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Posted By: <b>Richard</b><p>If I had $1000 to spend, I would buy one nice Cobb card and would pass on the 50 decent looking commons at $20each. But that's just me. I would stare at the Cobb card every night, but would find it hard to look at 50 off-grade no-names.

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Posted By: <b>T206Collector</b><p>1) Would you rather own 50 beaters or 50 PSA 8s?<br />2) Wouldy you rather own 50 beaters that are worth the value of 1 PSA 8, or just the 1 PSA 8?<br /><br />With respect to (1), I would rather own 50 PSA 8's.<br />With respect to (2), I would rather own the 50 beaters. <br />

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Posted By: <b>Al Crisafulli</b><p>I have a lot of 20 off-grade 1938 Goudeys. I can come up with 30 more.<br /><br />If someone would like to trade me a PSA 8 Joe DiMaggio for them, just let me know.<br /><br />-Al

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Posted By: <b>E, Daniel</b><p>Not sure again where you're at when you make such statements - about your reference to English Majors - seems to me that it follows much of your disdain for people you don't relate to. And not to get political, I have a feeling it will end this thread, but so much of that goes on these days in this country. As though to be literate, to care about being accurate and knowledgeable is somehow a low indicator of ethical and moral trueness.<br /><br />I know I've made a stretch here, and others will disagree immensely, but its not hard to get a pretty true read of people from what they write - and however you backstep now, your words ring loud and true. Of course, you were speaking to the true-believers, your people, and I'm sure they'll have your back.

Set Registry
 

Posted By: <b>Steve</b><p>&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt; would you rather own 50 beaters or 50 PSA 8s?&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br /><br /><br />Not directed at Mr. Lichtman, I am only using his quote. <br /><br />How about owning what you like and what you can afford?<br /><br />Works for me. <br /><br />As for the reg. I use it as a sort of checklist and have traded and bought and sold from many a member. <br /><br />Steve<br /><br /><br />Ps happy passover and easter to all.<br />

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Posted By: <b>Lee Behrens</b><p>Jeff,<br /><br />Why don't you address my fact about the purchase of a PSA 6 with paper loss for $5000? That is more of the jest of this thread. This happens way to often and to me that is very a foolish purchase. As I stated earlier, everyone has the right to spend there money how they please, but decisions like this do not seem to me like very good ones.<br /><br />As far as what you did address, it wasn't even in the context of the statement I made for the situation, you twisted to meet your income needs and wants not as I addressed the question. More proof to how a statement gets twisted to meet there own needs.<br /><br />Most of us here are on limited budgets and spending on high grade cards is not really an option at this time. If my income was higher would branch out to collect more sets and not get high grade cards. I prefer presentable over high grade.<br /><br />I also think alot of common players are very interesting, take the worst hitter of all time Bill Bergen, .170 career hitter, had a brother that was a great caatcher for the World Champion Beaneaters the ended up murdering his family with an axe. All players have stories some more publized than others. That is one reason if I had $1000 I would spend it on 50 $20 presentable cards.<br /><br />Lee

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Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>Jeff, I'd rather live small, comfortable home than a sprawling expanse of home that requires a house staff. I'd rather drive the vehicle I pulled from the junkyard for $500 than waste the moeny on a $80k vehicle that will never get me back my $80k. I'd rather wear a watch I got out of Cracker Jack box than waste $10k on a Rolex. $10k can buy you some nice cards for your collection. <br /><br />For those of use that don't have six-figure incomes your lifestyle is unrealistic.<br /><br />Jay<br><br>I like to sit outside, drink beer and yell at people. If I did this at home, I would be arrested. So, I go to baseball games and fit right in.

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Posted By: <b>Richard</b><p>Jay -<br /><br />I think that anyone that lives outside of our stupid little card world (probably 99.9% of the people out there) would think it absolutely rediculous to spend 10k on smelly cardboard rather than a Rolex <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>JimB,<br /><br />Fair Point--There may be a a small number of ungraded sets among 10 most popular that are among the best and ungraded.<br /><br />T206,<br /><br />Deal but remember it is as submitted--not after upgrades.<br /><br />Dav

Set Registry
 

Posted By: <b>Frank Wakefield</b><p>Well, I don't know how well known, famous or notorious I am... my name is Frank Wakefield.<br /><br />I'm REALLY biased against grading. I like to be able to touch a card. The little fellows are pieces of history. So the idea of registering a set seems to me the ultimate culmination of this grading folly. But that is not why I post.<br /><br />I've seen some very nice cards, in person, eyeball to cardboard, over the years. Wagners, Cracker Jack cards that look like they never went into the box in the first place, Old Judges that look like they were cut at the printers and then hidden away, beautiful cards. They were not graded. And even if I add into the population the scans of 8s and 9s and all that I've seen on eBay, in auctions, and on this board, it still seems to me that at least 90% of the really nice cards I'm aware of are ungraded.<br /><br />Maybe after a fellow gets a certain number of sets registered, he himself could get graded as a PSA 6 Collector... and if he gets more sets registered, then he could reach the PSA 7 level of collecting, and from that lofty position of honor he could then aspire to become a PSA 8 Collector. They could even send the collector a nice T shirt...<br /><br />Frank<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Jay - what if the cost of a PSA 7 T206 Cobb red background costs the proportional same amount of disposable income to a buyer as does a PSA 1 to you? Does that still make the purchase unwise? Same thing with the watch, house, car, etc.? What about the fact that T206 PSA 7s and 8s have more than doubled in value as based on ebay sales in the past two years? Still an unwise purchase?<br /><br />Lee, just curious: there's a card with paper loss that graded a 6? <br /><br />I think you need to appreciate what Richard wrote. We're in this little bubble spending money (sometimes lots) on cardboard. Sure it goes up in value in time but it's not exactly gold we're buying here. Some people (shudder) might think spending serious coin on baseball cards is foolish. <br /><br />Regardless, I think both you and Jay need to also appreciate that when given the opportunity to own a pristine example of a vintage baseball card, nearly everyone on the planet would rather take that one than a beater. After all, the pristine example is the one that looks the same as it did when it was taken out of a wax pack or a cigarette pack at the time of purchase. It allows us to look at the card and transport ourselves back to that exact moment in time when some kid (or some baseball fan with a nicotine addiction) first gazed upon the card. While a beater may be charming, it sure as hell doesn't look it was meant to look like upon creation no matter how special to you it might be to think that some kid put it under his pillow every day for a year or crammed it into his bicycle spokes.<br /><br />Jay and Lee, you guys seem to argue that money is not worth the troubles it brings. Imagine a world where having money allows you to buy all the stuff you wanted as a kid without any negative repercussions. The issues you guys raise are larger ones than just the simple question of why or why not someone would spend cash on a high graded Registry set. Regardless, I think I answered the question as to why someone would want to complete an entire graded set in my first response to this question you raised, right?

Set Registry
 

Posted By: <b>Richard Masson</b><p>There is no "Laffer Curve" for baseball cards- an optimal amount of wear on a card that makes it most desirable- virtually everyone wants as nice a copy as they can afford. A straight upward sloping line.<br />Price is the variable that makes it tricky.<br /><br />Availability means something too. Many sets don't come in high grade. A PSA 7 E107 would look bizarre in a group of SGC 10s and 20s. I would have no desire to own such a thing (at what it might cost). On the other hand, there are plenty of caramels graded 4s and 5s, and T206s graded 6s and 7s. I like to collect the most commonly available "nice" grades available.

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Posted By: <b>cmoking</b><p>"Why don't you address my fact about the purchase of a PSA 6 with paper loss for $5000? That is more of the jest of this thread. "<br /><br />The 'jest of this thread' was on a PSA 6 with paper loss that went for $5K? Did anyone else know that? What did I miss?

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Posted By: <b>Richard Masson</b><p>If someone bought a PSA 6 with paper loss, they screwed up, pure and simple.<br />They assumed a PSA 6 wouldn't have a flaw like that and didn't look closely at the card before they pulled the trigger. <br /><br />I don't know the exact card you are referring to, but is a real (w/o paper loss)PSA 6 worth 5k?

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Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>Everyone would love to own the best, but most people are realistic and will settle for what they can afford. Sadly, our society has twisted many peoples minds to the point where they will bankrupt themselve to kepp up with Jones, becuase they believe that is what every good American should do. Our society is also highly competive, which explains the existance and competativeness of the set registry.<br /><br />I used to fit both those descriptions and went thru a major life change that has put me on the other extreme of those American dreams. Personally, I'm much happier about my situation in life now than I ever was when I was making a ton of money and owned a lot of pretty things. I do give thanks for all the people that do try to live up to the American dream because it allows me to enjoy the things I do without having to go thru stress and agrivation. I also need these people to keep the American economy afloat, because if everyone started living like I do, the American economic system would collapse. I am the anti-consumer <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br />Jay<br><br>I like to sit outside, drink beer and yell at people. If I did this at home, I would be arrested. So, I go to baseball games and fit right in.

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Jay, we're going to have to send in a team from Vienna to examine you. Why do you think that people that spend a lot of money on cards do so to "keep up with the Joneses?" Who the hell even hangs out with anyone else on the Registry lists? You want to know why I spend what I do on cards? I do it because I WANT to and I CAN. Has nothing to do with peer pressure. Do you honestly think that people spend what they do on baseball cards because of wanting to keep up with their neighbors? I find it hilarious that the way you rationalize spending small amounts of cash on cards is that you wouldn't want to spend a lot of money because "keeping up with the Joneses" is too painful to bear. Dude, we live in America not North Korea. Believe it or not, I like working hard, being successful and spending ridiculous amounts of money on a hobby that I love. This has nothing to do with keeping up with anyone - because everyone I am close with who has cash does not buy cards. Why you feel the need to denigrate the fact that people who spend a lot of money on cards are somehow foolish - because that is exactly what you are saying. To twist Dice Clay's words a bit, how do you think people that make enough money to spend tons on cards got that way - by being dumb and lazy?

Set Registry
 

Posted By: <b>Lee Behrens</b><p>Jeff,<br /><br />thanks for answering my question rationally.<br /><br />As far as the T202 PSA 6 with paper loss on front for $5000, yes it does exist, It no longer is on ebay I should have copied the image. The 3 areas of paper loss were obvious and I don't know how they could be missed by the graders or the buyers.<br /><br />as far as the being the jest of the question yes it is. Transactions such as this are proof that people are buying the holder and not the card just to one up someone no matter the price. I want to try and understand why in the world you would be the holder and not the card?<br /><br />Lee

Set Registry
 

Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Lee,<br /><br />I think that in the pursuit of a completed Registry set occasionally one will buy a card that they don't particularly love just to slot it in the set. That being said, I don't think I'd spend more than a few bucks on a PSA 8 or 7 that was horribly centered or otherwise was clear didn't belong in that graded holder. To spend $30 on a PSA 6 with paper loss (I'd love to see that one by the way) is not, therefore, that big a deal in my eyes; however to spend big dollars and SMR value for a PSA 6 with paper loss is probably dopey - unless the SMR value is way too low.<br /><br />Jeff

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Posted By: <b>Al Crisafulli</b><p>Unfortunately I went to SmartCollector and searched the Ebay history for the past 120 days, and could not see any PSA 6 T202s that sold for more than $3800, and none had paper loss that I could see, so I guess the transaction in question happened more than 4 months ago.<br /><br />In any event, I see the point that you're trying to make, Lee, but I also think you're taking an exception and trying to make it the rule. There are any number of reasons why that particular card sold for as much as it did. Perhaps the person was a "cert buyer" looking to inflate their position on the registry with an overgraded card. Perhaps the person was careless and did not see the paper loss. Perhaps the buyer wanted to win the card, and set a very high snipe to ensure that they would - and someone else did the same thing, driving the price up extraordinarily high (I've had this happen to me, though never for $5K). Perhaps the buyer thought the paper loss was just a bad scan - who knows, maybe it even was.<br /><br />The reality is that it's not common to see a PSA 6 with paper loss, and it's less common to see someone overpay for one. So I think this is probably a relatively isolated incident.<br /><br />I see cards sell for what I think are outrageous prices almost every day. Other days, I see cards sell for much less than what I think they're worth. Sometimes they sell for just the right amount. I've been on the buying end of all three of those scenarios, as well.<br /><br />Bottom line is that while some of us might view a transaction as "overpaying", the winning bidder may be completely comfortable with it. Who cares? Why is it an issue? And who's to say it has anything whatsoever to do with the registry?<br /><br />-Al<br /><br />(Edited to address the correct Behrens)

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Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>Jeff, I wasn't talking about cards specifically, but the American cosumer mentality in general. If you don't think Keeping Up With Jones is part of the registry phenomana, then you are wrong. It's the same reason peole have to have bigger, better, faster, newer, no matter the object may be. It could be a house, car, watch or baseball cards. It's a deeply ingrained part of the American psyche.<br /><br />If I were to win the lottery, my collecting habits would not change. I would still buy low grade cards, I'd still drive my $500 vehicle from the junkyard, etc. I'm a bad American and refuse to buy into the "be a good consumer" BS. I'd don't need the best to make myself look better or to feel better about myself. Basically, Americans are rearranging the deck chairs on the Titantic while it's sinking.<br /><br />Jay<br><br>I like to sit outside, drink beer and yell at people. If I did this at home, I would be arrested. So, I go to baseball games and fit right in.

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Posted By: <b>warshawlaw</b><p>We seem to have a "class warfare" thread about once a year, usually a few months before the National. <br /><br />I've been on both sides of the aisle, so to speak, since I can "waste" a lot more money on cards than some but not even a fraction of what others spend. In other words, I share all of your perspectives. If you have the $$ to buy high end cards and it floats your boat, great. If you don't or simply prefer to collect the least expensive cards you can find, that's great too. Remember, it is just trading paper (money) for cardboard (cards) that none of us can take with us in the end. <br /><br />I will say this as to the registry concept. I am in a highly competitive "alpha male" profession. The LAST thing I want to do w/my leisure time is compete. I reject the registry conceptually for that reason. Just my preference. I prefer to use my card collecting as a chance to meet and spend time with good folks who share my passion for baseball and its history. If some folks want to compete with others over who has the "better" cards, fine, but I won't be playing along. <br /><br />Edited to say: hey, I'm #100!!!

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Posted By: <b>Rich klein</b><p>And we should never make fun of a collector because he/she seemingly spends too much on a card or because a collector only wants a "beater" because he/she are dedicated collectors trying to finish a set/collection as cheaply as possible.<br /><br />As long as we understand:<br /><br />Everyone will make a mistake<br /><br />Not everyone can afford all the cards/collectibles they want<br /><br />No one should make fun of someone for their collecting pursuit<br /><br />We'll all have a happier board and Leon and myself won't have anything to talk about when we do lunch in the near future <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br />Rich

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Posted By: <b>Spencer Wolff</b><p> A lot of these prewar sets, and others I'm sure, are tough to do with help, maybe impossible without it. Some cards never hit ebay or major auctions. Some cards go from collector to collector, and if you don't know other collectors who share your particular interest, then you may miss out. Or another way, you may come across something that you like, but someone else may love it, and it's nice to pass something on to someone who is really passionate about what they are doing. Both of which are more difficult to do without the registry. I think those guys who spend the big bucks, it's not just an investment, they love it. Otherwise, they would just buy rental property or something. <br /><br /> As for T206collectors thoughts on SGC being so much better than PSA, did anyone see the SGC 50/4 Joe Jackson '14 Cracker Jack on ebay? Listed several times over several months for $11,500. The one with a completely rounded lower left corner! Did anyone see the PSA 4 Jackson on ebay that just sold for $13,300? One of those was VG-EX, and it wasn't in the SGC holder. The SGC would be a 3 if holdered with PSA, and an average 3 at that. I have had 20+ SGC cards come back from PSA without crossing because they were 'miss graded' by SGC. So, SGC doesn't cross easily to PSA, similar to your stated problem with crossing PSA to SGC. Sometimes mistakes are made.

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Posted By: <b>T206Collector</b><p>Was this the 1914 Cracker Jack you were talking about?<br /><br /><img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1145063268.JPG">

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Posted By: <b>Spencer</b><p>I'm guessing you are attempting to take a shot at me. But good point, because the Jackson in an SGC 50/4 looks the same as this Wagner PSA 3 you show that I just bought. And this Wagner is not a good 3, lower end for sure, if it were a better looking 3, it would have gone for $4,500 and not the $3,000 I spent. So, I'm happy..Whoopeee.

Set Registry
 

Posted By: <b>steve yawitz</b><p>...but I thought I'd chime in as one who's gone from being very enthusiastic about PSA's registry - mainly with hockey cards, I have to note - to thinking seriously about joining the Slab Liberation Army. <br /><br />I was never insanely competitive with building sets but I did like to have cards that were as nice as I could afford. Plus registries do a fabulous job of tapping into collectors' neurotic side. (Mine is considerable.) And having a few sets listed was a good way to make some connections both for card deals and for just shootin' the breeze. (For what it's worth, I haven't noticed that as much in baseball as in hockey.)<br /><br />Over time, though, it just seemed increasingly absurd to pay three to four times the price of a PSA 7 for a PSA 8 when the 8 might just be marginally better looking than the 7. Or not as appealing in a few cases. Coupled with my growing cynicism toward the grading industry in general, that realization spelled the end of collecting high-grade post-war cards for me.<br /><br />I still have a couple of nice hockey sets from 1910 and 1923 listed and was even pretty active with one of them recently, but most of my hobby time and money has been devoted to prewar baseball over the last year. Almost all of it has either been or has wound up in PSA holders, but I'm at the point where it just seems foolish to conintue with PSA and with grading in general.<br /><br />I doubt that PSA's ability to detect trimmed or altered cards is markedly better than my own. My grading is at least as consistent as theirs and takes into account my idiosyncratic preferences. And my ability to identify players and cards can't be any less accurate than theirs. So I guess I'm basically paying a premium for graded cards and paying to have cards graded so that I can make use of an online checklist and use PSA as an image hosting service. It very recently dawned on me that I could do that much more cheaply with Excel and a site like imagevent.com. <br /><br />Now if I can just overcome inertia.

Set Registry
 

Posted By: <b>warshawlaw</b><p>Spencer: it is hard to say whether the SGC cards did not cross to PSA because they were "misgraded" or because they were in SGC holders. The only way to tell would be to crack them and send them in raw. I personally do not trust PSA to be objective as to another service's holders. <br /><br />Prices: I agree with the poster who refuses to spend mega bucks on an 8 common. There is a set of 1948 Leaf boxing in Mastro that is selling for 10X the price of a normal nice set because it is the #1 registry set. That's a lot of extra value allocated to a registry position. The market obviously exists; to say otherwise is simply wrong, but I prefer my nice average 5.5 set that cost well under 2K<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>Frank Wakefield</b><p>Right on, Steve Yawitz!!!! Bust 'em out!

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Posted By: <b>Steve</b><p>As always Yawie makes alot of sense. However, he did not state two obvious reasons why it is still beneficial to have cards graded. One would be the protection value the slab affords with the other being resale. It is just a plain fact in the internet age that if you want to sell these cards then graded is the way to go.<br /><br />JMO<br /><br />Steve

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Posted By: <b>steve yawitz</b><p>...but I think the protection angle is overstated. I can't recall really mangling a card since the time in maybe '87 or so when I accidentally kneeled on an '85 Fleer Eric Davis rookie. Not saying it hasn't happened since that fateful day when I wrecked my big card show acquisition, but I'd be willing to bet that PSA has inflicted at least as much wear on my cards as I have in the six years that I've been submitting.<br /><br />The value question is admittedly trickier for me. The nice thing about collecting PSA 1-4 prewar stuff - with the occasional splurging on a 5 - is that I feel most of the "value" is a function of the cardboard itself and not the plastic and label. If I had cracked out my '53 Parkhurst set before selling it, I would've taken a bath; If I were to crack out my modest T206 collection before selling it, I'm guessing that the realized prices would only be slightly lower than what they would be if I were to sell them graded - say the cost of the grading give or take a few bucks. <br /><br />On my PSA 5's and on some of my E cards the disparity would probably be more, so if I do join Mr. Wakefield in the Slab Liberation Army, I might first sell those cards. I dunno yet. I feel like I'm at a crossroads of sorts and am still trying to figure out what makes the most sense.<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>Josh K.</b><p>Spencer,<br /><br />I dont want to take shots and I dont want to continue the sgc vs. psa who is better debate, but I have got to say, that wagner is not a low end 3. Any card that actually has a piece of the card torn off is a 1 or 1.5 at best. Big difference in my book b/t a rounded corner and a missing corner. For example, as much as I would have liked a 20 on this card, I think the grade is correct:<br /><br /><img src="http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e211/jkrasner2/graded_kelly.jpg"><br /><br />Regardless, the wagner is still a nice card and you should be happy with it.

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Posted By: <b>Spencer Wolff</b><p>Warsharlaw- I hear you, I send a lot of raw cards in as well, some grade what I thought, some don't. My point was in response to t206collectors statement of SGC being better than PSA, this being the case because he tries to cross PSA cards to SGC and they don't cross, they missgrade. So, your logic of PSA not crossing SGC out of spite, perhaps it works the same the other way, SGC doesn't cross PSA out of spite.<br /> My purpose of writing initially, was to say that I have similar problems crossing SGC to PSA as he does crossing PSA to SGC. It works the same for both sides. That's it. <br /> As for a card's corner being rounded or missing a piece, how does a cracker jack on such thin stock, have one perfectly rounded corner with three others being square? They break, they don't round perfectly, like that SGC 50/4 Jackson. I'm not alone among CJ collectors, that some rounded corners on '14 CJ's are altered. Pieces break off, they don't become perfectly rounded, unless someone rounds off the area where the piece broke off. And I think there is a difference between a piece missing in the border and one that extends into the the actual picture of the card. Just my opinion, not an argument, collecting cards is fun, and we all have different opinions, and it's good to share them.<br />