T210 Joe Jackson on EBay!
 

Posted By: <b>Hal Lewis</b><p>From Ebay:<br /><br />When can a seller lower the reserve price?<br /><br />Before the item has received bids, the seller can add, remove, or modify the reserve price at any time during the active listing. A seller can also lower the reserve price any time prior to 12 hours before the listing is scheduled to end, even if the item has received bids. If the reserve price has been met, the seller will no longer be able to lower the reserve price because the item is assumed to be selling for more than the reserve. <br /><br /><br />What happens when the price is lowered?<br /><br />If there are bidders on the item, all bidders will receive an email that notifies them of the price change. Bidders' My eBay pages, and the item page, will also show the price has been lowered. <br /><br /><br />Will bidders know the new price?<br /><br />All bidders will not be told the new reserve price; however, if a seller lowers the reserve price below the high bidder's maximum bid, the lower reserve price will be revealed to the high bidder via email. The high bidders' maximum bid will be lowered to $1.00 below the new reserve. This allows the bidder to confirm their interest in the item by bidding again, since the next bid placed will meet the reserve. <br /><br /><br />Why does eBay need to lower the maximum bid?<br /><br />The maximum bid is lowered if the new reserve price is below the maximum bid. This is done to allow the high bidder to confirm interest in the item. The high bidder may have purchased another item when their original high bid did not meet the reserve price. <br /><br /><br />How many times can the price be lowered?<br /><br />A seller can lower the reserve price as many times as they like, as long as the reserve price has not been met. <br /><br /><br />If the reserve price is lowered and the bidder doesn't bid again, is the bidder still bound to buy the item?<br /><br />No. To purchase the item, the bidder must either bid again at or above the new reserve price. <br /><br /><br />Can the reserve price be lowered in any category?<br /><br />Yes. <br /><br /><br />Can Second Chance Offer still be used on the listing after the reserve price is lowered?<br /><br />Yes. The rules for Second Chance offer are not changed by lowering the reserve price<br />

T210 Joe Jackson on EBay!
 

Posted By: <b>Hal Lewis</b><p>Corey:<br /><br />The reserve can be lowered... but a bidder cannot be "trapped" into buying it.<br /><br />Their bid is also lowered, and they are given another chance to top the reserve if they wish to do so.<br /><br />

T210 Joe Jackson on EBay!
 

Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>So that means that if the seller lowered the reserve right now to 140K, the bidder who placed the bid of 146K is not obligated to buy the card unless he bids again? Why would he bid again, and why wouldn't he take the card since he was prepared to pay above 140K anyway? If he wasn't bidding in good faith but placing bids just because he already knew the reserve, there should be some penalty involved.

T210 Joe Jackson on EBay!
 

Posted By: <b>Corey R. Shanus</b><p>Ebay's rule does make sense. That being said, then I think Jay hit it right on the head. Any bid placed on an item by someone who knows the item's reserve is irrelevant to determining market value. And since the reserve on the T210 Jackson has been disclosed, I for one won't regard any bidding on it to be indicative of its market value until the reserve has been met.

T210 Joe Jackson on EBay!
 

Posted By: <b>Corey R. Shanus</b><p>presumably the seller, seeing the $146K bid, would not at that point lower the reserve below $146K.

T210 Joe Jackson on EBay!
 

Posted By: <b>Marc S.</b><p>&lt;&lt;If he wasn't bidding in good faith but placing bids just because he already knew the reserve, there should be some penalty involved.&gt;&gt;<br /><br />Yes - that would not be bidding in good faith. But nor would it be selling in good faith if the seller indicates there is a reserve on a card but then changes that reserve to match outstanding bids.<br /><br />~ms

T210 Joe Jackson on EBay!
 

Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Why not? What if the seller had a change of heart and decided that $146K was an acceptable offer, not to mention there is a week left and the bid is likely to go higher. Why shouldn't the buyer be bound to his bid? If you offered me $146K for a Jackson on Monday and I refused, then called you on Tuesday and said I thought it over and I accept, wouldn't you be ethically obligated to buy it, or at the very least more than happy that I accepted?

T210 Joe Jackson on EBay!
 

Posted By: <b>Hal Lewis</b><p>Corey and Barry:<br /><br />What if the seller has ALREADY lowered the reserve on the item to something like $150,000k??<br /><br />If someone thinks that the Reserve is still $224,000 and bids OVER the new Reserve (thinking that they will still be below the $224k)...<br /><br />THEN they would be forced to buy the item!<br /><br />SO... the BIG question is... how will ANYONE know from looking at the auction on EBay whether or not the reserve has been lowered?<br /><br />I don't think it shows up on the Ebay auction if this happens. I think maybe the only way it is known is if they send e-mails to the high bidders?<br /><br />Anyone who wants to "be cool" and bid $223,000 on the card is at BIG RISK of exceeding the NEW reserve (if there is one).

T210 Joe Jackson on EBay!
 

Posted By: <b>Hal Lewis</b><p>Barry:<br /><br />To answer your question from a legal standpoint:<br /><br />NO, if you make an offer to someone and they expressly reject it... then the offer is automatically "off the table" and can never be accepted in the future unless and until it is RE-offered.

T210 Joe Jackson on EBay!
 

Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>You should only bid if you want to buy it at that price. If the bidder assumes the reserve is $225K, and just to be a big shot places a bid of $151K, and then finds out the minimum was lowered to $150K, he better either get out his checkbook, hope he gets topped, or hire a lawyer, because guess what- he's legally obligated to buy it, and he never should have placed a wise guy bid in the first place.

T210 Joe Jackson on EBay!
 

Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Hal- fair enough in the private offer scenario, but if your offer was reconsidered and you pass, how serious was that first offer?

T210 Joe Jackson on EBay!
 

Posted By: <b>Marc S.</b><p>It depends. When there is a high reserve on a card on Ebay - I often put in a bid to track the item. Not because I want it at that price, but because I want it to show up in My Ebay - and not just on the "Watch" heading, which I don't see much.<br /><br />I was high bidder at $50,100- for a few moments on this T210 Jackson. I would certainly be happy to buy it at that price - but given the structure of the auction, I would not be <i>obligated</i> to buy it at that price. I don't have too much concern for the bidders here - as the seller understand the situation of reserve auctions. If the reserve is not met - that's it. <br /><br />Barry - if you follow your logic, if the reserve is not met, and one second after the auction ends the seller offers it to the high bidder at their bid price, the bidder should be obligated to purchase. But I don't think it should be that way - and my experience [as both a buyer and a seller] is that those second-chance offers on reserve auctions are not executed &gt;50% of the time.

T210 Joe Jackson on EBay!
 

Posted By: <b>Corey R. Shanus</b><p>I was curious as to how the $224K reserve was discovered. What I was told was that a bidder has a right immediately after entering a bid to retract the bid. Assuming that is correct, then even if the seller has lowered the reserve to $150K, then a bidder in bad faith bidding above that number would still be allowed to retract the bid. So, bad faith bidding in that scenario would seem to carry no risk at all.

T210 Joe Jackson on EBay!
 

Posted By: <b>Hal Lewis</b><p>True Corey.<br /><br />If someone is out to "circumvent" the rules, they could do it that way as well.<br /><br />Overbid, see what the reserve is... then immediately withdraw the overbid as "mistaken amount" and immediately bid a dollar below the reserve.<br /><br />Sucks, but it can be done.<br /><br />Which is why you are correct in saying that these bids are USELESS in determining the real value of the card UNLESS it actually sells.

T210 Joe Jackson on EBay!
 

Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Marc- As an auctioneer myself who is currently running an auction I expect anyone who places a bid to honor it. Ebay works differently as there is clearly a reserve but if you place a bid at the last second and the seller says "O.K. I accept it" then the bidder should be prepared to pay. Second chance offers occur after the auction, and ebay rules allow you to accept or reject the second chance (not to mention that many of the second chances are scams).

T210 Joe Jackson on EBay!
 

Posted By: <b>Elliot</b><p>When the reserve is lowered all bidders are notified of the change in the reserve. Since none of the posters on this thread who said they bid have been notified then we know that the reserve has not been lowered from it's original amount. Also, the bid of $150,100 could actually be $1 below the reserve amount, all we know is that it is one increment or less over the next highest bid. In any event, I certainly agree that any information that one derives from a reserve auction on ebay that does not meet reserve, is not full and complete.

T210 Joe Jackson on EBay!
 

Posted By: <b>Brian H (misunderestimated)</b><p>My own selfish problem with the private auction is that it takes a lot of the "fun" out of watchin the auction... Like many others -- I suppose -- I watch items I have no interest in buying (at least at market price) to see who wins and who bids how much. The private auction denies me this somewhat guilty pleasure....

T210 Joe Jackson on EBay!
 

Posted By: <b>Julie Vognar</b><p>224,000,--and it looks to me like he wants to sell the card, and will!

T210 Joe Jackson on EBay!
 

Posted By: <b>David Vargha</b><p>Okay . . . It looks like Hal already addressed this above.<br /><br />DavidVargha@hotmail.com

T210 Joe Jackson on EBay!
 

Posted By: <b>Judge Dred (Fred)</b><p>I couldn't imagine that the seller could drop the reserve low enough to make the highest bidder an automatic "winning bid". That just wouldn't be right. Yes, if you bid that much and the reserve was met at the time the bid was entered then you are obligated to buy the lot. But what if you bid on something else based on the fact that you were not able to purchase the other lot (reserve not met) and you were the high bidder and potential winner of that lot? It just wouldn't be right. This leads me to something else.<br /><br />Recently, I had the second highest bid on a lot with no reserve. My bid was never the high bid, I was outbid by proxy when I made my bid but I did have the second highest bid. The high bidder removed his bid a few days after his high bid was placed. This made me the high bidder. I was then obligated to pay the final price if I were to win the lot. I would have purchased the lot had I won but I was outbid. <br /><br />In any case does that seem right? I was never the high bidder but after someone removed there bid I was made the high bidder and obligated to purchase the lot. What would have happened if I BIN'd something else for a few grand because I thought I was never the high bidder on the other lot and the auction ended with me the high bidder on the lot (that I was not the high bidder until someone withdrew their bid)? Lets put this into perspective, if a few grand would have strapped me then being high bidder on the other auction would have been detrimental to my pocket book. It wouldn't have seemed fair but I guess that's a possibility on ebay. Sound confusing?

T210 Joe Jackson on EBay!
 

Posted By: <b>Jim Clarke</b><p>Two things will happen:<br /><br />1. Someone will bid higher and if reserve is met just retract bid which Ebay allows you to do.. Say you key in 152,011 and you really ment 152,010. That is all someone would have to do to not be responsible.<br /><br />2. The item will be taken off Ebay before it closes to avoid all those listing fees... (black eye for the seller though)<br /><br /><br />The one from Lipset's auction is much nicer than this one by far. <br /><br /><br />

T210 Joe Jackson on EBay!
 

Posted By: <b>Rick</b><p>but its clearly shorter...

T210 Joe Jackson on EBay!
 

Posted By: <b>Corey R. Shanus</b><p>Fred, what you describe does sound unfair. However, based on ebay's rules on retracting bids, I would think that that situation would not happen. If a bidder retracts a bid because he entered the wrong amount, he is supposed to IMMEDIATELY enter the correct bid. Accordingly, if he retracts the bid a few days later as you describe, there must have been another basis for the retraction. My guess is that the other basis (e.g., change in item description) would also allow you to retract your bid. However, I agree with you that the situation would be very unfair to you if, once the other bidder had retracted his bid, you were not allowed to retract your's. Such an outcome would be inconsistent with the rationale behind allowing a bidder to reaffirm his bid in the event the seller lowered the reserve to below that bidder's previous bid.

T210 Joe Jackson on EBay!
 

Posted By: <b>Hal Lewis</b><p>The Reserve HAS BEEN LOWERED.<br /><br />I just got my e-mail.<br /><br />Like Julie said, it is now somewhere between $175k and $224k.