them accordingly.

Banner advertising on the board?
 

Posted By: <b>John S</b><p>I would rather not see advertising on the board, but with that said it would most likely not affect my participation. I would rather "pass the hat" annually or bi-annually to establish an account to compensate people who maintain the board, fund dinners/social activities at the National, etc.

Banner advertising on the board?
 

Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>As I have always done I will let this thread go in some sort of moderation. Get your licks in today. It will be locked tomorrow as I don't want to discuss this subject longer than need be to make a final decision. Most likely banner ads will be given a try....For the naysayers only time will tell. I am not sure losing one, or a few of them (naysayers), wouldn't be a net gain. With kind regards ......

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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Especially if you lose the right one(s). Could guarantee you would get more graded card people to post.

Banner advertising on the board?
 

Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Jim- do you really think that the graded card people are unfairly treated on this board? I don't think they have been, and most of the discussions about grading vs. not grading have been intelligent and well balanced. In fact, I think you have actually been as persuasive as anyone because of your well thought out posts.

Banner advertising on the board?
 

Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Barry,<br /><br />Not at all. I think I and others are treated very fairly and I enjoy the comments of you and others. <br /><br />Have had several people tell me they do not want to post here because of one person.<br /><br />Also, if you live in NYC I would like to take you to dinner some night.<br /><br />Jim

Banner advertising on the board?
 

Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Jim- that is a very kind offer, but let's take it off the board. Yes, I live in downtown Brooklyn. Regards, Barry

Banner advertising on the board?
 

Posted By: <b>Josh K.</b><p>"I'll put knowledge up against almost anyone."<br /><br />Jay - I dont think the previous post was questioning your knowledge - it was questioning what you choose to do with it. Personally, I think its a valid point as you tend to stir the pot (which is fine by me) more than you tend to share knowledge or post topics that might allow the rest of us to gain a fraction of that knowledge.

Banner advertising on the board?
 

Posted By: <b>Tom Boblitt</b><p>a point to your comment about links to auction houses opening a can of worms....there's links that have been here for a LLLLOOONNNGGG time to auction houses, grading companies, and other commercial sites. If you mean putting them in a more conspicuous place, I'd agree but they've already been here. I think the way they are listed doesn't really advocate one over the other. Pretty fair and balanced as O'Reilly would say........<br /><br />I would echo Leon's sentiments about Rob and some of the other guys that lurk a little more than post. If there's something you can chime in on, we'd all welcome more of that......<br /><br />Leon....when you wind up taking all those ad dollars and buy a 100 foot yacht, we'll all be expecting to be taken out for a nice cruise.......

Banner advertising on the board?
 

Posted By: <b>Ryan Christoff</b><p>Leon, <br /><br />My only real concern is whether or not having banner ads will change the board. I don't know if it will or not. It's pretty tough to maintain autonomy when there are sponsors and money involved. Still, I'm not opposed to the idea. I have a few questions about how it would work. I apologize if these have already been addressed as I didn't read the entire thread. <br /><br />1. How many advertisers were you envisioning? Obviously, the higher the ad rates are, the fewer advertisers. If they are too inexpensive, everyone will have one and it will render all of them virtually useless as an advertising vehicle. <br /><br />2. How much money were you hoping to generate? I know you mentioned something along the lines of "whatever the market will bear," but this is where it gets tricky. I mean, really if you are looking to get the most possible money, you could do it with one permanent advertiser that pays a huge amount, but then we'd have the MastroNet vintage baseball card board. Or whatever other auction house. <br /><br />I'm sure you've thought of this and was wondering what you're ideas were as far as finding a balance. Also, have you considered temporary banner ads like Old Cardboard has when an auction house wants to advertise for a specific auction that ends on a specific date, instead of a general advertisement about their company?<br /><br />Thanks, <br /><br />-Ryan

Banner advertising on the board?
 

Posted By: <b>chris</b><p>hi,<br /><br />first...thanks for this board and the oppurtunity to share info with other collectors..yes, i do not post much so my opinion may not be as valueable, nonetheless...not sure if this has been mentioned yet, as there over 150 posts...<br /><br />why not just put a paypal donation logo on the b/s/t and general post board and i guarantee you will get plenty to offset all monetary costs and some toward your time...no need to beat around the bush...it is not a bad thing that you are doing this as a strict business move to capture more profit, otherwise i am confident the above idea would offset most costs as mentioned...the only people with a real problem are the ones(not me) that have been on this board for years.<br /><br />i am pretty sure that you had nearly every intention prior to opening this dicussion about following through with the banner ads...not really sure why you posed the question..maybe should have just announced it..some are ok with it, most don't care(me), and some don't want it..i would just hope you would limit to only auction houses..no 3rd pary grading,ebay, etc...<br /><br />that's all..thanks for the read

Banner advertising on the board?
 

Posted By: <b>Doug</b><p>Hello, everybody.<br /><br />My personal (lurker opinion) is this that banner advertising stay off this board.<br /><br />If the problem is: "The board is costing money, and needs some income to survive." We have two solutions.<br /><br />#1. Offer advertising. <br /><br />#2. Ask for donations from the folks who use this board.<br /><br />Solution #1 is a potential can of worms. While not necessarily being a conflict of appearance, it could certainly give the impression of one. And someone mentioned earlier that once Leon is gone (happy retirement, Leon, but not for 40 years or so, ok?), the next person might not be so noble)<br /><br />Solution #2 is a lot more viable. Keep donation numbers private, let members know who much more is needed, and do a Net54 drive every year. <br /><br />Basically, to me, Solution #1 is not necessary, because #2 easily done. Why chance it? <br /><br />Douglas D.<br /><br />Edited to ask the question: Could we do a poll . . . "Would you rather see the board continue with advertising (related to our hobby) or private donations?"<br />

Banner advertising on the board?
 

Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Doug,<br /><br />I think its more than that--you have to pay Leon a meaningful amount of money for his time and efforts.<br /><br />Advertisers are sophisticated enough to know that board posters will speak their mind and they may be criticized from time to time.<br /><br />For the life of me, I cannot see why this is an issue.<br /><br />Jim

Banner advertising on the board?
 

Posted By: <b>Doug</b><p>I have no problem with Leon making some cash for all his time and effort on this board. He earns it.<br /><br />Raises a question . . . could the amount brought in by advertising equal the amount brought in by donations? <br /><br />Second question . . . could this continue each year? <br /><br />Doug

Banner advertising on the board?
 

Posted By: <b>Greg</b><p>Leon,<br /><br />First, thanks for all the hard work you do for this site. <br /><br />I wish I was able to contribute more to this site than I am able to. Unfortunately, since I am pretty new to this hobby and only collect a very specific subject matter, I don't have much to add. Wish I did, but I don't. I've probably posted only a half a dozen times. Wish I had more to add. Hopefully I will in the future. I'm sure there are plenty of others like me on here.<br /><br />That being said, I do enjoy reading the site as well as the contributions of (most) of the members here. It's a very knowledgable group and, for the most part, a very friendly group.<br /><br />Having followed this site for a year or so now, I've come to recognize a lot of great people here. There are a lot who love to share there information. There are a lot who enjoy helping others out. There is also just a lot of fun cameraderie to be enjoyed.<br /><br />I've also come to recognize, however, that there are some individuals on here who seem to take themselves a little too seriously. Worse yet, there are some here with an apparent ego problem that think they are on a higher plateau than others (a true mark of insecurity). Unfortunately, there are times that some even go to the extreme in making or poking fun at others. If others don't agree, I suggest they re-read some of the contributions of late.<br /><br />What does this have to do with the subject? Not much, other than I give you credit for putting up with the bad that goes along with the good. You should be compansated for it. Maybe it's just me letting some steam out reading some of the posts over the past couple of weeks. I guess if others can just say whatever the heck they want, why can't I...<br /><br />Anyway, if my vote means anything, I vote in favor of your Banner advertising. If people don't like it, just don't click on it. What's the big deal?<br /><br />Greg<br /><br /><br />