Jeter and Today's baseball
 

Posted By: <b>Kevin Cummings</b><p>Barry:<br /><br />Now look what you've gone and done - you've given all the Jeter bashers ammunition. Derek Jeter has <b>never</b> thrown out or tagged out two players on one play in a playoff game.<br /><br />Of course, there is a game tonight.....<img src="/images/wink.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br />Kevin

Jeter and Today's baseball
 

Posted By: <b>Al C.risafulli</b><p>Barry:<br /><br />Dale Berra and Bobby Meacham, I believe. One of the low points.<br /><br />-Al

Jeter and Today's baseball
 

Posted By: <b>Jason L</b><p>That was Carlton Fisk of the White Sox that did the tagging, if I am not mistaken...yes?<br /><br />I will like Derek Jeter as soon as he nails two runners at the plate on the same play, provided that he also catches his own throw and does the tagging...only then, will I become a Jeter fan.<br />

Jeter and Today's baseball
 

Posted By: <b>Anonymous</b><p>"Dale Berra and Bobby Meachum," said Randolph between innings on ESPN.

Jeter and Today's baseball
 

Posted By: <b>runscott</b><p>Hey Tom, and one formerly irrational person. I fell on my head a few months ago and haven't been able to have a decent coherent fight since...sad, I know. Even Jay won't yell at me anymore <img src="/images/sad.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br />Barry - Tejada isn't mentioned because he's a 'roid user....didn't you read the Clemens thread?<br /><br />And Leon, I didn't know you liked to play baseball - how does one get into that again at your age? ...or my even older age? I was thinking about getting in an almost-50 league, but wouldn't know how to begin getting warmed up.

Jeter and Today's baseball
 

Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>That's right, he was accused. Soon there won't be anyone left except the skinny guys. It was Fisk who made the two tags, and Berra and Meachum sounds right. Didn't hear Randolph but he was probably playing then and saw it.

Jeter and Today's baseball
 

Posted By: <b>Al C.risafulli</b><p>From NYFans.com:<br /><br />On August 4, 1985, Bobby Meacham was involved in one of the strangest plays in Yankee history when Meacham and Dale Berra were both tagged out at home plate by Carlton Fisk on the same play. <br /><br />It went something like this: Dale Berra was on 1st and Meacham on 2nd, Rickey Henderson blasted a hanging curve into the gap in left center. Meacham, however, was convinced that Chisox centerfielder Luis Salazar would catch the ball, so Meacham stayed put on 2nd so he could tag up and go to 3rd upon Salazar’s miraculous catch. <br /><br />Berra, however, held no such convictions, and he began to run full speed toward the stationary Meacham. Bobby saw Dale running toward him and panicked. He got his feet twisted and fell to the ground. He got up and both men reached 3rd at about the same time, Berra a whisker behind Meacham. <br /><br />Gene Michael, the 3rd base coach, threw his hands up in confusion, but both runners sped toward home. Fisk took the relay throw from Ozzie Guillen (Yes, THAT Ozzie Guillen) and tagged them both—boom. boom. out. out. <br /><br />Yankee manager Billy Martin growled “I’ve never seen a play like that in grammar school, let alone the Major Leagues.”<br /><br />Willie Randolph was indeed the Yankee second baseman in 1985.<br /><br />-Al

Jeter and Today's baseball
 

Posted By: <b>Jason</b><p>Jeter could not hold Ozzie Smith's jockstrap at short. Jeter is media hyped and overrated alot. I would not even say he is in the top 30 best big leaguers today. Ozzie was the best fielding SS in history bar none! There was none even close to him. Whoever says there was is smoking meth. He was not A good hitter but his fielding far surpassed his hitting. Jeter has been lucky enough to be on 4 WS Championship teams and made a few nice plays, but he is not HOF material yet.<br /><br />Jason

Jeter and Today's baseball
 

Posted By: <b>Jay</b><p>Jason--I already told you that Derek Jeter is the second best shortstop in baseball history. How can he not be HOF worthy? Also, my guess is that Jeter would prefer not to hold Ozzie Smith's jock strap which addresses both your statement and some other uninformed statement about Jeter's sexual preferences. BTW, granted that Ozzie Smith was a great fielder and a really neat back flipper but I hardly think that he was that much better than Omar Vizquel with a glove. In fact, Vizquel's lifetime fielding percentage is .984 and Ozzie's is .978 and they both covered alot of ground. Vizquel also outhits Ozzie by 14 points.

Jeter and Today's baseball
 

Posted By: <b>Ricky Y</b><p>Wow its amusing and sometimes scary to see (as a newbie) how these posting morph into different tangents..but I digress...<br /><br />As for original topic on hand...I have gained a lot of admiration and respect for Derek Jeter as years have gone by... setting aside my disdain for Steinbrenner and ignoring the financial advantage the Yankees have over most everyone to acquire and develop players, I marvel at his consistency and the manner in how he conducts himself on the field and the distractions that come with playing in New York. It takes a special player to succeed in New York, you have to embrace the limelight and handle the pressure. When you think of the Yankees in the last 10 years or so...I automatically associate his name at the top of the list. <br /><br />I wouldn't be suprised to see his statue enshrined in center field after his retirement.

Jeter and Today's baseball
 

Posted By: <b>gerard</b><p>JETER is the 21st century Mantle, Ruth, enjoy watching him play!

Jeter and Today's baseball
 

Posted By: <b>warshawlaw</b><p>Let’s look at the real numbers for Smith and Jeter. Career as hitters, Jeter is far better than Smith, bearing in mind that Jeter has had 6,970 at bats in 12 years while Smith had 9,396 at bats in 19 years.<br /><br />YRSHITSBAOBP<br />192460 .262 .337<br />122150.318.388<br /><br />Jeter’s BA is 56 points higher than Smith’s; his on base percentage is 52 points higher. He reaches base far more often than Smith did, so much so that Jeter has already scored 20 more runs than Smith (1,277 vs. 1,257) in 2/3 of the at bats. Jeter is a far better hitter and a far better run scorer than Smith ever was.<br /><br />Does Jeter’s edge in hitting evaporate with Smith’s purported edge in fielding so that Smith emerges as the far superior player? I think not. Their pertinent fielding stats at short through their careers (excluding games they didn’t play SS, Smith played 2511 games, Jeter played 1670 games):<br /><br />NAME G PO A E DP FP lgFP<br />SMITH2511 4249 8375 281 1590 .978 .966<br />JETER1670 2533 4277 175 884 .975 .972<br /><br />1670/2511 = 66.5%. Jeter has played 66.5% of the games Smith played. If we multiply Smith’s raw totals by .665 to equalize the number of games they played we get the following:<br /><br />PO A E DP <br />282655691871057<br /><br />Jeter’s numbers in the same categories:<br /><br />PO A E DP <br />2533 4277 175 884 <br /><br />Bear in mind that assists and double plays are partially dependent on the skills of other players on their teams, including the types of pitchers they are behind. Ozzie played behind a lot of ground ball pitchers, who were successful partially because the Cardinals fielded teams that were superior defensively. Jeter has played behind a lot of strikeout and fly ball pitchers. Jeter has also played with some lead-handed second basemen (Alfonso Soriano comes to mind). <br /><br />Is Smith a better fielder? Absolutely. Is he so much better a fielder that he cancels out Jeter’s superior hitting skills? I could see that argument being made. But was Smith so great a fielder that he overwhelmingly stands head and shoulders above Jeter? No way. Not even close. If anything, I’d say at this point that Jeter and Smith are about equal in value. If Smith is a HOFer, so is Jeter. <br />

Jeter and Today's baseball
 

Posted By: <b>Judge Dred (Fred)</b><p>Wow - what happened in this thread?<br /><br />Pretend we're all in a round room - now everyone find a corner and take a timeout...<br /><br />By the way JETER SUCKS!!! <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> Just kidding. He's without a doubt a fantastic player that has been fortunate to have played on Yankee teams where the ownership feels that they will go to all lengths to win by signing lots of above average (ok, great) players and then going for all the marbles every year. Jeter happens to be one of a supporting cast of really good players. That's not to detract from his accomplishments because he will be the Yankees leader in many different categories by the time he retires (assuming that he plays that long and can endure). <br /><br />I sure wish the management/ownership for my favorite team had the same deep pockets and philosophy (just win baby - ok, plagerised from Al Davis) that the Yankees have.

Jeter and Today's baseball
 

Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>When Jeter is at bat or in the field, take a look at his eyes. He has the burning passion of a winner. He has the body language of a winner. He will always be a winner and he is the greatest shortstop the Yankees ever had. Those who think he is overrated just don't like the Yankees.

Jeter and Today's baseball
 

Posted By: <b>joe brennan</b><p>I can't even comprehend what I am seeing from this board. A thread about modern basball has turned into this garbage? Opinions are fine, and everyone's got one. But attacks and name calling and berating. For what? And to think we banned Sean for being immature. I'll sit back and think about the adults on this board. I think you should stick to opinions about cards. Seems like the only way everyone can remain mature. Joe <br><br>People said it was a million dollar wound. But the government must keep that money, cause I ain't never seen a penny of it.

Jeter and Today's baseball
 

Posted By: <b>Patrick McHugh</b><p>Cal Ripken JR. In 2302 games at shortstop his fielding percentage was.979 - better than Smith or Jeter. A.L. ROY, 2 Time MVP, 2 Time all-star game MVP, Voted to the MLB All century team, this man was the best ss ever.

Jeter and Today's baseball
 

Posted By: <b>Chris Counts</b><p>If you check out just about any modern major league baseball team forum (or football, basketball, etc ...), they all routinely devolve into mudslinging matches. It's amazing how much more personally people take a debate when the honor of their favorite team or player is at stake. Could anybody imagine a debate over t206 backs ever getting this ugly? Or somebody calling a collector a "fag" for prefering a Sweet Caporal to a Polar Bear? Actually, I can't imagine calling anybody a "fag" for any reason, but apparently some people in this world have run out of more intelligent words to use in their vocabularies. By the way, I hate the Yankees more than any team in sports history, but if I was putting together a team, he'd be my first pick. Stats tell only part of the story. Jeter is a stone cold winner. He'll have a plaque on the wall at Yankee Stadium one day, right next to the Babe ...

Jeter and Today's baseball
 

Posted By: <b>Judge Dred (Fred)</b><p>I think the fag comment was a joke. I didn't write it but I don't think it was meant as a personal attack against Jeter or his fans.<br /><br />Barry - you've got that right - Jeter is the greatest shortstop the Yankees have ever had, period. He is a winner, thank goodness he was drafted by the Yankees instead of some lowly team where he'd probably still be good but he'd be suffering... Just out of curiosity do you think Jeter would have made a winner out of the Seattle Mariners? <br /><br />What about them A's???

Jeter and Today's baseball
 

Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>Jay, so youa re telling us that the the greatest defensive players at their position have no business being in the HOF and that the HOF is soley reserved for the greatest hitters and pitchers, regardless how much damage they do to their team defensively? If one dimesional players like Killebrew and Kiner can get into the HOF, then why can't defensive wizards like Ozzie, Maz and Brooks?<br /><br />I thought the HOF was supposed to be for the greatest players, and to me, this means offense and defense.<br /><br />FP is pretty meaningless as I pointed out in the HOF thread, but I'll do it again. Omar has a little over 13k fielding chances in 18 seasons. Ozzie had almost 15k chances in 19 years. Somehow, I don't think Omar is getting to 2k ball next season, thus proving that Ozzie had much better range. This means that Ozzie gets to more balls. Some of these balls he gets to, he gets errors for. These balls are base hits if Omar is playing SS. I'll take Ozzie knocking down a ball and getting an error over Omar not getting to it all and having base hit go through and runners advances a few bases.<br /><br />Ryan, it had everthing to with Leon asking for no OT posts for awhile and this threat got started the next day. I know I start OT threads, but I also respect requests that Leon makes. I'm a supposed trouble maker, so if I can honor simple requests from Leon, I don't see why other supposed good citizens can't do likewise.<br /><br />The number of rings does not make a player great. Or maybe Ernie Banks is just another bum. Winning rings takes a team. There is not a single player that can win a ring by himself, otherwise the Giants would have wona few titles when Bonds was posting monster numbers.<br /><br />No one here is saying Jeter sucks. If they are, then I agree, they are idiots. The point is the he is vastly overrated and overhyped. Would I love to see him on the Twins? Sure, but he wouldn't be the second coming of whomever if he didn't play for the Yankees.<br /><br />Gerard, passing whatever you are smoking.<br /><br />Jay<br><br>I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

Jeter and Today's baseball
 

Posted By: <b>Gilbert Maines</b><p>Now that you mention it, Sweet Caporal does sound a lot less manly than Polar Bear.<br /><br />It is Piedmont backs that T-Rex's new set has, right. That should be ok too.<br /><br />I never thought of the t206 back fag factor before. I don't even know all of the backs, but El Principe de Gales don't sound too straight.

Jeter and Today's baseball
 

Posted By: <b>PC</b><p>Ozzie Smith got to a lot of balls others had no chance at, but he was such a revered fielder in his playing days, that I suspect he did not get charged with errors that lesser fielders would have been charged with.<br /><br />I can hear the official scorers now: "If Ozzie couldn't hold on to it, it must be a hit."<br /><br />

Jeter and Today's baseball
 

Posted By: <b>Anonymous</b><p>"it had everthing to with Leon asking for no OT posts for awhile and this threat got started the next day. I know I start OT threads, but I also respect requests that Leon makes. I'm a supposed trouble maker, so if I can honor simple requests from Leon, I don't see why other supposed good citizens can't do likewise."<br /><br />Never saw the request for no OT posts. Had I seen such a post, I wouldn't have posted.<br />

Jeter and Today's baseball
 

Posted By: <b>Judge Dred (Fred)</b><p>All this talk about fags - in the UK a fag is a cigarette... I guess that kind makes it on topic with T-cards...

Jeter and Today's baseball
 

Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>On the 1st, I believe, I asked for a moratorium on OT posts for 2 days. The recent threads were done after that but not much. My request was to keep it in one thread then I locked the other...thereby pissing Tbob off with my reaction to his statement. My current state of mind makes me think we are better off talking cards...

Jeter and Today's baseball
 

Posted By: <b>Aaron Cowan</b><p>I will gladly say that I despise Jeter and the Yankees. Its a shame that a better fielding SS has to play third to make room for the pretty boy. However, come playoffs he is pretty ridiculous. As far as taking him over Pujols, Manny, Ortiz, or Bonds, I don't think so. Jeter is respected but I can think of many situations that those other players would get an intentional pass whereas Jeter would be pitched too (and probably get a frickin' double or something). <br /><br />Postseason experience is overrated. Who's to say someone won't shine in their first postseason. What about the Marlins a few years ago when the beat Jeter and the Yanks. As far as experience went the Yanks had them whipped but the Marlins came out on top. <br /><br />With that said, if its just about the postseason Jeter is fantastic. But from the beginning to end of a season, give me Pujols, Manny, or Ortiz anyday.<br><br>Aaron Cowan<br />acowan19@gmail.com

Jeter and Today's baseball
 

Posted By: <b>Gilbert Maines</b><p>I have been developing an opinion, Leon, regarding Forum behavior. It may be premature right now, but it seems like the group needs to blow off some steam periodically. It does not matter what the subject is, it seems. We have observed the Sudanese thread, the Hijacked Delete thread, and several other more recent similar diversions.<br /><br />Sticking only to cards might not be the solution. I do not think that a discussion about a star baseball player is inherently risky. However, the horse racing threads have performed well.<br /><br />I don't know.

Jeter and Today's baseball
 

Posted By: <b>Dan Bretta</b><p>With all the "Dan's" posting here I'm glad we all use our last names in our posts.<br /><br />I grew up a Red Sox fan and can not stand the Yankees, but I reserve my hatred for Steinbrenner....I've always found it hard to hate a guy like Derek Jeter. How can anyone hate a guy like that? He's not an a-hole to the fans or the press. He's a great player, maybe not the greatest, but anyone denying his greatness is being irrational.<br /><br />And if the Yankees and their fans want to see A-Rod gone I'm sure the Sox would love to have him.

Jeter and Today's baseball
 

Posted By: <b>runscott</b><p>Hey, why not compare Jeter to HOF shortstops of the past? Heck, just compare him to former YANKEE HOF ss's....Phil Rizzuto...sigh. Now there's a jockstrap Derek could hold up.<br /><br /><br />(Edited to avoid being anonymous)

Jeter and Today's baseball
 

Posted By: <b>Tim James</b><p>All this talk about Yankees and Red Sox reminds me of how my Reds kicked butt in '75 and '76.I saw my first ML game in '75 at the old Riverfront Stadium against the Cardinals.I was glued to the TV in the subsequint WS games.

Jeter and Today's baseball
 

Posted By: <b>Anonymous</b><p>well....<br /><br />...i guess both Mr. Jeter and the red sox certainly have shown us what they are made of this year <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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Posted By: <b>Tim James</b><p>Jeter has the "bring it" going on.I'm actually ruting for the Yanks !!

Jeter and Today's baseball
 

Posted By: <b>Prewarsports</b><p>Amen Joe Brennen! I could not have said it better. In the 8 years I have been a part of this forum since before it was even N54 and was on the FullCount board, I have never seen anything so ridiculous. It reminds me of when the Wentz brothers used to get into it daily with us for no reason. <br /><br />This is a Baseball Card forum that is supposed to be fun and people are being rude and insulting over whether Derek Jeter is overrated or not? I can see getting into it over someone ripping you off or something, but Jeter? What is the point?<br /><br />I used to not understand why Off Topic threads were discouraged but now I know EXACTLY where Leon is coming from. Why not just start one thread a month like the "recent Pickup" threads and title it <br /><br />"OFF TOPIC"<br /><br />That way people who dont want to deal with the name calling and insults can just never click in there and live in ignorant bliss. People who are confrontation and need to blow off some steam or want to be insulting can go in there all day long and the people who only care about cards will never have to see it.<br /><br />Rhys<br /><br />

Jeter and Today's baseball
 

Posted By: <b>steve f</b><p> My apolgies to the Mod, and those board members I had offended with my "shoot from the hip" post, directed to another member. I will think before I 'speak' in all future posts. Thankyou, Steve F

Jeter and Today's baseball
 

Posted By: <b>Anonymous</b><p>I think Mr. Sloate pretty well summed up this thread. <br /><br />

Jeter and Today's baseball
 

Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>I make a motion that discussion of Derek Jeter be banned from this board. He is trouble with a capital "T."

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Agreed. Too many man-crushes going on, Rhys. We need to dial the testosterone down a bit.

Jeter and Today's baseball
 

Posted By: <b>warshawlaw</b><p>"We're not gay. Not that there's anything wrong with that." --Jerry

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>There is nothing wrong with it, but using the word "fag" on a baseball card chat board, even in a supposedly humorous context, is inappropriate. You have to have enough sense to know in advance that not everyone will find it funny.

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Posted By: <b>Ted Zanidakis</b><p>I'm a long-time Yankee fan (I grew up 2 blocks away from Phil Rizzuto in Hillside, NJ).<br />But, like you, (conversely) I have never hated the Red Sox. I was an avid Ted Williams<br />fan as a kid. I saw him hit HR's into the upper RF stands at the Stadium and I was happy<br /> for him. I was fortunate to see him, Joe DiMaggio, Stan Musial and Jackie Robinson play.<br /><br />Obviously, I am now an avid Derek Jeter fan. But, I'm also an avid Nomar Garciaparra fan.<br />Both these guys play the game like the players I remember from my youth. I followed<br />Nomar's career from when he played AA for the Trenton team.<br /><br />Your Red Sox made a big mistake when they did not hold on to Nomar. This season I am<br /> rooting for the Dodgers to win in the NL....so Nomar finally gets to play in the World Series.<br /><br />T-Rex TED <br />

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Posted By: <b>Dan Koteles</b><p>appropriate times is when sense is used. I will not state any<br />opinion of you or your comment. Common sense is not needed on a Jeter board, it just doesnt matter.

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Posted By: <b>Dan Bretta</b><p>I was really disappointed when the Sox traded Nomar....and during the 2004 Series it just seemed "wrong" that they were playing without him. I would love to see the Dodgers get him a ring this year.

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Posted By: <b>Ryan Christoff</b><p>Rhys, <br /><br />It seems like you have the ability to cling to a belief in spite of evidence that it is false, so I'm sure you'll find a way to disagree with me, but...<br /><br />Derek Jeter has 147 hits in 467 postseason at bats. According to my screwy calculator math, that means a .315 batting average. According to your dead accurate anti-Jeter math, he's hitting .306. <br /><br />I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. Why let the numbers get in the way of your belief in a particular statistic, right?<br /><br />Also, Jeter has 2,150 hits in 6,790 career at-bats. Again, I'm not smart enough to use your complex anti-Jeter math formula, so all I can do is divide the number of hits by the number of at-bats. This is why I am left with my obviously inaccurate belief that Jeter has a .317 career batting average. <br /><br />I would think there are many Red Sox fans that would give you the Nobel Prize for Mathematics if you could figure out a way to apply your new formula to winning percentages thus allowing the Red Sox to make the playoffs in spite of having fewer wins and more losses than the Yankees. <br /><br />Care to enlighten us with the magic formula?<br /><br />-Ryan

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Dan- Common sense and courtesy is always called for. Hundreds of people read this board and it's fair to say some of them may be gay, and they certainly could have been offended by it.

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Posted By: <b>Jerry Hrechka</b><p> I was under the impression that a faggot was a bundle of sticks tied together.

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Posted By: <b>Dan Koteles</b><p>thanks Jerry for setting the meaning straight !<br /><br />CHris- Jeter will a have a plaque at Yankee stadium, and a <br />Hollywood Star next to Rock Hudson's.<br /><br />Barry- do you have a 200inch big screen, how can you see his eyes?...body language ,yes a winner....a winner of 180 million<br />dollars.<br /><br />DADADADA, Dat's all folks !

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Dan- I'm done too. How about we call a truce?

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Posted By: <b>Paul Stratton</b><p>A-Rod sure is struggling. No RBI's in his last 10 games or something. He just doesn't look right. <br /><br />How about Zumaya? That guy was throwing some serious smoke. 103 on the radar gun! I was pretty nervous when Leyland brought in Jones to close it out against 3 lefties though.<br /><br />Unfortunately we have "The Gambler" going for us in games 3 tonight. He has been great in the second half but that puss he throws is going to look pretty inviting to the Yanks. Hopefully it's cold and the Unit gets stiff and looks old.

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Posted By: <b>dennis</b><p>if the yanks lose to the tigers i have to believe that arod is gone. he should then be traded to the cubs. even if he stinks,he will have 40,000 "fans" cheering.(hey it's wrigley and summer). there is no chance for him to choke in the playoffs. he could really have gaudy stats because none of the games would be played under any pressure.