Cobb vs. Wagner
 

Posted By: <b>Ted Zanidakisc</b><p>GIL<br /><br />First, I will tell you that I followed your Giants very closely in the '50s.<br />I recall very well seeing Bobby Thomson's "Shot Heard Around the World" in<br />1951. One of the most exciting games I went as a kid was at Ebbetts Field,<br />Sept. 1951, to see the Giants comeback and beat the Dodgers 2 - 1.<br /><br />And, yes, I clearly recall Mays' fantastic catch off Wertz's bat in '54; and,<br />his throw which I believe doubled-up a Clev. baserunner. And, who can forget<br />Dusty Rhodes performance, a relatively unknown player.<br /><br />Unlike you, though, I try not to let my emotions get in the way of the facts.<br />You keep putting Mantle down by bringing up Berra. Well, their statistics show<br />that they had the same RBI/AB ratio of approximately 5.4; and, in my lifetime<br />Mantle & Berra produced one of the greatest 1 - 2 punches in the game.<br /><br />You talk about "pressure" experienced by certain ballplayers in the late '40s<br />an throughout the '50s. Well, lets go back to the '30s with Jessie Owens and<br />Mack Robinson (Jackie's older brother) competing in the 1936 Olympics. Let's<br />talk about Joe Louis fighting Max Schmelling and a field of contenders that<br />were mainly white.<br /><br />Just like Adam W. brought to your attention in another thread, Gil you have to<br />check the facts before you argue a given topic. You put Mantle down for having<br />a .257 BA in WS play (12 seasons), yet Mays had only .239 in only 4 WS. Mantle<br />from 1952 to 1960 batted .300 in WS play. And, speaking about .300 BA, Mays'<br />lifetime BA = .302 and Mantle's = .298. Most would say there's not much of a<br />difference there to argue over, unless you are some kind of "nit-picking" lawyer?<br /><br />And, I will close by asking you how many times you attended a game at Yankee<br />Stadium during the 1950's ?<br /><br /><br />

Cobb vs. Wagner
 

Posted By: <b>Anonymous</b><p>I want to say one thing about Mantle and I apologize if it's been said. But he was the fastest guy I have ever seen. I have been watching baseball games for 25 years live and on TV and I have only been able to watch Mantle in taped games.<br /><br />As you watch so many games you get used to that TV angle from behind homeplate. As you watch more games you see many guys ground out to first base...(stay with me here)...and you gradually become accustomed to where a batter-runner should be in relation to first base after the firstbaseman fields the grounder, jogs over and touches first base with his foot.<br /><br />Usually the guy is half to three-quarters down the line by the time all that happens. Faster guys get a bit closer and loafers like Belle and Bonds well - they hardly run.<br /><br />Anyway, I was watching a taped version of Game 7 of the 1952 World Series between Dodgers and Yankees about 6 months ago. Mantle gets up to bat from the left side and after a few pitches he hits a routine grounder to first. The "behind homeplate angle" shows Hodges field it cleanly and while jogging over to first base to touch it - suddenly from the bottom of the screen comes Mantle full force and barreling to first. Now Hodges had merely fielded the grounder and jogged over to first and by the time Hodges touches first, Mantle is like 10 feet from the bag!<br /><br />I absoultely couldn't believe it. I sat in my living room, jaw dropped, and watched it four more times. Quite frankly, I have no idea how it was possible for Mantle to get from home plate to that spot in that short amount of time. I have never seen anybody get to that point in the baseline on that play ever and I do not think I ever will again. It was unbelievable. Truly. I think it's impossible. But I saw it!<br /><br />That confirmed to me the legend of how fast this guy was when he first came up - 3.12 home to first is SICK.<br /><br />Now factor that in to the fact he hit 500 foot homers BEFORE the age of steroids and you have yourself one heckuva freak of nature.

Cobb vs. Wagner
 

Posted By: <b>pete</b><p>glenn, its a start<br />pete-<br /><br />(that pix is pretty funny....)

Cobb vs. Wagner
 

Posted By: <b>identify7</b><p>Well Ted, I respect your opinion on Mantle, even if mine differs. I intend no slight on Mantle attributable to the competence of Berra. Similarly irrelevant are the pressures experienced by black athletes in other sports.<br /><br />That point was directed toward the pressures Mantle faced as the new Yankee hero following Joe D., and how that pressure, in baseball, compared to the pressures in baseball experienced by his black peers, at that time.<br /><br />Additionally irrelevant to my post in this thread are the observations I shared on a different subject in a different thread! These comments related to facts which I researched applicable to Babe Ruth and Lefty O'Doul. Specifically in that thread, I speculated about Ruth's issuance of more walks than strikeouts during the two years preceeding his trade to the Yankees, and his general continuance of this issuance of more walks than strikeouts after joining the Yanks. Ted, realistically you can not think that I did not research that obscure observation. I threw it out to evoke comment realizing that the speculation of a causative factor in Ruth's transition to a position player was extremely weak. And I got the comment which was deserved.<br /><br />And Ted, if I put Mantle down for having a WS .257 average, maybe he deserves it. It is not I who stated: "And, especially effective during World Series play as his numbers testify:" with regard to Mantle's performance.<br /><br />Whether there is a difference between a .300 hitter and one who does not make the grade, between a 500+ HR club member and one who falls short, or a pitcher who gets 300 wins or almost does, is as important as each fan makes it.<br /><br />I think the truth of the matter on this subject Ted, is you grew up as a Yankee fan and I did exactly the opposite. I believe that both of our views are a little clouded. I know that it amazes me that you can look at the statistics, recall the play and still think that Mantle is in the league with one of the all time greats.<br /><br />Look at the line ups that our fellow board members have selected for their all time teams, Ted. How many chose Mantle; how many chose Mays? Look at mine. I chose Williams.<br /><br />It has been an interesting debate Ted, thank you. You can have the last post if you want it. <br /><br />Comments regarding nit-picking, profession identification and how many ballgames I attended as a youth, will go unanswered unless you can justify their relevance.<br /><br />Edited to add: Yes AP13, Mantle certainly was fast. And I heard it said that Mays wore hats too big for him, simply to dramatize his running ability (by having the hat fly off). It is too bad that Mantle's legs did not stay healthy. But he certainly was still a heck of a ballplayer - and a man for enduring the daily treatments just so he could go out and play. This doesn't sound like someone who would choke in the clutch. Ya never know.

Cobb vs. Wagner
 

Posted By: <b>Ted Zanidakisc</b><p>GIL<br /><br />I asked you a very simple (to answer) and very straight forward question,<br />and you refuse to answer it. That tells me all I want to know regarding any<br />continuing meaningful discussion with you on this subject.<br /><br />AP13<br /><br />I had a great conversation with Richie Ashburn about 10 years ago. I had him<br />sign a color picture of him laying down a drag bunt. And, I asked him if his<br />3.0 seconds time running to 1st Base was the fastest in the Majors. He very<br />graciously replied....NO....and said the following: "The Sporting News press<br />timed him and Mickey Mantle (batting lefty) over and over again throughout<br />the '50s; and, they consistently tied at 3.0 secs. getting to 1st base".<br /><br />Most have forgotten how versatile Mantle was; everyone remembers his 565 ft.<br />homers at Griffith Park, in Washington (a 1959 Topps card depicts this). But,<br />he was also a pretty darn good bunter when his team just needed a hit.

Cobb vs. Wagner
 

Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>Just some observations from a outsider looking in on the ted-Gil debate. Ted, you obviously are a dyed in the wool Yankees fan. No amount of proof will ever change your mind when it comes to anything involving your beloved Yankees. Gil, anObviously ardent Giants fans, seems to be a more open minded, but not a whole lot more. Now combine that with an intercity rivalry and you get a debate that no one is going to win and simply degenerate into name calling, which Ted resorted to. Gil did the right and hopefully walked away from this without responding anymore. Neither of you is going to convince the other of anything when it comes to Giants and Yankees.<br /><br />Jay<br><br>My place is full of valuable, worthless junk.

Cobb vs. Wagner
 

Posted By: <b>Ted Zanidakisc</b><p>Give me one example where I resorted to name calling ?<br /><br />Yes,we are both biased, but I can back up my statements with real experiences<br />from many games I saw as a kid at Yankee Stadium during the '50s. And, I do<br />not care whether you believe me or not, but my BaseBall recollectios of those<br />years are very clear. Furthermore, I still have many game Programs which I<br />scored. <br /><br />You don't really know me; but, I guess you know Gil. So I can understand why<br />you side with him. However, he wants to debate with me, and I simply ask him<br />how many times he actually attended Yankee games during Mantle's career; and<br />he refuses to answer. Then, its obvious to me that he does not have the facts <br />to support many of his claims.<br /><br />I have always liked Mays, although I was at the old Polo Grounds once as a kid<br />I certainly would not claim to know as much about Mays as Gil thinks he knows<br />about Mantle.

Cobb vs. Wagner
 

Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>Actually, I don't know either one of you outside of your names on the board. The name calling came in when with you lawayer reference. I have no idea if Gil is lawyers, none the less, an uncalled for remark. <br /><br />I don't dismiss your experiences, but I've learned one thing over the years, trying to debate a passionate and dyed in the wool fan is an impossibility becuase that person is absolutely set in their ways and no amount of evidence is going to convince them that they are wrong about their favorite player/team. And when you put 2 polar opposites like you two, no one is going to win the argument is it is most likely going to lead to animosity between the two parties. Just my view on the situtaiton.<br /><br />Jay<br><br>My place is full of valuable, worthless junk.

Cobb vs. Wagner
 

Posted By: <b>Glenn</b><p>Indeed. Barring someone who was a fan of and saw all of the greats of the game in person, you'll only get true objectivity from someone who was a fan of and saw none of them.

Cobb vs. Wagner
 

Posted By: <b>Ted Zanidakis</b><p>I fully agree with your earlier comment that raw RBI stats.do not necessarily<br />indicate how "clutch" a player was. But since you are a SABR dude, check this<br />out. The actual facts tell the real story regarding Mantle's W.S. performance:<br /><br />1952.....AB = 29.....H = 10....BA = .345.....R = 5.....RBI = 3.....HR = 2<br />.....1st HR wins Game 6..........2nd HR wins game 7<br /><br />1953.....AB = 24.....H = 5.....BA = .208.....R = 2.....RBI = 7.....HR = 2<br />.....1st HR wins Game 2.........2nd HR (grand slam) wins Game 5<br /><br />1956.....AB = 24.....H = 6.....BA = .250.....R = 6.....RBI = 4.....HR = 3<br />.....3rd HR only score in Game 5 (perfect game, no-hitter)<br /><br />1960.....AB = 25.....H = 10....BA = .400.....R = 8.....RBI = 11....HR = 3<br />.....1st & 2nd HRs (5-RBIs) spark rally to win Game 2<br /><br />This information is accurate (from BB Encyc.) and my original scored programs.<br />I've just shown 4 World Series (for comparison), since Mays was in only four<br />and batted .239. Mantle, of course was in 12 W. S. and batted .259; so, numbers<br />sometimes do not tell the whole story.<br /><br />From your statement, I sense you seem to have a problem with me. Otherwise you<br />wouldn't have interpreted my "nit-picking lawyer" comment as a derogatory one.<br />It was just a simple expression, and I feel an appropriate one, to the ridiculous<br />hair-splitting comment regarding Mays' and Mantle's lifetime BA. Your accusation<br />was out of line. You have to lighten up....Jay.<br /><br />You obviously know Mark Macrae, talk with him. Mark and I have been best friends<br />since March 1983 when I first set up at the Willow Grove (Philly) Show.<br /><br />From a Vietnam era US Air Force guy to a US Navy guy, have a great July 4th. <br /> <br /> <br /><br /><br />

Cobb vs. Wagner
 

Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>Ted, I don't have a problem a with you. I don't really take anything personal here. The only problem I have is blind homerism (no, that's not a Simpsons things :-p) <br /><br />Cherry picking Mantle's performance in the WS doesn't prove his greatness. It shows his mortality. You cite 4 game from 12 series. This means he played a minimum of 48 games. He had a major impact on 4 games and and little or none in 44. This means he disaapeared 11 times out of 12. I know this isn't accurate, but you get my drift. It's the just the cynic in me. I do the same thing with ads. If they making some wild claim, I ask myself, what are they really hiding with this wild claim.<br /><br />Mantle was obviously a great talent, but if you swapped cities and circumstances, there would a legion of rabid MAntle fans instead of Mantle fans. Much of a players popularity and legend has to do with who they play for and how well that ream does. A single player, no matter how great, cannot carry a team. <br /><br />Jay<br /><br />My place is full of valuable, worthless junk.