Why do we have so much confusion on Bond Bread cards?
 

We have so much confusion on Bond Bread cards, because of so much misinformation ot there. Just look at what is posted on the Ted Z thread. It looks like some people just posted what they believe. Sadly many people were considered experts - who had first-hand knowledge. One problem I see in that thread, it looks as if you did not agree with the premise of the thread…you did not know what you were talking about and your opinion was wrong.

There was no way anybody could come to an agreement. Too many times people held this belief - it is my way or the highway. There is still very good information in that thread. What I want to do is compile the evidence we already have too new evidence and see if we can come up with a conclusion, at best one most of us when given the facts can accept.

We cannot ignore the fact that we have people who have first-hand knowledge who have collected Bond Bread cards and Sports Star cards first-hand. The problem is their information does not match. There are many different descriptions describing the cards.

I believe I can explain the difference, and why we see so many varieties of cards out there. You just have to look at the facts and compile the evidence. Stay tuned as I try to give live updates on this investigation. Report number # 4 up next. John

Part of the problem with easily analyzing this issue (issues?) is the origin and the assumptions in the conventional nomenclature. Bond Bread didn't make any of these cards, Aarco did. Bond Bread licensed them from Aarco, as is apparent from the many cards, picture packs and photos made from the same images.

Hypothesis #1: Bond Bread commissioned the 13 card set with back printing because they show up nowhere else in the same format.

https://photos.imageevent.com/exhibi...20portrait.jpg

We know for sure (thanks to some great research out there) that these were issued starting in 1947 with the card shown above first.

We know for sure that the 44 card rounded corners set was issued in Bond Bread packages.

https://photos.imageevent.com/exhibi...inson%201.jpeg

Hypothesis #2: the set of 44 was NOT commissioned by Bond Bread but was licensed to Bond Bread by Aarco. I base this hypothesis on the existence of so many other issues using the same artwork.

We know for sure that the rectangular cards were issued in boxed sets sometime around 1947-1949.

https://photos.imageevent.com/exhibi...zed%20Bond.jpg

[autograph not original, but try finding a Feller card w/o an autograph]

We know that the artwork was licensed to Elgee to make the perforated two-sided cards:

https://photos.imageevent.com/exhibi...son-Cagney.jpg

We also know for sure that the rounded corner cards were obtained and used by other companies for promotions:

https://photos.imageevent.com/exhibi...0cards%203.jpghttps://photos.imageevent.com/exhibi...0cards%204.jpg

Then there are the 'exhibit' cards:

https://photos.imageevent.com/exhibi...t%20Musial.jpg

The glossy photos:

https://photos.imageevent.com/exhibi...ize/img172.jpg

The photo pack premiums printed on paper:

https://photos.imageevent.com/exhibi...k%20Feller.jpg

All of which support my hypothesis. Aarco tried to milk its work in a variety of products and deals.

The classification and nomenclature of these various issues was erroneously decided on decades ago by Burdick and the publishers of the early guides based on flawed and incomplete information. Modern research and communication tools have clarified things.

Now, the Festberg cards. I believe that Ted did a disservice to the catalog raisonne of the hobby by calling the cards Festberg found "impostors". Yes, they are not "Bond Bread" cards. What they appear to be is either new old stock from an Aarco run that wasn't used or rejects from an Aarco print run. The idea of a counterfeit makes little sense, both practically and physically. Practically speaking, at a time when the originals weren't worth much, why even bother reprinting the commons? If you were going to reprint, wouldn't you stick to Robinson, Musial, etc.? And if you did reprint, why not do DiMaggio? Physically speaking, the cards are not re-screens. if you take a halftone print (card) and you don't have the original art and/or the original plates, the only way to reprint mechanically is to re-shoot using the card as the original. The result is a copy of a copy, so to speak, and is visibly different. I've looked at the Festberg cards and the boxed cards side by side and the fronts of the former are not made from re-shoots of the original cards. They are inferior quality, likely due to the card stock not being up to snuff.

Hypothesis #3: the Festberg find was Aarco printed but rejected due to quality issues and was probably inadvertently stored away rather than trashed.

Thank you, Exhibitman: You have given proof to much of what I have been saying. If you have a copy of the Festberg cards, can you post a picture of the backs, and front. I like to see what paper stock the Festberg was printed on. You will like my next post # 4. It goes into much of what you have just posted. John.

Report number 4: The original photos, layout, and cutting of the cards.
 

The printer had to have an original photo to print the Bond Bread cards. But how was this done? Only a small number of original photographs were used to print the Bond Bread cards. To produce the card they would use Photosats of the original photo. Why is this important to our investigation?

It all has to do with people calling many of the cards fake. Like the 1947 Square Bond Bread / Sports Star cards. Since they were a small number of the original photo, someone printing fake cards like these would not be able to produce the cards we have today, unless they had the original photo to do so. The only other way to print the cards would be a copy of a baseball card. Well not the only other way, but the others do not apply to this discussion, like photo-copies. And we know by using a printed baseball card, that would produce a moire pattern on it. No printer would be able to stop the patter of the moire, they could do a good job of hiding it, to make it look as good as possible, but not as good as the original. This can be done by changing the angle of the screen. But a moire would still be visible. With some practice even the less experienced person could still tell.

Therefore we can rule out the Festberg cards, the square corner cards as being forgeries or fakes. Mind you I am not saying these cards do not have forgeries, I have seen some myself. Even the grading companies miss this, I have seen cards that were graded and certified, that are obvious fakes, by some of the top grading companies. These same grading companies will not grade square corner cards anymore. What a joke.

What I am pointing out is to stop putting an umbrella over cards (calling them fakes) just because they do not fit into some category…like they have to be round cornered or printed on a certain kind of paper stock; just because someone says it was the only paper stock used for printing cards in the 1940s - 1950s. Or it is the paper used to print Bond Bread cards.

You want a fun exercise, take the time and go back to Ted Z thread, you will see a lot of fake cards posted as the real deal. But they are obviously fake cards. Comb the thread, you will be surprised as to how many fake cards you can spot now.

This one takes the cake for me, oh they are not fakes, but someone found the original printing plates and used them many years later to print cards. For a printer to have the original photo/ photosats or plates… many years later and use them to print from- is a million to one in my opinion. Having the exact same photo is just about out of the question, I can tell you from experience it would be very hard to save printing plates for over 20 years, so they can be used again.

When I said a million to one, the movie Dumb and Dumber came to mind. There was this line in the movie that went something like this: This guy asked a girl what's the chance of you and I getting together, she responded a million to one. What did he reply; oh so you're saying I still have a chance. Now of course that was not the exact line, I was paraphrasing. I hope you get my point.

Layout of the cards to be printed was done in a certain way, most of the time the cards would be laid out in a way to show cut marks on the layout, where the cards were to be cut, if the person cutting the cards missed the cut marks, you would then have the potential for different size cards and the images on the cards would appear to be in different position.

The layout and cutting of the cards explains why the exact same card can have the image on the card printed in what looks like a different position on the card. In other words, the image is not in the exact same position on the cards because they were cut wrong.

Therefore, for one to say a card is fake is all wrong, just because a card has a different position on a card, or a little smaller / bigger does not make it a fake, or that it was printed at some other time.

As far as the print quality goes you can not distinguish one card from another, or say it shows that a card was printed at another time. Just because one card is darker, lighter, faded or has more contrast, or spots on the cards. The printing process can count for such things during a run. The only quality we can look at…is to see if it is printed with a moire.

Images of cards cut wrong, card 1 top side, card 2 left side, card 3 right side of card. John

Report number 4: The original photos, layout, and cutting of the cards.
 

The printer had to have an original photo to print the Bond Bread cards. But how was this done? Only a small number of original photographs were used to print the Bond Bread cards. To produce the card they would use Photosats of the original photo. Why is this important to our investigation?

It all has to do with people calling many of the cards fake. Like the 1947 Square Bond Bread / Sports Star cards. Since they were a small number of the original photo, someone printing fake cards like these would not be able to produce the cards we have today, unless they had the original photo to do so. The only other way to print the cards would be a copy of a baseball card. Well not the only other way, but the others do not apply to this discussion, like photo-copies. And we know by using a printed baseball card, that would produce a moire pattern on it. No printer would be able to stop the patter of the moire, they could do a good job of hiding it, to make it look as good as possible, but not as good as the original. This can be done by changing the angle of the screen. But a moire would still be visible. With some practice even the less experienced person could still tell.

Therefore we can rule out the Festberg cards, the square corner cards as being forgeries or fakes. Mind you I am not saying these cards do not have forgeries, I have seen some myself. Even the grading companies miss this, I have seen cards that were graded and certified, that are obvious fakes, by some of the top grading companies. These same grading companies will not grade square corner cards anymore. What a joke.

What I am pointing out is to stop putting an umbrella over cards (calling them fakes) just because they do not fit into some category…like they have to be round cornered or printed on a certain kind of paper stock; just because someone says it was the only paper stock used for printing cards in the 1940s - 1950s. Or it is the paper used to print Bond Bread cards.

You want a fun exercise, take the time and go back to Ted Z thread, you will see a lot of fake cards posted as the real deal. But they are obviously fake cards. Comb the thread, you will be surprised as to how many fake cards you can spot now.

This one takes the cake for me, oh they are not fakes, but someone found the original printing plates and used them many years later to print cards. For a printer to have the original photo/ photosats or plates… many years later and use them to print from- is a million to one in my opinion. Having the exact same photo is just about out of the question, I can tell you from experience it would be very hard to save printing plates for over 20 years, so they can be used again.

When I said a million to one, the movie Dumb and Dumber came to mind. There was this line in the movie that went something like this: This guy asked a girl what's the chance of you and I getting together, she responded a million to one. What did he reply; oh so you're saying I still have a chance. Now of course that was not the exact line, I was paraphrasing. I hope you get my point.

Layout of the cards to be printed was done in a certain way, most of the time the cards would be laid out in a way to show cut marks on the layout, where the cards were to be cut, if the person cutting the cards missed the cut marks, you would then have the potential for different size cards and the images on the cards would appear to be in different position.

The layout and cutting of the cards explains why the exact same card can have the image on the card printed in what looks like a different position on the card. In other words, the image is not in the exact same position on the cards because they were cut wrong.

Therefore, for one to say a card is fake is all wrong, just because a card has a different position on a card, or a little smaller / bigger does not make it a fake, or that it was printed at some other time.

As far as the print quality goes you can not distinguish one card from another, or say it shows that a card was printed at another time. Just because one card is darker, lighter, faded or has more contrast, or spots on the cards. The printing process can count for such things during a run. The only quality we can look at…is to see if it is printed with a moire.

Images of cards cut wrong, card 1 top side, card 2 left side, card 3 right side of card. John

Abctoo- Michael Fried post #246
 

Abctoo- Posted a good thread related to our conversation, it's worth a look. I do not agree that is was not Arrco company that printed the cards. Thread #246 John
https://net54baseball.com/showthread...06%2D07%2D2020

To be clear.
 

To be clear, the above thread mention is a good read, but not totally accurate. I plan to go over what I believe to be wrong with that thread soon, for now just enjoy it. John

Report number 5: Festberg Discovery part one.
 

Report number 5: Festberg Discovery part one.
From my point of view, the original thread by Ted Z is out of date, and full of
misleading statements. To get to the misleading statements about the
Festberg find, we need to look at some statements made about Bond
Bread in general, and look at the differences between statements made
between Bond Bread and the Festberg find.

As I have said I think we can disqualify certain sets in the old Ted Z thread,
that were called “Festberg” cards, by going over statements made about
cards that were posted there. More on this further down this post. Get
ready butchiet t, this will involve you.

Quotes from Ted Z page 1: Quote #1: “It was the Summer of '47....my
sister and I carefully opened up Homogenized Bond Bread
packages, for a Joe DiMaggio, a Ted Williams,a Stan
Musial, or the new rookie sensation....a Jackie Robinson BB card.”

Quote #2: “These B/W cards were really popular with the kids in our
neighborhood. By trading & sharing our collections with each other, we
eventually realized that there were no more than 44 BB players and 4
Boxers in a complete set”.

Quote #3: “The only true 1947 Bond Bread cards are these 48 in this
general set and the Jackie Robinson set. All of which have beveled (or
ROUNDED) corners in order to fit into the bread loaf packages.
Unfortunately, other issues that resemble the Bond Bread cards that were
issued after 1947 and were never packaged in Bond Bread loafs
have been mis-identified as "1947 Bond Bread" cards. Grading Co. have
been most guilty of erroneously labeling these SQUARE "imposters".
(Emphasis mine - as Bond Bread cards).

Then he goes on to say: “Shown here are two cards from the 1949
(unknown) issue (see below) which includes 24 of the BB players depicted
in the 1947 Bond Bread issue and an additional BB player (or 2). Also,
many of the popular Movie Stars of that era were included. These cards
may have been printed by the same firm that printed the 1947 set.
However, their SQUARE corners and their inferior cardboard stock belie
the fact that these cards are NOT related to the "1947 Bond Bread" issue.
A recent find of many of these SQUARE cards (BB and Movie Stars)
suggest a 1949 issue date since Walker Cooper is depicted in this
col-lection as a NY Giant (Cooper was traded to Cinci in the Summer of
'49).”

Those statements above by Ted Z set the stage for the controversy we
have today. Right from the start.

My conclusion and re-cape: Ok, not bad Ted had first hand knowledge; he
collected Bond Bread cards right from loaves of Bond Bread. Look at what
Ted said: “there were no more than 44 BB players and 4 Boxers in a
complete set”. Making up 48 cards in all.

Ted also mentioned what he called a 1949 unknown issue, consistent of 24
of the BB players depicted in the 1947 Bond Bread issue and an additional
BB player (or 2). Also, many of the popular Movie Stars of that era were
included. How did he know how many cards were in the unknown set, why
not list them at this time? Also, notice how he explains the set; The 1947
set did not have any movie stars in it. Now get this, the 1949 set had an
additional BB player or 2, who were these players; why not name them?
Then there were also cards in the form of popular movie stars of the era.
Great, how many? And why not tell us how many cards in all - in this
so-called 1949 set? Why not give names at this time. I do not like the fact
that at a later time in the post these facts seem to be given.

Ted then said, "The 1949 unknown issue may have been printed by the
same firm that printed the 1947 set. They were printed with square corners
on inferior cardboard stock, and are not related to the 1947 Bond Bread
issue."

Ok stay with me, he goes on to say, “A recent find of many of these
SQUARE cards (BB and Movie Stars) suggest a 1949 issue date since
Walker Cooper is depicted in this collection as a NY Giant (Cooper was
traded to Cinci in the Summer of '49).”

Question, does a recent find of square cards, suggests the find happened
in 2009; Since this thread has a date of Mar 2009? Does this imply a recent
find to be say 2000. I wished he gave the date and not said it was recent.
Also notice about this unknown set it is from 1949. It is an unknown set,
but somehow it is given a date for when it was issued. Oh. we did get an
answer as to why the set was given an issued date of 1949…
It has to do with Walker Cooper, I will get to that. Ted said the set consisted
of 24 of the BB players depicted in the 1947 Bond Bread issue and an
additional BB player (or 2). Also, many of the popular Movie Stars of that
era were included. All good information to have. Just wished he was a little
clearer on the facts.

Pay attention… It is not called the Festberg find, and in fact there is no
mention of the 1980 Festberg find at this time. I do have to ask the question
would a find in 1980 (the Festberg find) be called recent in 2009, some 29
years later.

For now- since there was no mention of the Festberg find, just the unknown
set, suggest there were two different finds, a 1980s find we call “Festberg”
and an unknown set from 1949, found in recent years. Maybe sometime in
2000.

Let’s look at the facts and see if we can figure out these two sets of BB
card finds. Can we separate the two into different groups, or are they both
the same? It does look like Ted was describing one set, an unknown set
and according to him - it was a recent find from the time he posted his
thread, Mar 2009.

Again I have to ask what does recent mean? 5 years, 10 years- ok go as
far as 15 years maybe, but not over 20 years. It does not make sense to
say something is recent that happened over 29 years ago. Simple logic
would say the unknown set of cards were printed before the summer of
1949.

This simple logic implies that the cards were printed 1947-1948. Why would
I say 1947-1948? If Walker Cooper was depicted in this collection as a NY
Giant by the time of 1949 he would have been traded. A 1949 issue does
not make any sense to me...how can one conclude someone was traded in
summer to Cinci, in 1949 but the photo shows Cooper in a NY Giants
uniform, simple logic would say the BB card was made before 1949. Yes,
Cooper played for the New York Giants baseball team from 1946–1949, but
by the time the season of 1949 Cooper was in was in a Cinci uniform.

Ted was right, the two card sets are unrelated. Meaning they were not
made by Bond Bread, but they do have a connection. What did Ted say?
“The 1949 unknown issue may have been printed by the same firm that
printed the 1947 set.” He got that part right. The two sets were printed by
the Arrco Playing Card company.

Let go over it one more time, Bond Bread did not print their own cards. As
Exhibitman points out in thread #82 of this thread - “Bond Bread didn't
make any of these cards, Aarco did. Bond Bread licensed them from Aarco,
as is apparent from the many cards, picture packs and photos made from
the same images.” And it is a point I have made from the beginning.
One more point, I have always believed that the Collectors & Traders -
Sport Star subject cards had cut cornered edges. Look at the boxes, it sure
does look like the cards have beveled corners. Thet do not look uniform
like round corner cards do.

Now let's have another look at those boxes of Collectors & Traders - Sport
Star subject cards without the first card showing in them.
-called unknown set was printed around the same time as the Bond Bread
cards. We do know that the squared corned cards were issued in boxed sets sometime around 1947-1949. These box sets are what Ted called the unknown set. No mystery here…they were the Sports Star Subjects and Screen Star Subjects printed by the Aarco company 1947-1949.

I need to point out that Aarco was printing BB cards and the like in 1947
known as Sports Star Subjects and Screen Star Subjects, before they
printed any Bond Bread cards as - “Collectors & Traders - Sport Star
subject”

Notice the 2 boxes with 12 cards in each.
Aarco made 4 boxes with 12 cards in each... that comes to 48 cards, the same number as the:Bond Bread” set, no coincidence, Aarco just produced the same cards for Bond bread.

Do you notice anything different about them? The boxes were die cut with
windows in them to show the first card, the windows are die cut / beveled or
you can say rounded. This tells us the Collectors & Traders - Sport Star
subject cards had square or rectangle edges…they were not round at all.
I propose or should say the facts tell us that the unknown square cornered
cards that Ted was telling us about…are in fact the squared cornered
Collectors & Traders - Sport Star subject cards from 1947-1949.

These would mean that all rounded and die cut cards (beveled) edge cards
all belong to cards that were inserted in Bond Bread. But wait, we were told
there was a difference in the rounded and beveled edge cards. I was in this
camp, I did believe that “only the rounded corner cards were the only ones
that were inserted in the loaves of bread. I believed that’s how we could tell
which cards were Bond Bread. I believed that beveled cards belong to
Collectors & Traders - Sport Star subject cards.

Ted's own card post in the very first page of his thread proves that he had
indeed collected right form loves of bread, cards with rounded edges and
beveled edges. See example below. Some look rounded and others look
to be beveled (die-cut).

I explained how die-cut cards have different looking edges as the run goes
on, wear and tear. No one cut them with a pair of scissors, they are no
fakes. Just by the sheer number of die cut cards, no one could produce
that many fakes. Fakes are made for profit - cutting the ends off of the
Sports Star cards would not make you enough profit to go through the effort
to make fake cards, One has to buy cards and then cut them, then try and
resell them at a profit. I am not saying someone has not tried - but there are
way more bigger fish to fry them than wasting your time with small
potatoes. Yes there could be cards out there with scissors edges - but I
don't know how anybody could tell.

I want to make a point about a couple of statements made in the Standard
catalog of Vintage Baseball Cards, 4th Edition. - From the Bond Bread
category it says…“At some point after the original Bond Bread issue, half of
the cards were reprinted in a squared corner, 2 ¼ x3 ½ size on a slightly
different stock for purposes unknown.”

(Half the cards would mean 24 cards). Where did that information come
from? Did you know that Ted Zanidakis( Ted Z) made contributions to the
catalog. It would be nice to see where that statement came from, meaning
who was the person that contributed that part to the Bond Bread category.
Under the Bond Bond category it also says- “A large quantity of these 24
cards was found in a New York warehouse in the 1980s.”
Now I believe that is wrong, everything I have read says the 1980 find was
found in New Jersey. Notice this find was not called the Festberg. It just
says a large quantity of these 24 cards were found in a warehouse in New
York. We have to ask, is this a different find or is it the Festberg find?

In the same paragraph it reads- “To complicate the situation, the squared
Corner cards were illegally counterfeited sometime after 2000, often sold in
the high graded slabs by fraudulent grading companies.
Could these cards found after 2000 be the ones Ted called recent? “A
recent find of many of these SQUARE cards (BB and Movie Stars) suggest
a 1949 issue date.” Certainly since Ted post was Mar. 2009, a 2000 card
find would be considered recent to 2009.

Also, if the 2000 cards were illegally counterfeited, and sold by grading
companies, this could explain why I have seen so many forgeries that are
definitely counterfeits in slabs from grading companies.
Up next - Report number 5: Festberg Discovery part two. John

The Images: Photo #1 the two cards from the unknown issue. #2 Notice 2 boxes with 12 cards in each. #3 4 boxes showing the die cut boxes. #4 Show the cards in Ted collection from the first page, notice the corners of the cards they are not all the same.

Report number 5: Festberg Discovery part two.
 

Recap of Bond Bread and Festberg cards on what was posted in the Ted Z
thread: All about the edges of the cards (die - cut), the back of the cards,
and the Festberg discovery.

As I have combed through the original thread from back in 2009 - started
by Ted Z; I was shocked to see how much the information was twisted
around to fit an agenda. I was amazed at how so many different quotes
made - were just misquoted later on in the thread to meet with that
agenda.

I do not know if the thread started out to have an agenda, but it sure seems
like it did. As the thread went on, it devolved into someone or someone’s
own point of view. This agenda or point of view single-handedly caused
more controversy on the Bond Bread cards, before there was a thread.
Now I will say, I am glad for that thread, without it we would not have as
much information about the Bond Bread issues. It has given us very good
information. Believe it or not I have gained more from the false information
then from the truth.

What was this point of view (agenda)? Only the cards that Ted and others
had… are the only cards that are the real Bond Bread cards. All others are
fakes, reprints, not printed 1947-1949. Again this is my point of view.
I know this is not a nice thing to say, and Ted Z is not here to defend
himself, but as I laid out the facts; I believe you will see that if you held a
different opinion than the one the thread was promoting… you were wrong,
or just did know what you were talking about. These facts will come right
from the thread, that are not mine, but those who had posted their opinion.

Quote from thread #8 posted 04-04-2009, By: Ted Zanidakis:

“There is a significant difference in the cardboard stock used in the original
1947 Bond Bread cards vs. the subsequent (unknown series) of SQUARE
cards. When you compare these cards, you'll immediately notice”......
1....the 1947 cards are slightly thicker
2....there is a faint gloss on the 1947 cards and not on the other cards
3....the contrast on the 1947 cards is superior to the other cards
4....the backs of the 1947 cards have retained their original white
color.....while the backs of the other cards have a "toned" effect.

Take note what Ted Z said, “There is a significant difference in the
cardboard stock used in the original 1947 Bond Bread cards vs. the
subsequent (unknown series) of SQUARE cards.” Images provided by Ted. Image 1.

Quote from Ted Z, thread #212, 05-14-2020, “As you know, the original
1947 BOND BREAD cards have bright white backs. The re-printed (24
cards) from the "Festberg find" have toned backs. If the bottom Robinson in
your scan has a toned back (as I suspect) it has been faked to look like an
original 1947 BOND BREAD card by someone who rounded it's corners.”
images provided by Ted Z. Image 2.

Ted was talking about a post made by Gobucsmagic74 - post # 207,
05-14-2020. Where we do not see the backs, but he is very clear on the
images he provided - “The re-printed (24 cards) from the "Festberg find"
have toned backs.”

Question: how did Ted Z know there were 24 cards in the set of Festberg
find? Think about it, I will give an answer later, that is a subject for itself.

Quote from- Gobucsmagic74 - post # 207, 05-14-2020,
“Take a look at the example he shows as an original "Bond
Bread/Homogenized Bread" Jackie Robinson and note the subtle
differences in the cropping of the corners and the image between a Bond
Bread and a "Sports Star Subject". The first example (with white
background) (Bond Bread) is an example posted by Ted.”

“The second is from the ebay lot. (black background). The difference is
clear and evident. The Sports Star Subjects Jackie has cropped corners
which are much more "square" than the Bond Bread exemplar. Also much more of the "Dodgers" can be seen in the Bond Bread card, even when
factoring in the off-set/miscut. These are 100% not the same cards from the
same set, regardless of whether a third party grading company mistakenly
labels them as such.” image 3.

Too bad we did not see the backs of the cards. I do agree that the two
cards are not the same…but not because of the die-cut edges. It is
because I believe the eBay lot to be a counterfeit from copying, not from making another halftone from the original card. I know they are scans
and hard to tell; But luckily the images were enlarged, which shows that the
eBay is not a halftone but looks more like a continuous tone image, like
one you would get from a copier. Look at the enlarged images provided.
Do you see the difference between the two? Images 4,5,6,7.

With image #4 being the eBay fake. Image #5 Teds card showing the halftone dots. Image #6 Teds card, showing dots. Image # 6 eBay card no dots, the dots you do see are from copying, there are no distinct dot patterns.


Let’s go over the differences between a halftone image and a continuous
image. A "halftone" is a printing technique where an image is reproduced
using tiny dots of varying sizes to simulate different shades of color,
creating a continuous tone effect, while a "photocopy" is a simple copy of a
document made using a machine that directly transfers an image onto
paper, typically with a lower resolution and without the complex dot pattern
of a halftone; essentially, a halftone is a specific printing method for
creating realistic images, while a photocopy is just a copy of a document
made with a copier machine.

Depending on the quality of the photocopy machine, a photocopy might
appear slightly less sharp than a high-quality halftone print. A photograph
is considered a continuous tone image, meaning it displays a smooth range
of tones from dark to light, with every possible shade in between, rather
than distinct, separate dot patterns.

Quote #9 Posted By: boxingcardman, 04-04-2009. “Although Primo
Carnera was the world heavyweight champ in the 1930s, technically, the
card in this set is a wrestling card since he is shown in his wrestling garb.
Doesn't make a difference on pricing; he is still collected as a boxer.}
Hate to cause confusion, but the cards were sold in 4 boxes of 12 each as
"Sports Star Subjects". I have a scan of the cards in the boxes from some
auction years ago (don't recall which one). The front cards on the boxes are
DiMaggio, Hodges, Slaughter and Robinson.”

Notice boxingcardman did not post any pictures here, he said, “ I have a
scan of the cards in the boxes from some auction years ago (don't recall
which one). The front cards on the boxes are DiMaggio, Hodges, Slaughter
and Robinson.”

Quote #11 Posted by Ted Z, 04-04-2009. “ On the contrary....no "confusion"
here, guy. Indeed, confirmation of the SQUARE cards being issued as a
set of their own. It's been my understanding that the SQUARE cards were
1st available in 1949, and into the 1950's in small boxes. Until now, I have
referred to the SQUARE cards as an "unknown" issue. Thanks
to you, now we can identify them as the "Sports Star Subjects"
issue.....NOT a "1947 Bond Bread" issue.

Notice that boxingcardman makes no mention of dates for the "Sports Star
Subjects". Only Ted Z gave dates: “It's been my understanding that the
SQUARE cards were 1st available in 1949, and into the 1950's in small
boxes. Until now, I have referred to the SQUARE cards as an "unknown"
issue. Thanks to you, now we can identify them as the "Sports Star
Subjects" issue.....NOT a "1947 Bond Bread" issue.”

It is not boxingcardman saying that the "Sports Star Subjects" were not
issued in 1947, it is Ted Z saying that. Why is that, could it be Ted Z
“agenda”, to make the point that the square Sports Star Subjects were
issued in 1949 - 1950.

Ted goes on to say: “Shown here are 3 of the SQUARE cards. Two of
which are the BB/Movie Star cards....Lou Boudreau/Ingrid
Bergen and Johnny Mize/Victor Mature. Also, note the difference in the width of the Bond Bread Jansen card vs its SQUARE card counterpart. The Bond Bread cards are consistently 1/16 th of an inch narrower.”

Now I have a whole other problem in what Ted Z said: About the images he
posted. Ted Z posted 3 square cards that he implies are "Sports Star
Subjects" cards. He goes on to tell us to notice the width of the square
cards.

It might be hard to see the images, but the square cards he posted are
perforated. Image # 8. And in fact have their own destination in the Standard catalog of
Vintage Baseball cards. (“1947 Bond Bread Perforated, Due-Sided.) The
catalog tells us, “The manner of distribution for this variety of the Bond
Bread W571/D305 card is unknown.” Notice that the Due-Sided Perforated
cards are called Bond Bread.

What does Ted Z say, “Shown here are 3 of the SQUARE cards.” Which he
implies are Sports Star Subject cards. He makes the point that they are
1/16 bigger. But did not tell us… those cards are - W571/D305 Bond Bread
cards. Yes that could be the wrong destination for them, but that is a
discussion for another time.

The catalog does not call these Due-Sided Perforated cards …Sports Star
Subject cards, boxingcardman does not call them Sports Star Subject
cards, (why would he, he did not see them until Ted posted them), that is
Ted doing so. I can not say why Ted calls these W571 perforated cards
Sports Star Subject cards, maybe he just misidentified them. But he did contribute to the Standard Catalog of Vintage Baseball Cards. Let's just
leave it there.

Note the description from the catalog: “These different in that they have
two, three, or four sides perforated indicating they were issued in sheet
form, Also this group has instead of a blank back, another picture.”
Why did Ted Z not post the backs of the cards, was it because they were
two sided? Or is it because it did not fit with his agenda? The images he
posted are from 1947. That does not fit in his widow of 1949-1950.
Up next - Report number 5: Festberg Discovery part three. John

A few points/things I don't agree with here. Although overall it's pretty good.

My comments in red

Thank you Steve B - You make very good points. You are right, it is not impossible to make good forgeries. The point I was making is I believe we can rule out the Festburg cards as forgeries, or re-prints from the original plates sometime in the 1970-1980s. Yes you are right a plate can be used over and over, most shops did save their offset plates, but to save one for over 29 years, would be hard. Remember we are talking about Printing from 1947, much different than what we have today. And I cannot say how the cards where actually printed 100%. But the odds are they where printed through offset printing. Thanks John PS. I refer you to KeyMan Collectibles about photo stats.

https://keymancollectibles.com/photo...insonphoto.htm

Three cards in my collection.
 

Below are three cards from my collection. Two round corner cards and one square corner card. The image in the holder is the one with the whitest back, facing sideways. Just by feeling the two round corner cards you would think the whiter one is thicker, it is also the card that has bevel edges, as opposed to the other one that has more rounded edges, meaning more uniform edges. I used a digital caliper on all the cards, that all came out to be the exact same thickness. I need a new black light, so I did not check them out with one. John

John,

"Get ready butchiet t, this will involve you."

Did I miss something in that post. Was I supposed to do something?

I did not see what I was to be 'involved' with.

Cheers....

B. T.

Thank you butchiet t, no, it is coming, it taking longer to put the information together. I am glad you are reading along. What is your opinion so far?
John

I am encouraged by what I have read. But, I am not an influential person in the greater card collecting community.

I would like to see some others here weigh in but also understand that they may be hesitant to post. JMHO.

Keep it coming!

Cheers,

Butch

see some others here weigh in but also understand that they may be hesitant to post.
 

Thank you, Butch. My hope was others would post, so we could have a bigger pool of information to work off. I am working off my notes and going over the old thread. Trying to put together a coherent understanding of the Bond Bread cards. As I said , I have many questions, I would like answers to. I want others to post their cards, front and back with what they were told they were, or know what they are. Especially those who have bought from Dave Festberg. John

Disclaimer
 

Disclaimer when I give the Standard Catalog of Vintage Baseball cards as a reference…I am quoting from the 4th edition. I do not know if any information has changed with new information. Clearly there is some information in the catalog that is out of date. John

The process matters.
Offset lithography with the thin aluminum plates - those plates were rarely saved. We piled them up, used them for dustpans, support for bondo on cars, patches for sheds... then when the pile got to be big enough what was left nearly all of them, went to the scrap guy.
How the 1962 Topps plates survived is amazing. I knew the story once but have forgotten.

The other offset - from print blocks or type used very durable "plates" and those would have been saved. Like these, and a couple hockey ones I have
https://www.net54baseball.com/pictur...pictureid=2432https://www.net54baseball.com/pictur...pictureid=2431

Reprinting from these would be easy.

The way keyman is using photostat is not familiar to me. Photostat was an early term for photocopy from a photocopy machine using the process still used today that uses static electricity to get the toner to stick on the paper.
That's the Xerox process.
Looking it up, the photostat process directly exposed a roll of paper then developed it.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photostat_machine

What they describe is a part of the process of creating the original art to photograph. I guess it's possible they could have photocopied the signature onto a transparency, but with a full print shops resources at hand that would have been doing it the hard way.
Photographing the signature to make a film transparency that would become part of the mask would have been easy.

Photostats and printing plates
 

steve B, Again you make very good points. When I talked about the photostats and printing plates, I was trying not to get too technical. Most shops I managed did save up the aluminum plates and send them to the scrape yard. If any of these did survive , my guess is they would not be very good to print from, the image quality would not be very good, a point I believe you made. But yes, someone could have old BB printing plates. But plates from 1947 could not be used run re-prints from. John

How photostats were used in printing.
 

How photostats were used in printing. It was done in a dark room using negatives making a print on photostat paper. Much like you make a print of a photo from a negative, it is printed or say imaged onto photo paper. In this case the image was imaged onto photostat paper. That photostat would then be use to make a half-tone negative that was used to make the plate.

It was not a photocopy, but made right from the original image. In this way you could add the name right on to the photostat, thereby making a new negative with no loss of details. The photostat which is just a photo print would then be used to make the BB card. Like the photostat in Keyman article on Jackie Robinson. It has his name on it, it is a photo print from a photostat. I hope this helps. Photostats are photo prints imaged on to photo paper. John, PS one reason why it would be hard to find the original negatives that made the plate, is because they to were scrapped for the silver content in the film.

John, here's what's in the most recent (6th edition 2016) Standard Catalog for the Bond Bread and related cards.

The other page didn't load here's that one

2016 catalog
 

Thank you, Pat R- great work. It is almost the same as the 4th edition going off the top of my head. Thank John

The attached scan is from the Sacred 2011 Standard Catalog of Baseball Cards Edited by the His Excellency Demigod Bob Lemke.

Page 42 of the hymnal. The write up is word for word the same in both books. The only difference is that the 24 Square-Cornered Cards were dropped from being listed.

Take a look at the bottom of the right side of the scan.... 24 Square-Cornered Reprints.

Things that make ya' go hmmmmmmm.......

Butch

One of the problems inherent in this sort of analysis is that it is inductive: we generalize from specific items to the entire issue. That works to a limited extent when there are limited options. Ted's logic on the issues can be broken down as follows:

I collected the rounded corner, glossier, thicker cards from bags of bread in 1947.

I did not collect the square cornered cards on thinner stock from bags of bread in 1947.

Therefore, the latter were not produced in 1947.

You see the error? Putting it in a different context, I didn't collect 1972 Topps high numbers in 1972, not because they were not produced in 1972 but because I was seven and they weren't available in the two or three candy stores where my parents took me to buy cards in 1972. I got my first ones in 1977 when my aunt in DC sent me a shoebox full of cards she found in an antique store, and they were mostly 1972 Topps and mostly final series 1972 Topps (having multiple Carew, Traded and Awards cards in 1977 in my neighborhood in Encino CA in 1977, not a bad thing).

One thing I like about the hypothesis that Bond licensed the cards from Aarco rather than owning the IP on them is that it fits with the physical evidence that allows for other issues and variations that Aarco licensed, like the 2x sided perforated sheets that were made under the Elgee name. Similar to the many brand variations on the Mendelsohn cards in the 'teens.

Among the variations is the possibility that Bond specified what it wanted for its cards: rounded corners and a specific card stock and finish. My very first books were self-published before on-demand publishing existed, so I had to have them printed and then sell them myself at retail. I sat down with the printer and decided on the parameters of the product: the binding, the paper, etc. That's how printers know what to print. They produce proofs (the uncut cover proof from my first printed book is in a frame at my office), have the customers review them, and nail down the approved specs before they run the items. Printers can handle different stocks and finishes, so it seems reasonable that Aarco could make both cards that are intended for the bread bags and cards that are not, at the same approximate time, depending in the customer's desires. It also allows for the stock variation in the Festberg find: different specs. Rather than allowing for this possibility, Ted went with the exclusive conclusion he favored.

The Cooper thing is another inductive leap that never sat well with me. Cooper with Cincy, that's an anachronism for a 1947 card, but Cooper with NYG is not. An earlier potential does not rule out a later one, only vice versa does.

Also, I brought to Ted's attention that there are movie stars with the same rounded corner-different stock. He was surprised to hear this. Again, he never saw them so he was unaware of them. Understandable since we were just kids when we got our various product cards out of the bags. I never knew there were two editions of the Kellogg's ATG 3D cards, because I got mine from Danish Go Rounds (my mother's idea of a breakfast) in 1972 and had never seen the 1970 Rold Gold pretzel cards. Why? Because we didn't buy Rold Gold pretzels in 1970. Visual Panographics made both sets using the Xograph technology and licensed them to different companies at different times with just the copyright dates changed.

Now, before anyone leaps to Ted's defense because he isn't here to defend his positions himself and I didn't challenge him when he was alive, a word of explanation is in order. Ted was aggressively adamant about his analysis, and I (and other collectors who discussed it back in the day) did not consider it to be a worthwhile use of time and energy to battle with him over these rather arcane issues. When dealing with Ted, the least disruptive course was to inject facts when possible and not engage in the melees that invariably followed flat-out telling him he was wrong.

On the issue of the Standard Catalog, a bit of context may be useful. The catalog was put together by Bob Lemke using the work product of "principal contributors". Like me. Around 20 years ago, I got sick of the same BS in the Exhibit card listings year after year and Bob offered to let me try to fix it. The way Bob did it, pre-digital, was to send out a printout of the listing and you would annotate it and send it back. I fixed a lot of problems with the listings and added in a lot of variations, but my work was incomplete and sometimes inaccurate. That's the nature of the beast: we all try to build on and refine the work of our predecessors (shout out to Elwood "Woody" Scharf here). There was also a limit to what the editors of the catalog would or could fit into the header, so the catalog was not a place for nuanced discussions. Nobody who was willing to do the work knew anything more, so my version got into print and stayed in print. My work with the issues in my Exhibit book was partly done to better document and explain these cards. In other words, what has become 'canon' with collectors via the Standard Catalog is merely the collective work of collectors like me. It isn't fixed, it isn't divinely inspired, so it isn't the final word on any subject. There is only one final word on a subject, and we all know who has it: our wives.

up coming post
 

Thanks, Exhibitman, My upcoming post deals with much of what you just said. I
will make many of the points you just did. Thanks John

Report number 5: Festberg Discovery part three.
 

Here I will go over cards we can disqualify or rule-out in my opinion as Bond Bread…and cards that have been described or called the 1980 Festberg find.

These BB and Festberg cards are associated with Bond Bread cards…just because they share the same images. In fact they share the same script in the names on the cards, right down to the misspelling of their names. As we can read in (6th edition 2016) Standard Catalog) thanks to Pat R. This is where the hobby has made the mistake in identifying the true Bond Bread cards. Somehow because a set looks like “Bond Bread” cards and has the same images they became Bond Bread cards. Just because cards look alike does not make them the same.

Let’s nor forget that Bond Bread did not manufacture or print their own cards. They had to get permission to use the images on the cards. The company or people who had the images, probably licensed out those images to many different people and organizations to use.

It could be that Aarco playing card company had the rights to the images (license) and is the printing Co. that printed up all the many varieties of cards we have. But that is just a theory. We know the Exhibit Supply Co., printed up the 1947 Bond Bread Exhibits, which has many of the same images that Bond Bread used.

So what are the cards we can rule-out as Bond Bread cards? Any cards that were not inserted into loaves of Bond Bread. Except the Jackie Robinson 1947 Bond Bread 13 card issue.

We can rule-out any of the box set cards:

1 Set of 48 issued in four boxes of 12 (Series 1-4) labeled “Collectors & Traders Sport Star Subjects.” single sided, printed on bright white stock, die-cut corners (round). These are the original cards printed in 1947 before Bond Bread contacted Aarco Playing Card Co. of Chicago. The cards appear identical to the Bond Bread cards inserted into loaves of Bond Bread, the only difference is the paper stock. It is my guess that Bond Bread asked for their cards to be produced in the same manner, but with different stock, (cream white stock) using the same image.

2 Set of 48 issued in four boxes of 12 (Series 1-4) labeled “Collectors & Traders Screen Star Subjects. Single sided, printed on bright white cardstock with “rounded” corners, the same stock as the Sports Star Subjects cards are one.

3 Perforated sheets squared corners:“ 46 trading Cards Assorted Subject- Sport-Hollywood-Cowboys” These cards were distributed through businesses like Hess Shoes in Baltimore Maryland.

Perforated, dual-sided cards issued in Sheets these sheet have pictures on front and back. These cards are known as “W571/D305 1947 Bond Bread perforated, due-sided cards”. Although this set was given the title of Bond Bread cards in the Standard Catalog of Vintage Baseball cards-4th edition as “W571/D305 1947 Bond Bread perforated, due-sided cards” The very set Ted Z implied were 1949-1950 Sports Star cards. I guess he did not know that the cards were given the title of Bond Bread in the catalog, (4th edition). Ted Z did post his information in 2009, I do not know if the cards were designated as W571/D305 cards in early catalogs. If someone has a catalog from 2009 or older can you check and post what it does say.

No doubt you're wondering how can I rule-out the W571/D305 cards as Bond Bread cards? When in fact they are given that title in the catalog. Because we have new facts, we know the perforated, due-sided cards were given out as whole sheets. Under the name of “46 Trading Cards Assorted Subject- Sport-Hollywood-Cowboys”. Not as Bond Bread.

Please note my comments: "We know the Exhibit Supply Co., printed up the 1947 Bond Bread Exhibits, which has many of the same images that Bond Bread used." ....Should read- It is believed that the Exhibit Supply Co., printed the 1947 Bond Bread Exhibits, but this is now debatable..



I do plan to go over the differences in the variety of paper stock used, up next the Festberg cards.

"We know the Exhibit Supply Co., printed up the 1947 Bond Bread Exhibits, which has many of the same images that Bond Bread used."

We do? I've never seen any evidence of that. The physical characteristics of the cards do not match ESCO products. Please elaborate.

the Exhibit Supply Co.,
 

This information about the Exhibit Supply Co. printing what we call "Bond Bread Exhibit"" -come from old-timers I have talked to, many different articles I have read. I do not believe I have seen any of the information challenged. But I have not done any research into them. I just assume the information I had was correct since it's backed up by so many people.

Looking back, and reading some of what you have posted, I will update and edit my comments. Thank you for bringing this to my attention. Maybe you can post what you know and understand. I find it to be very interesting. To tell you the truth I never really believed the Exhibit Supply Co. were Bond Bread cards. Thanks to you, not only is there the possibility that they are misclassified and identified, but it is possible The Exhibit Supply Co. did not print the cards.

Thanks John

I'm not claiming that this necessarily pertains to the "Exhibit Bond Bread" cards but here are some ads for cardboard from 1946-47 that is the same size as Exhibit uncut sheets.


Chicago
Attachment 643557

Detroit
Attachment 643558

St. Louis
Attachment 643559

Chicago
Attachment 643560

Ads for cardboard from 1946-47
 

Very interesting, the P. C. Smith, Exhibit Supply Co. looking for cardboard, this shows just how much paper was in short supply. I refer you to post #63. "In 1947, paper was considered extremely scarce due to the aftermath of World War II."

But what I do find more interesting is in the last ad, they are looking for printers to print there two color post cards, asking for Letterpress Printers, it says they will furnish stock, ink and plates.

Letterpress Printers do not use plates. Offset Printers use plates, Offset press did print a lot of post cards in 1940s and up. I was in printing for 40 years, I started out in Letterpress printing. John.

the Exhibit Supply Co
 

Exhibitman, Here are some of my notes, In 1947 , the ESCO, Exhibt Supply Co. in Chicago produced baseball exhibit cards. Esco printed post cards size cards that were usually black and white. Sold the cards in penny arcade machines.
Some catalogs from that time suggest they produced sets of 32 or 64 cards each yeard., resulting in about 465 cards total. I do not have the source from where I save this information. They produced Exhibit cards from 1920-1960.
The Standard catalog of vintage baseball cards- List W461 Bond Bread Exhibits.

This popped up on my search today:
https://www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search/757388

https://www.deanscards.com/c/837/194...9jMvJjc1z4btMr

I Just did a Google search: AI Overview

In 1947, the Exhibit Supply Company (ESCO) primarily printed trading cards featuring popular movie stars and athletes, which were dispensed through their vending machines located in various establishments like theaters and soda fountains; these cards are often referred to as "Exhibit Cards" and are considered a collectible item today.
Key points about Exhibit Supply Company cards in 1947:
Variety of subjects:
The cards featured a wide range of celebrities, including Hollywood actors, actresses, athletes, and sometimes even pin-up models.
Vending machine distribution:
These cards were designed to be dispensed from special vending machines owned by ESCO, which were placed in public locations.
Frequent updates: New sets of cards were printed regularly, ensuring a constant supply of fresh content for collectors.

It is this kind of information where I had drawn my conclusions from. John

1980 Festberg find.
 

Information on the old Ted Z thread appears to be mishandled, misquoted and misdirected.

Quotes for Ted Z:

Post #8 “There is a significant difference in the cardboard stock used in the original 1947 Bond Bread cards vs. the subsequent (unknown series) of SQUARE cards. When you compare these cards, you'll immediately notice......the backs of the 1947 cards have retained their original white color.....while the backs of the other cards have a "toned" effect.”

At first Ted Z called the Sports Star cards an unknown set from 1949 -1950.Where does he get the date of 1949-50, I have come to believe it just so Ted Z can say the other card sets can not be from 1947?

The unknown set…has a toned effect, Ted Z used this description a lot, almost on every card that was not a Bond Bread card. (has a toned effect). Stay with me, I will explain this tone effect.

Post #11 “Also, note the difference in the width of the Bond Bread Jansen card vs its SQUARE card counterpart. The
Bond Bread cards are consistently 1/16 th of an inch narrower.”

Ted Z called these square cards- (SQUARE card counterpart)
1949-1950 Sports Star cards, he went on to say “note the difference in the width of the Bond Bread Jansen card vs its SQUARE card counterpart”. Yes they were different in size, because there were perforated, due-sided cards; they were not 1949-1950 Sports Star cards. We have to ask…why he did not show the backs, (toned effect) because they were printed on two sides, there was no toned effect, I am sorry, but he had to know what he was saying.

Post #53 “it's my understanding that only 24 cards (22 bb and joe louis & primo carnera) were in the sets that dave festberg sold.is this true for the set you have? you may be right about the cards in festburg's "find" not being "reprints"; however, illustrated here is the problem i have with the "festburg cards".

He then says, “Note the difference in the discolored cardboard of the festburg "find" card.”

Where did Ted Z get his understanding that there were 24 cards in the Festberg cards? He did say they might not be reprints. He says note the discolored cardboard of the festburg "find" card.” Stay with me, I will explain the so-called discolored cardboard.

Interestingly enough Ted Z did post images of the backs of the cards to show us what he was talking about, as he called them; 1947 Bond Bread, 1949 Sports Star Subject, and the Festbutg find. All have white backs except the Festburg cards, they have what Ted Z called discolored cardboard.

Post #72 “I'm still researching this Sports Star Subjects set. I have yet to find any of the 4 packets containing 12 cards each
that these Square cards were sold in. I've seen (or had) several of the individual cards (including the Walker Cooper card). Here's my Rizzuto and a sample of the Movie Star issue (circa 1949-1950.” I have a near complete set of the Movie Stars.”

Then he says, “Refer to post #8 in this thread to distinguish the original (1949) Square cards from the "Festberg find" Square reprint cards with respect to the difference in the color of their backs (white vs. toned).”

He never saw the Sports Star Subjects sold in boxes, therefore everybody who has seen them must be wrong. Where does he come up with a 1949-1950 date for these cards? The Sports Star Subject cards are from 1947. Notice he says,”
The original (1949) Square cards are from the "Festberg find" Square reprint cards. Reprints? Is he implying that all square cards are reprints and from the Festberg find? That just doesn't make any sense. Maybe I am misreading it.

What have we gained from all this: Ted Z implies there are original (1949) Square cards - that are from the "Festberg find." But are some kind of reprints.

What are we to do, to refer to post 8 to distinguish the 1947 original Festberg, from the 1949 subsequent (unknown series) of SQUARE cards. (“Collectors & Traders Sport Star Subjects” cards.)

How do we distinguish between the two? By the backs. “with respect to the difference in the color of their backs (white vs. toned).”

In this statement Ted Z implies that the unknown square backs are toned, not the original Festberg cards.This does go against all the images we have for the (unknown square backs) -which we now know are the “Collectors & Traders Sport Star Subjects” cards. Every image has white backs.
Note what Ted Z said in post #53, the Festberg cards had discolored cardboard.

Maybe Ted Z misspoke… I can tell it is hard to keep everything straight, I myself have placed wrong images with wrong information in this thread. But I always have tried to fix it. With Ted Z, it's like he wants to twist the information on purpose. Not to speak Ill of the dead. That is just my opinion.

Post #136 “These Bond Bread (Rounded corners) cards were available from Bond Bread packages to us kids in my neighborhood in 1947 and 1948. My research indicates that circa 1949 the Square versions of these B/W cards were available. These Square cards were never available
in our neighborhood. Rounded or Square, these 48-card issues were printed on good quality cardboard which has remained WHITE for almost 70 years.”

“Circa 1980, David Festberg (hobby dealer) discovered in a North Jersey warehouse a box (or boxes) containing 1000's of B/W (Square cornered) cards similar to the above cards. However,

1....there were only 24 (of the 48) subjects in this find.

2....these 24 cards were printed on an inferior cardboard stock, as these cards are thinner than the 1947 and 1949 issues.
And, the backs of the cards are "TONED", instead of WHITE.

Furthermore, when you compare the original cards (1947 & 1949) with the cards from Festberg's find, it's quite obvious that the original cards have a noticeable B/W contrast. Where the Festberg cards' images are somewhat "faded"....indicative of reprints.”

Ted Z said, My research indicates that circa 1949 the Square versions of these B/W cards were available. These Square cards were never available in our neighborhood.
What about the people who said they had collected these square cards in 1947. Oh that's right, those square cards were never available in his neighborhood, therefore they were only available only after 1949.

Where to begin- “these 24 cards were printed on an inferior cardboard stock, as these cards are thinner than the 1947 and 1949 issues. And, the backs of the cards are "TONED", instead of WHITE. I have personally gauged the paper stock with a micrometer and they are the same, yes some feel a little thicker, but they are not.

Notice that the backs are toned and not the so-called discolored cardboard. The next statement # 2…takes the cake, go back and read it for yourself.

Post #212 “As you know, the original 1947 BOND BREAD cards have bright white backs. The re-printed (24 cards) from
The "Festberg find" have toned backs. If the bottom Robinson in your scan has a toned back (as I suspect)
it has been faked to look like an original 1947 BOND BREAD card by someone who rounded it's corners.”

Ted Z shows us images of the toned backs of the Festberg cards look like. Ted Z called the card in question a fake because he thinks someone rounded its corners. Wrong it is just part of the die-cutting process, cards do not always come out the same every time. In spite of what Ted Z says, he even posted images right from his collection that look just like the sample from Gobucsmagic74. Again he says “The re-printed (24 cards) from The "Festberg find" More on this later.

Ted Zanidakis and others had posted about the backs of the cards many times…as the way to tell some of the BB sets apart. I do believe this is right, we have enough samples of images to go by. I believe we now can begin to separate the cards into what group a card belongs in.

I want to concentrate on the statements: The 1947 cards are slightly thicker, and the backs of the 1947 cards have retained their original white color.....while the backs of the other cards have a "toned" effect.

Too bad Ted did not use a gauge to see the thickness and not go by how thick they feel. You would think if the cards were going to be inserted into loaves of bread they would be thinner. As many people had attested to in the thread. I can not find the post, but many people said the Bond Bread cards were actually thinner than the other cards they collected. There are those who did not agree with Ted.

Now as for the “1947 cards have retained their original white color.....while the backs of the other cards have a "toned" effect.” There was no tone effect, just different color paper stock, the images provided in this post will prove this out. A toned card would not be so evenly toned through the card. From what I can deduce some cards were printed on white stock, bright white stock, Ivory color stock, gray shade of stock. You can see some toning on the images, but it is what you would expect cards to look like from 1947. Yes it is hard to tell the color of cards by just looking at the images on a computer.

Now let’s look at what Ted said about the Festberg cards: “As you know, the original 1947 BOND BREAD cards have bright white backs. The re-printed (24 cards) from the "Festberg find" have toned backs.” No, wait he said, the Festberg cards had discolored cardboard. Just as long they were no white. His own images show that the Festberg cards were printed on Ivory, or Beige Paper Stock. We have many images not just from ted Z that show this.

Therefore we can rule-out all the cards printed on any other paper stock than Ivory or Beige stock. Like the cards butchie t posted. In the next post I will go over these cards in more detail.

Quote from Post #412 -from butchie t: “Here is my Jackie Robinson, front and back for comparison. I purchased this along with the other 23 way back in May of 1990 from the Baseball Card Society. What I know up to now, it is part of the Festberg find.”

This question is for butchie t: how did you come to believe your cards are from the Festberg find? I will have more questions in upcoming posts for you butchie t. John

Images- first is Bond Bread and Collectors & Traders Sport Star Subjects. second Bond Bread and Festberg. third is Bond Bread, Collectors & Traders Sport Star Subjects, Festberg. forth squared Collectors & Traders Sport Star Subjects. Remember the images are not true colors, you need the originals to see that, use for comparison only.

Images on computer can have different colors.
 

Images of the Festberg cards, look at how the images can appear different in color. Understand the images we see are not the true color. But we can use these cards as a guide, if you see Ivory or Beige color cards- I would place them in the Festberg find. John

PS the image in the middle shows a Bond Bread card with a Festberg card.

None of that ties ESCO to these cards. More important are the indicators that these are not an ESCO product. The 'Bond Bread' cards are on a different stock and have different dimensions than Exhibit cards. Physically, there is nothing to tie them to the ESCO products except approximate size. Also, every example of an ESCO product that was made for a specific promotion for another company uses the ESCO base set with a back-printed ad: Dad's Cookies, Pittsburgh Post-Gazette, Triple Nickel Books. Some have stamped backs, like the Holloway Black Cow Sucker promotion. The only Exhibit cards that look remotely like these are the Canadian cards from 1953 and the origins of that set are not entirely clear. It uses ESCO-created images but they are 2nd generation with a number added in a small diamond at the bottom:

https://photos.imageevent.com/exhibi...it%20Irvin.jpg

Exhibit cards
 

Exhibitman- I was not showing proof that ESCO -printing the Exhibit cards, I was just showing you why I did believe that the Exhibit cards were printed by ESCO. I now believe that we can say we do not know who printed the Exhibit cards. John

Color on cards
 

Ted Z did post the backs of four cards, in post#32. I reposed them here. But it
would be best to go back to the original post for a better look.

As he called the cards:
1 1947 Bond Bread
2 1949 Sports Star Subject
3 1947 Bond Bread
4 card from Festburg find.


Notice the Bond Breads cards are cream white. 1949 Sports Star Subject card is also a cream white. But the Festburg card looks more Ivory or Beige. What Ted Z called toned. John

Color on cards.
 

To go along with the four cards Ted Z posted; there is also the 1947 original “Collectors & Traders Sport Star Subjects.” and the “Collectors & Traders Screen Star Subjects". Both of these sets were printed in 1947 before Bond Bread cards, on bright white stock. John
Below are two Collectors & Traders cards, on bright white stock, compared to Bond Bread, and Collectors & Traders on cream white stock.

Stating my case
 

Post # 28 by David M- "Ted, I was one of those that bought a "set" from David Festberg back in the 1980's. I believe it is unlikely that anyone reprinted these cards and then stuck them in a warehouse. It seems more likely that they were leftovers from the "Sports Star Subjects" issue that Mr. Festberg then found stored. You said the cards David sold were inferior to the originals in print quality and contrast but how do they compare to the "Sports Star Subjects" cards. Are they the same? I guess that leaves us with the other question. Where do we think the combo cards came from?"

Ted Z responded in post #32 To David M. "You may be right about the cards in Festburg's "find" not being "Reprints"; however, illustrated here is the problem I have with the "Festburg cards".


I will go over the (illustrated images) posted by Ted Z in the next post. John

The (illustrated images) posted by Ted Z.
 

Post #32. Ted Z posted the images below. The first image he says is a 1947 Bond Bread card. The second image he says is from, 1949 Sports Star Subjects. The third image he says is 1947 Bond Bread card. The forth he says is, from the Festburg "find" card.

Ted Z- “however, illustrated here is the problem I have
with the "Festburg cards". I do not see a problem with the quality of the image on the Festburg cards. But the image he posted as 1949 Sports Star, you can see poor print quality on this, perhaps he named the cards wrong, it happens…I have done it.

Therefore, let's go on the premise that the Sports Star card with poor quality printing was to be the Festburg card. For one, that is just one image showing poor quality printing, there are many other images of the Festburg cards showing good print quality. We went over how the printing process can account for bad print quality in a run.

But take a good look at that image, (second image). They card does not look like a poor image card ,but I believe it is a forgery -it looks like a digital copy of the first. He posted side by side images, again the first image he says is 1947 Bond Bread, the second is a 1949 Sports Star Subject card. If this is true, then the Sports Star card shown, could be a digital copy. John

John,

My answer to you on the 'why I believed' is based on:
1. Ignorance
2. Not enough information coming into that thread back then.
3. The letter I received when I was a member of the Baseball Card Society. Assumption my my part connecting Festberg to my card set.

Excerpt here (Page 2 of what I called the Feldstein Letter(he wrote it.):

"All the baseball cards they produced that weren't put in bread
packages were stored in a dusty warehouse and, quite literally,
forgotten about when they went out of business. Many years later a
famous collector discovered the cards in the warehouse and snapped up
all of them. He died a few months ago and his widow offered us the
card sets that remained. "

///Question: Has there ever been a determination of who this famous collector is? (Since it was possibly not Festburg?)///

In my quest to find out more about this set I bought back in 1990, I searched and came across this website... And the famous or infamous thread on the Bond Card questions. Based on what I read and my ignorance, I applied the find to the Festburg Find.

I joined the site at that time and made my initial posts of what I had purchased.

I could not tie the color of back of my cards to anything substantial, so, I figured Festburg was the logical fit at the time, based solely on the thread.

While I may have changed my opinion since then, I'm still not exactly sure the origin of what I have. That is just me either hoping or injected doubt from additional information that has been discussed after that thread was basically closed.


One thing I have outstanding questions I have not seen discussed is card stock used and the thickness of a card stock from a bond Bread card verses a Sports Star Subject set, verses a Festberg find card.

My thoughts on this:

1. All three card stock thicknesses are different.
2. Bond and Sports card stock measure the same thickness
3. Sports card stock and the Festberg card stock are the same thickness.

There is probably another option here but I would believe that card stock and the thickness of that card stock can be a data point to rule in or out certain items.

And from all the above, my own selfish reason that I want to believe the set I bought can be designated and dated to the 47 era. Thus making my cards worth more. Right now they are a $255.00 oddity. Still ain't selling them though.

Butch Turner

I try to follow the physical evidence as best as I can when it comes to card classification and analysis. All of the anecdotal accounts not directly from the speaker's own experience are just hearsay. Ted said he got his cards out of bread bags in 1947, that's entirely credible eyewitness testimony. Sone guy telling some guy that a third guy told him something, not credible evidence.

Physical Evidence
 

Exhibitman- I do agree with you about credible eyewitness testimony. I talked to old-timers who said they collected Exhibit cards from Exhibit (ESCO) arcade machines. Images like the images we call Bond Bread, this is a credible eyewitness account, not some guy telling some guy who told me.

That is why I never really believed the Exhibit cards were Bond Bread cards. This is not proof that ESCO printed the Exhibit cards. But - that the images on the Bond Bread cards were used on other printed cards.

Back then I never kept good records like, the names or places on who told me what. My notes say something like this: I met this guy at the Eastpoint show who said, “I remember getting cards that looked like that from the Exhibit penny arcade machines.” This is after I showed some 8x10 black white photos. Since then I have matched many of my photos to BB cards, I am talking about the exact same images. Like Exhibit cards, but photo that match the cards. John

PS I will post the images that I believed I showed, if this would help.

Exhibit card: Notice it says- An Exhibit card in the bottom left corner, and Made in the USA in the bottom right corner. John

Photo
 

This is the photo I have. It is an 8x10, John

Photo and Exhibit card.

Help with research.
 

Today, looking over the information and trying to put together the next post: as you guys know, I am gathering information as I go along.
I stumbled across something today that I would like to look into. If anybody has cards of Screen Star Subjects can you please post those images of the front and back of the cards, along with how and when you collect them. John

Hi this is David Festberg’s daughter, I’m trying to track him down. Does anyone have any information where he is and how I could get in touch?

"An Exhibit Card" is on the new cards in the 1949 print run. Some cards were run multiple years. Some the company scratched out the legend and ran the cards again:

https://photos.imageevent.com/exhibi...ize/Doby_1.jpg
https://photos.imageevent.com/exhibi...comparison.jpg
https://photos.imageevent.com/exhibi...ebsize/002.jpg

And as long as I am on it, the base images used to make Exhibit cards were hand-edited and annotated. Here are a few:

https://photos.imageevent.com/exhibi...t%20Maglie.jpg
https://photos.imageevent.com/exhibi...%20Lucille.jpg
https://photos.imageevent.com/exhibi...%20Art%201.jpg
https://photos.imageevent.com/exhibi...bsize/Marx.jpg

Question
 

Exhibitman- very nice Exhibit cards. I think there is some confusion by what I said. I never thought that the Exhibit cards were Bond Bread. I did not mean to imply that Exhibit cards were the same as the Bond Bread cards. What I said was: "Let’s nor forget that Bond Bread did not manufacture or print their own cards. They had to get permission to use the images on the cards. The company or people who had the images, probably licensed out those images to many different people and organizations to use.

It could be that Aarco playing card company had the rights to the images (license) and is the printing Co. that printed up all the many varieties of cards we have. But that is just a theory. We know the Exhibit Supply Co., printed up the 1947 Bond Bread Exhibits, which has many of the same images that Bond Bread used."

I only used the term (1947 Bond Bread Exhibits), because that is how they are identified. The point that I was trying to make ... is that Aarco playing card company printed the Bond Bread cards, and ESCO printed the Exhibit cards, which are identified as 1947 Bond Bread Exhibits. I am sorry If I imply that Bond Bread cards and Exhibit cards were the same.

My question goes back to my point... does this mean the Exhibit cards shown here are from ESCO? And Does this imply - that they printed the Exhibit cards, classified as 1947 Bond Bread Exhibit? Can you clarify? Thanks John.

The Baseball card society letter from the 1990.
 

butchie t- In post #2 through #15 in this thread, we were having a conversation on a set of cards you purchased back in May of 1990 from the Baseball Card Society.

Question: In the original thread posted by rdwyer-post 200, he posted a letter from the Baseball card society. Do you remember that letter and is it the same letter you posted in this thread #15?

Question: Do you remember Ted Z's response to that letter?

I quoted Ted Z's response and evaluation of that letter in the original thread in post #12 of this thread. I quoted Ted Z exactly word for word.
For some reason I can not find that post by Ted Z, but this is what he said about that letter.

"This document appears to be the evidence regarding the source of the RE-printed "1947 Bond Bread" cards which David Festberg discovered in a NJ warehouse in the 1980's. It is not dated, however in its text it implies a circa 1980's date, which does coincide with Festberg's find. Plus, the fact that 24 cards are being advertised. The original BOND BREAD set of cards consists of 48 cards.

When I first saw these cards in the early 1990's at the Philly Show, I purchased several of them. When I got home, I compared them to my original 1947 BOND BREAD cards, which I collected in my youth. And, it was very obvious, that these were inferior reproductions." TED Z

I read the letters, and nowhere does it say anything like Ted Z said!

Question: Am I wrong or am I missing something here? And is it because of what Ted Z said about that letter: you said in post #412- “Here is my Jackie Robinson, front and back for comparison. I purchased this along with the other 23 way back in May of 1990 from the Baseball Card Society. What I know up to now, it is part of the Festberg find.”

butchie t, I believe you have a different set of cards, then the ones we see all the time, and they are definitely not from the Festberg find, more to come on this, I will explain. For now I await your answers. Thanks John

UKCardGuy post 384-
 

Original post 384: We can use this as a guide.

Quote: UK Card Guy: “I recently picked up a lot of 7 "1947 Bond Bread cards" fairly cheaply. (I also got a couple of 1948 Kelloggs Pep cards with the lot). Based on this thread, I think only my Sheldon Jones is a true Bond Bread with the others being Sports Star Subjects

From what I can tell from the images; all the cards are from the Festberg discovered in a NJ warehouse in the 1980's. The backs look like they are Ivory in color, to me, if they are white then yes they are from the Sports Star Subject. All but the Sheldon Jones card, that is, we don’t have a good image of the back, but it could be a Sports star Subject card, it does look white, but if it has a cream white back, it would be a Bond Bread insert card. Sheldon Jones card is the fourth card with round corners. John

butchie t- In post #2 through #15 in this thread, we were having a conversation on a set of cards you purchased back in May of 1990 from the Baseball Card Society.

Question: In the original thread posted by rdwyer-post 200, he posted a letter from the Baseball card society. Do you remember that letter and is it the same letter you posted in this thread #15?

I remember that letter and it is the same on I have and posted later in that thread.
https://net54baseball.com/showpost.p...&postcount=377

I posted the letters that I received from BCS and that was one of the 2 letters regarding the set.

I can tell you for a fact that I received this letter in the early 90's while I was a member of BCS and stationed overseas. As you can see by the 3 paged letter, I had made my purchase of the set 1 May 90. I still have the invoice from that purchase as well.
https://www.net54baseball.com/showpo...1&postcount=15

Question: Do you remember Ted Z's response to that letter?
Going through the thread, Ted never really commented directly about that letter from what I could see. I did phrase searches using the below information, never found any matches.

I quoted Ted Z's response and evaluation of that letter in the original thread in post #12 of this thread. I quoted Ted Z exactly word for word.
For some reason I can not find that post by Ted Z, but this is what he said about that letter.

"This document appears to be the evidence regarding the source of the RE-printed "1947 Bond Bread" cards which David Festberg discovered in a NJ warehouse in the 1980's. It is not dated, however in its text it implies a circa 1980's date, which does coincide with Festberg's find. Plus, the fact that 24 cards are being advertised. The original BOND BREAD set of cards consists of 48 cards.

When I first saw these cards in the early 1990's at the Philly Show, I purchased several of them. When I got home, I compared them to my original 1947 BOND BREAD cards, which I collected in my youth. And, it was very obvious, that these were inferior reproductions." TED Z

I read the letters, and nowhere does it say anything like Ted Z said!

Question: Am I wrong or am I missing something here? And is it because of what Ted Z said about that letter: you said in post #412- “Here is my Jackie Robinson, front and back for comparison. I purchased this along with the other 23 way back in May of 1990 from the Baseball Card Society. What I know up to now, it is part of the Festberg find.”

Based strictly on the information contained within that thread, and my limited knowledge of the cards, I certainly made the assumption that they were from the Festberg find. I had no reason to believe otherwise.

butchie t, I believe you have a different set of cards, then the ones we see all the time, and they are definitely not from the Festberg find, more to come on this, I will explain. For now I await your answers. Thanks John[/QUOTE]

John, maybe they are not from the Festberg find. I know the cards backs that I have do not match the Festberg examples that have been posted subsequently. And even abctoo had several interactions with Ted as well. I believe abctoo is still active on this site and am somewhat curious as to him not weighing in on this thread.

Anyway, that is what I have for now.

B.T.

Getting to the bottom of this Bond Bread thing.
 

butchie t, thank you. I am on the track of your cards, I don't know if we can say 100% what they are, but we can say 98% what they are not. Still compiling the evidence we have to date. I hope to be able to give clear answers to many of the questions we have about your cards and the others.

We do need more people to post. I, too, am curious as to why people are not weighing in on this thread. Maybe because it seems that I am criticizing Ted Z. But I am very thankful for Ted Z, and admire the work he has done. I just want to get to the bottom of this Bond Bread thing.

I know I said - I believe Ted Z had an agenda, that is just my opinion, I do not want to paint Ted Z in a bad light, thanks to him, we can have this conversation but with the good comes the bad.

I formed my opinion of Ted Z having an agenda after combing through the old thread. The letter from the Baseball Card Society and Ted Z's response and evaluation of that letter is what had me come to the conclusion Ted Z had an agenda

I quoted Ted Z exactly word for word. I did not change or add anything to Ted Z comments. I know I copy his comments in response to the Baseball Card Society letter. Since I had posted those comments- I can not find them! The only reasons I can think of are: it was in another thread, or someone removed them. I do not know enough on how the thread actually works to say if this could happen. John

John, what you're looking for is in this thread https://www.net54baseball.com/showth...light=Document

I am confident Leon is not the kind of person that would delete a thread or a post in a thread. It is still out there somewhere.

That entire string was archived when Leon swapped databases or platforms, not sure which. But, it is in its entirety from what I can see.

And I know that you are not inferring in your comment that he did it, just that you cannot find it.

Regards,

B.T.


Great find Pat!!

I just searched the archived thread and looked nowhere else.

https://www.net54baseball.com/showth...light=Document

HAHAH!!!

Check out this eBay link I just came across today… Look familiar to anyone???

This person bought theirs initially in May of 89 from the same place BCS. Sooooo they (BCS) had a few of these sets…..which stands to reason.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/17675285453...Bk9SR8acv8f-ZA


Butch

Great work
 

A big thanks goes out to Pat R and butchie t. I think as we work together, we can have more confidence and a better understanding in the Bond Bread cards. I hope you guys agree. Thanks John

Card thickness
 

I am working on putting together a basis for card thickness and color of the back of cards on the sets I have. Trying to find an Ivory card that is from the Festberg card set and a couple of others I do not have. A foundation that will support the underlying idea on how to tell what we as collectors call "Bond Bread cards. John

The Sporting News letter.
 

While we are disgusting letters, and people who brought cards in the 1980 and 1990 from ads, Mfil5 posted in the original thread- post #140,141,143. The letter from The Sporting News letter, from the 1980s.

Quote: Mfil5 - “ Hello everyone, my uncle bought a set of these circa 1988 and we've been wondering for quite some time if these were the actual '47 card set. Alas we now realize that these are most likely not. My question is, are they worth anything and if so, what? Also did anyone else buy from the same people? I've attatched pics of the letter that came with the cards and of the cards themselves. Any info would be much appreciated.”

In post 143 Mfil5: “Thanks for the response, after doing some digging I found that the guy that my uncle bought them from, Stanley Apfelbaum, was a "controversial" coin dealer before being barred from that and then moved on to sports memorabilia sometime in the 80s. Did anyone else buy from Mr. Apfelbaum's Rookie Card Club in the late 80s? And if so does anyone know if they were legit? The whole story behind these cards is really interesting and I'm just trying to piece all of this together.”

I would say, the cards from The Sporting News are from the Festberg find by looking at the images. It appears that this guy Stanley Apfelbaum was pawning the BB cards off as the real deal. (BOND BREAD).

Why? I do not understand why? He should have sold them for what they were. I am guessing he thought the Festberg cards were some kind of reprint and tried to make a quick buck.

I did find it interesting in what Ted Z said: “Your cards on display in Posts #141, 142 & 143 exactly coincide with my list of the 24 cards in the 1980's find by David Festberg. Furthermore the backs of these cards appear to be "toned" (instead of bright white). Therefore, I would conclude that these cards
are not from the original 1949 issued set.” I just do not understand the “1949 issued set”. I have not seen any evidence for a 1949 issue.

“What are they worth ? If they get graded and the flip identifies them wrongly as "1947 Bond Bread"......it's anyone's guess ? ?” (Ted Z).

I would say to Mfil5, treasure what you have, you have a part of baseball history. Remember value is in the eye of the beholder. They are worth more as they are, they do not need to be graded and then flipped, or wrongly identified. John

Merry Christmas, happy holidays to all.
 

Can you guess what card belongs to what set? The cards are from my collection, and all five are different colors. As you can see two are Exhibit cards. But do match color in a set of "Bond Bread" cards. I am trying to buy the cards to match the color of the Exhibit cards I found one, looking for the other. More to come on this. Remember lighting and posting can change the way the card looks, this does not represent the true color of the cards, but it is a good guide.

Answer to come later. John

Belong to what sets?
 

Card 1: Exhibit card- light gray paper stock, 2 5/16 x 5 5/16, weight 5.10 grams, .6mm thick.

Card2: Exhibit card- dark gray paper stock, 3 ⅛ x 4 ¾ , weight 3.69 grams, .6mm thick.

Card3: Bond Bread, cards inserted into loaves of Bond Bread cream white paper stock, die-cut (rounded corners), 2 1/4 x 3 7/16,
.2mm thick, weight 1.22 grams.

Card 4: Festburg cards discovered in NJ 1980s- Ivory / Beige paper stock, squared corners, 2 ¼ x 3 ½, .1mm thick, weight 1 gram.

Card5: Collectors & Traders Screen Star Subjects- bright white paper stock, die-cut (rounded corners), 2 1/4 x 3 7/16, .3mm thick, weight 1.35 grams.

PS> White copy paper background, see how the white paper looks gray, the background should be white, but this is what happens when we post images - most of the time we do not see the true color. Use as a reference point only for the color for the cards. John.

Related Posted
 

I just discovered two posted that are related to the conversations we're having here: Once I get a handle on everything that was posted, I will go over some of what was said. Need time to unpack and digest what was posted. Their worth a look at. John.

https://www.net54baseball.com/showth...alsally,-Sally

https://www.net54baseball.com/showth...-Administrator

I didn't want to reread this whole thread, but I know somewhere it was asked to post cards that came in the boxes. I picked up this small group of movie star cards that came in a box labeled Screen Star Subjects - Series 1. These cards all have the rounded edges.

I participated early in this post while trying to determine if my Rizutto and Musial, one with a blank back, the other with the Bond Bread info, both with rounded corners, were truly ones pulled from a loaf. They were graded by SGC as 1947 Bond Bread. This thread has removed that concern, and I have watched with fascination as more and more info was divulged about the various permutations that has made this set so intriguing.

I wouldn't worry about Ted Z. He loved a good debate about cards and sets and on those rare occasions when he was shown he might have erred, he was happy to add it to his broad knowledge base.

I believe a special shoutout to John and Butch for their investigations about this perplexing set is necessary. I now know a lot more about the cards but perhaps the final story is yet be revealed.

GasHouseGang- very nice, thank you. Can you post the backs and tell me if they are bright white stock, or cream white. Thank You this helps a lot, more to come on these cards. John

Yoda - Thank you, I too believe the final story is yet to be revealed. We are close. John.

Yoda: I hope this helps.
 

Yoda: I don’t remember what answer I gave before, I believe the cards that have printed backs were for sale, not in boxes and not inserted into loaves of Bond Bread. The card with blank backs and rounded corners is either a card that was inserted into loaves of Bond Bread: if it has a cream white back. On the other hand, if the card has a bright white back it is from…Collectors & Traders Sport Star Subjects which came in boxes. Interestingly enough the Sport star Subjects cards started coming out in the 1930s. John

Pat R- I haven't forgotten you my friend.
 

Pat R: “My friend's mother purchased a set for him and he told me that she purchased them from an ad in the NY Times. There are images of all of them in post #53 in the old thread.”

https://net54baseball.com/showthread...-P%40trick%20R

Pat: What we now know teaches that the images in post #53 of the old thread (cards of your friend) are from the Festburg cards discovered in NJ 1980s- Ivory / Beige paper stock, squared corners, 2 ¼ x 3 ½, .1mm thick, weight 1 gram. It could be the same set… from the letter from The Sporting News from the 1980s…from Stanley Apfelbaum see post 140 in this thread.

As for Matt74 his cards may not be from the Festburg discovered, he says his cards have cream colored backs that are almost white. I have reached out to him, maybe he can post images of his cards front and back. I am thinking they should look like the images below only with squared corners, 2 ¼ x 3 ½, .1mm thick, weight 1 gram.

PS> The first two cards show as cream white: The Festburg card is the one in the middle. Again remember we are not seeing the true colors of the cards.


Thanks John.

Yoda, thank you for the shout out. But I must cede the larger portion of the shout out goes to John. He has certainly brought more light to this topic since he dared to wade back into this topic.

One way or another, I am just happy to have more supporting information to what we have here.

Best to you,

Butch

My apologies:
 

I said it before…but my apologies to Ted Z, and his family and friends. Every time I start going over the information we have on the Bond Bread cards, I think about Ted Z and how I might be throwing dirt on his legacy.

Like I said Ted Z had an agenda, “his way or the highway.” Thanks to Yoda, I realized it was not an agenda but a debate. Did he get something's wrong? Yes, we all do, but as Yoda said, “on those rare occasions when he was shown he might have erred, he was happy to add it to his broad knowledge base”.

I believe if Ted Z was here with us today he would be happy to add his broad knowledge to this debate and follow the information wherever it leads us. Thanks to all, Happy New Year : John.

John, tks for the clarification. My Rizutto has a cream white back and rounded corners, so I am assuming it went into loaves of Bond Bread. Regardless, I am happy to have both my 1947 Bond Bread rookies confirmed as inserts. Now that I know the facts, thanks to you, Butch and Ray, I am just going to enjoy the cards as part of my PC. John

I think we're getting a little circular and confusing here in regard to Exhibit Supply Company (ESCO) products, so let's just clarify:

1. ESCO made it own cards. See the Groucho original art and card in an earlier post. It did not contract for others' designs, like Aarco.

2. ESCO was not a commercial printing house. On occasion, it would specially print backs on its cards for commercial clients. Dad's Cookies, for example. The only known deviation from that is the Wrigley Field set of alltime greats made in the 1960s for sale at the ballpark. That was at a point when the company was circling the toilet and was desperate.

3. ESCO's main trade was selling vending machines and restocks for those machines. The cards had to fit the machines. It did not vary card sizes because [drumroll please] different sizes would foul the machine mechanisms. When ESCO acquired the card business of the International Mutoscope Reel Company (aka "Mutoscope") in the late 1940s, it reshot the Mutoscope designs to fit its machines. Here is a comparison:

https://photos.imageevent.com/exhibi...20v%20Muto.jpg

ESCo on the left, Mutoscope on the right.

There are some 1950s ESCO cards with Mutoscope PC backs:

https://photos.imageevent.com/exhibi...ope%20Back.jpg

My hunch is that these were made with old card stock that ESCO had from its Mutoscope acquisition and decided to use; waste not, want not.

4. There is no way that the "Bond Bread Exhibits" were made by or for ESCO machines. The stock and size are wrong. I do not think they are Mutoscope products either, because the size and stock are wrong for those machines. There are many arcade-style cards that ESCO and Mutoscope did not make. Whether they were vendable in ESCO or Mutoscope machines is an open question. Some examples:

https://photos.imageevent.com/exhibi...20Snookums.jpg
https://photos.imageevent.com/exhibi...ade%20card.jpg

E282 Oh Boy Gum, a Goudey point-of-sale handout:

https://photos.imageevent.com/exhibi...%20Dempsey.jpg

https://photos.imageevent.com/exhibi...l%20Lugosi.jpg

Coney Island Arcade, made to use in the arcade's many Mutoscope machines after IMRCo was kaput:

https://photos.imageevent.com/exhibi...e%20Gehrig.jpg

1962 Kennywood (Pittsburgh) Amusement Park:

https://photos.imageevent.com/exhibi...ds%20Paige.jpg

Pacific Ocean Park (pirated ESCO design):

https://photos.imageevent.com/exhibi...ark%20card.jpg

Anonymous 1920s design, poss. Philadelphia area:

https://photos.imageevent.com/exhibi...ze/Tendler.jpg
https://photos.imageevent.com/exhibi...endler%202.jpg

Exhibitman
 

Thank you- That was very informative and clarified what I was confused about. What size cards did they make for their vending machines? Very nice scans of the images. John.

Overview of squared corner cards we call “Bond Bread”.
 

As we now understand, identifying all cards that we as collectors call “Bond Bread” is not accurate. These cards are in the Standard Catalog of Vintage Baseball cards as W571. So what is a legitimate Bond Bread card?

For all intended purposes as Ted Z pointed out in his post, (1947 BOND BREAD and its "imposters"....show us your cards?) …only cards that were packaged into loaves of bread should get that distinction- 48 cards in a complete set with rounded corners.

One problem in the standard catalog is some cards that look similar to the Bond Bread 48 card set - were never packaged in loaves of Bond Bread. i.e. squared corner cards. These cards have been misidentified as "1947 Bond Bread" cards along with others.

Let’s put all that aside for now, and just focus on the square corner cards. One question keeps coming to mind! Can we know when the square corner cards were issued? We know the Bond Bread cards came out in 1947. There is this belief that cards similar to the Bond Bread were issued after 1947, (a set of 24 cards with square corners.)

While it is true the 24 card set was never packaged in Bond Bread and has been misidentified as "1947 Bond Bread". I still have a question: How was this set given an issued date sometime after 1947? Somehow this set of 24 cards has an issued date circa 1950s. What proof is there that all square corner cards were issued after 1947? On the contrary there is proof that some of these cards were issued circa 1940s.

While there were a lot of cards issued by Wildman Sons (W.S.), circa 1950s we call Trading cards. (Which I will be posting about in an upcoming post.) And yes, many of these cards fit the description of the “Square Corner” Bond Bread cards, but that does not mean they were issued in the 1950s.

Here is the kicker…the 24 card set and the 48 card set used the same images on the cards. And we have old-timers who have said they brought their cards that match the 24 card set with square corners right from arcades circa 1940. While it is true that many collectors speculate that they were dispensed in arcades, similar to Exhibit cards of the era all before 1947, has not changed the issue date of circa 1950s.

Knowing this information, many collectors will say the 24 card set was issued in the 1950s. The issued date of circa 1950s goes against first hand knowledge, eyewitness accounts. To top it all off, there are articles that say the 24 card set and many Trading cards were issued circa 1947.

Like the SABR's Baseball Cards Research Committee articles. “In 1947 another set is produced containing 24 of the baseball players found in the Homogenized Bread set, plus four boxers. The cards have square corners and are printed on thinner stock.”

https://sabrbaseballcards.blog/author/bouton56/page/9/

Many of these Trading cards- where Movie Stars, Western Stars, Baseball Players, Boxers, Football Players, Golfers) were issued before 1947 with square corners, before Wildman Sons (W.S.) issued their cards in the 1950s.

And there is no doubt that these Trading cards were never issued as Bond Bread cards, but that is what they are known by in collecting circles (“Bond Bread”) so for now let’s just call them that.

What I can say is the 24 card set was issued sometime between the 1940s and 1950s. I believe they were circa 1947. One problem is so many cards with square corners came out circa 1950s and fit in with many of the Bond Bread cards- I believe this is why people put an issue date of 1950 on the 24 card set.

As for the David Festberg find in the 1980s, square corners cards that match the 24 card set, it is now believed that are not reprints but are cards that actually were printed in 1947. Another reason I believe the 24 card set was printed and issued circa 1947.

This does not mean there are no fakes or reprints that were done at another time. In fact, I just picked up a Major League (MLB) original 1947 Homogenized Bond Bread Ralph Kiner Square Corner licensed reprint. I don’t know much about it, only that the eBay seller said it was a licensed reprint. Waiting for it to arrive, so I can have a good look. Does anyone know more about 1947 license reprints, what year were they reprinted etc?
John.

Why a 24 card set.
 

butchie t : I know you have asked some of the same questions about the Baseball Card Society letter,( BCS). The same letter you brought you cards from.

The letter says: "The 1947 Homogenized Bond set, which was printed for only one year, contained 48 cards in all (44 baseball players and 4 boxers. We purchased the best of the set--24 cards in all---from the dealers's widow."

Butch we know your cards have white backs, therefore I believe your cards to be from the original 1947 square card print. It also appears that the 48 card set from BCS is the same as the 48 Bond Bread set, round corner cards (die-cut cards). Both of these sets, square and round, were produced and issued in 1947. Now on top of that it is believed that the Festberg cards were also produced in 1947.

So many questions:

OK, BCS purchased the best of 24 cards from a 48 card set from a dealer's window. If only we could find out who that dealer was? How did it become that the 24 card set from BCS was the exact same cards as the 24 card set from the Festberg find?

Did BCS pick the best of 24 cards from a 48 card set... because they did not like the 24 card set (Festberg)cards? BCS had to be looking for cards to sell. Just maybe BCS saw the 24 card set, but because of the paper stock and the print quality pick 24 cards out of that 48 card set. So it is possible they did see the cards from the 24 card set from Festberg but liked the 24 cards from the 48 card set better. Could this be why the two sets have the same Images. That was a mouth full to say, I hope I made my point.

Why does the 24 set (Festberg) match the 24 cards from BCS? Why and when did the 24 card set (Festberg find) get issued? Wait, I should ask, when they were printed? Because they were never issued. Why were only 24 cards out of the 48 card set printed? If it was a 48 card set to begin with, meaning was the Festberg find a 48 card set? We know from the BCS letter - it was a 48 card set.

Could it have been a licensing issue, or because BCS said they pick the best out of the 48 card set to sell. Maybe the printer or the people responsible for the printing of the 24 card set (Festberg) believe they were the best of the 48 card set, because of what BCS had said. Did they believe it would be much easier to promote and sell a 24 card set.

Why even a 48 card set? A 48 card set was the standard number of a trading card set. This is most likely because of the printing process and the size of the press that was used to print trading cards. The size of the press determined how many cards would be laid-out and ganged up on a printing plate. Meaning 48 cards were printed on one sheet of paper. Thus, if you ran 5,000 sheets of paper through the printing press, you would have yielded 48 cards of 5,000 each, producing 240,000 total cards.

My assessment of why a 24 card issue: It could have been a licensing issue. But I believe it is because a 24 card set would be cheaper and easier to produce. Most likely they were run on a smaller printing press, one that would produce 24 cards on a sheet of paper. Therefore if the prees run was 5,000 sheets of paper, it would yield 5000 cards of 24, producing 120,000 cards total.

I do have some questions! If BCS picked the 24 best cards out of the 48 card set: How did they decide what was the best of the best of 48? Where are the other 24 cards with white backs? We only see the same old square cards whether they come from BCS or Festberg cards. Somebody had to collect the other 24 names in the 48 white backs square set. I have seen some of the cards out there but come few and far in between and come at a higher price. It may be because usually these cards are slabbed and graded by grading companies. John

Buying Bond Bread cards:
 

Going back to post 155 from this thread, I received the card from the seller's description: “ Major League (MLB) original 1947 Homogenized Bond Bread Ralph Kiner Square Corner licensed reprint.”

No licensed reprint…they do not exist, after some investigating the seller said he just posted what the person said about the card he brought it from. After careful review, the card fits the description of the Festberg find.

butchie t - you and I have talked about Alan Rosen. I received the card from the seller who said, “These cards are all original. They came directly from the Alan Rosen Warehouse Find. They ARE NOT the reprints that were made in the 1980's. Those have different colored backs”.

I believe you do not believe there was an Alan Rosen find of Bond Bread. I do not want to put words in your mouth, if you can, tell us about what you know About Alan Rosen and Bond Bread.


I have not found any proof of an Alan Rosen find that included any Bond Bread cards. The card I received from the seller - that was to come from the Alan Rosen find with different color backs…wait for it, the card fits the Festberg find.

Understand that I have found no proof of a Rosen Bond Bread find or reprints made in the 1980s, or any other time for that matter.
If anyone knows about or heard about an Alan Rosen find of Bond Bread, or reprints, please post your story.

I brought the two cards above hoping to find out what I believe the cards would tell me what they were. I believed that the cards would be from the Festberg find. I was right, sometimes you just have to have the cards in your hands. When I put these cards away I will have a great story to tell about them. It is not a complete waste if you buy cards like these, if you like to tell the story behind how you acquired the cards and why. I will sometimes buy cards that I know the story behind them is wrong. Does anybody else do this?

I also picked up two fakes, to show what to look for in copy fakes. Notice there is no dot pattern, one you get from half-tone printing. These are not reprints from a previous printed card, but copies. See examples. They are on the wrong paper, and were made to look old and distressed. Believe me you can tell the paper stock is wrong just by touching it. We all heard stories of how fake cards were soaked in coffee to make them look old, these cards look like there certainly were. Again when I put these cards away, I will have a great story to tell about them.

Item description from the seller: “1947/49 Bond Bread Bob Elliott, Incredible 77 year old card of the one & only Bob Elliott. ULTRA RARE!!! PSA has stopped grading these.”

Item description from the seller: 1947/49 Bond Bread Ken Keltner Indians. Incredible 77 year old card of the one & only Ken Keltner. ULTRA RARE!!! PSA has stopped grading these.

The Seller said, “Collectors should note that while many cards in this set have rounded corners or a “stop sign shaped cut”, a second version of these cards exist with solely square corners, which is the one pictured. The square corner cards are equally authentic. Cards for the baseball players and the boxers can be found with both variations. See pics for reference.”

“I am not a professional grader or appraiser. I CANNOT GUARANTEE AUTHENTICITY. This is data I have acquired from research and talking to people in the Vintage space I trust.”

I cannot say if the seller understood the cards were fake, but look out for how cards are described. Saying 1949 is a dead giveaway, looking old is also something to watch for.

I will say the seller did a very good job on packing and shipping the card. He took great care, therefore I don't believe he is selling fakes on purpose. John

John,

My comment regarding Al Rosen is based on the fact that if Al Rosen would have found anything that had to deal with a find that had the potential for them being related to Homogenized Bond Bread cards, he would have basically shouted it from the rooftops....and he would have run that find to ground over the course of the months following that find (or purchase).

So the dearth of any information regarding Al Rosen and a cache of 'Bond Bread' cards leads me to my belief that Al and these cards have no association with each other.

I will be more than happy to retract my position on this if any proof were to be presented......I just do not believe that any association will ever come to light.

Regards.

Butch

Thank you Butch
 

Very well said, I agree 100%. John

A lot of wild accusations.
 

In Post 156- I made a lot of wild accusations, just theory mine you. I was hoping to get some reaction from that post. I wanted to start up a conversation, because not as many people are interacting with this post as I believe they would.

There has to be more people like Ted Z, who has collected the 48 card set, the set that was inserted into loaves of Bond Bread. If so please post pictures, I have never seen all the images on the cards, I sure would like to. There has to people who collected the 24 card set before the Festberg find. People with first hand knowledge.

Haven said that - the wild accusation I thought would get the most attention was…”Could it have been a licensing issue, or because BCS said they pick the best out of the 48 card set to sell. Maybe the printer or the people responsible for the printing of the 24 card set (Festberg) believe they were the best of the 48 card set, because of what BCS had said. Did they believe it would be much easier to promote and sell a 24 card set?”

Stop and think about it, the BCS set was not for sale until the 1990s, although the set was produced in 1947. There is no way the printer or people who had the cards produced, would have known that BCS picked the best 24 cards out of a 48 card set. Understand I have found no connection between the 24 card set issued in 1947 or the Festberg find, to the BCS issues.

The theory that the people responsible for the printing of the 24 card set believed that it would be easier and cheaper to sell a 24 card set over a 48 card is believable. That is one theory we can understand as to why a 24 card set was produced in the first place. John