|
Legal assistance needed with PSA possibly
Posted By: <b>MW</b><p>Jay is quite right. The method of delivery is only as good as the process used to ship the item(s) and the handling abilities of the company or individual(s) receiving them. While it many be extremely difficult to determine liability here, I don't think there's any question that there was a breakdown in the system and that something needs to be fixed. No matter how meticulous and exacting the accounting principles are, there absolutely HAS to be some trust and faith involved on the part of the shipper. When no one is willing to take responsibility for an expensive, lost item, there is a clear breakdown in that trust and, absent corrective measures, the potential for future problems clearly exists.
|
Legal assistance needed with PSA possibly
Posted By: <b>Jimmy Leiderman</b><p>**To make matters worse, I am hearing that 1 of our publications wants no part of this story, which was going to be 1 of my only means of retaliation**<BR><BR>Dan, would you please post the name of the magazine or periodical so we can see who's afraid of losing some advertising $'s besides giving the small but well known hobby guy the chance of speaking?<BR><BR>Money talks...<BR><BR>Back in the old days, Lew Lipset crushed Krause/SCD every month in his newsletter.<BR>He was vetoed by SCD, but hey... at least he was trying to be objective and became the voice of many back then.<BR><BR>
|
Legal assistance needed with PSA possibly
Posted By: <b>Jay Miller</b><p>Seems to me that Joe Orlando knows two things:<BR><BR>1-That you say that you had two submissions in a box that was sent to him<BR><BR>2-That his people say that there was only one<BR><BR>Now Joe, I would guess, doesn't know you from a hole in the ground. Although many of the people on this Board would vouch for your honesty that doesn't tell Joe that in fact there were two submissions. As long as Joe trusts his people, and if he doesn't they shouldn't be working there, what would you have him do? If I was in his situation I wouldn't offer a refund; I would think that there is a possibility that I was being scammed. Also, by offering a refund he would be indirectly impugning the honesty of his own people. I would, however, be more consoling and would probably offer a few free submissions or something else that might be perceived as a nice gesture. From his perspective he doesn't want you to go away mad, he just wants you to go away.
|
Legal assistance needed with PSA possibly
Posted By: <b>warshawlaw</b><p>is to sue them, to expose their system to a jury of laypeople and see what they think. <BR><BR>You CAN prove you shipped the card; it is called direct testimony. You can testify that you packed and shipped the item in the box. You have a scan of the card, you have the customer copy of the slip you used, and you have the receipt showing delivery of the package. You also have PSA's express statement of its policy of refusing to accept damaged packages. You also have delivery of the cards that were also in the package. You thus appear to have covered every aspect of custody of the card until it reached the hands of PSA. If you say the card was in the package and PSA says it was not, I think PSA has the burden of proving that the card was not in the package. Since PSA does not have security cameras or other safeguards like a casino or bank, it cannot rightfully claim that the card was not in the package. What it is doing to you now, unfortunately, is playing the 800# gorilla--as long as it refuses to compensate you, it forces you to take it on.
|
Legal assistance needed with PSA possibly
Posted By: <b>MW</b><p><i><< the only alternative I see...is to sue them, to expose their system to a jury of laypeople and see what they think. >></i><BR><BR>I agree. I also think that one of the key sub-issues would be the reliability and integrity of those employees who sign for and receive packages. If PSA's "system" has problems, I would think that they would want to avoid any lawsuit/trial that would expose these problems -- especially since they are a publicly owned company (CLCT) and that any such lawsuit might adversely affect both CU's stock price and ability to obtain the new line of credit it has been seeking. Remember, PSA has much more money and power than you do Dan, but they also have much more at stake. <BR>
|
Legal assistance needed with PSA possibly
Posted By: <b>Todd (nolemmings)</b><p>but I doubt this particular case will affect PSA's borrowing position, for their exposure is relatively small even if found liable (I seriously doubt, at least at this point, that any intentional tort can be proved that would implicate punitive damages).<BR><BR>Keep in mind, a lawsuit would enable Dan to take discovery into exactly what measures PSA has in place, as well as whether/how/why those measures may have changed over time. From a purely selfish standpoint, I for one would like to know what those measures are. Similarly, discovery would teach Dan, if not the rest of us, the nature and frequency of employee problems.<BR><BR>I agree with Warshawlaw and MW that a lawsuit may not be a bad idea, and I am hopeful that, however this turns out, PSA will take steps at its end to reduce the chances of it happening again.<BR>
|
Legal assistance needed with PSA possibly
Posted By: <b>dan mckee</b><p>Yes they do have more money than me, and some of mine. Do I have any takers for a case? I can pay some but this lost has crushed me! As I stated, I<BR>work for the government. scans to follow.
|
Legal assistance needed with PSA possibly
Posted By: <b>dan mckee</b><p><img src=http://mywebpages.comcast.net/bandache/psareceipt.jpg><br><br>This is my tracking slip and my hand written note with both submission numbers on it. If I was to fake all of this, I surely would have insured the package for $7500 to cover the T206's and the Magie.
|
Legal assistance needed with PSA possibly
Posted By: <b>MW</b><p>Shipment Details<BR><BR><BR>You entered 2300 2730 0001 5405 8208 <BR><BR>Your item was delivered at 7:53 am on May 22, 2003 in NEWPORT BEACH, CA 92658 to PCGS PSA. The item was signed for by D SARBRICK. <BR><BR>Here is what happened earlier: <BR>ARRIVAL AT UNIT, May 22, 2003, 7:38 am, NEWPORT BEACH, CA 92660 <BR>ENROUTE, May 21, 2003, 6:26 am, NEWPORT BEACH, CA 92660 <BR>ACCEPTANCE, May 19, 2003, 10:45 am, WINDSOR MILL, MD 21244 <BR> <BR>
|
Legal assistance needed with PSA possibly
Posted By: <b>dan mckee</b><p>Correct! My emails to the gentleman who was to purchase this are dated May 14th, my scans of all 26 cards are dated May 17th. The submission number is non-existent on PSA's site. Trust me, having this package insured would have made NO difference to them, it is just the only thing they can try to see that was wrong with my submissions in their eyes.
|
Legal assistance needed with PSA possibly
Posted By: <b>MW</b><p>Dan,<BR><BR>Did you retain the gold copies of each submission form?
|
Legal assistance needed with PSA possibly
Posted By: <b>dan mckee</b><p>There are no gold copies, only white when you print from the internet site. Generic white form out of my $45 lexmark printer from adobe acrobat and I hand wrote my info on the forms, mailed them with the cards, and jotted the submission numbers down.
|
Legal assistance needed with PSA possibly
Posted By: <b>dan mckee</b><p>By the way, my 6 week submission that they received on May 22nd was delivered today! West coast to East coast means it was graded in 1 week! Hmmmm, that is strange! And the box is empty! I hope they filmed packing it and filmed taking it to the post office like I was expected to do. And by the way Peter of PSA, I did NOT write any card numbers down for the T206's as they do not have numbers as far as I am concerned. So 1 of your people filled in the numbers and another 1 of your people corrected the mistake that you thought I made! Many people obviously handle a submission and you obviously do not know what is going on there.
|
Legal assistance needed with PSA possibly
Posted By: <b>Jay Miller</b><p>Adam--I'm no lawyer but what you state is not PROOF that Dan shipped the card. It describes a logical series of events but, to play devil's advocate, what if Dan never put the card in the box and is trying to defraud PSA by concocting this whole story. What proof would a court have that this was not the case?
|
Legal assistance needed with PSA possibly
Posted By: <b>julie</b><p>just can't be imagined! Over my dead body go any of my cards to PSA.<BR><BR>Just a note about "delivery confirmation." I sent Terry Knouse a $105 personal check at the end of April, priority mail, with a delivery confirmation sticker. Although I asked him several times, he never got around to telling me whether he got the envelope or not. The other day (about June 5), I ran into my "delivery confirmation" slip, and punched it up on USPS.com. My envelope was delivered on May 4, and signed for by "T. Knouse." Always nice to know.<BR><BR>Of course if he wanted to, Terry could always say the envelope was empty...
|
Legal assistance needed with PSA possibly
Posted By: <b>Kenny Cole</b><p>Yes it is proof. His testimony that he placed the card in the package, insured it, and mailed it to the appropriate address is proof of those facts. Similarly, the testimony of the PSA employee who signed for the package (and presumably opened it) that the card wasn't there is proof. It then basically comes down to a matter of which testimony the jury finds more credibile. A real simple analogy is the intersectional car wreck case where there are no witnesses other than the participants who come forward, and each side says that they have the green light. The locations of the vehicles, skidmarks, etc. may be important, but those types of cases are very often won based on which of the two parties the jury thinks is telling the truth. It seems like a similar situation might exist here.<BR><BR>Maybe a suit is the answer. However, there are a few practical problems with what is essentially a coast-to-coast negligence lawsuit over $6,000. Depending on where it was filed, I suppose it might be an attorneys fee case since it involves loss of property. However, you take three depositions and you've eaten into that $6K a bunch, and you probably ain't gonna get all of those costs back even if you win. A long time ago, my senior partner told me that wars were fought over principle but lawsuits were fought over money. The possible recovery here, compared with the potential costs involved, may make a lawsuit problematic. However, if you decide to go that route, I hope you prevail. What happened stinks and it is a classic case of responsibility shirking. Why have cameras to allegedly prevent this type of thing if you aren't going to use them? That sort of smells.
|
Legal assistance needed with PSA possibly
Posted By: <b>Jay Miller</b><p>Kenny--Again, I'm not a lawyer but it seems to me that what you describe are assertions, not proof. Dan asserts that the card was in the box. PSA asserts that it wasn't. You can't have two legitimate proofs of contradictory events. I come from a mathematical background. In my world a proof establishes beyond any doubt that something is true.
|
Legal assistance needed with PSA possibly
Posted By: <b>Kenny Cole</b><p>Jay,<BR><BR>I was a chemistry major before I became a lawyer, so I had a fair amount of math background too. However, there are pretty substantial differences between the "hard" sciences and a civil lawsuit. In a civil case, at least one where allegations of fraud aren't involved, the plaintiff normally need only establish his claim by a preponderance of the evidence, i.e., that what he says happened is more probably true than not true. That's a far cry from a mathematical certainty. The closest thing the law has to the certainty requirement are criminal cases, where the standard is proof beyond a reasonable doubt. However, even there, some cases are simply swearing matches. If the jury believes that the complaining witness is telling the truth and the defendant is lying, you can get a conviction, despite the fact that two separate versions of "the truth" have been presented. When the facts are disputed, the jury gets to decide which version is right. They can decide that one side is right even if the Pope and every other religous leader of significance swears that the other side's story is the correct one. That's the way the system was designed, and that's the way it is supposed to work. It doesn't always, but it generally does. In that regard, you would be very surprised at how adept most juries are at spotting when they are getting fed a line of BS.<BR>
|
Legal assistance needed with PSA possibly
Posted By: <b>dan mckee</b><p>Jay, not sure what I have done to you but put yourself in my shoes once in awhile as well as in Joe's. I do not know you and you do not know me, maybe we should keep it that way. 1 thing to remember, I packed and shipped 1 package that day containing my own property that was very valuable to me. The PSA receiver opened hundreds of packages the day mine arrived and none of the contents of any of the packages were that person's property. Now who will remember what was in the package???????
|
Legal assistance needed with PSA possibly
Posted By: <b>Jay Miller</b><p>Dan--I think you are misinterpreting what I wrote. I believe you. I was just playing devil's advocate with what others had said and I think I indicated that. I just as easily could have inserted any name (instead of yours) in the example. The only point I was trying to make was that, as I have been taught to define "proof", there was no proof that you had sent the card. Do I think you sent the card--absolutely. Do I know with 100% certainty that you did-no.
|
Legal assistance needed with PSA possibly
Posted By: <b>dan mckee</b><p>Thanks Jay, I am sorry, I probably misunderstood and needless to say, I am on pins and needles these days. Take care and thanks again, dan.
|
Legal assistance needed with PSA possibly
Posted By: <b>TBob</b><p>As a criminal defense lawyer I can tell you that anyone who truly believes in such things as the presumption of innocence and the burden on the State to prove its case beyond a reasonable doubt is trapsing down the path of unreality. When I win a criminal case it is because we have succeeded in proving the defendant's innocence (or rather lack of guilt). There is a great law review article I recently read which stated that in this post 9-11 era, jurors no longer presume the innocence of the accused and the burden has subtly and quietly shifted to the defendant being forced to prove his/her case not the State convincing jurors with such certainty that they are convinced beyond a reasonable doubt. In criminal cases, the standard of proof for conviction has seemingly become more of a preponderance of the evidence than beyond a reasonable doubt, no matter how the jury is contrastingly instructed and despite their promises to require the State to prove its case as required by law. Credit the 9-11 aftermath, the OJ case, and the media's unfettered onslaught and irresponsibility in convicting defendants without the necessity of their day in court with much of the problem. <BR>This doesn't have a lot to do with cards, but is in response to a post in this thread.
|
Legal assistance needed with PSA possibly
Posted By: <b>dan mckee</b><p>ah ok? put this in English for me Bob, are you telling me I am done for here?
|
Legal assistance needed with PSA possibly
Posted By: <b>Hankron</b><p>I'm neither a liberal nor a conservative conspiracy extremist, but anyone who takes the popular media as gospel-- that's his or her failing. To a large degree, MSNBC, FOX and such are intended as forms of entertainment (obviously, to gather rating), and should be treated as such.
|
Legal assistance needed with PSA possibly
Posted By: <b>warshawlaw</b><p>Most laypeople don't understand the difference between types of evidence. Dan swearing under penalty of perjury that he went through the sequence of conduct we've been discussing IS evidence. Direct testimonial eyewitness evidence. What you and many others are fixating on is documentary evidence--paperwork, photographs, film, etc. Any court would accept Dan's testimony as evidence. Once given, the burden would be on PSA to disprove Dan's evidence. As I pointed out, PSA cannot do this because it cannot prove what happened when the package got to their office. I seriously doubt that anyone at PSA can accurately testify as to what was in the box because I doubt that anyone at PSA can even be shown to have opened it (my experience is that a company that processes lots of orders can point you to who was on duty that day, but that the individuals cannot testify accurately as to precisely what they did on their shifts).
|
Legal assistance needed with PSA possibly
Posted By: <b>dan mckee</b><p>Adam, you are my hero! so what can I do now? Since PSA does business in every state can I file small claims here? Should I contact the state of CA attorney general and make him/her aware of this? I am completely clueless as of what I can do, what I should do, what is the right thing to do. Can I email the competitor grading companies with a scan and to watch out for this "lost" card??? thanks dan.
|
Legal assistance needed with PSA possibly
Posted By: <b>Kenny Cole</b><p>TBob,<BR><BR>I presume that your post was in response to mine. When it comes to criminal matters, I don't really disagree with what you said. I practice in Oklahoma, the middle of the Bible-belt. With respect to criminal defendants, there has always been a rather pronounced do-as-I-say, not-as-I-do, hanging mentality around here. While I don't doubt that 9-11 and OJ made it worse, it existed before those two events.<BR><BR>Moreover, as you noted, newspapers can exacerbate the problem. That is certainly true here. The paper with the biggest circulation in this state, which we call the Daily Jokelahoman, is a rag. It is run by a bunch of right-wing zealots who make Dubya look like a liberal. I sometimes wonder if the paper's editors don't goose-step into their offices in the morning, thrust out their arms, and shout "Sig Heil" at each other before beginning their daily routine of trying to suppress all viewpoints other than their own. When it comes to an accused, the Daily Disappointment is great about trying and convicting him/her in the court of public opinion well in advance of trial. I can't argue with your view about the effect of the press on criminal defendants' rights. Unfortunately, I think you are correct.<BR><BR>However, the purpose of my post was not to extol the virtues of the criminal justice system. I was simply trying to explain to Jay that mathematical certainty wasn't required to win a civil suit and that eyewitness testimony that something did or didn't happen was proof, even if there was contrary testimony on precisely the same issue.<BR><BR>I also said that jurors are usually pretty good at cutting through BS and seeing things as they really are. At least in civil cases, I think that is generally true. Admittedly, jurors' vision can get blurred if the plaintiff has dirty laundry and the bad evidence comes in. However, even then, I would still trust their ability to reach the right result over that of many of the judges around here. Most of my friends who do criminal defense work feel similarly. It may be different in your neck of the woods though.<BR><BR>Back to the situation at hand. Am I correct in understanding that while PSA supposedly has cameras in place to video their intake employees and prevent precisely this type of occurrence, it cannot come up with a tape of this particular transaction? That seems a little odd to me. If that is accurate, it seems to me that a spoliation of evidence issue may exist. If it does, you might get the benefit of an inference that had the video been produced, what it showed would have been unfavorable to PSA. That sort of inference can be quite helpful at times. Just a thought.
|
Legal assistance needed with PSA possibly
Posted By: <b>Marc S.</b><p>to see if the following clause in PSA submissions form legalley binds you:<BR><BR>"Exclusive jurisdiction and venue for any dispute arising from Customer's submission of cards to PSA shall be in the Superior Court, Orange County, California, and Customer agrees to waive any right to a trial by jury in any such action, and further agrees that the prevailing party in any such action shall be entitled to an award of its attorney's fees and costs. "<BR><BR>It may not, but I am not of sufficient legal competence to render an opinion one way or another. In any case, Item 9 under "PSA Grading Terms and Procedures" explicity states that disclaimer, and if your submission form was signed, you basically signed saying that you "read and agree to the PSA grading terms and conditions below"<BR><BR>-Marc S.
|
Legal assistance needed with PSA possibly
Posted By: <b>carew4me</b><p>PSA's submission form contains the following statement: Exclusive jurisdiction and venue for any dispute arising from Customer's submission of cards to PSA shall be in the Superior Court, Orange County, California, and Customer agrees to waive any right to a trial by jury in any such action, and further agrees that the prevailing party in any such action shall be entitled to an award of its attorney's fees and costs. <BR><BR>
|
Legal assistance needed with PSA possibly
Posted By: <b>carew4me</b><p>Weird, we must have been gathering that response at almost the same extact time!<BR><BR>Anyway, if you lose you may have to cover their attorny fee's. Which will be well north of $6000.
|
Legal assistance needed with PSA possibly
Posted By: <b>MW</b><p>I very much agree with Adam. I think the burden of proof will be much greater for PSA than it will for Dan. Also, should this "case" end up in a courtroom, I DO think that Dan's testimony (at least in terms of content) will be very straightforward and believable.<BR><BR>Dan, my advice, if you choose to go the legal route, is to begin a process (usually takes about a month) of searching for the proper individual and law firm to represent you. Keep in mind that you may have to contact 20 or so law offices to find the proper attorney and that, after attorney's fees (should you lose), you may end up with nothing. I think that with a knowledgeable attorney from a well-respected law firm, however, you have a very good chance of winning (based on what I've read here) and recovering all of your fees and losses.<BR><BR>I should also note that even if you lose, PSA will probably do everything it can to avoid the bad publicity. If you decide to file a lawsuit and this case goes to trial (bench or jury), I can only imagine the negative impact it will have on the company (Collectors Universe) and the number of trade publications that will write about it. After all, it WILL be major hobby news since thousands of submitters will be potentially affected by the proceedings and decision.
|
Legal assistance needed with PSA possibly
Posted By: <b>dan mckee</b><p>Story of my life! Boy how convenient is that! the fine print stating we can take your card and you can't do anything about it! Unreal. I guess I will just have to make that part of my "loudmouth" campaign. Any suggestions friends? I could really use a hand here. dan.
|
Legal assistance needed with PSA possibly
Posted By: <b>dan mckee</b><p>ok, sounds good. should look where? that is basically why I came here, also to inform my vintage collecting comrads but to hopefully find a possible lawyer or a combined law effort. I do have some money to spend but really do not know where or how to look for a lawyer. Dan.
|
Legal assistance needed with PSA possibly
Posted By: <b>MW</b><p>It's probably pretty obvious, but if PSA is sued and found liable, submissions to the company will probably greatly decrease. After all, who on earth would want to submit to a company that loses valuable baseball cards and then denies it, either out of ignorance or incompetence?<BR><BR>Remember, Collectors Universe is a publicly traded company. Its books and methods of operation are already subject to very specific SEC regulations. The potential fallout from ending up on the wrong side of such a lawsuit might have severely detrimental effects on CU's stock price and the future financial viability of PSA.
|
Legal assistance needed with PSA possibly
Posted By: <b>Marc S.</b><p><<I should also note that even if you lose, PSA will probably do everything it can to avoid the bad publicity. If you decide to file a lawsuit and this case goes to trial (bench or jury), I can only imagine the negative impact it will have on the company (Collectors Universe) and the number of trade publications that will write about it. After all, it WILL be major hobby news since thousands of submitters will be potentially affected by the proceedings and decision.>><BR><BR>MW, though I would typically agree with your viewpoint, let me only play Devil's Advocate and offer this: For the extremely large number of cards that may have been affected through the WIWAG scandal, including how many unknown cards that have been sold through gradeandtrade and thepit.com, etcetera, I would say that that scandal, which is of more hobby importance and value than Mr. McKee's situation, has resulted in nary an affect on PSA. It certainly would be very hard to quantify any such effect -- but I can think of no major collectors that switched grading companies because of the scandal, any dealers that switched inventory because of the scandal, or any major difference in number of cards that seem to be traded on Ebay, etc. I personally see that PSA did very wrong in the WIWAG scandal (esp. since the holders have not improved), and I think that there is potential that wrong was done here. However, I am unsure if the negative publicity really scares PSA. Who knows.
|
Legal assistance needed with PSA possibly
Posted By: <b>MW</b><p>Dan,<BR><BR>Start by doing some online searches for law firms in the Orange County and surrounding areas. You might also want to call several libraries and see if they can obtain a phonebook from that area.<BR><BR>Keep in mind that you may run into many attorneys that will have no interest in taking your case. Eventually, though, you WILL find someone who will be very eager to see that justice is served.
|
Legal assistance needed with PSA possibly
Posted By: <b>MW</b><p><i><< It certainly would be very hard to quantify any such effect -- but I can think of no major collectors that switched grading companies because of the scandal, any dealers that switched inventory because of the scandal, or any major difference in number of cards that seem to be traded on Ebay, etc. >></i><BR><BR>OK, Mark, whatever you say.
|
Legal assistance needed with PSA possibly
Posted By: <b>MW</b><p>That's some really bad advice, Mark. I'm sure you could find plenty of attorneys who could effectively argue on both sides of the issue...which basically proves nothing. <BR><BR>The case should proceed on its only merits, not based on the legal jargon inserted in small print as a disclaimer near the bottom of a submission form.
|
Legal assistance needed with PSA possibly
Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>You see a decrease in PSA cards unless large numbers are set free from there tombs. The question is, is the number of PSA cards trending upward at the same rate, holding steady or declining. My suspicion is that they saw a noticable decline in submissions after WIWAG scandle.<BR><BR>Jay
|
Legal assistance needed with PSA possibly
Posted By: <b>carew4me</b><p>Marc,<BR>Spot on. Virtually no impact on PSA.<BR>In fact PSA numbers on average are increasing while GAI struggles even with the pedigree they brought to the table.<BR><BR>It will take much more of an issue to even put a dent in PSA as the market leader.<BR><BR>Remember, 99.99% of the peaople who deal with PSA <BR>have a fluid, smooth transaction. Then if they sell they reap the Premium that PSA cards demand and<BR>are further satisfied with their dealings.<BR><BR><BR>If WIWAG didnt do it, what would?<BR><BR>Scandals just dont have the impact they used.<BR>
|
Legal assistance needed with PSA possibly
Posted By: <b>MW</b><p><b>Excerpt from COLLECTORS UNIVERSE INC (CLCT)Quarterly Report (SEC form 10-Q), May 15, 2003:</b><BR><BR>"Sportscard grading revenues for the three and nine months ended March 31, 2003 and 2002, respectively, declined significantly compared to the same periods last year, indicating a continued degradation in the demand for sportscard grading."<BR><BR>I think what they really mean is "continued degradation" in the demand for PSA grading. Other major grading companies have actually seen an increase in submissions during the same time period.<BR><BR><BR>Also, I found this language (from the same report) to be somewhat interesting:<BR><BR>"In particular, the factors described in our Annual Report that could adversely affect our future financial performance include...increased competition from other collectibles auction and grading companies; the risk that we will incur unanticipated liabilities under our authentication and grading warranties; and government regulation that could cause operating costs to increase." <BR><BR>
|
Legal assistance needed with PSA possibly
Posted By: <b>MW</b><p>Carew4me,<BR><BR>I guess we haven't been reading the same financial statements and quarterly reports. Just a few minutes ago, I took a look at CU's Income Statements, Balance Sheets, and Cash Flow Statements from the last six quarters and I plainly saw net losses in five of those quarters. In the last two quarterly reports, I have also read language that CLEARLY indicates that PSA is one of the weakest links in the company and that significant decreases have been seen in PSA submissions.<BR><BR>On a hobby-related level, I don't think there's any questions that scores of hobbyists and dealers have become disillusioned with PSA and have either switched to one of its competitors or greatly curtailed their submissions -- all of which is clearly supported by CU's financial statements. <BR><BR>On a personal level, I can tell you that I'm no longer comfortable bidding on PSA graded cards on eBay for fear that I'm going to end up with one of the many thousands of resealed holders. PSA has yet to make their holders more secure and frankly, it's just not worth the risk. I know that my customers don't want overgraded or altered PSA cards and I don't either.
|
Legal assistance needed with PSA possibly
Posted By: <b>Albie O'Hanian</b><p>It would only be logical that PSA would suffer a loss in submissions. GAI has taken away some of their business. There are a some National Dealers that used to sell only PSA graded cards but now they have added GAI to their inventory. More importantly, Beckett has probably taken the lead in the modern market. Grading companies probably get most of their submissions from modern cards. Beckett has risen so quickly (on modern issues) and has taken away a huge percentage of the market from PSA.
|
Legal assistance needed with PSA possibly
Posted By: <b>.....</b><p>anonymous post<BR><BR>Elliot<BR>
|
Legal assistance needed with PSA possibly
Posted By: <b>TBob</b><p>Dan there was a link months ago on the board to a watchdog group with some clout. Can anyone provide it? They picked up on the ebay/Broadway Rick controversy and ran with it and caused some major ripples. Contact them for their help and publicity. Major corporations despise bad publicity, even from something others on this board say wouldn't put a "dent" in their business. <BR>Stck it to 'em Dan!
|
Legal assistance needed with PSA possibly
Posted By: <b>dan mckee</b><p>PLEASE PLEASE, if that group that he speaks of is still out there or around, PLEASE help me! I am borderline begging at this point! Dan.
|
Legal assistance needed with PSA possibly
Posted By: <b>Kenny Cole</b><p>In my view, the best way to find a good lawyer is to talk to someone, hopefully someone you trust, in the geographical area. Even if the person you talk to doesn't do that sort of work, chances are that they will know someone good who does. That's the way the legal community works. The referral network is generally such that you can be directed to a good lawyer who practices in the desired area.<BR><BR>Option no. 2 is to go to Martindale-Hubbell. I think that it is now on line. Some view it as kind of a political, profit-driven publication (I'm kind of there myself), but one thing that it does do very well is locate lawyers by geographical area, area of practice and rate them in legal competence and ethics. That rating is made by their peers. It can be fixed, but it generally isn't. The importance of the ratings is that they come from other lawyers who practice with them. When you get a rating slip, you leave it blank if you don't know them. Basically, you bump up your friends and the lawyers you know who are good. While it is not a foolproof system, most AV rated lawyers aren't dunces.<BR><BR>As far as the ratings go, you have probably figured oht that AV is the best. A means that the lawyers with whom you practice think that you are good at what you do. Most have a B, and I've seen a few with a C. I would think that was a problem. V means that you are viewed as ethical. Everyone has a V, so that doesn't mean much. There are many BV rated lawyers who are as good as or better than, the ones rated AV, but I would suggest that you start with AV rated ones if you don't have a better option. Just a suggestion.
|
Legal assistance needed with PSA possibly
Posted By: <b>MW</b><p>Kenny,<BR><BR>Some good suggestions.<BR><BR>On a side note, here are two of the dumbest things I've read so far about this unfortunate situation -- posted on the CU forum:<BR><BR><BR><b>"I'm sure that PSA's defense attorneys would argue that Mr. McKee was negligent for not sending it registered."</b><BR><BR>(My note: they could, but that would be totally irrelevant to the case. The issue would be the care with which PSA received the package and accounted for its contents. Unless I'm mistaken, a simple objection would over-rule any mention of Dan's so-called negligence).<BR><BR><BR><b>"Whether a video tape was running at the time the package was opened is irrelevant if the person doesn't know if the tape is running or not. In other words, as long as the person thinks he's being video taped then it's highly unlikely he would attempt to commit this crime."</b><BR><BR>(My note: I can think of no dumber argument than this one. Can you imagine an attorney representing PSA and trying to logically advance such a rationale for not providing better security? It's truly mind-boggling to me what random and desperate thoughts spring from such mentally idle minds).
|
Legal assistance needed with PSA possibly
Posted By: <b>MW</b><p>I'm not going to embarrass someone by listing his name, but I simply HAVE to post another quote from the CU forum:<BR><BR><b>"It's safe to say that more packages have been tampered with the Postal Service than complaints made against PSA."</b><BR><BR><BR>Besides the fact that this doesn't make grammatical sense, there's a certain element of logic missing here too. A nickel to anyone who can spot it.<BR>
|
Legal assistance needed with PSA possibly
Posted By: <b>david</b><p>is it the fact that the post office has been around for 200 more years then psa?
|
Legal assistance needed with PSA possibly
Posted By: <b>jau behrens</b><p>And don't forget the sheer volume that the post office deals with. PSA would probably ahve to be open almost 200 years to handle as many cards as the post does pieces of mail each day.<BR><BR>Jay
|
Legal assistance needed with PSA possibly
Posted By: <b>david</b><p>i dont know if you have done this already but i would contact as many high profile dealers and auction houses as possible(especially those in the area around psa headquarters) and tell them to be on the look out for the card. i would also send the dealers a scan of the front and back. with a rare card like this they are all pretty much unique. you might also want to see about filing a police report if you can and report the card missing/stolen. you might have to contact the police dept in cali for this.
|
Legal assistance needed with PSA possibly
Posted By: <b>dan mckee</b><p>Great idea David! I would think I could file a police report here but if anyone knows for sure, please tell me. Living in Maryland, I do not know many people in California. If anyone here has any recommendations for a lawyer, please lmk. Thanks again. dan.
|
Legal assistance needed with PSA possibly
Posted By: <b>Marc S.</b><p>Here is the Martindale.com Lawyer Locator site. I use it frequently in my line of work.<BR><BR><a href="http://www.martindale.com/xp/Martindale/home.xml" target=_new>http://www.martindale.com/xp/Martindale/home.xml</a>
|
Legal assistance needed with PSA possibly
Posted By: <b>dan mckee</b><p>Thanks Kenny! Martindale-Hubbell is online? I will check. You gents going out to the CU board are brave souls! I stay right here where the vintage collectors are. I enjoyed MW's posts from the CU board, too funny!
|
Legal assistance needed with PSA possibly
Posted By: <b>dan mckee</b><p>great! thanks again!
|
Legal assistance needed with PSA possibly
Posted By: <b>Trevor Hocking</b><p>Sorry to hear about your situation. I would be just as crushed. Because of your situation I just got done video taping with witnesses, me showing ever card (115) going into a priority mail insured box from the first card until it was handed to the post office representative. The postman was taken a little back by me filming this transaction, but who cares. In light of what has happen to you I just couldn't imagine 115 N172's getting lost or stolen from the collecting world. So the point is that your situation is not going unnoticed. By the way, they did not go to PSA and I will never send another card to them again!! SGC has the best customer service I have seen yet. They have handled this situation very poorly, along with many oh so recent, "MESS UP's" So chalk this up as a little less there're getting because of your situation. It was the last straw. Good luck and I don't care what anybody says a T206 Magie isn't something any collector would say, oh well it's a life lesson I have to learn from. It is another peace of baseball card history, a pretty important one, that is lost to are hobby. Hope you find it.<BR>Trevor
|
Legal assistance needed with PSA possibly
Posted By: <b>warshawlaw</b><p>"Sportscard grading revenues for the three and nine months ended March 31, 2003 and 2002, respectively, declined significantly compared to the same periods last year, indicating a continued degradation in the demand for sportscard grading."<BR><BR>What a load of crap. <BR><BR>What I relish about this form of corporatespeak is how it twists a statement that the writer needs to make about the company into some sort of vague statement about the business in which the company is engaged, so that the company doesn't look as bad. Someone labored over this passage, intentionally tweaking it to avoid saying that PSA's business is worsening. Instead, they twist the grammar and make a generalized statement about some amorphous "continued degradation in the demand for sportscard grading." Really? Anyone ask the other companies about their submissions?? <BR><BR>Translated into "normal" English instead of corporatespeak, the writer would have said: "We've made less money on card grading this year than for the same period of last year because there is less demand for our services." <BR><BR>So much for the post-Enron openness and honesty in corporate statements.
|
Legal assistance needed with PSA possibly
Posted By: <b>Prewarsports.com</b><p>I know most of the people on this board would rather do just about anything before they would badmouth SGC, but the EXACT situation that happened to Dan happened to me at SGC. They lost 2 of my cards, said they would reimburse me for the insured value, then cam up with a $20 random figure, never gave it to me and even charged me to grade the 2 cards they lost. This is the exact same situation that Dan is dealing with, on a lesser monetary scale, but with SGC. Point is, don't be so sure that SGC will handle anything differently, they handled me the same way PSA is handling Dan. SGC does a better job with their grading, but they are very very far from the Perfect alternative that most people on this board view them as.
|
Legal assistance needed with PSA possibly
Posted By: <b>dan mckee</b><p>WOW! Thanks Trevor! I really appreciate your support! I have never had a problem with SGC and actually, my few cards that I have that are graded and are keepers are SGC only because I didn't care about the grade and the cases are the nicest! I know SGC is strict and the Magie and others were for resale so that is why I chose PSA to get the better grade, boy am I paying for it! Thanks again for your note, I really appreciate this. Dan. P.S. Nice cards you have!
|
Legal assistance needed with PSA possibly
Posted By: <b>MW</b><p>Details?
|
Legal assistance needed with PSA possibly
Posted By: <b>Trevor Hocking</b><p>Yes Please!!! I'm sure they all have had a few mess ups, but not as many as PSA lately. I know what people would say , "PSA gets way more submissions", who cares! When it comes to my cards I would rather have the special attention.
|
Legal assistance needed with PSA possibly
Posted By: <b>julie</b><p>Mark Macrae says two things:<BR><BR>1) anyone familiar with Dan will immeiately believe him.<BR>2) It's time to take good note of his card's idiocyncracies--there're plenty--and watch for it to surface. Anywhere!
|
Legal assistance needed with PSA possibly
Posted By: <b>dan mckee</b><p>Thanks julie and pass my thanks on to Marc! Yes he is correct, it won't be hard to identify this card. I am filing a police report on Monday when I return from out of town. Then I will send out scans and pictures to the other grading companies and large dealers and auction houses next week. I want to have the card marked as stolen property by a police report first. Unfortunately, I still have to work and my time is limited.
|
Legal assistance needed with PSA possibly
Posted By: <b>Trevor Hocking</b><p>I didn't say those comments and do what I'm doing solely because of your situation. Even though it was the last straw. I'm just getting disgusted with grading companies who are only out for the submission fee. I also know that no company can be perfect in anyway, but when it comes to preserving baseball card history I think they could take a little more time and research in what they do. I think Jay has a valid point in that they have to only go on the evidence that's in front of them, but I know that if this happened with SGC there would be a big investigation and many phone calls from high up people right away, no waiting around. PSA is a totally different company now. I hate to see it happen but it was inevitable. I know that they will never fully fail just because of how many high dollar collectors are heavily invested in PSA's product, but I would love to see how much support there're going to get when times get tuff! I don't mean to be such the PSA basher here but man this is getting sad, at least in the vintage side of the company. (that's all that I can account for) I better go now I have to call my lawyer and five witness, I have cards to send out. <img src="/images/sad.gif" height=14 width=14><BR>Trevor
|
Legal assistance needed with PSA possibly
Posted By: <b>Prewarsports.com</b><p>I sent in 131 to get graded, and when they arrived at SGC they claimed to have only received 129. The cards they lost were a very rare Diaz cigarettes card and a NrMt/Mt E121 card. At first they were very nice and told me they would credit me for the insured value of each card, which was about $150. About 2 weeks went by and I got a phone call from the same person, I think his name was Shane, or Sean and he told me flat out that the deal he had mentioned to me before was OFF and that SGC's stance (according to a higher authority in the company) was that I was lying, and they never received the other 2 cards. They offered the generous sum of $20 credit (where they got that is anyone's guess). However, they never credited me and they even charged me to grade all 131 cards. I have never pressed the issue since I would never use a credit with SGC after this incident anyways.<BR><BR>I hope this helps Dan out is some way, I have bought several things from him and hope PSA ends up dealing more fairly with him than SGC did with me.
|
Legal assistance needed with PSA possibly
Posted By: <b>MW</b><p>Rhys,<BR><BR>Can you post an image of the two lost cards?
|
Legal assistance needed with PSA possibly
Posted By: <b>Prewarsports</b><p>I will try to find them on disk somewhere, otherwise I may not have the images anymore. This took place last October.
|
Legal assistance needed with PSA possibly
Posted By: <b>runscott</b><p>Any time there is a thread that involves a PSA-related problem, you always have people come in and say "yes, but SGC...", and then the standard comments inferring that this is a SGC board, which it isn't...and finally, the CU kids come over and throw in their two cents as well (this should be any day now). It was so bad for a while that many of us just refused to participate in any threads that said anything slightly bad about PSA, because we knew the formula. But we continued to participate in any threads involving SGC problems, because SGC has been much more open to constructive criticism and to improving their product and service. PSA, on the other hand (and some of their followers on this board) would prefer to just pretend that the problems don't exist, or to "counter-attack" with SGC problems, diverting attention.<BR><BR>Hate to disappoint these people, but if Dan's problem were with SGC, we would still be trying to help him and the basic look and feel of the thread would be the same. The biggest difference is that I suspect something would have gotten done about the problem and this thread would have died far short of 142 posts.
|
Legal assistance needed with PSA possibly
Posted By: <b>TBob</b><p>If all cases are filed in the home jurisdiction of PSA (based on the forum small print requirement you subjected yourself to in their contract), you might be able to run a search of the county courthouse records with "PSA" (whatever their formal corporate name is) as a defendant and see if this type claim has been litigated before. Just a thought...
|
Legal assistance needed with PSA possibly
Posted By: <b>RC_McKenzie</b><p>I cannot be a member of the jury because I have communicated with Dan Mckee and PSA before and have formed an opinion about each. They are both sort of my peers. Their case would need to be decided by a bunch of folks who don't have the sense to get out of jury duty.<BR><BR><BR>When I first got back into the hobby a few years ago, McKee emailed me to explain that what I was selling on ebay was not an Orange Border as I had mistakenly advertised it, but rather a Baseball Bats. <BR><BR>Around the same time, my first submission to PSA, a T213-2 Cobb bat away, came back a T206 Cobb.<BR><BR>I would take your case pro-bono and try to get it on MSNBC's Countdown show, but I am one of the few members of my family who is not an attorney.<BR><BR>Good Luck.
|
Legal assistance needed with PSA possibly
Posted By: <b>Jay Miller</b><p>Dan--People keep referring to the fact that, according to PSA terms and conditions, any litigation must take place in California. However, since this card was, according to PSA, not received, and therefore no submission form for it was received, then for this card you did not agree to PSA's terms and conditions. As such, you should be able to pursue a claim in any venue of your choosing. You cannot be bound by something you did not agree to.
|
Legal assistance needed with PSA possibly
Posted By: <b>dan mckee</b><p>Jay, That is an incredible point! Makes sense to me and I like it! Thanks for the advice. take care, Dan.<BR>Thank you also Tbob, that is a good suggestion that I will persue as well.<BR>
|
Legal assistance needed with PSA possibly
Posted By: <b>carew4me</b><p>Wow,<BR>Any love for poster Prewarsports.com ?<BR><BR>Seems as though he suffered a similar fate, yet where is self righteous indignation?<BR><BR>Interesting the silence. Come on guys, SGC admitted receiving 2 cards THEY LOST. They called the guy a LIAR! Even made him pay for the lost grading fee's?<BR><BR>Where is the moral outrage?? <BR><BR>I think I know. I think we all know.<BR><BR>
|
Legal assistance needed with PSA possibly
Posted By: <b>Jay Miller</b><p>That event occurred eight months ago. If it had been reported at that time I'm sure that people would have had similar reactions. However, that's not the point. The fact that SGC should have corrected a problem eigth months ago does not obviate PSA from the responsibility of responding to today's problem. This PSA vs SGC bull**** is just that---bull****. The problem is a grading company problem and the answer should be the same regardless of which three letters are picked out of the alphabet soup. If a grading company mistreats its customers it should be exposed, and pressure should be placed on it to clean up its act.
|
Legal assistance needed with PSA possibly
Posted By: <b>carew4me</b><p>So in 8 months, Dan's problem won't be a problem.<BR><BR><BR>Got it.
|
Legal assistance needed with PSA possibly
Posted By: <b>Jimmy L.</b><p>Looks like someone has a hidden agenda...<BR>Are they paying well at PSA?<BR>
|
Legal assistance needed with PSA possibly
Posted By: <b>Marc S.</b><p>Honestly, I am much more a PSA guy than an SGC guy (I am on the CU forums often as "mikeschmidt"). I think you are comparing apples vs. oranges, though, and just trying to stir up problems that no one feels compelled to talk about.<BR><BR>EVERY person I know has had some sort of problem somewhere along the line with a grading company. Whether it is on a submission, an overgraded card, a trimmed card being encapsulted, etc., every collectors runs into this one day or another.<BR><BR>The person was talking about two cards worth $150 that was lost a long time ago. Much different than a $6,000 card that was lost very recently.<BR><BR>Whether or not you agree with Mr. McKee on this matter (I think both sides have made mistakes and/or could have handled things differently), bringing up this other minor issue really is close to irrelevant. <BR><BR>Just my thoughts, Sir. The vast majority of people on this board are very experienced collectors that have much more overall knowledge of the history of this hobby than many of those over on the CU board. Even though I do not agree with everyone's opinion here, there are but a limited handful that post off-the-wall, inappropriate comments. I enjoy talking with people that I disagree with, as long as I respect them and they have the capacity to be persuasive.
|
Legal assistance needed with PSA possibly
Posted By: <b>Prewarsports.com</b><p>We did not make the earlier post to start any SGC vs. PSA debate, or even to make SGC look bad. We simply were reporting that similar situations have happened with SGC, although possibly not with the same frequency. The reason we didn't report it earlier is because the two cards we lost, while being nice cards, aren't worth nearly the amount of Dan's Magie. Believe me I dislike PSA as much as I do SGC, grading companies however are a necessary evil at the time being. We have done business with Dan, and can vouch for his honesty. With that being said, I would like to thank everyone for their sympathy about our two cards being lost.
|
Legal assistance needed with PSA possibly
Posted By: <b>Anonymous</b><p>If the grading company was SGC, and it happened to Dan, we'd still be doing whatever we could to help out. You, on the other hand, don't have Dan's reputation, and the road you're travelling currently isn't going to get you there.
|
| All times are GMT -6. The time now is 01:04 PM. |