Another pitcher I've always been fascinated by is Dazzy Vance. He had such a strange career. Made his debut at 24 and went 0-4. Three years later he pitched in two games and then doesn't appear in the majors again until he's 31 years old, promptly winning seven strikeout titles in a row and a Triple Crown and MVP. He also won three ERA titles, all over the age 33.

Pretty incredible career.

Am I remembering correctly that Grove was really not terribly loved by the fans? I definitely remember that was the case among his colleagues. You have to wonder if that widespread unlikability factor plays a part in today's value/demand, silently carrying part of the blame for lack of value/interest in spite of nobody being alive to recall his unlikeable traits.

The same can definitely be said/asked in regards to Hornsby, although there are certainly a few very old-timers kicking around who played under him. I used to know some of his teammates and others who played under him. Absolutely none of them had a single kind word.

An interesting fact about Grove, though:

I sent out thousands of questionnaires as a kid, always seeking out the oldest surviving players first. The vast majority of these guys played from the 1900's-40's. The first question was, "Who was your favorite player while growing up?". There were the piles of obvious "Babe Ruth" and "Ty Cobb" (more so from the oldest crowd), but it was actually surprising to me how many men who grew up to be pitchers listed Grove as their favorite! Some were really informed, listing him as "Robert Moses Grove", so you know their fandom was true and remained into their golden years. Geographically, these players weren't only isloated to areas close to where Grove pitched, either. Just something I found interesting.

Arky Vaughan is one of my top 2 underrated players of all time. The other is Johnny Mize .312/.397/.562 OPS+ 158 and his numbers (and counting stats) would have been higher if he hadn't missed 3 prime years to WWII. His first full season back was his famous 51 HR / 42 strikeouts season. And Stan Musial cards are ridiculously undervalued for a top 10 all time player.

Mize's numbers were really crushed by losing those three prime years. Even so, it's criminal that he didn't make the HOF until 1981. Hard to figure why looking at the record.

Someone who is well under the radar given his stats is Billy Williams. Playing mostly in a pitchers era, he had 2700 hits, 426 homers, and a .290 batting average.

Not that I'm much interested in defending a New York Yankee, but I see now that not only was Bobby Richardson the MVP of the 1960 World Series (Yay Pirates!) but was a seven-time All-Star.

Moreover I can't find that WAR stat on the back of any of my Baseball cards which indicates it's some newfangled thing that wasn't around in his day. Do you really believe that some such newly hatched player valuation technique incorporating multiple subjective factors is a better gauge of Bobby Richardson as a player than the awards he was given during his actual career?

:confused:

Yes. Absolutely. Anyhow, he wasn't that good by many other more modern metrics too.

If he played in Kansas City or Baltimore you wouldn't have even heard of him.

Slightly above average player overall. Certainly not undervalued.

I wish he had. That way I could like him almost as much as Nellie Fox, Luis Aparicio and Brooks Robinson.

;)

Ha.

Nellie Fox 49.4 WAR (compared to 8.0).
Aparicio 55.9
Brooks 78.5

Even the much maligned Mazeroski at least hit 36.5.

BTW on Baseball Reference's ranking of second basemen, Richardson is .... 229.

Okay but you'll need something more credible than this WAR thingie to get me to accept this or that player ranking.

Hey c'mon Pete, no need to be so snarky with a newcomer! He is right though that there are a ton of threads on this.

I'm from Cincy and admittedly a homer, but really a lot of the Reds are undervalued. The fact that you can pick up a mid-grade raw Joe Morgan rookie for less than a blaster is a headscratcher to me. Frank Robinson has finally seen a little pickup with his key cards since COVID is great, but a lot of his other cards are still undervalued (e.g. that 61 you have).

The discrepancy between the Nolan Ryan and Johnny Bench rookies in the 68 set is shocking. Probably one of the greatest, albeit most overrated, pitchers of all time seems to go for 5x+ what the almost unanimously best catcher (I would actually throw Campanella and Berra in that conversation) is night and day from how breakers and wax-fiends price new product.

Perez, while not held in the same regards as the other "Franchise 4" has two very important SPs that imo are crazy cheap, his 65 RC and the 67 (which is one of the best looking cards of the 60's).

Davey Concepcion, while not a HOFer, was a very important piece of the BRM, a 9x AS, and was up to a few years ago, when he started doing a decent amount of private signings, a pretty tough signature. Yet his cards/autos are fairly cheap.

The only overvalued cards I see are with Pete Rose autos over the last few weeks since his death. The dude could probably add "most autographs ever signed" to his bio along with most AB's and Hits, yet his vintage auto cards spiked in value way more than Mays and Aaron, really wild imo. With that in mind both Mays and Aaron are undervalued outside of their rookies, and arguably those cards are undervalued too.

Some other undervalued ones... 49 Bowman Roy Campanella, 55 Killebrew, 52 Topps Doby (and really all of his cards besides the 49 Bowman), 60 Yaz rookie, and the 54 Topps Kaline and Banks.

The Old Fox
 

"Most undervalued? Edgar Charles "Sam" Rice, of course!!"

I agree Rice is undervalued after a great career, the start of which was delayed by personal tragedy and the end of which eschewed three thousand hits, which wasn't then viewed as important.

But I'd like to get an oar in the water regarding his manager/owner Clark Griffith:

Griff's SABR biography sums it up: Few individuals in the history of baseball can boast of a career to rival that of Clark Griffith’s. In terms of duration, as a player, manager, and executive, it was one of the longest ever, spanning nearly 70 years. Griffith is the only man in major league history to serve as player, manager, and owner for at least 20 years each. From his earliest days as a pitcher for money in Hoopeston, Illinois, to his last breath, the Old Fox, as he became fondly known, dedicated his life to baseball. A fiery competitor, he was outspoken, innovative, crafty and resourceful. He played with and against some of the pioneers of the game, was a star during its rowdiest era, managed for two decades, and was the face of baseball in the nation’s capital for over 40 years. Along the way he won 237 games as a major league pitcher, helped to establish the American League, brought Washington its only World Series title, and could name eight U.S. presidents among his many friends.

It wasn't intended as snarky, was trying to be helpful as there are numerous threads which have many people's thoughts on this very question.

Banks
 

Not so sure about Banks - Kaline compares favorably to him but most of his cards are considerably cheaper

Historically, Cubs fans have always shown more love with their wallets than Tigers fans, so that could have a bit to do with it.

To use the words "Baseball cards" and undervalued" together is an oxymoron anyway. I mean who would have anticipated that these cheap pieces of cardboard inserted as a premium to sell cigars and cigarettes, bread, bubble gum, breakfast cereal, etc. would some day fetch not just pouches but bags of silver (and even gold!) coins? Who would have predicted that such widespread daftness would take hold among baby boomers?

So let's turn the question around. Limiting ourselves to post-WWII cards since just about all of these are still in plentiful supply, which players are the most grotesquely overpriced? Should any names be added to those of Mickey Mantle, Yogi Berra, Willie Mays and Hank Aaron? Sandy Koufax maybe?

:confused:

Clemente. :eek: At least in terms of his numbers. Bill James, as of 20 years ago, ranked him only 70th or so, whereas everyone else has him significantly higher. We have had this discussion before and I suppose we may have it again. Only 240 HR, and he wasn't much of a HR hitter on the road either, so I think Forbes Field only gets one so far in downplaying his lack of HR power. Yes, incredible arm, but James makes a cogent argument that that whole thing is not as important overall as some make it out to be. There was a very interesting (and of course contentious) discussion about Clemente and Kaline being roughly equal not that long ago here.

That's true; Kaline is even cheaper. My point was that if someone wants a 1959 Topps Ernie Banks in nice shape, most of the time it's not going to break the bank. He doesn't have the pull of Aaron, Clemente, Mays or Koufax in that set.

I guess to me -- what started this thread -- is Mantle rules that top spot. But, like anything, he's worth whatever someone is willing to pay ... and apparently, that's a lot.

For F's sake!! Maybe some people have changed their mind on someone etc. So this adds another thread, who cares. But to reply "If you can figure out the search function", makes you sound like some kind of butt hurt Karen. Don't open the thread and don't read it.

Strongly agree with all of this and would add Vada Pinson, who could easily be in the Hall IMHO. Ryan and Bench both had rookie cards in '68. Bench is widely regarded as the best catcher of all-time. But few would say that about Ryan as a pitcher (despite his obvious greatness). So how can one possibly explain the price disparity of the two cards, other than the small market factor that negatively impacts Bench?

I thought about replying, "WHAT'S A SEARCH FUNCTION???" but I think Peter's a good guy who just didn't care to see Conversation 101 on the topic.

Maybe it wasn't phrased well but I was sincerely suggesting you look at all the past threads because that would give you lots of other responses to your question. The fact that I've actively participated in this thread shows I wasn't suggesting anything other than that. But whatever, some people are just assholes.

Home park makes a huge difference. From 1955-69 when Clemente played in Forbes, there were an average of 86 HR per season hit. Compare that to Hank Aaron's home field advantage. From 1966-68 there were an average of 151 HR per season hit in the "Launching Pad." After the 1968 season, the Braves moved the fences in to help Aaron hit more HRs. From 1969-73, that number jumped to 187 per season. 1n 1974 with Aaron at 713 HRs, the Braves moved the fences back.:eek: If Aaron hadn't played in Atlanta, he would be fifth all time in home runs and his cards would be priced similar to Frank Robinson's. Mickey Mantle and Hank Aaron are the most overpriced post-war vintage players.

Just looking at 1969, Hank hit more home runs on the road than at home.

For his career, Aaron hit 385 homers at home and 370 on the road. 740 home runs would not make you 5th all-time.

+1

https://hosting.photobucket.com/85c5...0583b117f7.jpg (Not mine.)

Maybe Manager Joe Cronin just finished reminding Williams that half the game was fielding.

Or the Red Sox' new hitting coach started talking to him about launch angles and exit velocities....

:eek:

Oh yeah! As kids it was very much the case that older meant rarer. When in the late spring of 1963 a buddy and I decided to collect any and all cards, any cards older than 1960-61 Hockey cards were already scarce. So while we had hundreds of 1961 Baseball cards, finding any 1960 Baseball cards at all was an exciting event. And pre-1957 Baseball cards were a complete curiousity. I'm not sure we managed to acquire even a dozen 1952-56 Topps Baseball cards out of the something like the 6500 cards we accumulated in the next 2 1/2 years.

Interesting. I had sort of the opposite experience. My brothers and I first started buying 1965 Topps, but we ended up having a ton of earlier cards all the way back to 1952, whether from the kid across the street whose older brother had left him a massive collection, or my parents' friends who knew we collected and gave us their (older) kids' old collections, or trading with friends who had acquired them in probably similar ways.

No one gave a thought to value of course. I remember my girlfriend in high school had a little sister who loved baseball, so I gave her maybe 5 each of Mantle and Mays, we had dozens.

LOL on Williams.

Yep. I started buying wax with 1986 Topps baseball, after having been introduced to the trading card medium the year before with what else? Garbage Pail Kids!

Only the "older kids" even had '85 Topps baseball, which they did not want to give up. I only acquired "older" cards like that later, as perhaps an 11 yo in 1988.

See, the thread you didn’t want to exist at first brought you down a wonderful memory lane!

Can nobody on this board read? Jesus. For the third time, I was only trying to suggest to the OP other threads where he might see other answers, I was not indicating any objection to this thread, which obviously I don't have as I have been participating. In other words, you might ALSO want to take a look at X, to broaden the range of responses. Since I suck at using the search function, I wasn't able to link them myself, thus the comment about the search function. But go ahead, add to the litany of stupid comments directed at me. Is this your second in three days maybe? You had one too on the fixed officiating thread which I didn't even dignify with a response.

So much for trying to get you to see the bright side! This was an arguably negative way to respond to the OP: “If you can figure out the search function, we've literally had this discussion 100 times, and you'll find all the ideas people have had.”

I already said I didn't phrase it that well, but after I've explained twice that my INTENT was good, trying to point him to additional sources of answers, you have to go rip me again. WTF man. Not as obnoxious as BigMouth Is Real, granted lol.

He was undervalued by the writers in the 1950s, never receiving more than 13.5% of the HOF votes, and is undervalued in the card market imo. The 9th ranked left fielder per JAWS.

Should I therefore understand that these cards you had then went by the wayside somehow and you no longer have them?

I turned my half of the card hoard we'd accumulated over to my buddy Anthony a few months after I'd been packed off to a boarding school in Kennebunkport, Maine for ninth grade in 1965. Once Anthony finished grade school himself in the spring of 1966, he turned over the cards which he'd lovingly filed in order in a large cardboard box to young Billy across the street thinking that Billy would continue carrying the torch and further build the collection. Not so. Billy just scrambled the contents of the box for the other kids in the neighbourhood right in front of Anthony's horrified eyes!

Given the sad though self-inflicted denouement to our/his collection, Anthony can't stomach the thought of spending even a dime on cards these days. He does still collect Shirriff Hockey coins since he still has the ones he got as a kid. And of course he enjoys looking through my card binders.

:)

Sadly, my Mom tossed vast numbers of cards when I was in college, because she wanted to make room for something else on the basement shelves where all the boxes were. Oh, what might have been. I mean the Mantles and Mayses and so on were probably well handled but still tragic. Speaking of which imagine getting a Mantle out of a pack and being pissed because you were trying to get a Sonny Siebert or whoever to complete the series checklist.

The small market is definitely a factor, but I think it also probably has to do with the fact that Ryan played for so long. When the “hobby” became HUGE and seen as a viable investment from the mid-‘80s to the early ‘90s, Ryan was basking in “living legend” status while still having current cards (and, in fairness, still throwing the occasional no-hitter), whereas Bench had been retired for years.

R U kidding? Note Bobby Grich's WAR - 71.1 !!!!
 

Do you really believe that some such newly hatched player valuation technique incorporating multiple subjective factors is a better gauge of Bobby Richardson as a player than the awards he was given during his actual career?

:confused:[/QUOTE]

YES YES YES

Agree with John
 

Sure, park effects are significant at times but the idea that Aaron is overrated is just nuts to me.

I Think If anything Aaron is way undervalued. One of the ten greatest players of all time, and I would argue one of the top five most important of all time.

Oh come on!

Since when are scouts very good at projecting how any minor league replacement player will fare at the MLB level? They make educated guesses but it's guesswork nonetheless and they're frequently wrong, very wrong. Quite simply there's many a slip 'twixt cup and lip.

Worse yet, the WAR stat involves projecting the performance of no specific player but some theoretical random replacement player. In other words an abstraction! So WAR is based on extrapolating, i.e. guessing, the play of an abstraction! Talk about airy-fairy!

I'm with those who believe that the search for one simple metric such as WAR to assess baseball players is a search "an ephemeral alchemy, a chimera, and he who searches for it runs a fool’s errand."

;)

+1. One could make a credible argument that he was the greatest player of all time -- and had an off the field impact that perhaps rivaled that of Jackie Robinson.

If I were buying for investment I'd buy Willie Mays all day. If anyone can catch Mantle in price, it's him. He's got the numbers, the reputation, and now that he's passed, he can't be rude to fans anymore!

I think with Mantle it's basically because his name is associated with baseball cards. If you consider the hobby and its growth, the '52 Mantle is the starting point. If you ask a non-collector, "What name do you associate most with baseball card collecting?" The answer would be Mickey Mantle.

For pre-war I think players who starred in the 1920's are undervalued because there were no really popular card sets produced. I'd include Harry Heilmann as one of those guys because he doesn't have a T206 or a Goudey card. In fact, I wonder how many hall-of-famers from that era don't have a card in either of those sets? Maybe Heilmann is the only one.

There are several HOFers where nobody seems to care. Heilmann has always been one of them. Same with someone like Al Simmons. I have never in my life run into a single collector who specializes in either, although you have to imagine they're out there somewhere.

You are really asking why Ryan is so popular? Seriously?

I once tried to work out who was the best player not to be in any of the classic T and E sets, and also to miss all the 1930s sets, and Alexander was who I came up with. In some measurements, one of the top five pitchers ever, but probably under-collected because of not being in these sets.

However, he did make it into both Cracker Jacks sets, which are technically E cards (even though they are not usually referred to as E145-1 and E145-2) while Heilmann did not.

If you want to limit it to T206 and 1933 Goudey, I imagine there are other HOFers sandwiched between these two...but I have not tried to look for those. Maybe a fun project after work. Some of the "lesser" 1920s HOFers, like "Highpockets" Kelly and Chick Hafey would qualify.

Although he probably rates much higher than either of these two, you don't see a lot of people talking about their Jimmie Foxx cards either.

With that being said, Alex has always been popular among card, autograph and memorabilia collectors. And rightly so!

Very true. And that's a real head-scratcher to me.

Here are some other 1920s stars not in T206 or 1933 Goudey: Bancroft, Carey, Coveleski, Harris, Lopez, Roush, Youngs. "Research" consisted of looking at Veteran's Committee selections of the 1960s and 1970s and checking if they had a 1933 Goudey card (some were playing at the time but were not in the set). I'm curious now, so will research more later. I'm guessing Alexander and Heilmann will remain the two best players.

Heilmann was truly incredible; it's so sad to me that he's been forgotten to time. At least some of the lack of value goes back to what I mentioned earlier about Tiger-themed collectors not being very liberal with their hobby budgets.

...and I'm not singling out Tigers collectors on this. There are many teams where this has always been applicable. Red Sox and A's are definitely among the top of such a list, even more so than the Tigers. That would serve to partially explain Foxx (and even Teddy).

Sisler isn't in any mainstream sets, he's probably roughly comparable to Heilmann.

Good one..will add to the list. Thanks.

So far the list of HOFers not in t206 or 1933 Goudey and who played in-between these two sets or were playing at the time but were not included: Alexander, Bancroft, Carey, Coveleski, Hafey, Harris, Heilmann, Kelly, Lombardi, Lopez, Roush, Sisler, Youngs.

Not a HOFer but Joe Jackson isn't in either set, of course he's in E90-1 (or rather a drawing of someone with his name on the card).

If I don't limit it to HOFers I will never get any work done today!

Had I any Jimmie Foxx cards, I'd be bragging about those every day on this forum. The best I can do though among the vulpine crew is Nellie Fox.

:(

I would bet that's the first appearance of "vulpine" on this forum.

Yes, we can add it to my record of being the first to use the term "jazz hands" on the forum nearly 20 years ago.

I'd definitely agree Alexander is underrated - he was better than Mathewson but nowhere near as appreciated.

I would say Tris Speaker is probably undervalued too. Tough to find many players of his caliber but I feel like his name is probably unknown to most casual fans who aren't collecting baseball cards. Despite being hugely popular in his own time it didn't seem to carryover to future fans.

He does have some pricey cards but I find him to be one of the more affordable HOFers in many of the sets he's in.

Talk about overrated... Ryan's the man!
 

292 losses, .526 PCT. Led the league in walks 8 times, ERA 2 times, Wins 0 times.

The guy had the arm to be the GOAT but not the makeup. (He had plenty of makeup all right: the makeup to try to strike out every batter and to throw a no-hitter every time out - but not to WIN any way he could.)

IOW, the poster's question is a great one. Ryan was a phenomenon, absolutely, but not head-and-shoulders above all the other greats of the era - yet his card prices are way out of scale with almost all of them.

I suspect this has a lot to do with the specific dynamics of the hobby from about 1989-1994, which is when Ryan's cards really took off.

For market and also psychological reasons I think the hobby has needed a single supersuperstar from every era to drive values. Wagner, Cobb, Ruth, Mantle have been in this position for decades now, and this doesn't look to change.

With more recent eras, it's somewhat more fluid. During most of the 1980s the guy was Pete Rose, whose ugly little decapitated rookie image from 1963 Topps was going for wild money for years, way above any other post-1960 rookie. But although the hobby was still in a serious growth mode, after the 1989 Rose/Giamatti debacle someone else was needed in this role.

So Ryan was the right guy at the right time, Amazingly, he hadn't lost much if anything off his performance, and it looked like he was going to pitch forever (as Rose had looked ten years earlier, though he was no longer the player he had been). He was adopted by a large segment of the casual collecting hobby.

In the last three decades, Ryan's star has dimmed a bit, but because his cards were so pricey from so long time ago, people have a lot of money tied up in them, and don't want to let them go cheap. Hence the prices stay up there compared to his contemporaries who were not still playing when the hobby price boom came, especially Bench, who retired in '83.)

Actually, the same thing goes on with Rose, whose cards never completely collapsed in value despite the disgrace. His rookie is still far higher relative to almost everyone's in the era. ($2K for a PSA 5, while Billy Williams' 1961 Topps rookie in PSA 5 is like $75!). I think this is almost entirely a residual effect of Rose cards being so high from such a long time ago.

There is far too much dislike for Ryan on this forum, in addition to the constant poo-pooing of his ability and stats.

I'd like to think his accomplishments might have a wee bit to do with the value.

I don't understand that perspective on Ryan at all. It is not uncommon for someone with a freakish arm like his to walk batters. It comes with the territory. You're asking for too much if you want a guy with an iron arm cannon and pinpoint control.

Look at Feller. He was Nolan Ryan before Nolan Ryan. Feller led the league in walks and strikeouts in the same season four times. Twice he led the league in wins, strikeouts, walks and hits surrendered.

While I don't think Ryan was as great as, say, Seaver or Carlton, due mostly to too many walks, he did pitch mostly for weak teams, and had he pitched for better ones, he might have had 40-50 more wins which would have put him in some pretty exalted company.

Newly added: Appling, Hooper, Schalk. Not included: Medwick (played in 1932 but not a regular until 1933). Also did not include managers Rickey or Robinson.

So as far as I can tell, the list of HOFers not in t206 or 1933 Goudey who played fully in-between these two sets or were regular players at the time one of the sets was issued but were not included in either set: Alexander, Appling (regular in 1932), Bancroft, Carey, Coveleski, Hafey, Harris, Heilmann, Hooper, Kelly, Lombardi (regular in 1932), Lopez, Roush, Sisler, Youngs.

you misunderstand?
 

Yes, his accomplishments had everything to do with the INITIAL rise in his cards' prices in the 1980s. But those accomplishments were all there before and during that initial rise. My point is that the values have stayed surprisingly high after his disgrace because of the residual effect.

(Just FYI, I am a lifelong Rose fan and I think MLB should now relent and let him in the HOF.)

Ryan and Feller
 

I don't really object to the walks, except in how they contribute to the failure to get wins for the team he's pitching for.

But also, Feller led the league in walks four times, not eight as Ryan did. In three of those four seasons he also led in Innings Pitched. And he won 102 and lost 51, for a .667 PCT. ( I also see him leading in hits surrendered 3 times, not 4, but anyway...)

In Ryan's 8 seasons of leading in walks, he led in IP only once and won 135 and lost 117 (.536).

In other words, Feller figured out how to win early on despite the wildness, and went on to a .621 PCT lifetime. For Ryan, as many accounts have emphasized (see Posnanski's The Baseball 100), the walks were as much about trying to make that perfect untouchable pitch over and over as they were about actual wildness.

Another way to look at this: Feller won 82% of Ryan's wins while losing 55% of Ryan's losses. Detect a pattern here? :)

Their ERA was nearly identical with Ryan's being a little better. Ryan's WHIP was better.

Ryan pitched nearly 1,500 more innings and struck out over 3,000 more batters.

If you look at the years he won 20 games for the Angels, in 1973 he won 21 games for an Angels team that won 79 games total. In 1974, he won 22 games for an Angels team that won 68 games total. When he won 19 games in 1977, the Angels won 74 total games. I don't know how much more successful he could have been when you only look at wins.

Pinpoint control, strikeouts, monster win count, mostly losing teams... It just makes your jaw drop thinking about Walter Johnson, doesn't it?!?! I refuse to call him WaJo. He gets the full name treatment! He's not J. Lo.

And on top of his accomplishments, a wonderful human being.

For consideration...

Vulpinnacle
The most perfect looking Nellie Fox or Jimmie Foxx card a collector could hope to find.

It's gonna be REAL tough for you to match the genius of Lance ARF-strong.

Good list directly above. You did accidentally left off Ray Schalk, which was your 'newly added' list.

If you allow Hall of Famers who also appeared in the other two large scale tobacco issues of the era (T205 and T207) and 1930's issues up through the 1934 issues of 1934 Goudey, 1934-36 Diamond Stars and 1934-36 Batter-Up, the following would be eliminated from the list:

Alexander - 1931 W517
Appling - 1933 W574, 1934 Goudey, 1934-36 Diamond Stars, 1934-36 Batter-Up
Carey - 1912 T207
Hafey - 1931 W517, 1933 Delong, 1933 Tattoo Orbit, 1934 Goudey, 1934-36 Diamond Stars, 1934-36 Batter-Up
Harris - 1931 W517, 1934-36 Diamond Stars
Heilmann - 1931 W517
Hooper - 1912 T207 (and 1909-11 E254 Colgan's Chips)
Kelly - 1931 W517
Lombardi - 1933 Tattoo Orbit, 1934 Goudey, 1934-36 Diamond Stars, 1934-36 Batter-Up
Lopez - 1934-36 Diamond Stars, 1934-36 Batter-Up
Roush - 1931 W517

Leaving just these HOF players without cards from the 1909-1912 and/or 1930-34 eras:

Bancroft
Coveleski
Schalk
Sisler
Youngs


Brian

agree with it all
 

Johnson pretty much embarrasses every other pitcher who ever lived.

I think you've found the one statement that won't start an argument around here.

I'm just so thankful that I had friends who played with and against him so I could hear first-hand accounts. The man was universally loved.

sorry, but that just looks at his best seasons
 

Ryan's only two 20-win seasons (which was another thing I was going to bring up). Feller won 20 six times and lost four more probables to the war (1942-45).

I know NR pitched for a lot of so-so teams, but pointing to pitcher win totals relative to bad team records only takes you so far - Feller somehow won 26 in 1946 for a Cleveland team that won 68 total games.

Look at Walter Johnson with his .599 lifetime for a lot of really so-so teams.... he pitched about the same number of innings as Ryan, lost 13 fewer games, and won almost a hundred more!

Also, in terms of evaluating players, it baffles me how a stat like lifetime strikeout total can be placed against wins or winning pct. What is the foremost object of a pitcher's efforts? To strike people out? I'd have thought it was to win games for the team... A lot of folks nowadays seem to think Ryan never really accepted that principle.

Again, not saying that Ryan wasn't a great pitcher for a long stretch, and amazingly durable. But if I had to choose someone to lead a team to a pennant and win a bunch of games (as opposed to striking out a bunch of guys and maybe authoring a no-hitter), there are about a hundred guys I would pick before Nolan.

I am guessing there is a very strong correlation between high strikeout totals and success. Ryan is a bit of a unique case, but to suggest there is somehow some incompatibility between striking people out and winning makes no sense.

Lefty O'Doul. On and off the field, amazing guy.

no incompatibility - but it's the whole picture that matters
 

Sorry, I never said that. There is definite correlation between K rates and success - extreme power pitchers in general do have more success and have much longer careers than extreme finesse guys.

But there's a lot of space between the extremes. For me the issue is between Ryan, who seemed to believe his primary mission was to strike everybody out all the time, and guys like Maddux, Glavine, Spahn, later Grove, later Matty, and probably later Walter, who struck out above-average numbers of batters because they knew how to get the most out of their arms and their knowledge of the game. But they didn't have an obsession with velo and strikeouts and they understood that the primary goal was for the team to win more games than their opponents. If they struck out 12 and won, great - if they struck out 5 and won, equally great!

I just can't get past someone with that incredible arm totaling 292 losses - losing 48 games for every 52 he won! (And it's not like we have a small sample size to evaluate :))