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Yogi: He played catcher. Could be most important position, so the better your overall all around play, the better your teams chances of victory. He won a lot. He went on to become a decent manager. This often shows leadership and high knowledge of the game. MLB Commissioner, Rob Manfred, "Yogi was renowned as a Great teammate." Also a real plus off-the-stat sheet quality.
Garvey had a career .996 fielding % at First, an MLB record. Garvey also played 193 consecutive errorless games at First Base, another MLB record. And is the only player in the history of baseball to have played an errorless season at the position. |
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We could probably identify pretty easily 15 1B better than Garvey that haven't made the Hall of Fame. Whether you use analytics or traditional stats, he's nowhere near as good in the math as his fans say if you just look at his numbers.
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I have always been surprised with Juan Marichal's low WAR of 61.8 with his 6 20 victory seasons and 2.89 lifetime ERA. Luis Tiant has a WAR of 65.6 and I would not place him in Marichal's level.
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But Stargell was better in '74, the year Steve Garvey won his MVP. Hernandez was better in '77, '79 and '80. Bob Watson was a better hitter from '75 thru '77. Pete Rose was just as good in '80. Steve Garvey was consistent, but never amazing. Hernandez was easily the better player from '77 thru '80. Hernandez' OPS+ was several points higher than Garvey's, and he was a much better fielder. Hernandez was only a Rookie in '75 and only had 188 at bats, so its not a fair comparison for '74 and '75. |
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I am sure there was a long stretch when Bert Campaneris was the best SS in the AL. And what of it? |
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https://msuspartans.com/news/2010/9/...ve_garvey.aspx |
Grich
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Yes, I realize Stargell had fewer at bats. As for Garvey being a better hitter than Hernandez from '77 -'80. Please make your case with numbers, not fanboy feelings. |
I always believed Alfonso Soriano was much better than his WAR indicated. WAR by itself, is a flawed statistic however.
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Hard to understand Rick Reuschel's place in the WAR pantheon too. He finished with 69.5, good for the 106th best WAR of all time. Baseball-Reference ranks him as the 32nd best starting pitcher of all time.
Does anyone really believe that? |
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Hall of Fame Statistics Black Ink Pitching - 7 (440th), Average HOFer ≈ 40 Gray Ink Pitching - 111 (232nd), Average HOFer ≈ 185 Hall of Fame Monitor Pitching - 49 (290th), Likely HOFer ≈ 100 Hall of Fame Standards Pitching - 31 (156th), Average HOFer ≈ 50 JAWS Starting Pitcher (32nd) |
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I think the guys like Reuschel are really interesting...WAR is just one measure, but it's generally a pretty good indicator of a player's overall impact, adjusted for era, park, etc. The players who don't make sense, either because their total seems too high or too low, are interesting to look at to understand why.
With Reuschel, I think it's a combination of throwing a lot of innings and being pretty good at limiting both walks and home runs that makes WAR "like" him more than you may think. Also, WAR is a counting stat...BBR has him worth 18.3 WAR AFTER his age 35 season....hanging around a long time help. |
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Ozzie Smith and Bill Dahlen are two other examples. |
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Do your life a favor...listen and take notes when Freckle Faced Boy Prophet Who Wears Glove as Hat speaks. But it is imperative that while within his presence the rubber bands must, under no circumstances, ever be mentioned.
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WAR is a good stat but only in combination with other stats. Taken by itself it's not reliable, as shown by many of the examples above.
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Bumping this to add another -- Juan Gonzalez, only 38.7. Leaving aside whether he juiced, a dominant slugger for quite a stretch.
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Couple of observations, having lived in SoCal during Garvey's entire career, and watching zillions of Dodgers games...
He got a lot of cheap hits (seeing-eye pop-ups, bloopers, Texas Leaguers, etc.) He had very strong forearms, so guess we should credit him for being able to "muscle" the ball into the outfield when he got jammed. He was the best I've ever seen at continually scooping bad throws from Cey, Lopes, Russell and Co. He saved many an error by having their backs. He was a very steadying presence, defensively. FWIW, I despised him and his squeaky clean image. We were displaced Reds fans living in OC. But we were just kids, and now I truly respect what he did. I don't think he'll ever enter the hall, as his numbers fall pretty far short of HOF status for a First Baseman. But he was still an excellent player. |
Are there any other players with six 200 hit seasons whose numbers don't even put them close? Strange case.
PS Michael Young I think had six. |
Juan Pierre had four and just missed a fifth with 196. Not a guy you think of as a hit king either.
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Michael Young has a WAR under 25 (right up there with Chico Cardenas and Gene Alley) despite 6 200 hit seasons and a .300 LIFETIME average. LOL.
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Jesus Alou played 15 years, had a .280 batting average and more than 1200 hits -- but a WAR of just 0.8.
When you look at the other numbers, it makes sense. He had very little power, rarely walked, didn't steal bases and was sub-par defensively. The only thing he did well -- hitting singles -- made him look good in some of the traditional stats, but that's not nearly enough for a good WAR. You have to wonder whether any other position players have played for 15 years without reaching even a 1.0 WAR. |
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Here's an ignorant question about WAR -- for all of baseball, is it a zero sum game such that all players collectively add to zero?
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He's famously terrible but Bill Bergen played 11 seasons and appeared in more than 900 games. He finished his career as a 170 hitter with a 21 OPS+ and a career WAR of -6.9.
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