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Posted By: <b>ramram</b><p>I can fully agree with that. I think restoring cards, images, etc. is a great thing. It would be nice, however, if the restorations were noted. Maybe that's the next "thing". Slabing restored cards with some form of notations as to the work done on them.
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Posted By: <b>Todd (nolemmings)</b><p>and possibly even unique, I do not buy into the theory that the restoration or cleaning do not weigh materially in the final price. Logic dictates otherwise, for why would Mastro have it professionally restored/cleaned/de-acidfied/whatever if the final bid were largely unaffected.<br /><br />I tend to agree with PASJD that Mastro is acting only after it got "caught", and its conduct is not sterling by any means with regard to this item. Moreover, while there is always the buyer beware, educate yourself, ask questions argument out there, that does not fully absolve Mastro either, at least if they truly want anyone to believe that "highly reputable" "bid with confidence" mantra they lay out for the public.<br /><br />
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Posted By: <b>PASJD</b><p>If it didn't affect the value, why would Mastro BOTH do whatever he did to the card AND then not disclose it? I readily admit I don't know as much as many of the folks on this Board, but the whole thing just rubs me the wrong way and raises a number of red flags.
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Posted By: <b>Hal Lewis</b><p>Sadly, I agree.<br /><br />Here would have been a GREAT CHANCE for Mastro to HELP the hobby by showing BOTH images (before and after) and letting EVERYONE know forever (since most people keep the catalogs) that the card had been very nicely and professionally restored.<br /><br />
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Posted By: <b>petecld</b><p>Hal,<br /><br />"Do they just dip the whole card into something... or what?"<br /><br />You can dip the item into a tank or there are spray forms available.<br /><br />What causes paper to yellow and turn brittle are the natural acids in the paper. Treating an item slows the aging process. Cheaoer paper (newspapres) have a higher acid content and yellow faster. I think david mentioned in the past to leave a newspaper out in the sun a doy or two and see how much the paper changes. Deacidifying might brighten an item over all but it is not a cleaner. It doesn't treat stains, it just reacts to the acid in the paper. This process is used by libraries, museums, etc. and is well accepted.<br /><br />The item isn't messed up and you probably would never know the difference if you saw a treated card. Unlike bleaching, this treatment doesn't emit a stong odor.<br />Ê<br /><br />Ê<br /><br />PASJD,<br /><br />I don't know if it is a process you want to try yourself. <br /><br />"Sounds to me like stabilization might be a good substitute for people who don't take to slabs."<br /><br />Yes, I feel it is. It is more commonly done to books, comic books, some prints, and newspapers anything on thin cheaper media but doing it to a Baseball card won't hurt it.<br /><br />
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Posted By: <b>Hal Lewis</b><p>But my understanding is that you can only "stabilize" and "deacidify" PAPER products...<br /><br />but NOT photographs!!<br /><br /><img src="/images/sad.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br />Accordingly, it is entirely possible that the photograph was removed from the cardboard and that the cardboard was dipped into the formula by itself.<br /><br />Likewise, the photograph itself may have been emersed into some sort of agent (perhaps bleached with something like a copper chloride solution or a potassium permanganate solution) and then REDEVEVLOPED.<br /><br />No, I didn't just make this all up. <br /><br /><img src="/images/wink.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br />ONCE AGAIN ... I am NOT saying that any of this is "wrong"...<br /><br />I just wish that Mastro would have told everyone about the process and walked us through it.<br /><br /><img src="/images/sad.gif" height=14 width=14>
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Posted By: <b>Julie</b><p>Momentarily returning to the original question of when is a card a card, what about Mastro 2099, the photograph, later a Harper's woodcut, of the 1882 Porovidence Grays with both Wrights, Radbourne and (a very young) Ward? Could you say, Hal, that this photo was made to promote a team, and was therefore a card?
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Posted By: <b>Kevin Cummings</b><p>Rob and Hal:<br /><br />I like a lot of what you've said.<br /><br />I think this all comes down to provenance and honesty. <br /><br />I was speaking to a fellow collector this morning who also likened this issue to vintage automobiles. Perhaps some of you think that comparison is a stretch, but people restore autos all the time and that makes them <b><u>more</u></b> valuable, not less valuable. I mean, come on.....would you rather have a rusted out 1968 Barracuda or a restored one?<br /><br />I think Mastro could have done a more complete disclosure on what was done to the card to "pretty it up," but the real issue will be for the new owner to fess up to a potential buyer what has been done to the card.<br /><br />Given the revised description, if the new owner <b><u>never </u></b> sells the card, I think they will be happy with what they've bought or they they would not have plunked down the money to begin with.<br /><br />Kevin <br /><br />
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Posted By: <b>george counter</b><p>Very interesting the fact that Mr. Miller knew about the restoration process conduced by mastronet, and he didn't ask for a description change when auction went live.<br />Ethics? <br /><br />Mastronet must show the original scan along the new one.<br />I don't think a description change will solve the issue here.<br /><br />Another interesting thing is the way he used to market the Keeler cabinet by starting a common thread using CAPS and a flashy title.<br />If you go back and check Mr. Miller's threads in/near auction season, you'll find the same pattern.<br /><br />No more hidden agendas please! (Looks like it wasn't all that hidden to some of the regulars here)<br /><br />I don't mind buying restored items, in fact I'm in favor most of the times., but full disclosure is a must.<br /><br />Where is Mr. Plancich from C.A.R.D.S?<br />Would love to read his comments.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br />
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Posted By: <b>DD</b><p>Kevin,<br />Good point at new owner. Shouldn't Mastro be considered the new owner at this time? True, the card is on consignment, but being the most well known auction in the hobby, don't you think he could also lead the way on disclosing information on how a card was restored?
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Posted By: <b>Hal Lewis</b><p>Kevin:<br /><br />The big problem is that unless the new buyer is a reader of THIS website...<br /><br />the new buyer WON'T KNOW what has been done to the card...<br /><br />so he woudn't be able to disclose anything even if he wanted to.<br /><br /><img src="/images/sad.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br />This is why I thought Mastro should have just posted BOTH photos and not even APPEAR to be hiding anything.<br /><br />The work that was done was professional, and Mastro should be PROUD to showcase the wonderful craftsmanship associated with the restoration.
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Posted By: <b>Hal Lewis</b><p>And JULIE...<br /><br />NO, that 1882 team composite is NOT a baseball card.<br /><br />I have an 1882 Chicago Team version of the same set...<br /><br />and while I like it because it is neat...<br /><br />it is NOT a baseball "trading card."<br /><br /><img src="/images/sad.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br />It is simply a "Team Photograph" just like the ones they give out to the first 20,000 fans on Picture Day at Fenway. <br /><br />Not a "card."
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Posted By: <b>Kevin Cummings</b><p>DD and Hal:<br /><br />I absolutely believe that as one of if not the <b>the</b> premier auction houses for sports memorablila Mastro should have originally included what now appears as an addendum in their item description. But unless Mastro is out and out lying, doesn't the added note now fully disclose what has been done to the card?<br /><br />Kevin <br /><br />"<b><font color=red>Note - Inquiries have been made regarding what is referred to as the pinholes being "professionally mended". Just to confirm, no other restoration has been done to this phenomenal card. The card did display glue residue and pencil markings on the front of the image which was cleaned but nothing was added to the card.</font></b>"<br />
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Posted By: <b>Mark</b><p>"Again, this is why I REALLY WANT someone reputable like SGC to start slabbing cards as "Authentic-Rebacked" or "Authentic-Bleached" or "Authentic-Trimmed"..."<br /><br />"I've been suggesting to SGC that they slab altered or trimmed for years now..."<br /><br />I have seen several PSA-slabbed cards labeled "Authentic--Trimmed" on ebay and, in fact, I have purchased one.
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Posted By: <b>Hal Lewis</b><p>Kevin, I suppose it does ... but I just think it would have been COOLER to actually SHOW the difference between "before" and "after."<br /><br /><img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br />Mastro says the pinholes were "mended"... but that "no other restoration" was done to the card.<br /><br />And that all depends on what you consider to be "restoration?"<br /><br />Cleaning the glue off with some solvents and erasing the writing off of the card COULD be considered "restoration"... but admittedly they are disclosing these facts now.<br /><br />And if the paper was "deacidifyed"... then that COULD be considered "restoration."<br /><br />If the photographic image was re-developed and sharpened up... then that COULD be considered "restoration."<br /><br />???<br /><br />I think that the door is still open... because the potential buyer is at the mercy of how MASTRO defines "restoration."<br /><br />I think the card has been "cleaned up" using several different professional methods that an untrained person could NOT have done at home...<br /><br />but an untrained buyer would probably NOT SUSPECT that all of this work was done to the card under the heading of "cleaning."<br /><br />Just my thoughts.
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Posted By: <b>JDWeller</b><p>Very disappointed to learn of this and great work to the board. This is one of the most drastic makeovers this board has uncovered. It is ironic when Mr. Miller, in an effort to pump his own lot, may have actually ended up hurting it. <br /><br />One has to wonder if Mastro (and other auction houses) rountinely recommend to their clients to have their consignments improved in this manner? Mr. Miller commented that he had no idea until he saw the catalog, so did Mastro do this without his consent? The processes could not be inexpensive and I would think the consignor would know what was being done as he would be footing the bill.<br /><br />The added disclosure to the description is not enough. The lot should be pulled unless Mastro has contacted all of the bidders to inform them of the history of this item. <br /><br />The board has actually been quite kind to both Mastro and Mr. Miller it must be the Christmas spirit as I have watched others get torn apart for far less. The post by Mr. Miller and his consent to restore the item under these conditions, given his prominence in the hobby and his financial stature, is in very poor form.<br /><br />JDW<br /><br />
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Posted By: <b>Hal Lewis</b><p>Jay Miller has always been nice to me.<br /><br />Doug Allen and Kevin Struss at Mastro have always been nice to me.<br /><br />Heck, everyone has always been nice to me, because I try to be nice to them.<br /><br />Well...<br /><br />I guess there was that one time I had to straighten BcD out. <img src="/images/wink.gif" height=14 width=14> Are you still out there Brian?<br /><br />---<br /><br />I don't want to think that anybody was trying to "cheat" or "deceive" anyone...<br /><br />which is why I REALLY wish that they had just disclosed EVERYTHING from the beginning and not opened the door for people to even suspect anything fishy. <img src="/images/sad.gif" height=14 width=14>
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Posted By: <b>george counter</b><p>Very well said JD!<br /><br />"The board has actually been quite kind to both Mastro and Mr. Miller it must be the Christmas spirit as I have watched others get torn apart for far less. The post by Mr. Miller and his consent to restore the item under these conditions, given his prominence in the hobby and his financial stature, is in very poor form."<br /><br />The Board's favorite OJ Guru has received a very kind treatment.<br />I'm counting on MW to keep the investigation open <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>
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Posted By: <b>george counter</b><p>"I don't want to think that anybody was trying to "cheat" or "deceive" anyone..."<br /><br />Quote from movie fav Ferris Bueller:<br /><br />Ed Rooney : Wake up and smell the coffee, Mrs Bueller. It's a fool's paradise. He is just leading you down the primrose path. <br /><br />Come on Hal!<br /><br />
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Posted By: <b>Hal Lewis</b><p>Mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm..............<br /><br />smell those beans a roastin' !!<br /><br /><img src="/images/wink.gif" height=14 width=14>
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Posted By: <b>PASJD</b><p>I don't know the consignor so I will confine my final comments on this affair to Mastro, who I don't know personally but can judge as I would any other business in the public eye. In my opinion as a collector and a lawyer: (1) the after the fact disclosure clearly was made only because they got caught by members of this Board trying to perpetrate, if not a fraud, then a deception -- selling a card whose appearance had been substantially changed, without disclosing the particulars and certainly without disclosing the extent. Whether or not the "cleaning" or "stabilization" is a legitimate restorative technique is a subjective question, and in a public auction, with no clear standards on what is and what is not acceptable restoration, there is no excuse for not disclosing the true facts and letting the buyers judge for themselves. One can only conclude the omission was intentional. (2) The after the fact disclosure was grossly inadequate. It is poorly worded, does not reveal the true reason for adding to the description (inquiry was not made about the pinholes, it was made about the cleaning, so the message is a non-sequitur), and does not in any event reveal the EXTENT to which the appearance of the card had been changed (to use a neutral word). (3) One is left wondering how many other items past and present are/have been similarly deceptive.
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Posted By: <b>Julie</b><p><img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>
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Posted By: <b>Hal Lewis</b><p>PAS....<br /><br />Do you practice in Boston?<br /><br />If so, I think I bought my T205 PSA 7 Walter Johnson card from you years ago.<br /><br /><br /><br />
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Posted By: <b>PASJD</b><p>As I emailed you, yes as to Boston, but you are thinking of a 15 CJ Wagner PSA 7.
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Posted By: <b>Scott Elkins</b><p>If this would have been Greg Schwartz, instead of the party(ies) involved, everyone here would have been all over him! In my book, this is far worse than what Greg did or didn't do to the E95 Cobb!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Posted By: <b>Hal Lewis</b><p>Yeah...<br /><br />I am guessing that "BOTN" has not seen this thread yet...<br /><br />or he is showing more restraint than is humanly possible.<br /><br />
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Posted By: <b>Jay Miller</b><p>I think it is necessary to respond to Mr. Counter's comments. I mentioned earlier that after I handed over my cards for consignment I was told by one of the Mastro representatives, in passing, that they would clean up the cabinet. I didn't give the comment much thought and never responded. My lack of response was undoubtedly taken as my agreement as the next time I saw, or heard of the cabinet, it was when I got the catalog. Thinking back when "cleaning up" was mentioned I guess I would have assumed that this meant trying to remove the glue on the front. After my post this morning began generating questions about whether the cabinet had been restored beyond repairing the pinholes I called Kevin Struss, who was one of the people who picked up the consignment, and asked him if there was any other restoration beyond the pinhole repair. He was in transit to Chicago for the auction but later Doug Allen called me back. He talked to the outside conservator and then examined the cabinet under a black light. He related that the cabinet's only restoration was the pinhole repair and, at that time, he made the addition to the lot's description. I'm not sure why you are attacking me. I'm also not sure why making comments about my use of capital letters or my financial resources have any relevance to the discussion. Personally, I see no problem removing glue and pencil marks from a cabinet. I think this is cleaning not restoring. If you think otherwise then we can just agree to disagree. Repairing pinholes is restoration and needs to be disclosed. I don't know how you deacidify paper but I seriously doubt that it would involve removing the photo. Should that also be disclosed--I don't know, couldn't hurt. According to Andy's post, bidders have been notified about what has been done to the cabinet. If you intended to bid and choose not to now that is your choice. Whether this impairs the final realization on the lot I don't know. I'm not sure what else I can add but if you would like to discuss it further please email me at curl777@aol.com.
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Posted By: <b>Hal Lewis</b><p>If Jay had wanted to "fool" people...<br /><br />then he would have had the cabinet professionally restored and/or cleaned BEFORE sending it to Mastro.<br /><br />They would have put it up for auction without asking any questions, and NOBODY would know the truth.<br /><br />The fact that he sent it to them in the "original" condition tells me that he had no plans of trying to put one over on anyone.<br /><br />In fact, he probaby wet his pants at how GOOD the card looked ... and probably tried to get it BACK from Mastro but it was too late!! <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br /><br />---<br /><br />JAY: ONE QUESTION:<br /><br />Did Mastro CHARGE you anything for the cleaning and repair of the holes?????
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Posted By: <b>a more rational Scott</b><p>The "everyone hates Greg" line is very old and tiresome and I don't buy it. I'm not going to fire up that fight again by telling you the obvious reasons why this is a totally different situation, besides - you're smart enough to know that already. <br /><br />(edited to remove harsh words)
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Posted By: <b>Scott Elkins</b><p>I don't know. However, I do know the last card I consigned to them (T207 Red Cross Blackburne) was "stabilized". There was a big stain toward the top of the back (more like a "burn" mark). This can be seen in Lipset's Encyclopedia. They cleaned this - did a good job, as the back looked almost perfect except for a small spot of paper loss near the right side.<br /><br />They (Mastronet) DO ask the consignor before doing so!<br /><br />The consignor HAS to agree or disagree - no in between!<br /><br />The consignor HAS to know the extent of the restoration (stabilization) - b/c there is the "new and improved" example in full color in their catalog (which the consignor receives a copy of - of course)!<br /><br />Also - if "mending pinholes" is not that bad - why did several people attack Greg Schwartz regarding the 1914 CJ Johnson - in which he simply pressed a pinhole together??????????
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Posted By: <b>Wesley</b><p>The two of you may be the only ones here who have seen the cabinet prior to it being sent for cleaning.<br /><br />I could see where the cleaner removed the yellow glue residue across Keeler's jersey. I am less sure about the white spot on the bottom of the photo. Can either of you remember whether the white spot on the bottom of the photo is glue residue or whether the white spot is paper loss?<br />
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Posted By: <b>PASJD</b><p>The truth will out. I wonder if Mastro will be so decent as to reveal which lots in their current and future auctions have been subjected to the services of an "outside conservator," and what services were performed by said conservator. Even better, let 'em post before and after photos of each items. Think it'll happen?
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Posted By: <b>Scott Elkins</b><p>I don't recall saying what you stated in the first place. In the second place, I am NOT kissing anyone's backside as you put it!!!!! If anyone is doing that, it would be YOU and the others (if anyone else is defending Jay) who are defending Jay and Mastronet!!!!! YOU, my friend, are doing the A@@ kissing - not me!!!!! I am simply stating the facts, as they can be seen on this post and the ones involving Greg! Maybe YOU should look at this with a little more "unbiased" eye!?!?!?!?
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Posted By: <b>Hal Lewis</b><p>Jay OR Scott E.:<br /><br />Did Mastro charge YOU for the services of the "conservator"...<br /><br />or do THEY take care of that?
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Posted By: <b>Scott</b><p>...because it was a bit rude and uncalled for. But I think you're being ridiculous. To tell us we're kissing someone's *ss because we state our opinions and you disagree with them is just plain ignorant. The best you can do is try to divert attention by bringing up your buddy Greg? That's pathetic.
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Posted By: <b>MW</b><p>Jay,<br /><br />Any idea who Doug Allen/Kevin Struss had restore the card? If removing tape and writing isn't "true restoration" then I'm guessing that other members of this forum might be interested in learning more about the process. Perhaps the company involved can shed more light on what exactly was done.
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Posted By: <b>Scott Elkins</b><p>And, not the "more rational scott". Anyway - Mastronet did NOT charge me for what they did to the T207 Red Cross. Doug said they would just touch it up with a little bleach or something to that extent. However, I don't know for more extensive "stabilization" - if they charge or not.
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Posted By: <b>MW</b><p>Scott,<br /><br />Doug Allen said he used bleach on your card and performed the work in-house? Are you sure?
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Posted By: <b>PASJD</b><p>"They would touch it up with a little bleach..." Now according to what I have learned today from petecld I think it was and perhaps others, even folks who think cleaning is OK do not approve of bleach because in the long run it can damage a card. How does Mastro justify that I am left wondering. This is getting more interesting by the minute. (Note, once again, my comments are directed at Mastro, not at any consignor as I have no reason to believe they had any involvement.)
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Posted By: <b>Scott</b><p>"Bleach or something to that extent" - Scottie, you do realize that there is a difference between bleaching a card and cleaning it? You might want to check your facts before you post such ambiguous accusations. But if nothing else, this latest post of yours sheds some light on your need to "plug" Greg in this thread.
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Posted By: <b>Paulie</b><p>Jay,<br /><br /><br />What about the Keeler Bingoes cabinet?<br />Did Struss or Allen offer their restoration service for this one too?<br /><br /><br /><br /><br />A bad hobby day for Wee Willie Keeler <img src="/images/sad.gif" height=14 width=14>
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Posted By: <b>Scott Elkins</b><p>YES - Doug did state "they" - Mastronet would clean the card. He knew I was opposed to "altering" a card, so he told me something to the effect they would simply clean it with a little bleach - convinced me it was "cleaning". I have no idea HOW the card was cleaned, as I was not there of course. I do know the back looked "whiter" than before. Also, I think I have some Before picures in an article I helped with in Beckett. I do know I have the after pictures from Mastronet's catalog (which I still have). Anyway, the before pictures can be seen - not too clearly - in Lipset's Encyclopedia - I will try and get both the Before and After scans to you MW (If that Beckett has the before scan - I will have to look - my memory is not as good as John Spencer believes it to be).<br /><br />One last thing - runscott - YOU are the one bringing Greg up in EVERY post of late - NOT ME!
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Posted By: <b>MW</b><p>Scott,<br /><br />Thanks for the information. I'll post before and after images as soon as I receive them from you.
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Posted By: <b>Hal Lewis</b><p>Is it just me...<br /><br />or is it pretty funny that we can't ESCAPE the guy from C.A.R.D.S. all week...<br /><br />and then we finaly get a thread that would interest him...<br /><br />and he's missing all the fun!<br /><br /><img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>
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Posted By: <b>PASJD</b><p>What (if anything) did they PROPOSE to do that you turned down as being unacceptable alteration? Your message suggests that had you not been opposed to alteration they would have done more. Thanks.
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Posted By: <b>Jay Miller</b><p>Several questions to answer:<br /><br />1-Hal:As far as I know I am not being charged for the work-no one ever told me I would be. I assume that if I were being charged someone would have to OK the bill with me.<br /><br />2-Mike: I know it was an outside service but I don't know who. I'm sure one of the guys at Mastro could tell you<br /><br />3-As I said before I did not OK any restoration work. The only thing I heard was that they would clean up the cabinet and, as I mentioned previously, I didn't give the comment much thought. I never was asked specifically about pinhole repair or anything else specific for that matter.<br /><br />4-Scott did not own this cabinet before me. I bought it on ebay. I obviously remember the glue and the pencil marks but I don't remember any paper loss. <br /><br />5-I would suggest addressing any other questions about the work to the guys at Mastronet. It's not like I don't want to help but I've basically recounted everything I know.
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Posted By: <b>Hal Lewis</b><p>Like I said...<br /><br />where is "The Man From C.A.R.D.S." when we need him!<br /><br />He would call Mastro and get to the bottom of this...<br /><br />but here is a chance for him to do it BEFORE an auction ends.<br /><br />
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Posted By: <b>Scott Elkins</b><p>First, Doug knew from my position on different topics on this board that I did not like any card to be altered in any form! The only alterations Mastronet wanted to do was to "clean" the card. I apologize if I mislead anyone into thinking Mastronet wanted to do more. Doug just knew I was opposed to any alterations!<br /><br />Just found the Vintage Beckett Nov. 2002 issue that Leon and I helped Wayne Grove with the T207 Red Cross article on page 14. Unfortunately, the article does picture the Blackburne. However, the pictures are the "After" pictures from Mastronet's catalog. However, the article shows Leon's Weaver - it is from the same "find" as the Blackburne and has the same spot at the top (in the middle) as the Blackburne had before the "cleaning". I guess the only before picture left is in Lipset's Encyclopedia - unless someone here on the board might have a scan I sent them. I know I sent several scans of card backs to different people working on websites or doing articles or just wanting a scan for the rare type cards.
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Posted By: <b>MW</b><p><i>"2-Mike: I know it was an outside service but I don't know who. I'm sure one of the guys at Mastro could tell you"</i><br /><br />Jay,<br /><br />Any chance you could call (or email) and ask? I'm not doubting they would tell me, but just in case.
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Posted By: <b>PASJD</b><p>Just speculation on my part based on geography and apparent expertise.<br /><a href="http://www.graphicconservation.com" target=_new>http://www.graphicconservation.com</a>/<br />
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Posted By: <b>Hal Lewis</b><p>Hey, what a coincidence!<br /><br />This website's explanation matches what I posted earlier:<br /><br />They DO remove the photographs from the backings and RESTORE/CLEAN them separately because they are made from different materials.<br /><br />They DO repair "paper loss" with pulp and Japanese tissue.<br /><br /><img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br />Quite frankly ... their work is INCREDIBLE ...<br /><br />and should be FULLY DISCLOSED to any potential buyer.<br /><br />----<br /><br />Andy: Are these the folks doing your Burkett?
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Posted By: <b>Scott Elkins</b><p>Doug,<br /><br />The statement is not really inaccurate. You did state something to that<br />effect to me. The card did have the "burnt" mark at the top - just like<br />Leon's Weaver. It is pictured in Lipset's Encyclopedia like that! There<br />was nothing on the "surface" of the card - it was some kind of a stain that<br />resembled a "burnt" mark.<br /><br />Like I stated - I really have no idea what you guys did or did not do to the<br />card. However, in my conversation with you at the time, I remember you did<br />mention about cleaning up the back and I am almost certain you mentioned<br />bleaching the card.<br /><br />Regards,<br /><br />Scott<br />----- Original Message ----- <br />From: "Doug Allen" <dallen@mastronet.com><br />To: <tycobb@optidynamic.com><br />Sent: Wednesday, December 08, 2004 10:34 PM<br />Subject: Bleaching?<br /><br /><br />Scott,<br /><br />I would appreciate if you would rescind your comment on Network 54 Board<br />that I "bleached" your card.<br /><br />I honestly don't recall if your card had any stain or if we had it removed,<br />but I can tell you that I or no one at my firm would ever bleach a card. I<br />have nothing against erasing pencil, removing glue or having a conservation<br />house remove something on the surface of a card to improve its appearance as<br />long as it does not add to the card or alter the surface in any way.<br /><br />This statement you made is very troubling to me and absolutely inaccurate.<br /><br />Regards,<br />Doug<br /><br />Doug Allen<br />President<br />MastroNet, inc.<br />
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WHAT IS THE KEELER ROOKIE
Posted By: <b>Scott</b><p>All you did was confuse the terms "bleaching" and "cleaning" when posting in a public forum conversations you had with another person. I don't understand at all why Doug would get upset - it must be clear to him that you simply don't understand the difference. After all, since you are totally against restoration, you certainly would have adamantly said "no" if someone had suggested "bleaching"...if you had known what that term meant.<br /><br />And I have to give you credit - at least now you are posting personal correspondence from others directly on this board, as opposed to simply typing down from memory what you think others might have said to you. Kudos!
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WHAT IS THE KEELER ROOKIE
Posted By: <b>Scott Elkins</b><p>From further conversing with Doug via e-mail. He still states they did not bleach the card. I seem to now (after thinking about it harder) remember Doug or someone (ever who called me to ask if it was OK to clean the back) mention to me that the cleaning process would only involve a little bleach and a Q-Tip. <br /><br />Of course, neither one of us (Doug nor myself) can be 100% correct on the exact specifics of the conversation. I do know there was a "Burnt" mark at the top of the card - this can be seen in Lipset's Encyclopedia (and on Leon's Weaver) - Doug cannot remember. I can b/c I owned the card for a while. Anyway, I can just tell what I remember from the conversation with the person from Mastronet. I WAS NOT THERE WHEN THE CARD WAS CLEANED - I DON'T KNOW IF BLEACH WAS USED OR IF THEY USED SOMETHING A CONTESTANT ON "FEAR FACTOR" WOULD HAVE TO EAT TO REMOVE THE BURNT MARK ON THE CARD! I have stated before I have no idea how the card was cleaned, as I was not there. However, I am stating it again, so Doug will know I am not swearing that I saw them do something he says they did not do to that particular card. One thing, however, I will stick by what I remember from the conversation - Q-Tip and Bleach. Though, again, I cannot say this was what Mastronet used to clean the back, as I was not there!<br /><br />runscott - I don't know what your agenda is - other than kissing Jay's A@@ and showing your ignorance. However, I have never stated the converation did not include the word bleach - in fact, I can remember being told that it would be applied with a Q-Tip to "CLEAN" the card! Do you not know that bleach is used to clean????????? Also, you want to attack me for not being able to remember EVERY WORD from a conversation that took place 3 or more years ago - then you MUST criticize Doug for not even remembering the card was stained and Mastronet did clean it!!!!!!!!!
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Posted By: <b>MW</b><p>Scott,<br /><br />So let me get this straight. Doug can't specifically remember if he removed a stain from your card but if he did, he recalls that he definitely did not use bleach. According to your recollection, he mentioned both bleach and a q-tip. Is that correct?
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WHAT IS THE KEELER ROOKIE
Posted By: <b>Scott Elkins</b><p>Too bad "runscott" cannot comprehend this as well as you! I can SPECIFICALL recall being told the "cleaning" process involved "only a Q-Tip and some bleach to clean the card up, so it will look nicer"! Like you stated - Doug cannot remember the card even being cleaned, but YET he CAN remember no bleach was used and never telling me bleach was used - maybe "runscott" should question Doug's memory - not mine regarding this issue??????
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WHAT IS THE KEELER ROOKIE
Posted By: <b>Jimmy Leiderman</b><p>Scott, why post private email conversations?<br /><br />I know this is a hot topic, but I would suggest deleting Doug Allen's email piece.<br /><br /><br />Hope you understand.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br />
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WHAT IS THE KEELER ROOKIE
Posted By: <b>Scott Elkins</b><p>I have no problem with your mentioning did work to clean the surface as we absolutely did. I am just sensitive to inference that we used techniques that alter the surface of the card which we would never do.<br /><br />Enough on this.<br />Doug<br /><br />Doug Allen<br />President<br />MastroNet, inc.<br /><br /><br /><br />Jim - sorry about posting e-mail conversations. However, it seems runscott does not trust my Word! I will go back and delete the contact information however, as I have on the above e-mail.
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WHAT IS THE KEELER ROOKIE
Posted By: <b>MW</b><p>Hal,<br /><br />I'm wondering the same thing as you are -- does a photograph or photographic stock have to be removed from its backing in order for a card or cabinet to be de-acidified/stabilized? <br /><br />David?
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WHAT IS THE KEELER ROOKIE
Posted By: <b>PASJD</b><p>Doug was not saying he SPECIFICALLY recalled not using bleach on Scott's card, only that (so he claims) it is his practice never to do so. I think that there is a bit of linguistic sorcery involved in how you have characterized what he said. But, having said that, my impression is that Scott has a clear and accurate memory of the conversation that sounds entirely credible to me. As we know from other contexts, people denying things sometimes "doth protest too much."
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WHAT IS THE KEELER ROOKIE
Posted By: <b>MW</b><p>PASJD,<br /><br />You are correct. Doug's statement was more general -- i.e., "I can tell you that I or no one at my firm would ever bleach a card." (-Doug Allen)<br /><br />From this statement, I concluded something more specific, but still reasonable -- that Doug did not bleach Scott's card. I should have clarified that in my previous statement.
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WHAT IS THE KEELER ROOKIE
Posted By: <b>PASJD</b><p>You are doubtless far more knowledgeable about the folks involved then I am. My initial assessment of the relative credibility of the parties to the conversation is based on intuition and professional experience. I would be interested in how you came to your opinion that the card was not bleached, if you care to share it.
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WHAT IS THE KEELER ROOKIE
Posted By: <b>MW</b><p>PASJD,<br /><br />I do not claim to know the truth of the situation. The only thing that I'm sure of is that one party claims that bleach and a q-tip were used and the other is sure that while restoration might have been done, bleach was never involved.<br /><br />When I used the word "conclusion", I did not mean to apply it in a deterministic way; it was only meant to draw a specific <b><i>conclusion</i></b> from one that was general and more inclusive in scope.
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WHAT IS THE KEELER ROOKIE
Posted By: <b>Andy Baran</b><p>I have been given permission by Doug Allen to post Mastro's Official Stance on Restoration. This e-mail was their response to my inquiry about the Keeler Cabinet that I made earlier today.<br /><br />>From: "Doug Allen" <dallen@mastronet.com><br />>To: <abaran0427@hotmail.com><br />>Subject: An official word on restoration...<br />>Date: Wed, 8 Dec 2004 21:56:32 -0600<br />><br />>Andy,<br />><br />>In response to your inquiry here is our official comment regarding <br />>restoration when it comes to cards:<br />>We believe it is acceptable to remove glue, pencil, paste, stains, etc. off <br />>of the surface of a card as long as it in no way alters the surface. If any <br />>of these processes alter the surface of the card we believe that <br />>alteration needs to be disclosed. We believe it is unacceptable to add <br />>to the surface or alter the surface of a card in any way. This includes <br />>adding color, bleaching, filling lost paper, etc.<br />><br />>Sincerely,<br />>Doug<br />><br />>Doug Allen<br />>President<br />>MastroNet, inc.<br />>10 S. 660 Kingery Hwy.<br />>Willowbrook, IL 60527<br />><br />>Phone: 630-472-1200<br />>Fax: 630-472-1201<br />>e-mail: dallen@mastronet.com<br />
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WHAT IS THE KEELER ROOKIE
Posted By: <b>MW</b><p>"We believe it is acceptable to remove glue, pencil, paste, stains, etc. off <br />of the surface of a card as long as it in no way alters the surface."<br /><br />-Doug Allen<br /><br /><br />Question for Doug: How does your company remove such a stain from a card? What chemical or additive is used and how do you know that this chemical will not degrade the surface? Also, do you offer any guarantee in your auction catalogs that the work you perform will not have any adverse future impact on items you sell to collectors?
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WHAT IS THE KEELER ROOKIE
Posted By: <b>Jimmy Leiderman</b><p>After reading Mastro's official comment on this issue, I have to agree 100% that lot description changes are in line and provide full disclosure of any work done with the Keeler cabinet.<br /><br />I think they did the right thing, the way a major and professional auction house should do after fully reviewing their clients complaints.<br /><br />I do like the fact that Mastro's staff read the complaints and showed interest in solving this issue in a timely manner. Remember this debate started less than 24 hrs ago. <br />How many times have we read in the past about other auction houses not responding to questions and complaints the way they should do?<br /><br /><br /><br />As a side note, I still don't agree on why some board users are allowed to start threads to hype their consignments everytime the auction circuit season starts.<br /><br /><br />JL
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WHAT IS THE KEELER ROOKIE
Posted By: <b>hankron</b><p>but it appears that this cabinet was the 'original art' used to make a picture in a newspaper, magazine or such. The pencil marks and writing would have been a part of the publication's original production. Perhaps the pencil lines would likely the editor's or printer's cropping marks showing how the photo was to be 'cut down' for publication and the numbers would relate to the size of the magazine's picture.<br /><br />These original production marks are an interesting part of the photo or any publishing photo, showing how it was used and confirming it's unusual history. I can tell you that these types of 1800s baseball "wirephotos" are rarely found.<br /><br />Even if I were to restore or clean up this cabinet, I would choose to have the front marks left on as they are an integral part of what the photo is.
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WHAT IS THE KEELER ROOKIE
Posted By: <b>hankron</b><p>I should add that, in its current state, the cabinet is pretty as a flower. Even when advertised as restored or gussied up or hosed off, I don't see the current bidding as unexpected. I understand and appreceate posters who refuse to buy restored items (I prefer my memorabilia au natural), but there are collectors out there don't have the same philosophy especially when an item is to be displayed.
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Posted By: <b>Joe P.</b><p>Us folks here at R-Ville have truly enjoyed this thread.<br />I want to take this opportunity to thank Mark M. for bringing it to my attention.<br />I will not discuss the conversation that we had.<br />I will say this, that after reading this thread so far, I feel a slight restoration of hope for my hobby.<br /><br />The questions are being asked.<br />Pat answers that worked before, are now totally unacceptable.<br />If I want a restored 1952 MG and I can afford it, I'll go for it.<br />If I want my vintage cards unrestored, that's the way I want them.<br />If an auction house, a seller or a trader is offering a restored item, I want to be told.<br />Anything less than that is deceitful period.<br />You have seen with your own eyes what can be done.<br />You have seen with your own eyes the before and after Keeler.<br />You now know about their third party MO.<br />You know damn well that this is not an isolated case.<br />You've also heard their response after being caught with their Dr's Kit.<br />Are your eyes and ears liars?<br /><br />Or is it?<br />Yes Virginia, Authenticator Gods do live on Mt. Olympus.<br />
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WHAT IS THE KEELER ROOKIE
Posted By: <b>Hal Lewis</b><p>David (hankron):<br /><br />What can you tell us about "restoration" of old photographs that would be DIFFERENT than deacidifying an old piece of cardboard???<br /><br />My understanding is that the photograph would have to be REMOVED from the backing before the cardboard is immersed in the deacidifying solution.<br /><br />And what can you tell us about my earlier post (about 50 posts ago) that mentions RE-DEVELOPMENT of the photograph after being immersed in some sort of solutions (perhaps bleached with something like a copper chloride solution or a potassium permanganate solution)??<br /><br />You are the PHOTO expert, so help us out!! <br /><br /><img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br />By the way ... if the work that was done on this cabinet went so far as to REMOVE the photo from the backing ... then I will say two things:<br /><br />1) This conservator is very good at what they do, and I would trust them with any rare pieces that I wished to have restored. BUT...<br /><br />2) This DEFINITELY goes beyond the realm of "cleaning" a card and should be disclosed to the hobby World.
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WHAT IS THE KEELER ROOKIE
Posted By: <b>PASJD</b><p>Perhaps Andy who seems to have a good relationship would care to relay these as well as MW's: Why to date have you not disclosed to the public your relationship with the "outside conservator" and why does your catalog not include, for each item the conservator "cleaned" or "stabilized," a description of precisely what services were rendered and the extent of them? Has this merely been an oversight? Will you make full disclosure in the future? Are there any other items in the current auction on which similar services were performed? The issue here is not simply what Doug/Mastro consider acceptable (see Doug's email reprinted by Andy) the issue is DISCLOSURE. As any lawyer will tell you, it is deceitful to sell an item while concealing a known, MATERIAL fact. Materiality in legal terms means something a reasonable buyer would consider important to the total mix of available information. In my judgment, what was done to the Keeler was "material" and intuition tells me the same is true with respect to other items. I, and I would guess others, would be quite interested in the response.
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Posted By: <b>Hal Lewis</b><p>I certainly agree with you, counselor.<br /><br />Tell us EVERYTHING ... and then let US decide whether we still want the item or not.<br /><br /><img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br />But then again... now that I know these types of incredible restoration techniques are available...<br /><br />I find it hard to believe that ANY valuable paper artifact has not already been put through this process.<br /><br /><img src="/images/sad.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br />What would stop all of the consignors and individual collectors from having their items restored BEFORE sending them to Mastro, and then not disclosing these facts?<br /><br />Yeah, I know that they SHOULD do it ... but would they? Doubtful.<br /><br />So even if Mastro FULLY DISCLOSED whatever work THEY have done to their auction items...<br /><br />it would just mean that consignors will start having their items restored BEFORE sending them to Mastro, so that Mastro won't know and won't tell. <br /><br /><img src="/images/sad.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br />And unfortunately .. after seeing the "magic" that these professionals were able to do with this Keeler cabinet...<br /><br />I will NEVER AGAIN be able to look at a vintage item that is in great condition and believe that it has NOT been "restored."<br /><br />Kind of takes the fun out of it. <br /><br /><img src="/images/sad.gif" height=14 width=14>
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Posted By: <b>Gilbert Maines</b><p>I fully understand that for many collectors that it is hard to believe, but some collectors actually prefer a card which is not in pristine condition. I am one who has this preference. The rational which I am comfortable with includes the following observations relative to a worn card:<br />- the card was really "there","then". It was not accidentally lost right after acquisition, nor put away by a disinterested pack rat. It was handled, perhaps played with and enjoyed by someone from the period of issuance.<br />- the wear adds character to the card (up to a point). As does the toning.<br /><br />Sorry, there are not 100 reasons which justify my preference. But for me, these two suffice.<br /><br />So, to take a card in my preferred condition and alter it to more closely approximate its new condition appearance is a preference which I do not share. But I would never consider making an antique automobile into a hot rod either. But I do enjoy looking at hot rods, just like I enjoy looking at restored cards. I have no desire to own either tho.
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Posted By: <b>Hal Lewis</b><p>Me too, Gilbert.<br /><br />I would rather have a nicer looking card than a totally trashed one...<br /><br />but only if they are BOTH in their original state.<br /><br />For example:<br /><br />There is only ONE example known to exist of the RARE Honus Wagner rookie card -- the 1897 Reccius Wagner card -- and it is in a PSA 1 holder because of some creasing and a small tear.<br /><br />I would MUCH RATHER own the card in this ORIGINAL condition ... instead of having it "restored" ... but I wouldn't turn it down EITHER way!<br /><br /><img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br />Has ANYONE ever seen a "Professionally Restored" T206 Honus Wagner card??<br /><br />It would sure seem like they could take an old one and "fix it up" real nice...<br /><br />but I wonder how it would compare value-wise to the "beaten up" ones that are selling regularly for $100,000?<br /><br />Any thoughts?<br />
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WHAT IS THE KEELER ROOKIE
Posted By: <b>PASJD</b><p>Well not to open a new can of worms, but certainly rumors abound that the PSA 8 Gretzky-McCall Wagner was trimmed. From what I am told it is "common knowledge" in some circles but of course I have no way of knowing. Hey Hal, I confess, that PSA 7 CJ Wagner I sold you was "cleaned," "stabilized," bleached with a q-tip, and other things too evil to mention. I'll take it back though just to show what a good guy I am.
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WHAT IS THE KEELER ROOKIE
Posted By: <b>PASJD</b><p>Have similar services been performed on cards that now reside in "slabs" from any of the three major grading companies? And if so, were they informed prior to submission? I don't know PSA's official posture on such things, but something tells me that if that Keeler had been a Cracker Jack Joe Jackson and PSA knew that its appearance had been altered that much, they wouldn't have slabbed it. Just a guess. Well I won't hold my breath expecting truthful answers, but it would be nice to get them.
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WHAT IS THE KEELER ROOKIE
Posted By: <b>Peter Thomas</b><p>This is all very interesting, but has anyone noticed that this item is beautiful? If everyone wishes to retract their bids I would be delighted to own this beauty for the opening bid.
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WHAT IS THE KEELER ROOKIE
Posted By: <b>Kevin Cummings</b><p>.......said the blind man as he kissed his pig.<br /><br />Ethical issues aside, from purely a collecting point of view this all comes down to one's preferences, doesn't it?<br /><br />As Peter just said, in its current state it is a beautiful looking item and collectors that have no issue with owning a restored card would love to have it (which is why there's no way Peter will be getting it for $300! <img src="/images/wink.gif" height=14 width=14> )
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WHAT IS THE KEELER ROOKIE
Posted By: <b>Gilbert Maines</b><p>Compared to some hobbies baseball card collecting is in its infancy, while compared to others it is quite sophisticated. I would much rather have our hobby emulate that of philately or numismatics than, for example, comic book collecting.<br /><br />In the former, there are the purists who prefer their collecting examples in unmodified condition, and those who value their perception of beauty (which is approximating newness at any cost) over originality. I believe that in both of these fields the purists outnumber those with alternate preferences. But there is a market for both preferences.<br /><br />Which of the following cards do you prefer: a vg/ex card showing wear common to handling, or the same card in vg/ex which is almost new, but accidentally damaged?<br /><br />Or the damaged card from above fully restored?
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WHAT IS THE KEELER ROOKIE
Posted By: <b>PASJD</b><p>Gilbert's post demonstrates precisely why DISCLOSURE is so important. We all have different preferences, there are no generally accepted industry standards but rather a whole bunch of gray areas as to which reasonable minds can and do differ, so any seller not out to deceive should disclose the FACTS so each buyer can decide for him or herself whether and how much to bid/pay for an item. A seller who makes a partial disclosure only when pushed to the wall by incontrovertible evidence of before and after photos has not, thus far, impressed me.
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