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Posted By: <b>Gilbert Maines</b><p>Go4It Josh! Twist my statements to create whatever comedy routine pleases you. I too will sit back and enjoy your creations.

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Posted By: <b>Josh K.</b><p>Please tell me how I twisted your words:<br /><br /><br />"I must be alone in the belief that hatred due to the characteristics of specific individuals is not only justified, it is warranted."<br /><br />"I have found that when dealing with bullies an approach alternate to hoping that they will soon grow tired of hitting you, is to let them know that they have been in a battle"<br /><br />"And persons with the following characteristics I currently hate, solely based on those characteristics, and I plan to continue to hate, are summarized below. This list is no where near complete."<br /><br />"Bullies who use our airplanes to crash into our buildings."<br /><br /><br />I have not twisted anything - Ive made an analogy using your logic - just from the opposite point of view.

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Posted By: <b>andy becker</b><p>i thought this was dead and buried too.<br /><br />gil, i don't think any of us are questioning your legal right to hate someone. we are questioning your moral and ethic makeup which would lead you to express those feeling in a public forum. <br /><br />in my book, it is not ok to hate someone for no other reason than his/her nationality, religon, ethnic background, hair color, etc.....<br /><br />i do not think josh twisted your words, go back and re-read them yourself. <br /><br />and gil, many times after reading your cryptic posts i find myself thinking...."i want to party with that guy!"<br /><br />this time you articulated your feelings (at least well enough for me to somewhat understand them) and i think you are off-base. all any of us asked was for this marcus to come back and explain the intent of his thread. he still has not, and i'm not sure why anyone is defending that type of troll.

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Posted By: <b>James Feagin</b><p>Of course it is illegal in this country to "hate" someone. Due to bogus "hate crime" legislation, the state gets to judge the intents of your heart in the commission(sp?) of a crime. If they judge that you have committed a "thought" crime in addition to another crime, your penalty is harsher. Never mind this is seperate and unequal and "protected" groups get all the benefits. Nevertheless, it can be illegal to "hate" someone.

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Posted By: <b>Andrew Parks</b><p>God hated Esau AND chose the Jews as His people. How does that fit into all of this?

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Posted By: <b>Gilbert Maines</b><p>Josh, I am at a loss as to how my statements can be extrapolated to the following conclusion:<br /><br />So I guess by your logic the 9/11 terrorist were justified in their hatred and actions as well - for they were merely letting us know that we were in for a fight.<br /><br />There is no evidence which establishes that motivation as defense against a bully anymore than there is evidence that their motivation was our support of Israel.<br /><br />In this game, guessing is deadly.<br /><br />And Andy: I never had intent to defend Marcus. The conclusion which I drew was that it is impossible to draw a conclusion of his motivation based on the words which he typed.<br /><br />And I assure you that characteristics such as nationality, religon, ethnic background, hair color, financial status, etc..... have no meaning to me, while characteristics such as sexual preferences, questionable activities and the like could indeed make a significant difference regarding my feelings toward an individual.<br /><br />And James, it certainly does reap a more significant punishment if you commit a crime which can be related to hate. But the key there is that you have commited a crime.<br /><br />Why don't we all just let this drop? I do not think that there is real controversy here. Then again, it is kinda fun!<br /><br />And as far as airing my hatred for the world to see: I do not believe that my deep dark secret is now out of the bag. I actually believe that we all hate those who can and may harm us severely at any time.<br /><br />Esau = asuy

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Posted By: <b>warshawlaw</b><p>It is illegal to assault someone or kill them or whatever. Doing so out of racial or other animus is an enhancement to the penalties. You can hate whoever you want, you just can't kick their asses because of it. <br /><br />Gil: I used to hate lots of people: Palestinians, white supremacists, my opposing counsels in hard-fought cases. Then I figured it out. Hating someone, even your sworn enemy, coarsens, degrades and lowers you to the level of an animal. Hatred leads to irrational personal decisions and bad choices in public policy. It inevitably destroys justice and morality leaving in its place only an ever-escalating chain of violence. It dehumanizes the subject of the hatred, ultimately justifying the most heinous, barbarous acts against them. If I hate you, I cannot engage in any kind of dialogue with you under any circumstances because I have already defined you as anathema to my existence. Instead, I must do anything possible to destroy you. If the Allies hated the Axis countries, they would have had no choice other than to wipe them from the face of the earth, not seek their surrender and re-emergence into the community of nations. How does hating them help? And if they hate us and we hate them, how can we ever expect to reach any kind of end to the violence, other than by annihilating them and everyone who sympathizes with them? No, your path leads nowhere good.

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Posted By: <b>Kevin Cummings</b><p>OK, finally a baseball connection.....<br /><br />Lifetime stats for Walter <b>Esau</b> Beall:<br /><a href="http://www.baseball-reference.com/b/beallwa01.shtml" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.baseball-reference.com/b/beallwa01.shtml</a>

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Posted By: <b>steve f</b><p>Gil, <br /><br /> I wish you'd simply be frank, but I got it now... You believe noone else is a threat to your way of life but terrorists (neos, militia etc), lesbians and gay men... Or perhaps you're post ain't clear. <br /><br /><br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>Gilbert Maines</b><p>Adam, I know you to be right. However, I visualize my daughters being thirty years younger than they are, and a pedophile moving into our area. A clear and present danger to young daughters. Hurray for daddies everywhere (and mommies too).

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Posted By: <b>James Feagin</b><p>"It is illegal to assault someone or kill them or whatever. Doing so out of racial or other animus is an enhancement to the penalties. You can hate whoever you want, you just can't kick their asses because of it."<br /><br /> I fail to see how that isn't even close. It is illegal to hate someone when it is COUPLED with a violent act. The penalties are harsher because it is also a "thought crime" as well. It is unequal because some groups are protected, while others aren't. On the 11 o'clock news last night I saw a video where a young African-American man committed what could be construed as Aggravated Assault on a young White male during a basketball game. Nothing was mentioned of it being a "hate" crime, just an assault. If the tables were turned, it would have been automatically deemed a "hate" crime. Could'nt all crime be deemed as such? Why must we legislate thoughts or give tougher penalties for presumed intent? As for this thread, I know the original poster must be sitting back in his easy chair with a huge grin over all the fuss and knee-jerk reactions and assumptions he created.

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Posted By: <b>andy becker</b><p>i guess ozzie guillen is now visiting the vintage board... <br />

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Posted By: <b>Josh K.</b><p>James, <br /><br />Im not a criminal lawyer, but there has to be evidence of intent based on race etc. before something becomes a hate crime. A crime against someone of a different color or religion isnt enough - however, if you do it in a white hood (and by hood I mean hat, not ones place of residence), it might be.<br /><br />Further, and one of the criminal lawyers can correct me if Im wrong, but I believe if there is evidence that a white person was assaulted due to the color of their skin, it too could be deemed a hate crime. <br /><br />Finally, what Adam was trying to explain is that you cannot be convicted simply for hating someone - that is not illegal. You are convicted of the crime (ie the assault, etc). Once convicted, the sentencing takes into account any aggravating factors - one of which is a hate based crime. Thus, you might get 20 years instead of 10 years but youre going to jail for the crime itself either way.

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Posted By: <b>James Feagin</b><p>Josh,<br /><br />Thanks for the explanation, and I fully understand what both yourself and Adam are saying. Since I've been married and ESPECIALLY since my wife is having our first next week BOTH my verbal and written communication skills have been lacking as far as intent <img src="/images/wink.gif" height=14 width=14> I KNOW what I mean, unfortunately no one else, ESPECIALLY MY MOTHER IN LAW knows what I'm trying to get across.

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Posted By: <b>Josh K.</b><p>No problem James - I know what having a baby does to one's mind <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> Congrats in advance.

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Posted By: <b>Gilbert Maines</b><p>Unfortunately Mother-in-laws ability to understand is at its peak when you first get married, if my experience is typical.<br /><br />And as far as hate crimes including extra punishment for the thought element, it has been precedented by having premeditated murder (for example) yielding a higher penalty than impulsive murder. So if based on hate, a crime is considered at least partially premeditated. I think.

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Posted By: <b>JimB</b><p>They are not necessarily crimes according to the laws of this country, but there are some very disturbing thoughts held by some of the participants of this thread. I hope they do not act upon them.<br />JimB

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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>I have had several requests to lock this thread and do feel at this point it is time. Any other thoughts can be taken to private emails...thanks for playing....regards ...moderator dude...