So who's going to pony up for Pete Hill?
 

Posted By: <b>Bottom of the Ninth</b><p>King,<br /><br />Should that really shock you? <br /><br />Greg

So who's going to pony up for Pete Hill?
 

Posted By: <b>Judge Dred (Fred)</b><p>Does anyone know the Hill card valuation 2 years ago, a year ago and right before he was given a pass to the HOF? <br /><br />Ryan, you're probably one of the few people that can answer this question. Do you know the last transaction price on this card?

So who's going to pony up for Pete Hill?
 

Posted By: <b>Hal Lewis</b><p>Thanks, CAT.<br /><br />Sorry to hear you are out of the bidding! <img src="/images/sad.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br /><br />Jeff: I am protesting about as much as someone who might lose money would be expected to protest, I guess. If I were shilling, I wouldn't have a care in the world.<br />

So who's going to pony up for Pete Hill?
 

Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>Therein lies the problem....hypothetically I bid my card to xxxx and am the underbidder....the "winner" has lost some cash. There is no way to stop it though as I could also have a hobby friend do it for me. Back to the Pete Hill card. I don't blame the consignor one bit and applaud the open reserve concept. regards

So who's going to pony up for Pete Hill?
 

Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Leon, agreed; that's why the policy of not allowing consignors to bid on their own lots is somewhat specious.

So who's going to pony up for Pete Hill?
 

Posted By: <b>Hal Lewis</b><p>Leon:<br /><br />Do you know if the Major auction houses ever do this (allow sellers to set their own very high reserve)??<br /><br />I quite frankly relied on Leland's to set the "minimum bid" for my card, as they have more experience in the "psychology" of selling things than I do.<br /><br />Do you think Mastro would have accepted the Reccius Wagner for their auction if I had told them to set a minimum bid of $100,000?<br /><br />I can't remember anything with the big auction houses ever starting that high... and if it did, it was something clearly worth a ton more.<br /><br /><br />It seems sort of a Hobson's Choice if someone is supposed to use a Major Auction house to sell because they have great reputations... but then the process of setting a hidden reserve is blasted when the small auction houses do the same thing (but in the open)?<br /><br />I guess what you are saying is that someone who really does NOT want to sell but will sell only if the "price is right" is out of luck if he wants to use one of the Major auction houses?<br /><br />Or not, I just don't know their practices as well as other might? <br /><br />

So who's going to pony up for Pete Hill?
 

Posted By: <b>Tom Boblitt</b><p>Hunt's does (or has done) it...........I have attended a couple auctions where bidding went on and then the lot was not sold due to some behind-the-scenes reserve. Right or wrong, I think most any auction house (save REA per their own statements) would likely take a card valued at $100K with an open reserve (or maybe even unopened). <br /><br />Publicity is everything for these guys. Average lot price, # lots sold, % lots sold, # lots above $10-$20-$50-$100K, etc. Statistics are what drives them. Whether they intend to go public (some have previously done this) or just hype the next auction, those type of lots are very important. And there are houses that will allow consignors to bid on their own lots I believe.

So who's going to pony up for Pete Hill?
 

Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>To answer your question(s)I am not sure it's a "yes or no" answer. If your question is "Do auction houses allow the consignor to set their own reserve?" Technically, I think the answer is no. However by letting the consignor bid on their own item (yes, as I said there are at least 3 major ones who have said I could) aren't we doing the same thing....just covertly? Why all the games? I like what Ryan has done for that very reason. I could even see doing it with at least one of my cards if I ever sold it....For me I like to know where I stand on stuff. I know the Pete Hill WILL sell at 200k + the commission. To me that's far better than me giving a card to Ryan's company and then having an agreement to let me bid and win it and pay the juice on it....again, to me it's the disclosure I applaud...Also, I am not saying the auction houses are doing anything illegal or unethical but it is a slippery slope...I am a customer of almost all of the ones I am thinking of so have no moral issue with it....It's an interesting debate.....regards

So who's going to pony up for Pete Hill?
 

Posted By: <b>Cobby33</b><p>I sell a lot of items on eBay. According to eBay, I am not allowed to bid on my own items, even if I intend to pay myself after winning it. My wife, who also has an eBay account, is not allowed to bid on my items, even if she intends to pay me for them. The same applies to online auctions. <br /><br />If someone wants to set a high reserve and the auction house allows this, great. If not, you take your chances and if you get low-balled, that's one of the perils of listing a card in an auction. I've dealt with it, as I'm sure many others have.

So who's going to pony up for Pete Hill?
 

Posted By: <b>Hal Lewis</b><p>I agree. <br /><br />If I had been "worried" about getting back 100% of my cost on the Wagner...<br /><br />I probably would have lobbied harder for an "Opening Bid" of $65,000.<br /><br />Granted, I fully expected (and still expect) and hoped to get at least that much...<br /><br />but if the market does not bear this out, then all it means is that I overpaid in the beginning.<br /><br />GEE, HOW MANY TIMES HAS THAT HAPPENED! <img src="/images/sad.gif" height=14 width=14>

So who's going to pony up for Pete Hill?
 

Posted By: <b>Cobby33</b><p>Tell me about it!<br />We've got our fingers crossed!<br /><br />

So who's going to pony up for Pete Hill?
 

Posted By: <b>E, Daniel</b><p>To take but ONE part of this thread, while it could theoretically work to have someone you know bid UP an item you are selling - just so you could be sure of buying it back if it didn't meet your reserve, or to set a "market" price for it, there seem to be some pretty big ramifications.<br /><br />First, on a $230000 transaction, the consignor would have to move that amount of funds into his "buddy's" account so that it could be paid for..........not sure how the IRS and Bank Manager would feel about that......and the whole thing starts to look like money laundering to me....<br /><br />Secondly, if the consignor wants to maintain the charade after the sale, he will also still have to front up to the IRS man himself and come up with the capital gains tax amount accrued by "selling" the item.<br /><br />Thirdly, as Hal suggests, then trying to sell it later becomes enormously problematic and the consignor certainly couldn't use the same auction house, or probably any of the big auction houses as the ownership trails of such cards become almost as important as the card itself.<br /><br />I'm not sure the concept really works on large ticket items, and even on smaller items through ebay regular/serious collectors tend to lock away an image in their minds of cards that are interesting - and who is selling them..........not hard to get a really bad reputation that would sink your ability to work with the 'players' in this community who keep alot of the cards moving between hands and creating real demand and inflationary prices.<br /><br />Anyone agree?<br />Daniel

So who's going to pony up for Pete Hill?
 

Posted By: <b>Chad</b><p>Man, I feel like I'm in one of my Patriot Act seminars at work. I know there's a lot of money at stake, but the cards are way more interesting. Aren't they?<br /><br />--Chad

So who's going to pony up for Pete Hill?
 

Posted By: <b>E, Daniel</b><p>Chad, could you supply a link to the auction site or just give me the name of it? I'm not aware of who Ryan is, though everyone else on the site seems to be, and do not know which auctions he runs.....<br /><br />Thanks so much.<br />Daniel

So who's going to pony up for Pete Hill?
 

Posted By: <b>Ben</b><p><a href="http://www.cubanbaseballauctions.com/auction.asp" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.cubanbaseballauctions.com/auction.asp</a>

So who's going to pony up for Pete Hill?
 

Posted By: <b>Chad</b><p>That's the link. If you link to the old auctions, the descriptions will give you a pretty good background on Latin American cards.<br /><br />--Chad

So who's going to pony up for Pete Hill?
 

Posted By: <b>Hal Lewis</b><p>No doubt about it.<br /><br />Ryan's auction is chock full of GREAT cards!

So who's going to pony up for Pete Hill?
 

Posted By: <b>Sean</b><p>Looks like it also has a ghost of Pedro on the back...I think it's cool, 230k cool??? <br /><br />Good luck Hal, I'm pulling for you, it's good to see the money is going towards a worthy cause, but if you need other worthy causes, I'm one. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br />Sean BH

So who's going to pony up for Pete Hill?
 

Posted By: <b>Ryan Christoff</b><p>Fred, <br /><br />Yes, I do know the last transaction price on the Pete Hill card. I won't give you the exact number, but I can tell you it was substantial, even though it was many times less than the minimum bid in the auction. <br /><br />I can tell you this much, the current owner paid WAY more than ANYONE else on the planet would have at the time. In fact, if I was auctioning the card back then and started it at the price he paid for it, this exact thread would probably have taken place, just with different numbers. Actually, people would be more outraged at the price because back then there was never any talk about the realistic possibility of Pete Hill making the Hall of Fame. I've always thought Hill should be in, and the current owner felt stronger than me, but that's not why he bought the card. He bought it because he's a collector and that's the price he had to pay to get the card, regardless of what the "fair market value" was at the time. Had he sold it on ebay shortly thereafter he would have gotten a fraction of what he paid for it. I probably would have wound up as the high bidder for less than half what he paid for it, maybe a lot less. <br /><br />I don't see this as being any different than when you go back and read hobby publications from 30 or 40 years ago and you can't believe people were complaining about having to pay $10 for a T206 Cobb. The current owner of the Pete Hill paid a "crazy" price to get it. I guess it wasn't so crazy after all, just ahead of its time. <br /><br /><br />Rhys, <br /><br />Esteban Prats was indeed a great ballplayer. So was his brother Miguel. I don't believe either are worthy of being considered legitimate HOF candidates, but something I will never be able to explain is the fact that neither of them are even members of the HOF in their own country!!! Esteban played from 1889 to 1910 and Miguel played from 1888 to 1909. Part of the problem might be that there are no stats for the greater portions of their careers, but they still should both have been no-brainers for the Cuban HOF. Both of them were definite stars and among the top few players of the era. I really like that team photo from Matty McIntyre's collection that you won when it was on ebay. They didn't mention Esteban Prats, but he's an easy one to identify. Do you still have it?<br /><br />Okay guys, you can continue discussing Hal and the Wagner. Sorry for hijacking the thread and talking about something other than Hal's defense of his non-shill bidding and the greatness of the Reccius Wagner. Back to the regularly scheduled programming. <br /><br />-Ryan

So who's going to pony up for Pete Hill?
 

Posted By: <b>E, Daniel</b><p>You're a scholar AND a gentleman.<br />Now I had better go and learn a little about, well, stuff I don't know about.<br /><br />Daniel

So who's going to pony up for Pete Hill?
 

Posted By: <b>Hal Lewis</b><p>100

So who's going to pony up for Pete Hill?
 

Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Daniel, money laundering? Huh? Would the bank that the funds be transferred to be on the grassy knoll by any chance?

So who's going to pony up for Pete Hill?
 

Posted By: <b>Judge Dred (Fred)</b><p>Ryan,<br /><br />Thank you for the explanation. It wasn't exactly what I was hoping for but it was more than I expected. That in no way was meant as a knock. Is there anyway to see a scan of the Pete card? Quick question a bit off the topic but something I'd be interested in: are there any 19th Century Cuban cards? <br /><br /><br /><br /><br />

So who's going to pony up for Pete Hill?
 

Posted By: <b>Rhys</b><p>Ryan<br /><br />Thanks for the info on Prats. I found that he won a batting title in Cuba once, but could not find any career info on him. <br /><br />I still have the photo from the McIntyre estate. The person selling it did not mention anything about Prats being on it and he is clearly identified on the back as well. Interesting to note that out of all 60-70 photos I won from the McIntyre estate, about 2/3 had writing on the back that were in Matty's handwriting and this photo is the only one I bought that the writing on the back was obviously from someone else, probably the person who took the photo in 1904-05. Prats is on the bottom row, far left.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1146181710.JPG"> <img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1146181694.JPG">

So who's going to pony up for Pete Hill?
 

Posted By: <b>Daniel Bretta</b><p>Rhys, that looks like the writing on a lot of my McIntyre photos...I always assumed that it was in McIntyre's hand....Maybe his wife's?

So who's going to pony up for Pete Hill?
 

Posted By: <b>Rick</b><p>There are some old cabinets from the 19th century...as well as some generic trade cards, thats about it.

So who's going to pony up for Pete Hill?
 

Posted By: <b>prewarsports</b><p>Dan<br /><br />This is a distinct other handwriting than on the back of the others I bought. I doubt very much this was in his wife's hand either. All the photos I had McIntyre identified himself as "Matty", and this is the only one that does not use that identification. Also, McIntyre is spelled "McIntire" on this photo which is incorrect and so I would assume his wife would know how to spell her own last name. I think it is more likely that the snapshots he or his wife took had their notations on the back, but some of the photos in the book were taken by photographers (including some by famous photgraphers) and notated and then given to McIntyre afterwards. <br /><br />Rhys

So who's going to pony up for Pete Hill?
 

Posted By: <b>Daniel Bretta</b><p>Rhys, the photos that I have with writing resembling the same handwriting as your Tampa photo are all taken in Cuba....Of the team in front of the Student Monument, an "old boat", et cetera. Perhaps they were taken by a Tampa teammate of McIntyre's and given to him.<br /><br />Either way I still think that photo collection is one of the more interesting and important finds in the baseball memorabilia hobby in recent years. Your Tampa photo is a neat find...a lot can be learned from this collection.

So who's going to pony up for Pete Hill?
 

Posted By: <b>E, Daniel</b><p>I know, I'm quite certain I grew up watching to much cop and lawyer tv serials..........<br /><br />I was just thinking, that when you 'buy' something from yourself, and move funds through a number of accounts to do so, it gives the impression of either legitimizing the items ownership because you stole it or came upon it otherwise than buying it, or by moving large amounts of cash through a series of activities and transactions that end with you still having the cash - perhaps you are trying to move 'marked' or ill gotten bills through the banks so as to end up with 'unmarked' or 'safe' money that is not part of a trail...........<br /><br />Again, I know its convoluted and conspiratorial, but somehow thats how the process played out in my head as I was reading the thread! And it was fun daydreaming it out to you guys as well!!!<br /><br />Daniel

So who's going to pony up for Pete Hill?
 

Posted By: <b>Steve</b><p>Doing that could in fact come back and bite you if such transactions were over 10k each time. The banks send the fed a form I think for all transactions of 10k or more.<br /><br />The problem with buying something from yourself (especially if it is a rare item) is that the people that are willing to buy it will see the trail and put 2 and 2 together. It seems to me to be unethical to do such things. If a person wants to see how much an item would go for then a high reserve would tell them that. They could set a reserve for 300.000 for a card that normally sells for 200.000 (or has not been offered in years) in this manner I see no problem. But to buy it back from yourself to set a base price so others THINK it is worth a certain amount is wrong IMO.<br /><br />Steve

So who's going to pony up for Pete Hill?
 

Posted By: <b>Alan</b><p>I have an GREAT appreciation for Ryan's auction, even though I don't collect the material.<br /><br /><a href="http://www.clevelandjewishnews.com/articles/2006/04/28/news/local/acover0428.txt" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.clevelandjewishnews.com/articles/2006/04/28/news/local/acover0428.txt</a><br /><br /><a href="http://www.baseballheritagemuseum.org/" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.baseballheritagemuseum.org/</a>

So who's going to pony up for Pete Hill?
 

Posted By: <b>Gilbert Maines</b><p>Why do you not collect the material, Alan? Certainly some of the Negro Leaguers were Jewish. No? And Negro League ball was not always inferior to that in the Majors, right? Have you checked this out