Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>But if steroids is the simple answer, then why haven't the careers of Canseco, Camaniti and others been extended and gotten better with age? What would we be saying about Nolan Ryan if he played today rather than 20 years earlier? No pitcher, except maybe Warren Spahn put up numbers like Ryan did late in his career and now we are seeing Clemens put up similar, if not better numbers. Are Clemens and Bonds genetic freaks like Ryan, or do you write them off as products of the steroids age....or both? Personally, I think it's both.<br /><br />Jay<br><br>I've just reached Upper Lower Class. I am now officially a babe magnet for poor chicks.

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>Paul</b><p>Jay, yes Bonds is a genetic freak, so add steroids to the mix & its magnified. Canseco, Caminiti, & most other hitters didn't have his talent. Also, it depends on what type of injuries they are dealing with.

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Jay, not every person has the same reaction to roids. Also, injuries cut careers short that are influenced by steroids due to the increased tension muscle mass places on sockets, bones, etc. Read the excerpt in SI, I did. After reading it, it is clear as a bell that Bonds was a juicer - and a nasty human being as well. I'll applaud when the IRS, US Attorney's office and Congress call him on the carpet and he gets his due.

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>Cy</b><p>Can I bring up one point. Bonds is now being labeled a cheater. My question is this, was it against the rules of baseball to take steroids when Bonds hit 73? (I don't know the answer to this.) <br /><br />Whether or not it was against the law has no bearing on the baseball records. MANY baseball players did things against the law. Will sombody tell me even if he was juiced, was he breaking the rules of baseball. And when did the rules of baseball outlaw steroids?<br /><br />Thanks.<br /><br />Cy

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>peter ullman</b><p>so roger says he's calling it quits after the wbc. any coincidencethis parallels the new BB story?<br /><br />pete in mn

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>john kal</b><p> Help me out, people. I believe that Major League about a decade or so ago issued a statement to the effect that if a player did something against the laws of the United States (eg. performance enhancing drugs without a precsription)it was also against the laws of baseball. This is to Cy's point. But Cy can't see the difference between Bonds taking a cornucopia of drugs to turn himself into the Frankenstein monster and, say, Leo Durocher stealing signs or Preacher Roe throwing the spitter or having players think he did. On another point: I believe HGH can improve eyesight. One more: I believe that greenies do not boost performance because they raise the standing heartrate which is the last thing you'd want in a workout. You might feel more alert for a time but then you crash. Plus the dangers to the central nervous system. (The football player who died using ephedra would be an example)

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>Judge Dred (Fred)</b><p>Peter,<br /><br />Roger must read this this board and now he's scared straight... he figures that if people on this board figured him out, then he's done...

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>There is enough speculation going here, let's not speculate about what HGH can do unless you have somke rock solid facts. You may as wel speculate that HGH causes humans to once again start growing a tail.<br /><br />Jay<br><br>I've just reached Upper Lower Class. I am now officially a babe magnet for poor chicks.

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>Rob</b><p>Literally, Tom Hicks won the 1904 Olympic marathon using styrchnine. Regarding the reason why no one will ever provide the details of Florence Griffith drug use: it would call into question the performances of her brother Al Joyner and Jackie Joyner Kersee. Likewise, clean players aren't going to whistle blow on the juicers is because it's going to hurt the game and attendance, consequently the ability to pay their salaries. <br /><br />Pete Rose's well known use of amphetamines enhanced his performance, the grind of a 162 game schedule, cross country travel and the shift changes between day and night work make that necessary. Pete Rose wouldn't have had many 200 hit seasons and likely had fewer career hits than Tris Speaker without amphetamines. Baseball players before 1958 had an advantage which I've never seen discussed: they played primarily day games as well as having little travel across time zones. <br /><br />The guy to profit the most from illegal steroid use was Arnold Schwarznegger in the 1970's. If he was getting some 2nd and 3rd places in body building competitions as a clean competitor, he would had got some the recognition to start a movie career, but definitely not the blockbuster movie scripts to become a megastar nor the platform to become governor. Schwarznegger's acting ability is 2nd rate compared to Sean Connery, who was a 2nd rate body builder (undoubtly a clean competitor, a non competitor now if you pitted his 1950's body against bodybulders today).<br /> <br />Schwarznegger has a tight control on his media image, as well as being a Republican. None of those conservative types who cry about the poor example drugged athletes set for the kids will ever admit the ultimate hero for illegal drug use is Arnold Schwarznegger. <br /><br />Those who warn about the dangers of drug use should accept the fact that the rewards vastly outweigh the risks.<br /><br />

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>Cobby33</b><p>Why is Bonds a "nasty human being," among the other unflattering adjectives that have been used? What has Bonds done to anybody on this Board? Admittedly, he may not be a "media darling" like Clemens (who intentionally and with premeditation, puts people's lives at risk when he throws AT them), but what does not being Mr. Nice Guy 100% of the time have to do with his character? When was the last time any of these critics went to a Giants game? I happen to go to about 40 a year and Bonds is ALWAYS gracious to the fans, smiles, is nice to kids and participates in a variety of charities.<br /><br />Again, I realize he's no Joe Montana or whomever, but I would reserve judgment if and until he objectively does something "nasty" to you or someone you know.

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>Judge Dred (Fred)</b><p>Bonds is probably like Jekyll and Hyde. He can probably be a nice person but enough people have witnessed his nasty side. I've gone to a lot of ball games in my life. The Padres opened Petco Park two seasons ago. I went to several games in the opening year. I typically show up early because I like to watch batting practice. Before a Giants/Padres game Bonds was entering the stadium grounds and there was ONE person trying to get HIS autograph that day, ONE person. The person was a young man in the Navy. Bonds was walking towards the players entrance and then pulled out his cell phone. The young man told Barry that he was from San Francisco and that he wanted to get his autograph. Bonds' reply was "F_ <u> </u> off, can't you see I'm on my phone". No, this isn't being made up, this is true. Maybe he was having a bad day, maybe he was just being Barry. Bonds creates his own reality. Perhaps he'd be more likeable if he wasn't such a horses ass.

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>Cobby33</b><p>Point taken. <br />As I said, Bonds is no saint, but neither are any professional athletes. I've had positive experiences with them and negative. I certainly wouldn't try and strike up a conversation with someone who is on the phone, however.

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>Anson</b><p>There are a few "saints" that are/were professional athletes. These guys are the ones that have never had an ounce of dirt or bad press come their way. It's not impossible to be a courteous human being. Guys like Cal Ripken, Tony Gwynn, Bob Feller, Brooks Robinson, etc.. are rarely listed in the bad experience files.<br /><br />With that being said, this trend seems to be diminishing. There are less and less class acts coming into professional sports. I realize that the media feeds on this stuff more than they used to, as well. But, the attitudes have changed with the paychecks. Somehow, I think these guys have forgotten what got them the big $$$ in the first place.<br /><br />

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>Cobby33</b><p>True.

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>John Kal</b><p> On Mar 1 '91 Anabolic Steroids without a script were banned by the Federal Gov't. On Jun 8 '91 MLB issued an edict forbidding their use under strict penalty (to include being banned from MLB). The fact that the Union wouldn't go for testing does not mean that users after this time were not in violation of the rules of MLB. On this basis I believe Bonds should be exiled from MLB based on the edict of Jun 8. Also, if Bonds never failed a test it was only because he could afford the designer drugs for which there was no test. Is Bonds the only one? No. But that does not excuse him or Sosa or McGuire, etc. as the evidence shows.

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>Rob L</b><p>Since steroids were illegal in the United States without a prescription since at least 1991, they are illegal anywhere. Baseball is not immune to the law. Just because murder is not listed as illegal by Baseball doesn't mean that a player can do it!<br /><br />

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>Cobby33</b><p>This is now getting just plain silly.

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>John Kal</b><p> Cobby, how is what I or Rob L said in our last posts silly?

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>Cobby33</b><p>John: Forgive me for being flippant, but aren't we getting a little carried away?<br /><br />Trying to compare the use of substances which may or may not be banned by a particular jurisdiction or MLB with those who commit murder is ludicrious<br /><br />Tracking down people who use "illegal" or "banned" substances other than the obvious hard-core drugs which are definitely frowned upon, has never and will never be a priority to any law enforcement division. This is not much different than saying that ballplayers who travel over the speed limit should be apprehended and arrested. Sure, it's illegal conduct, but is it akin to murder? I don't think so.<br /><br />Let's let law enforcement and the MLB determine if and how they wish to punish any "offenders" and let's reserve judgment until they do. I'm not holding my breath.

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>Rob L</b><p>Obviously, my comments are meant to be sarcastic in nature. Baseball has chosen to look past this problem until only recently. As far as any of the records that have been set by Bonds, they have to stand. Baseball has decided to look past this issue in the past and will likely gloss over it this time. This just represents another era of baseball: deadball era, liveball era, steroid era, etc. etc..

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>DJ</b><p>This is silly: Why is Bonds a "nasty human being," among the other unflattering adjectives that have been used? What has Bonds done to anybody on this Board? <br /><br />Sure he hasn't done anything to this board...safe to say Bonds probably doesn't care about this Board, but has anyone ever heard anything flattering about the guy? <br /><br />I have had the displeasure of meeting him three times and there's this uncomfortable feeling being around him and he was a complete jerk on every occasion. It's like you simply expect something bad to happen...like someone coughing and him causing an explosian of some sorts. He rules the world. He is in charge of everything it seems. <br /><br />Even in the new book (more arguments here), the authors say that Bonds treated basically everyone like crap and bossed everyone around with explatives...or else threatened them. His Giants teammates cannot even talk to him and does anyone remember his short lived relationship with Gary Sheffield who told a tale of where Sheffield wanted to do something nice for Bonds in surprising him with free tickets to an event, but Bonds treated Sheffield like "junk" and ruined his surprise and Bonds purchased better tickets to the same event? Sheffield had nothing nice to say about him and he was a shortlived friend and Shef is down to earth and dispite front office problems, is actually a rather nice guy. <br /><br />Bonds reportedly threatened his girlfriend after she arrived late for a rendezvous by saying, "If you ever (expletive) pull some (expletive) like that again I'll kill you, do you understand me?"--this according to the new book. <br /><br />Seven deadly sins (and how not to be a public figure):<br /><br />Pride? He has that in abundance. What else could move someone to claim he doesn't use steroids because, "I'm a good enough ballplayer as it is. I don't need to be any better. I can't get any better at this age."<br />Envy? If a new book alleging rampant use of performance enhancing drugs is accurate, envy is what precipitated this whole thing — he hated seeing Mark McGwire get all the attention.<br />Lust? Naturally. The book tells of extramarital activity and mistresses on the road.<br />Anger? Just try asking him about steroids. You can also read how he treated his trainer and others with contempt and sometimes rage.<br />Greed? There's that, too — greed for glory, greed for records.<br />Sloth? You couldn't say he's lazy. Still, he reportedly preferred human growth hormones because they allowed him to keep his physique without the drudgery of long workouts.<br /><br />DJ

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>Tim James</b><p>The first part of this response reminds me of what was said about Ty Cobb.This issue is unsettling to me,but the guy has done alot for baseball.How many of you guys are willing to discount what Pete Rose has done under accusations that I think are simmilar?Does this "taint" our icons of the game?Cobb's bad behaivior had no effect on his place in history.I know where the discussion would go from here,these guys didn't do what Bonds has"alledgidly" done,but where do you draw the line?Does he deserve a place in the HOF?

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>Chris Counts</b><p>It is not my intention to burst the bubble of this board’s Bonds-Haters, who like Bonds-Haters everywhere, seem to clearly be enjoying the latest revelations about Barry’s chemically-induced fitness regimen. No doubt many have waited a long time for this magical moment to dog pile on Barry, and I can’t say he deserves a whole lot less.<br />But I can’t help but think that by bashing Barry, baseball fans are missing what I believe is much bigger problem. In my estimation, baseball has a big credibility problem over steroids and Barry is only a symptom of that problem.<br />This isn’t the first time baseball has had credibility issues, but the current crisis is arguably the game’s biggest public relations nightmare since the Black Sox threw the 1919 World Series. And given the game’s high level of popularity right, there is more at stake than ever before.<br />So how did baseball’s powers-that-be deal with the gambling crisis of 1919? They hired Judge Kenesaw Mountain Landis to clean up the game. I honestly don’t believe Charlie Comiskey and his fellow owners had any real intention of cleaning up the game, but whether they liked it or not, Landis cleaned up the game with an iron fist.<br />Now Landis was far from perfect. In fact, the game probably would have integrated earlier if not for the commissioner’s personal prejudices. But he was a strong, seemingly independent leader, and more than anything that is what baseball needs today.<br />It’s time to close the door on the Bud Selig era. The much-maligned present commissioner has been at his job far too long (14 years at last count). Besides his complete failure to deal with the issue of illegal drugs in baseball, Selig has taken many positions that have adversely affected baseball’s integrity, from being the owners’ puppet on labors matters and advocating advertising on uniforms to the Twinsgate scandal where he tried to contract a team whose owner Carl Polhad had loaned him a large sum of money.<br />There is little doubt steroids have been around for decades, just as amphetamines were in preceding decades (and yes, amphetamines — from greenies in the 60s to cocaine in the 80s — are performance-enhancing drugs. If you don't believe me, look at Lonnie Smith's stats in 1982). And there is little doubt that baseball’s present leaders have been aware of the game’s drug issues for decades. But the owners, addicted to record profits they attribute to the past decade’s chemically-induced home run frenzy, are too busy counting their cash.<br />The cynical will say money will always trump idealism and the nature of power will always corrupt. But I believe baseball — which is becoming more of an international sport with each passing day — has yet to see its greatest era. But for that to happen, strong, independent leadership is neccessary, and that will never come from Bud Selig

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>Mark</b><p>Furthermore, it's utterly ridiculous to compare Bonds' personality/behavior to that of Cobb's. <br /><br />Cobb was a stauch racist who once beat up a black groundskeeper who tried to shake his hand. Then when the groundskeeper's wife came to her husband's rescue Cobb tried to choke her and his teammates had to pull him off of her. <br /><br />Cobb also savagely beat a white handicapped fan who called him a "half-n word." <br /><br />Cobb also slapped a black elevator operator for being "uppity." When a black night watchman intervened Cobb pulled out a knife and stabbed him.<br /><br />Seeing is though Cobb is one of the two or three most coveted players on this board, maybe you should but Bonds just a little slack.

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>Tim James</b><p>I was just commenting on DJ's words.I admit that I was trying to spurn debate.Cobb had those same "relations" with his teammates.There are differences between Bond,Cobb,and Rose,but in a historical sence,what is done on the field is what will be on record.Even though PR is banned,his records still stand,and can't be "banned" from the record books.

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>Anson</b><p>Cobb was a complete and giant ass. But, I don't think it unfairly changed his ability as a player. <br /><br />Needless to say, neither Bonds nor Cobb would have made my Christmas card list.

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>Mark</b><p>Granted Cobb did not enhance his performance through banned substances, but Bonds was detested based on his personality long before it was known that anyone in MLB had taken steroids. Even in this thread, his personality is challenged, labeling him a "complete jerk" and other attacks on his personality. My point is that, however arrogant and gruff Bonds is, it's even more impolite to stab someone, savagely beat a cripple or choke someone's wife. And none of that stops admiration for Cobb on this forum which to me seems slightly naive and/or hypocritical.

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>Don't kid yourself into think Cobb didn't cheat in some form. He sharpened his spikes, and lord knows what else in order to give himself an advantage over others. Give his demonor, doing whatever he could get away with is not out of the possibility. I just refuse to believe that the game has ever been "pure" and there has always been cheating of one type or another going on since the first game was played. I also find it laughable that anyone could possible think there was ever time in the game where the game was pure and there was no cheating of any type going on.<br /><br />The thing I find most humorous about the whole steroid thing is that the people most outraged about are the same people that think the HR is the greatest thing since sliced bread. I hate the HR and I am the one that should be most outraged about the whole thing, but I realized long ago that people whill do whatever it takes to stay on the team and make as much money as possible. HRs is the easiest way to this. I'd love to see the deadball era come back, but I will settle for the new ballparks, crazy angles of the outfield walls and an increase in triples.<br /><br />Jay- wishes someone would build a park with 610' wall like the old Detroit stadium around the turn of the century.<br><br>I've just reached Upper Lower Class. I am now officially a babe magnet for poor chicks.

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Jay, somehow I'm not sure that sharpened spikes had quite the same impact on statisitcs as does steroids....Also, I'm not sure that Cobb actually denied doing this.

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>Jason</b><p>Maris hit 61 in 1961. So we must assume he roided up that one summer. Maybe that was the real reason his hair fell out. Apparantly he stopped using them after that summer.<br /><br />Jason

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Actually, Roger Connor was the first reported juicer; until Babe passed him in 1921, the HR mark was shrouded in infamy. I heard he had 3 girlfriends on the side (gave one of them $10 in cash to buy a horse - he had gotten the cash for signing for a whole week at autograph shows and never reported the income), was insanely jealous of Cap Anson, and insisted that none of his teammates talk to him in the dugout.

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>Judge Dred (Fred)</b><p><br />Connor took a while to get those HRs. Williamson had that one season where his HR number was astronomical for the 19th century. For that matter four members of the 1884 Chicago White Stockings had unbaseball like HR totals that year. Do you think.....?

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>Mike</b><p>Interesting item:<br /><a href="http://www.americanmemorabilia.com/Auction_Item.asp?Auction_ID=25746" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.americanmemorabilia.com/Auction_Item.asp?Auction_ID=25746</a>

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>Brian</b><p>Park Name: Lake Front Park (II) <br />Team: Chicago Cubs (NL 1883-84) Opening Day: May 5, 1883 <br />Capacity: 10,000 Dimensions: LF 186 CF 300 RF 196 <br />Closing Day: October 11, 1884 <br /> <br /><br /><br />Lake Front Park II had the shortest outfield fences in the majors, ever. In fact, a ball hit over the left field wall in 1883 was considered a double. In 1883, the Cubs hit 13 homers, while in 1884, when a ball hit over the left field wall was a home run, they hit 142. This park, home of Albert Spalding's team, was considered the finest in the majors. In 1883, Spalding invested $1,800 into renovating the field. The grandstand was enlarged to seat 2,000 and the bleachers to seat 6,000 with room for an additional 2,000 standing room people. There was a ornamented pagoda near the main entrance to hold the First Cavalry Band. On the third base side, there were 18 luxury "sky"-boxes, equipped with armchairs and curtains. Spalding had one with a phone and a gong so he could conduct his business. After the 1884 season, the Cubs were forced to leave Lake Front Park II for legal reasons. The land that the park was situated on was given to Chicago by the Federal Government for non-commercial uses. Plus, after the 1884 season, the National League set the minimum distances for the outfield fences at 210 feet. <br /><br /><img src="http://projectballpark.org/history/na/pics/lake.jpg">

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>Judge Dred (Fred)</b><p>Brian,<br /><br />It was more fun thinking that the team was juiced. Yes, that is the reason that Williamson cards are at a premium and four players on that team hit over 20 HRs in a season back in a time when 20 was just an astounding number. Williamson's record of 27 held until Ruth hit 29 in 1919. What about the Babe, do you think??? I think he was juiced with beer... he looks like he could have pounded down a few sixers really easy...

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>Anonymous</b><p>--

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>Anson</b><p>I can't imagine what would happen if the two ever got to meet each other.

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>Tim James</b><p>Wasn't cocaine legal then? No telling how many players,even in the early 1900's abused the drug.

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>davidcycleback</b><p><img src="http://espn.go.com/i/eticket/20051109/i/memosPOP_1991_1.jpg"><br /><img src="http://espn.go.com/i/eticket/20051109/i/memosPOP_1991_2.jpg">

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>There has been a misinterpretation regarding what the authors claimed Bonds said in his grand jury testimony, that Bonds said he used steroids but didn't know they were steroids. What he said, it has been cited in many other sources, was that he used a clear substance and a cream, given to him by his trainer, Greg Anderson, who told him they were a flaxseed oil and a balm. The misinterpretation is that he said he used the Clear and the Cream, which are steroid substances.<br /><br />It's interesting that this fact has been out there since these guy leaked the grand jury tesimony in their SF Chronicle article, yet they continue present their interpretation of what Bonds said, and not what Bonds actually said.<br /><br />Jay<br /><br><br>I've just reached Upper Lower Class. I am now officially a babe magnet for poor chicks.

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>David</b><p>Once again, I find myself here.....as I am sure the important ones of you will too...<br />When I was first introduced to this forum, by awkward means, I was truly happy, and prided with joy....<br />For once, I thought, here is a place I can talk true baseball. A place where men still shag fly balls during late August, and a place where, "The Natural" is not just another movie. I am, The Batboy. That's what I will call myself from now on. I tell you this, because I a have been with the players......I have seen their eyes........I know, when not to ask for an autograph, and know the struggle within the player when the wrong person request one at the wrong time. I am pleased to be here, and hope you respect me as I do you, for being a knowledgeable, sentimental guidance towards discovery of this beautiful pasttime we call, "Baseball." <br />I am an idealist, no doubt. I want US all to get along. And that is why I write to you now:<br />Barry, wow....it's going to take a lot more than 116 entries from all of us to get to the bottom of this. Quite unfortunate actually, baseball really needs a hero now. However, I will state, it's not as simple as just saying the guy is a loning cheat, malice machine. We must remember his up- bring.....Mays, McCovey, always in the spot light....even as a kid, with a father, that could play damn good ball. I include for you...my days with Papa Rip and Kirby......may they rest in true "Field Of Dreams." <br />Smell your glove again gentlemen, the answer is there... -The Bat Boy<br /><img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1142072932.JPG">

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>David</b><p>I guess my point is, you all make great points. Have a great Saturday!

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>Jason</b><p>Are you the same batboy from "The Natural?"

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>Anson</b><p>Yeah, and what's with the team switching?<br /><br />I'm sure it's been pointed out but does anyone honestly think that Bonds believed he was rubbing flax seed oil or balm on himself? I don't doubt that he may have said that. But, I'm buying that about as much as I'm buying a Beatles Reunion ticket.

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>No one is saying that Bonds actually took flaxseed oil, etc, but contrary to popular belief, he did not admit to using any sort of steroids in his grand jury testimony. This what the authors and other anti-Bonds people would like everyone to believe, but it is far from the truth.<br /><br />Jay<br /><br />I've just reached Upper Lower Class. I am now officially a babe magnet for poor chicks.

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>Tim James</b><p>I am willing to overlook the issue at hand,the guy has done alot for baseball.We will never know what has gone on behind the scenes in years gone by,but what he has done will be on the record books regardless of the accusations.

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>davidcycleback</b><p>Other than the fact that if pros are required to use dangerous drugs to play, then 16 and 17 year olds will be required to use dangerous drugs to play in college and the minors (which in an of itself is reason to ban steroids in the bigs)-- the main problem I have against steroids is that I watch sports to watch humans compete as humans. I don't watch sports to watch robots or aliens or labratory mutants compete. The idea of watching a game where 30% of the performance and 75 feet of the home run and 25 percent of the muscle is due to human or bovine grown hormone or labratory injects doesn't appeal to me. This may appeal to the Fox Sports and video game generation, but it doesn't appeal to me. <br /><br />I enjoy watching the occasional cartoon, science fiction show and playing a video game, but I watch or play knowing that it is fake and it is supposed to be fake. I don't watch sports for it to be fake, and, to me, players on steroids are fake and their achievements are fake.

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>DJ</b><p>Didn't Adam J. have the record for longest thread? As things unfold, and Leon doesn't get sick of this being bounced to the top, this may reach the two hundred thread mark in the upcoming weeks.<br /><br />There's no secret how anti-Bonds I am and in saying that, my favorite baseball player of all-time was Ty Cobb. Racist? Not exactly as Jack Johnson is a very close second. <br /><br />If Ty Cobb was alive today, the world would hate him. I would hate him. He was a ten on the "a-hole" scale while the closest thing I can find to Cobb today is John Rocker who may be a two. <br /><br />Ty Cobb grew up in a different time where racism and his general anger issues were tolerated. Very sad to say. This was the case for forty years after the fact and Jackie Robinson was well aware of the hatrid that was thrown in his direction. How much would the sports world hate the 1894 Orioles? Buncha a-holes. <br /><br />If Cobb beat up a paralyzed fella today, he would be thrown in jail, get sued, lose all his endorsements, the team would let him go (he'd be T.O),Selig would ban him for some time, fine him, it would be all over the news, picketers, on the web and more. Olbermann would make him the "worst person of the day". Bill O'Reilly would always be the "worsest". <br /><br />Do you know that I wished someone a "Merry Christmas" this winter and got a nasty reply to the fact that I should wish everyone "Happy Holidays" because I might offend a particular way a person celebrates the holiday? It's a different time. <br /><br />Plus, you can't compare sharpened spikes or even cocaine to steroids. Neither of these helped an athlete on the field the way steroids do. <br /><br />DJ

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>The current record holder of longest thread is the "soak and trim" thread that exceeded 200 posts.<br /><br />Jay<br><br>I've just reached Upper Lower Class. I am now officially a babe magnet for poor chicks.

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>Jason</b><p>Kids will be using steroids to cheat in sports because they have to find a way. They are too lazy to work hard for it and too impatient to put in the time. Our society has made it that way. The level of baseball is nausiating nowadays. The level of high school and college kids really sucks to even when I played 10 years ago at that level. The pros are a joke and about 60% of the Major Leaguers would be good college players in my time. The whole sport has suffered and the players just keep getting worse. Makes me think I should make a comeback in my early 30s.<br /><br />Jason

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>Just read a great quote, "if you are outraged that a player enhances his performance by using steroids, then why aren't you outraged by a pitcher who has Tommy John surgery and comes back throwing harder than ever? Or how about lasik to improve your eyesight?"<br /><br />Jay<br><br>I've just reached Upper Lower Class. I am now officially a babe magnet for poor chicks.

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>Tom Boblitt</b><p>you can't go to prison for elective surgery. You can, and should, for illegal steroid use. Apples and oranges.........

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>Brian</b><p>Did anyone catch Saturday Night Live?

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>Al Crisafulli</b><p>I read all Barry Bonds threads on the collecting boards with great interest. I've got to say that I agree with Jay on this.<br /><br />Here's what it comes down to, as far as I'm concerned. Baseball is truly a unique sport in that the history of the game is SO important, and SO revered. Fans of any other sport have absolultely no problem acknowledging the fact that athletes today are more talented than athletes of yesteryear. Who's the best basketball player ever? Michael Jordan. The best hockey player? Wayne Gretzky. The best golfer? Tiger Woods. Ask that question of virtually any sport, and the answer will be someone who has played in the last 20 years. People have no problem acknowledging that any number of factors have contributed to the modern athlete being more talented and better equipped than the athlete of 50-100 years ago.<br /><br />But not baseball. For some reason, baseball fans have always had trouble accepting the fact that a modern player - be it Willie Mays, Tom Seaver, Mike Schmidt, Johnny Bench, or Barry Bonds, as we trace the history of the game from the 50s onward - might be the equal of Babe Ruth or Ty Cobb or Christy Mathewson.<br /><br />In baseball, people just pine for the "good old days" for some reason, and it's been happening for as long as baseball has been around.<br /><br />The fact is that the more I learn about the history of the game, the more I realize that the game really hasn't changed all that much over the years (admission of people of color and adoption of the DH rule notwithstanding). Players have cheated, gambled, held out for more money, jumped teams, charged the mound, and thrown at each other forever.<br /><br />Today's player has chemical options that players in the past did not have. I'm convinced, however, that if steroids were available in 1930, players would have taken them. And as far as Bonds is concerned, despite the fact that his steroid use is obvious, he's no bigger or stronger than many of the players he's competing against. And yet his numbers are SO much better - he's SO much more dominant - that it's ridiculous. Very few players have eclipsed their peers to the degree that Bonds has over the last 5-6 years, and very few players were as good as he has been over the course of his career.<br /><br />When Buck Showalter - an astute manager - intentionally walks Bonds with the bases loaded, you know the guy has some skills.<br /><br />So, for me, the bottom line is this: he may be a complete jerk, but thankfully I don't have to invite him to dinner - I just have to watch him play ball. And compared with other players of his era, Bonds is the best. Steroids or not, there's nobody even close. He is SO much better than virtually anyone else on the field, that it's almost unfair. And for that reason, I still consider Barry Bonds to be one of the top 3 or 4 players ever to set foot on a baseball diamond. <br /><br />And I think history will agree with me.<br /><br />-Al

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>Anonymous</b><p>Al: your last sentence, I think, summarizes the problem with Barry ... but for the alleged (yeah, right) steroid use, he would not be considered one of the top 3 or 4. Most people have serious problems with that.<br /><br />Think about it ... absent artificial means, does he hit 70+ homers a year, and stay healthy long enough to approach Ruth and Aaron? And if he were not approaching Ruth and Aaron, would people consider him as the top 3 among Ruth, Aaron, Mays, DiMaggio, Cobb, Williams, Gehrig, Mantle, Wagner, etc. etc.? Doubtful.<br /><br />Did Hank Aaron cheat? Did the Babe? How about Williams? The Mick? Cobb was ferocious, but did he cheat? More than that, did they do anything illegal to enhance their performance? Compare Bonds all you want to the current crop (many of whom may have also cheated), but to mention Bonds in the same breath with Hank Aaron, Babe Ruth, Willie Mays and Mickey Mantle, etc., only diminishes their achievements. Most are not around to give their opinion, but I think Hank and Willie would agree with that. <br /><br />History will not be favorable to Bonds (or McGwire or Palmiero), in fact, it will only get worse for them. Much worse.

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>Al Crisafulli</b><p>Good points all, but I forgot to mention one thing about baseball that has probably seen the biggest change of all: the media.<br /><br />In 1960, or 1930, or 1890, there were no 24-7 sports radio & TV stations. There were no 200 channels of cable, following around athletes and trying to dig up dirt on them. Journalists respected a player's right to privacy, and didn't disclose their personal shortcomings.<br /><br />So to answer your question about whether Mickey or Aaron or Williams cheated - I don't know. We like to put guys like that on a pedestal, and think they were above reproach in every way, but the bottom line is that we just don't know.<br /><br />Here's what I <i>do</i> know: if a CURRENT player never hit more than 39 home runs in his career, and then all of a sudden one year he hit 61, people would speculate. If he had a reputation for being surly, the media didn't treat him well, and (as previously noted) it was well-reported that his hair was falling out in clumps, and then his career abruptly tailed off due to injuries? People would look at that player as an unquestionable user of steroids.<br /><br />-Al

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>Anson</b><p>Bonds has always been a hall of fame talent. However, his "top 3 or 4" of all-time status didn't develop until the alleged steroid use. Take at look at his numbers and watch the sudden jump. Again, I remind you that he is the ONLY ATHLETE in ANY SPORT to ever get significantly better after his 36th birthday. Mr. Bonds is not a fine bottle of wine.

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>davidcycleback</b><p>I agree with that point. Before he started taking steroids (yes, I'm jumping to the conclusion that he took steroids), Bonds was considered a Hall of Fame quality player-- not as as good as, say, Willie Mays, but a great 5-tool player. Most considered Ken Griffy Jr. to be the superior talent and, by the way, home run hitter. It wasn't until after Bonds started taking steroids that sports writers and fans started calling him the best or one of the best ever. No one who today calls Bonds the best ever considered him the best ever before he took steroids.

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>An exception does not prove a rule. Someone has to be first. And in sports, all it takes is that first and then, all of the sudden, others are able to do it. <br /><br />As to the legal/illegal enhancement argument: why is it ok for someone to physically enhance themselves thru surgery, yet not ok to do it with steroids. Forget the legal/illegal aspect, why is it ok? If a player could have biggerr, stronger muscles implanted to make himself look and perform like Bonds, would this be ok solely because it is legal?<br /><br />Jay<br /><br />I've just reached Upper Lower Class. I am now officially a babe magnet for poor chicks.

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>Anson</b><p>Correct me if I'm wrong, but Lasik surgery is done to correct eyes, not enhance them. Also, I'm not sure anyone has gone through Tommy John surgery to "enhance" their pitching arm. Usually they're repairing it because it was blown out. While a few might come back and throw better than they had previously, a lot never return to form. Theoretically, the ones that succeed may do so due to a solid rehab and development training program.<br /><br />I call BS on the "someone has to be the first" thing. .812 slugging percentage at Age 40, I'm not buying it.

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>davidcycleback</b><p>Jay, I don't think players should take steroids. I also do not think players should have implanted muscles, I don't think pitchers should use the spit ball, I think it's unfair for park owners to alters the fences or wind machine to favor their players or I'm against players cheating at cards in the clubhouse.<br /><br />And, while you might consider this hyppocratical, I think it's okay for a baseball player to wear contacts or take an allowable antihistamine if he has bad hayfever. <br /><br />Is it true that there is better surgery techniques (Tommy John, achilles tendon, etc) today than in Babe Ruth's day? Yes, and that is a reasonable histroical point to bring up about today's players having certain advantages. Does acknowlinging this mean one should be for the use of steroids or against a player going to John Hopkins after he tore up his knee? I don't see that.<br /><br />If your point is that nothing is or ever has been completely fair and players and managers cheated in 1920, I agree. If your point is nothing is or ever has been completey fair and players and magagers cheated in 1920 thus I should be for the use of steroids, you'll have to explain that argument to me.<br /><br />My dad told me when I was a kid that life isn't fair, some people are born with more advantages than others (family wealth, iq, moral support) and you should never cheat on a test. Some may see inconsistancy in his advice ('Others have more advantages so you SHOULD cheat on a test'), but I don't.

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>Lasik improves your eyesight. Eyesight is one, if not the most important things a batter needs. You need a fair amount of muscle mass to be able to hit HRs. Why shouldn't someone that has trouble putting on muscle mass be able to use steroids to correct a physialogial problem that won't let them put on a lot of mass when they can do somethign enhance their eyesight? Where do you draw the line as to what is an acceptable enchancement and what isn't? Is the defining line when the enhancement allows to chase hallowed records? No one is too worried about pitchers on steroids, but they howl bloody murder about batters using them. That is basically what it has boiled down to and it's utterly rediculous.<br /><br />Bonds may be enhanced, but he put up numbers against competion that is far superior competition (steroid enhanced pitchers, Blacks and other foriegn players, etc) to what Ruth, Cobb, etc ever had to face. Those guys were great and they would be great today too, but they wouldn't be putting up the numbers they did back then if they were playing today.<br /><br />Jay<br /><br />I've just reached Upper Lower Class. I am now officially a babe magnet for poor chicks.

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>davidcycleback</b><p>Jay, many of your competition and other types of cheating in different types are worthwhile. While I am still and will be against players using steroids, I consider your points legitimate.<br /><br />Do realize that one reason I am against steroids in baseball is not HR numbers and such, but because these drugs are dangerous and untested. If it is a practical requirement to take steroids in order to make a team because others are using steroids, this means nearly all minor leaguers and 16 and 17 year old hoping to play ball will be taking steroids. In my opinion, the day the requirment to play a sport is that a potential player has to be on dangerous drugs is the day I would consider it child abuse for a parent to let their kids play the sport. Even if you were to convince me that steroids are okay from a competition standpoint, I would still be against steroids in baseball.<br /><br />Lastly, unlike eye and Tommy John surgery, taking, using and selling many of these steroids is against the law. Irrelevant to your or my ethical judgments, you would have to convince lawmakers to make these drugs legal before Major League Baseball or anyone could purposely allow them to be used by players. If today or tomorrow it was proven that Bud Selig set out to promote and allow steroids in baseball, he would face a felony conviction and MLB would be in deep ****.

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>identify7</b><p>Following the 1994 baseball strike, which among other things, robbed fans of the World Series; baseball game attendence was way down, and worse - TV Ratings were too. And they stayed down until the unbelievable 1998 Sosa/McGwire season.<br /><br />Now I will agree that a bigger ballplayer has an improved liklihood for hitting the long ball, to a point, but I think it takes way more than size to hit 60 or more homeruns in a season. Otherwise Kluszewski and others of his "natural" physique would be at the top of accomplishment in this area, rather than relative pipsqueaks like Aaron.<br /><br />I therefore conclude that steriods alone is not the factor which resulted in McGwire and Sosa averaging over 60 HRS/yr for more than 3 consecutive years; and Bonds topping McGwire's record of 70.<br /><br />It has to be something which baseball did, such as juicing the ball for several years, then retracting the juice. I do not believe that muscle mass alone can accomplish what has happened. I do believe that the best scam is the one that you pull off without anyone knowing they have been scammed - and that is what baseball is doing, imho.

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>Steroids have been around a long time. Even when I graduated in 1981, I knew that if I took steroids, I stood a better chance of being bigger and stronger and getting a college scholarship. I chose not to do it because it was anethema to the health kick I was on at the time. I'm sure the pressures today at the HS level are much greater than when I went to school. All you have to look is look at the kids today playing football and there is no doubt that steroids are heavily used in HS today. It was the rare kid that weighed in at 250 when I was a kid, and he was usually just fat. Today, you ahve HS teams sporting offensive and defensive linemen that would make college teams from the 70s look like a Pop Warner team. I lived in the Bay Area, got to watch and had a roommate that for the DeLasalle HS. That team could easily play at the college level with the size and talent they had. My roommate said steroids were regular part of training. If you didn't use, you most likely weren't going to make the team.<br /><br />So I don't really buy that making steroids legit in pro sports will cause more kids to use them. The pressure is already there, and has been there since the 80s.<br /><br />Jay<br><br>I've just reached Upper Lower Class. I am now officially a babe magnet for poor chicks.

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>davidcycleback</b><p>For me, a simple cuttoff for what is allowable and not allowable are the rules for the game. While the rules in baseball could be that a base runner does not have to touch the base to be safe, the rules are that he has to touch base to be safe. While the rule could have been written that a runner can run straight from second base to home, the rules say he is out he he does this. <br /><br />If a fan hopes to change the rules about base running or anything else, that is accepted and encouraged. It's the American way. Rules are changed regularly. But until the rules are changed, the existing rules are what we use to judge and play the game.<br /><br />And if one were to apply Jay's standard 'all or nothing' argument, if you think it's okay to break MLB's rule about steroids, does that mean you think it's okay to run the bases backwards or catch a fly on the third bounce and call it an out? All three are against the rules so if breaking one is okay, what would be wrong about breaking all three?<br /><br />The rule of thumb is to follow the rules of the game, as their reason for existence is to be the arbitor in case of disagreements. If you want to change the rules for future games, that is acceptable behavior.<br /><br />And if one were to argue that this argument of mine is somewhat dubious in the steroids context, as I would not have made it if steroids had not been clearly against MLB's rules, I would agree with him.

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>Anson</b><p>Steroids can account for a lot more home runs. Easily handled fly outs are now clearing the fence. Also, in regards to average, ground balls and line drives have more on them. No, steroids don't help with hand-eye coordination. But, a talented athlete like Bonds, who is quite capable of putting the bat on the ball, now can stretch his hits harder and further. He earns a reputation for being able to crush the ball 60+ a year and it causes pitchers to intentionally walk him more, raising his OBP. I can go on...<br /><br />Barry belongs in the Hall of Fame, regardless of the roids. He's been a great player throughout his career. But, his numbers over the past five seasons need to have a little more consideration taken into account. <br /><br />Eyesight is measured on a scale where 20/20 is considered "average" not perfect. Deviations from this balance may cause increased dynamics in one sense with a decreased ability in the other. Lasik is capable of correcting some of these imperfections, as well as treating certain eye ailments. But, it by no means gives anyone improved vision from that of average vision.<br /><br />

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>Joe_G.</b><p>I usually avoid the O/T posts, but this is too much to take.<br /><br />First, I did see the SNL Barry Bonds skit, it cracked me up when Barry started complaining about the doctors and the need for them to start working on things that "really matter", like uncontrollable rage, back acne, etc. It was certainly one of the better skits.<br /><br />On a more serious note, I feel like I'm in the minority after reading this thread. I'm surprised, apparently I'm the only one that doesn't want to cut Barry or the other juicers any slack, sorry. Taking illegal drugs to enhance performance, if & when proven, should result in suspension and be grounds for loss of HOF eligibility. The other forms of cheating discussed thus far seem clearly different to me. I don't see corrective surgery, be it eye, elbow, etc. even in the same ballpark. Other sports don't tolerate it and neither should baseball. I'm not saying other sports are clean, I know all struggle with it, but each should take a strong stand. Success in sports shouldn't require you loose ability to produce testosterone, pose risk to those around you (rage), or my favorite, suffer from back acne ; )<br /><br />Steroids are illegal, pose a very serious risk to the user, and unless everyone decides to use them, gives you an unfair advantage. I don't care what slant you put on it, I will not be cheering for Barry or anyone I believe to be cheating the system.<br /><br />Am I alone on this?<br /><br />Best Regards,<br />Joe Gonsowski

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>I'd love to see sports played on pure atheltic ability, but that will never happen. I'm a realist, and realize that that people always have and always will cheat, especially when the rewards are so huge in todays society. Pretty much everyone that starrts using steroids knows the risks. Sports need to quit trying to be puritaical and just let people do whatever they want in order to compete. Bodybuilding tried to do a steroid free competition but that failed miserabley because people start cheating there too.<br /><br />All you can do is make sure that the athletes know the risks and let them do what they will. The competitions would be much more honest.<br /><br />Jay<br><br>I've just reached Upper Lower Class. I am now officially a babe magnet for poor chicks.

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>warshawlaw</b><p>didn't we have a memo stating that taking steroids illegally was a violation of the rules of baseball? For that reason alone, none of the justifications for Bobnds' actions work. He broke the rules, he should not be in the HOF, period. Pete Rose put it best in an interview this weekend on Bill Maher's show, stating that any elite player already has great hand-eye coordination but if you can add beef to that player's physique the added strength will let him drive the ball farther each time he hits it.

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>Al Crisafulli</b><p>Indeed, steroids turn flyouts into home runs.<br /><br />Do they turn infield singles into two-hop groundouts? Bloop singles into flyouts? Do they turn a hard, opposite-field foul liner into the stands into a lineout to center? A foul pop into the stands behind the plate into a tip straight back into the catcher's mitt? <br /><br />Do steroids beef you up to the point where you can no longer leg out an infield single on a weak grounder? Do they turn a line-drive double down the first base line into a hard flyout to right? <br /><br />Do they turn a line drive single to center into a deep flyout instead? Do they turn a double in the gap into a long flyout to the warning track?<br /><br />We have no idea, do we? No. We all know they turn long fly balls into longer fly balls. But do they turn weak hits into outs? Good, solid singles into lineouts? <br /><br />I would think they probably do. And yet Bonds hit .370 a few years ago.<br /><br />Here's another question - lots of times, people make allowances for a player's numbers because of the park they played in. I've heard many people say that Joe D would have hit 80 more home runs if he didn't play in Yankee Stadium. Well, would Barry have hit ten more home runs a season if he was playing in Pac Bell instead of windy Candlestick? The year he hit 46 home runs at Candlestick, years before his steroid use began, could it be that there were 10 flyouts that got hung up in the wind, that might have gone out if he was playing in Pac Bell, or still with the Pirates?<br /><br />Furthermore - if he wasn't batting against juiced-up pitchers, is it possible he could have gotten around on ten pitches during the season that were swinging strike three's instead? Maybe he could have hit 83, instead of 73.<br /><br />We'll never know. And until we can scientifically answer all those questions, I refuse to marginalize his numbers over the last five or six years. The man is an amazing ballplayer, playing in the steroid era, against other players who are on steroids.<br /><br />-Al

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>identify7</b><p>Bonds has been hitting 35-50 HRs each year since the early 90s. This is common enough.<br /><br />One year (2001) he hit 73. Unprecidented! But baseball history is full of persons who have an unbelievable year.<br />But it is more than that. He has been slugging at approximately an .800 pace over the past four years - and he is beyond his 40th birthday. Well, this is unusual for a player statistically thought to be near the end of his career. But it is just unusual. One player to mirror this accomplishment in my lifetime is Wilhelm. He was putting together seasons under 2.00 ERA into his mid-40s; and winning seasons beyond that.<br /><br />Im sorry friends, all you have is circumstantial evidence (although I admit that the circumstances appear to be steroid use). <br /><br /><br />I have to vote with Jay on this one. A balk is against the rules, and when one is established the penalty is meted out. Steroids are against the rules, if proven are any records voided? Sorry, its in the books. <br /><br />First there was Williamson for 30+ years, then Ruth and Maris for similar intervals. I may not live to see Bonds record broken, and you may not either. But there is no purging it. Wait - maybe an asterisk.

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>Al Crisafulli</b><p>"Steroids are against the rules, if proven are any records voided?"<br /><br />That's another great point. I think we all acknowledge that the man has juiced, but he's never tested positive. Without a positive test, it's tough to go back and find the date that his numbers should be erased from the books. <br /><br />If he ever does test positive, baseball has now established penalties - but I think he's got to test positive a LOT of times before lifetime suspension becomes an issue.<br /><br />-Al<br /><br />

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>Al, PacBell, or whatever they call it now, is not a HR hitters paradise. It's jsut the opposite. And hitting them down right field like Bonds does is even tougher. I'm not sure if 10 opposing players have hit HRs into the Cove, yet Bonds, I think, has done it close to 50 times. Imagine the numbers he could have put up if he played in a true hitters paradise like Colorado. He might have made run at 100, as absurd as that sounds.<br /><br />Jay<br><br>I've just reached Upper Lower Class. I am now officially a babe magnet for poor chicks.

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>Al Crisafulli</b><p>Jay, I think Bonds is the only person to hit it into McCovey's Cove more than twice.<br /><br />Yes, PacBell is not a hitter's paradise. But it was built for Bonds. From what I understand, balls don't get hung up in the wind the way they did at Candlestick. A home run is a home run at Pac Bell, whereas I've seen film of long fly balls hit at Candlestick that wound up getting blown back and landing in the INFIELD.<br /><br />If Bonds has hit 50 into the water, and who knows how many more out into right, my point is that perhaps without the Candlestick wind, he could have hit more out than he did.<br /><br />-Al

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>davidcycleback</b><p>It's not true one requires a positive steroids test to prove guilt. In a court of a law, a variety of circumstantial evidence can be significantly more compelling to a judge or jury than a lab test.<br /><br />If, as a defendant in a court case, Mark McGwire chose to take the stand and testify as he did before Congress, most juries and judges would use his evasive answers as evidence of guilt. If, according to past record, McGwire repeatedly stated he never used steroids but, when put under oath in case, he refused to repeat the stance and repeatedly tried to change the subject and gave evasive answers, odds are the jury would find him guilty (Note: if in a court case he testified as defendant, there would likely be much evidence already presented against him. Defendants are usually advised no to testify).<br /><br />Sammy Sosa's 'No entender' act would likely hold up simularly well in court of law. (Golly gee, do think the prosecution might submit video tapes of Sosa conversing in English?)<br /><br />In the Olympics, athletes have been suspended for illegal drug use without a positve drug test. It happened this last Winter Olympics ... In an other Olympics case (Austrian skiiing team), there were no positive steroids test that I'm aware of, but the team may be penalized becaused they hired time with a banned coach and because some skiiers impeded investigation (including literally throwing out the window labratory material). The likely will be punished, perhaps severely, even if there are no positive drug tests, as the circumstantial offenses are considered significant enough and evidence enough of bad behavior. According to some Olympic officials, the hiring of the banned coach is reason enough for punishment.

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>I used to live in SF and have attended many games at both The Stick and the new park. People claim the park was built for Bonds, but it's obviously not that easy to hit it over the wall in right. I've been down on the field at home plate. It's like Fenway, the wall seems so close that it seemed I could poke it over the wall with ease.<br /><br />David, I doubt you'll ever see the day that baseball, or any other sport in the US goes the route of the Olympics. They trying to uphold an ideal of pure athleticism. American sports only worships the all-mighty dollar. And if that means atheletes pumping themselves full of drugs, etc in order to draw fans and increase revenues, then they will continue to let athletes do pretty much anything they want.<br /><br />Jay<br><br>I've just reached Upper Lower Class. I am now officially a babe magnet for poor chicks.

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>Anson</b><p>It seems that we all have our opinions and probably won't change them. Obviously some of us are Bonds fans and some aren't.<br /><br />Facts<br /><br />Barry only eclipsed 40 home runs 3 times in his first 14 years (up to age 34). In his past five years (not taking his injured 2005 into account) he eclipsed 40 home runs every year with a few "unbelievable" seasons. His slugging percentage went up 150 to 200 points as well. <br /><br />Bonds is an amazing talent, no arguement there. I guess we'll never know how good/bad he would have been in his last five years if he wasn't juiced. But, I'm sure he'd be on his way to the Hall either way.

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>Judge Dred (Fred)</b><p>W/o the juice Barry would have been a HOF player. The juice just allowed him to put up some incredible numbers at the end of his career.<br /><br />Pre-juice a homerun every 16 or so at bats.<br />After-juice a homerun every 8 or so at bats.<br /><br />I only hope people don't try to rationalize this statistic unless the debate/arguement includes that he did it with roids or whatever clear or cream was used. Like I've been saying, Bonds has been an incredible hitter to watch these past few seasons. He certainly put fans in the seats and brought about a lot of excitement in these past 5 years (juiced or not - yes juiced).

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>identify7</b><p>Rationalizing that statistic? What? Getting better with time? Certainly Bonds got much better. So did Heilmann (quite markedly), and lots of others.<br /><br />I am not pro-Bonds. I am anti-He is guilty because of ....