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One Final Informal Poll on Taking Out Creases

Posted By: JohnBrian, Good point, and for the record I say we create a new hobby rule, once marked the card should always sell for that price. Anyone have any T3’s for .75 cents each? <img src="http://photos.imageevent.com/piojohn3/smileys/143.gif"> <img src="http://photos.imageevent.com/piojohn3/ebay/websize/back1.jpg">

One Final Informal Poll on Taking Out Creases

Posted By: GregI'm pretty new to card collecting and, in an attempt to learn as much about the hobby as I can, I'm trying to soak in as much of this topic as I can. (I guess "soak in" isn't the best term I should have used, now that I think about it). From what I gather, it appears that soaking cards to remove a crease or glue residue/dirt seems to be taboo among the purists. From this discussion, the general concensus appears to be that a card should never be touched in any way, shape or form. Although I can truly appreciate this sentiment, I guess my question is two fold. First, who's to say that the high end cards out there were never touched by water before they entered the collecting market? I guess I don't understand why a card can't be cleaned, or pressed to remove a crease or warp if there is no alteration of the card beyond it's original state, especially if it can't be detected. Did rain ever hit it? Did someone clean some dirt off it 50 years ago? There's no way of absolutely knowing the true history of these century old pieces of cardboard. Second, if water, the most basic cleaner out there, is such a taboo substance to touch the surface of a card, why then is sticking these little pieces of history in a plastic slab with a cheesy computer generated sticker on it, thus permanently altering it's historic appearance for all of eternity, so widely accepted? If anything alters the overall appearance of a card, these slabs seem to be the most blatant. From an esthetic standpoint, they leave a lot to be desired. From a historic standpoint, nothing says early 20th century than plastic. While I'm pretty new to collecting cards, I have, for the past thiry some years collected late 19th and early 20th century Brewery advertising. The good portion of our collection is composed of paper/lithography, most of which are the only known examples of their kind. I have never felt it inappropriate to "conserve" our items through restoration...stabilize water marks by having them reduced, repair tears or creases if possible (which is not always possible), and, finally, having these historic treasures mounted in archival, historically appropriate frames. Has it ruined their original state? In my opinion, no. It has stabilized them from further deterioration for future generations to enjoy and it has made them more pleasant to view overall. None have been returned to a "like new" appearance, but now that they have been conserved, they are less likely to deteriorate over time. I know most museums conserve items when appropriate. Just look at what the Smithsonian has done with the Flag that flew in Baltimore. If it wasn't for conservation, this national treasure would probably be gone in a century. I know cards are different from what I've been talking about, and I appreciate fully those who want their cards untouched, but I thought I would just give another perspective. As far as what cards generate monetarily based on a grade scale in a slab (when there seem to be hundreds of the same card out there), I'm still trying to figure that one out....that's going to take more time I suppose. OK, I'm ready to be slammed now.... Greg

One Final Informal Poll on Taking Out Creases

Posted By: Brian Weisner Hi John, I agree, I bought a Southern Leaguer at an antique market a few weeks ago for 45.00, but the back said 2.50. I asked the cashier as a joke, but she looked it up in the dealers book and offered to call and ask. I paid the 45 for a nice EX+ card and laughed all the way out of the door. Be well Brian PS I bought a nice T206 of Lajoie in the late 80's for 10.00, and the price is still on the back.........

One Final Informal Poll on Taking Out Creases

Posted By: T206CollectorGreg, I for one will not slam you. Your points are all similar to the points I've been trying to make. So far, you and Judge Dred have done an admirable job of explaining a philosophy of card collecting.

One Final Informal Poll on Taking Out Creases

Posted By: Peter_SpaethI would be interested in your thoughts on my point that detectable or not is not an objective, binary inquiry and therefore is not a valid test for whether an alteration is acceptable.

One Final Informal Poll on Taking Out Creases

Posted By: JohnGreg, You raise some great questions, and in no way would I slam you on those. I will try to answer your questions the best I can. The problem with restoration is for the most part (I said most part) were not really talking about one-of-a-kind items here. Were talking about mass distributed lithography and cardboard premiums. Much like in the toy market a painted antique fire truck is worth less than an untouched one. Books as well, super clean copies of first editions are worth more than used first editions. As for being touched by water, cleaned spit shined etc. in the past. I’m sure it happened these cards were meant to be held in the hand and have been doing just that for over 100yrs. What I think Jim, Peter, Todd, Andy and all the others are pointing too. Is the modern collector such as Paul and others who are practicing using modern methods of card restoration/cleaning etc. what every you call it. These very methods can be innocent and evil, and there is fine line between those. It’s that fine line in which we are debating over and all sides have valid points and passion on their side. As for me, as a buyer of vintage cards I would be very upset to find out that I paid for an EX+ or NM card to find out that it only achieved that grade due to someone’s tampering with its original state. Not only would I be upset due to the extra money wasted, but also for me when I look at my cards it’s neat to know they have survived in their current condition all these years, and in a fact haven’t been juiced or undergone major cleaning jobs to get where they are today. The best analogy I can think of is… It’s like replica cars there are people who would love to have a Shelby Cobra 427 replica kit car. And there’s nothing wrong with that, in fact can’t drop 250k+ on a real one it's the next best thing. That works fine for some, me I would only want the real thing, if I cant afford it I find something I can afford and love it equally as much. And for the record I am in no way an ultra high-end card collector. Not because I think it’s a world conspiracy and all are trimmed. The most deciding factor in my choice to not collect ultra high-end cards (7’s, 8’s, 9’s) is a monetary one, I can’t afford too! <img src="http://photos.imageevent.com/piojohn3/smileys/143.gif"> So I stick to my 4’s, 5’s and 6’s. Think of it as America’s Semi Average to Tougher Wantlist for now. <img src="http://photos.imageevent.com/piojohn3/smileys/3.gif">

One Final Informal Poll on Taking Out Creases

Posted By: T206Collector"I would be interested in your thoughts on my point that detectable or not is not an objective, binary inquiry and therefore is not a valid test for whether an alteration is acceptable." Definitely agree. My point was that the hardline purists do not care, even if the world was a binary inquiry. Thus, to make my point, it was unnecessary to look into the real world shades of gray. Even if non-detection was forever certain, the purists would still balk. "As for me, as a buyer of vintage cards I would be very upset to find out that I paid for an EX+ or NM card to find out that it only achieved that grade due to someone’s tampering with its original state. Not only would I be upset due to the extra money wasted, but also for me when I look at my cards it’s neat to know they have survived in their current condition all these years, and in a fact haven’t been juiced or undergone major cleaning jobs to get where they are today." But the fact is that, in a binary detection/non-detection world, no money would be "wasted" and Wonka would never know that cards had or had not "surviced in their current condition all these years." Even in the real world, with detection a theoretical possibility, it may never be known. "It’s like replica cars there are people who would love to have a Shelby Cobra 427 replica kit car. And there’s nothing wrong with that, in fact can’t drop 250k+ on a real one it's the next best thing. That works fine for some, me I would only want the real thing, if I cant afford it I find something I can afford and love it equally as much." This analogy would apply only if we were doctoring up old Honus reprints, which, of course, we're not.

One Final Informal Poll on Taking Out Creases

Posted By: John“But the fact is that, in a binary detection/non-detection world, no money would be "wasted" and Wonka would never know that cards had or had not "surviced in their current condition all these years." Even in the real world, with detection a theoretical possibility, it may never be known.” Hmmm…maybe and maybe not Paul. Many of my T206’s came from a large find when I was a young collector. I would hope the old bird that had them had better things to do rather than soak and press his baseball cards. Also many of my cards were bought before the hype of grades and grading companies, when it was a lot less profitable to be pressing wrinkles and minor creases out. Heck back then a wrinkle equaled EX or better still. LOL If your point is in my collection I might have a worked card and not know it? Ok, I might have card that I have bought out of the hundreds I have bought in the past years. So what’s your point because I didn’t catch it its ok, because someone pulled one over on me we all should be doing it? I’ll say it again if soaking is such an acceptable routine in the collecting world and I’m some rabid purist! Why don’t auction houses, dealers, and other collectors fully disclose this info on a daily basis? Heck why not soak your cards in front of SGC or PSA after all as Leon said they will assign a grade to soaked cards as long as there’s not trace of chemicals. When you dropped off your SGC 70 below did you chat with the graders on how you salvaged the card from half a back of paper? If not why didn’t you mention it? I’m sure they would be amazed. Why don’t they offer this service, after all a grading company is in the service business right? When you sell the card below are you going to bring it up? When you found the card below as is would it have received the grade below before your night of work? It’s not so much the soaking Paul I really don’t care if you have swimming pool full of T206’s as we speak. It’s the fact that none of these cards will have any of this past history disclosed to future buyers. Compound that with how I'm also to believe that your removing paper and you aren’t also getting rid of those crease's too? <img src="http://photos.imageevent.com/piojohn3/ebay/small/PfeisterThrowingSGC70.jpg"> “I respectfully disagree. Buying a baseball card is like buying a used car. Caveat emptor -- let the buyer beware.” If I ever bought a card from you no doubt I should.

One Final Informal Poll on Taking Out Creases

Posted By: leonI think you are lumping soaking to take out creases or wrinkles with soaking to remove paper remnants or glue. One is considered taboo by almost everyone on this board and the other isn't, by the majority. This card had a big blotch of paper on the back of it. It covered maybe half of a dime size in the lettering.... Would it make a difference if you were buying this from me, as to what you would pay for it, if I told you I got a piece of paper off of the back, with some water? Would you pay less if you knew it up front? You can still see a little residue on the back even after the bath.... (it's not for sale and is the 3rd Weaver I have from the Trucker Boy find)....best regards Also, I know some of the graders at SGC. Their stance is sort of common sense...if they can't detect something they can't ding the grade for it...and I am not saying it's ok to do anything other than what we have been debating or it's ok as long as they can't tell...anything other than what I stated in the poll I started and I would feel it's altering.. <img src="http://luckeycards.com/pt2123weaver.jpg">

One Final Informal Poll on Taking Out Creases

Posted By: JohnLeon, As said before I really don’t have a problem with removing paper from cards, as long as it’s disclosed. That goes for pencil marks too. The issues I have is that many people aren’t as honest as we would like them to be. So for some stopping at just removing paper may not be so easy, and who’s to say your not removing wrinkles or creases in the process deliberately or by pure innocent accident. I hope you can understand my concern with that. I also understand it goes on, it happens etc. But as you stated regarding auction houses doing it, why the big secret if so mainstream and no big deal? Why not disclose as in the art world professionally restored etc. Hell in that world sometimes the restoration increases the value. As for you’re wonderful Weaver, no it wouldn’t stop me from purchasing it, in fact I think its accurately graded due to the residue. I would however like it disclosed if there was no trace of residue on the card, and I thought I was buying that EX+ Weaver. To find out the card had been worked on and it was not disclosed, would bother me. It may seem silly to you guys but that’s just how I feel. As for the minority perhaps Leon, but no disrespect to you or the forum and its members, good folks here including you. But the recent sample I don’t think covers the entire hobby; in fact I had been collecting for 20+years and had never heard of this place up until a few years ago. I think soaking is not mentioned in auction houses because I’m not in the minority, I think there are many folks out there who would find it hard to swallow that the card just had paper or residue removed and nothing else done. Best Regards, John

One Final Informal Poll on Taking Out Creases

Posted By: Gilbert MainesI do not believe that what the good people on this board consider taboo matters at all to the rest of the world. If there is the capability for undetectable alterations and financial advantage associated with it, an increasing percentage of cards will be affected by it. And it typically will not be revealed, just slabbed.