I would have to agree with you but he is entertaining. The fact that he holds himself out as an expert in every field and takes himself so seriously is well worth having him. Anyway, it sounds like he might have left but I doubt it. His ego is way too large to stay away for long.

And if he did leave, his exit turning it sexual was certainly a first since I have been here. I think a GFY would have sufficed, however.

He'll be back quickly, he just has to exit this thread because he couldn't restrain himself from going into such complete lies that he cannot possibly even try to spin it anymore.

This dude is a lot of fun for his over the top stupidity, ego and complete disassociation from the truth even outside of his agenda, but he's also a more or less open fraudster who takes over every single thread about fraud to preach it and then turn it into a series of increasingly absurd lies and egotistical rants. It's beyond ridiculous by now. Is there any point where fraudsters get booted? How far is completely lying about specific people allowed to go?

He thinks he is edgy and controversial but your description is more fitting. Screaming for attention. He might not be back however. He might find another chat board to spend his time in any of the many areas in which he thinks he is an expert.

If it is indeed a factory miscut, are there examples of other cards (ideally on the same row of the sheet) that exhibit the very same characteristics? Finding such examples would definitely help bolster the theory.

Oy, as Yogi would say - this thread is deja vu all over again...

My point from other threads remarkably similar to this one is that unless you (or I, or a grading company, or the FBI / CIA) can TELL after the fact that a card was indeed cleaned / spiffed-up / altered - then this whole thing is a moot point, because any professional judgement of said card will render it NOT altered, and 99.44% of potential buyers for the card will never be the wiser.

As for the rest - condemning only the act of cleaning / using KCC products in abstentia, thinking that those who engage in this stuff are bad characters - all just becomes speculation and finger pointing that leads to nowhere. Sure, they are bad people. It's "shady". Oh, can you tell which card here was altered? Me neither.

I've played around with Kurt's spray before on my own worthless PC cards just because I was curious. Does it work to an extent? Yes. Is it a magic bullet? No.

Beyond that, I still enjoy chasing and collecting cards much more than I do being a full-time cleaning technician - so the whole thing is not for me. But until PSA and others can start pointing to his altered cards with repetitive accuracy (Please. They can't even spot trimming and minsize with any type of repetitive accuracy) - the practice is going to continue and become even more widespread.

Everyone's heard the "no harm, no foul" argument, just as you've heard the "there may be unknown long-term risks" argument. The line is drawn, and few people are going to switch sides on that point.

The more important question is where do you stand on disclosing what's been done to the card? That's the real heart of the argument. Should the Travises of the world be allowed to sell doctored cards without disclosing that they're doctored because, as you put it, 99.44% of potential buyers will never know the difference?

I always disclose what I know on raw cards. I'm sure many don't.

Now, If I had a vintage 60's Topps card that I took and removed a crease from using Kurt's methods, and cleaned some wax up off the back via the same, and sent that in to SGC and it gets a 6 because they can't tell (this is what happens every day...) and I get that back - do I say anything other than this card is an SGC 6? I don't know that I would do that but not sure I can find fault with those who do.

The whole point of slabbing cards up to sell is to be able to let the grade speak for the card and not to necessarily go over every single detail about the physical card - which the large majority of ebay sellers anymore don't anyway.

Herein of course lies the conundrum. If / when creases start returning en masse on "fixed" cards that have been slabbed, there is of course going to be a problem. But how will it be addressed in reality? My guess is the grading companies will take the hit over and above "bad actors" in the hobby who will of course largely remain anonymous. Kurt's customers are becoming so widespread it's not as if there are going to be singular villains like a Gary Moser or PWCC to point to. IMO anyway.

Everything should be disclosed. I would hate to buy a raw card that a seller sold to me, without disclosing the card has been cleaned, trimmed, touched up, or modified in any way, and I then send it in for authentication/grading, only to find out then it has been. Some collectors care, some don't. But it's the right thing to do.

Wow, what a mess. I now have a headache!

It takes 1-3 seconds with the average typing speed to disclose the truth of what has been done to a card. It is not a burden. It is very, very easy to simply be honest and tell the truth. If 99% of buyers don’t care or won’t notice (I strongly doubt that), then there is no harm to the price for the virtue of being honest. Of course, the only reason not to disclose is that it does hurt the price if the card is known to be worked on. And so we must wring our hands very week or two and pretend that somehow dishonesty is the right thing to do or at least allowable, because the profit margin is all that matters and the truth is undesirable if not as profitable.

I still cannot think of a single example where covering up the truth of an item is the better thing to do than just being honest. But of course, honesty is not as good as money.

+1

Second time he has announced his departure in two days. I’ll set the over/under at Monday for his next post

Trouble in chemical spray paradise?

https://www.cllct.com/sports-collect...ing-rejections

I wonder if PSA will alter (pun intended) their guarantee. They may try to proactively absolve themselves from blame in advance. There is a very real possibility of issues appearing (down the road) with graded cards that have been cleaned with KCC products.

Oh, but it's SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO effing legit, isn't it\?

We are fine with blowing on it or using a dab or water or using microfiber to clean it," said Ryan Hoge, president of Collectors, parent company of PSA. "But when you are doing much more, we are not on board."

Hopefully, this is the beginning of the end of this madness.

But I was told PSA is fine with Kurt’s and doesn’t care and that’s part of why it’s not altering!

Like Bogart, you were misinformed.

Spoken like a true BS artist. I think they just did call you.

Colone said he's surprised PSA officials haven't called him to talk.

"I come in peace and I'm really open minded," Colone said. "Let's exchange practices and data with each other."

I know this might be a bit snowmanish of me but doesn't PSA have to make this statement? It is also actually hilarious after they were shown how inept or complicit they were in grading so many severely altered cards on Blowout and remained silent the entire time.

I think Kurt might be a con artist on top of being a card doctor. It is my opinion he is not only fixing up cards and "violating" PSA's submission terms, (which based on Hoge's statement 99% of the people in the hobby are violating submission terms by soaking cards in water) but also deceiving all the people who buy his kits thinking creases and wrinkles will just go away on their own by using the spray.

Hes lurking, just hasn't posted yet

I'm shocked, shocked to find that lying and fraud is going on in here!

Kurt used to cover the cert number in the videos. Did he get too brazen, or was it laziness?

The best card cleaners don't youtube that kinda thing in the first place...

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I am sure PSA has banned him from submitting and there is a good chance they might have deactivated more of his submissions. I am not a fan of deactivating submissions or cards unless PSA is in possession of those cards who certs they are deactivating.

Most people do not check cert numbers on PSA's site prior to buying a PSA graded card so they have no idea they are buying something that PSA no longer recognizes as a legit card but they have put out legit money. The burden is then on the buyer to track down the person they bought it from to get a refund. GL with that.

And let's not think PSA deactivated those certs to keep the market clean and protect buyers. And if they did ban Kurt that too was not done to protect buyers. They do these things to anyone who embarrasses them.

Agreed.

Did they decertify the Wemby 1/1? That thing is forever tainted, at least for the next few days ... after that, stuff is usually forgotten

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This certainly appears to have already been an embarrassing situation for PSA. It could potentially get far worse, too. Imagine if a significant number (hundreds, thousands, maybe more) of PSA graded cards begin to present signs of exposure to chemicals.

I can imagine something similar to the "greening" issue with '90s Finest/Chrome cards.

As sad as it is PSA is immune to consequences of any type, it seems. The 3 or 4 year period on Blowout with all those threads on altered cards that I could not keep up with after a short time was the height of damning. There had to be tens of millions of dollars in cards that were shown to be altered. Best thing ever for business for them. And the card doctors were more inspired afterwards to boot. Add to that the FBI shelving the investigation and look we we are now.

IMO, Kurt and his magic spray is a nothing burger for PSA and if cards start decomposing in the holders or whatever, we can send them in for review and I will bet the graders will stand behind the grades.

Neal I do not know the whole story on the Wemby 1/1 but it is still active. https://www.psacard.com/cert/88489182

I heard someone (the submitter or someone with the submitter) in the lobby at PSA after they handed him/them the card back, did a shout out to Kurt's Card Care. If that is the basis for people saying it should be deactivated, that is weak, imo.

Again, PSA and all TPG, need to catch stuff. If they cannot catch stuff then, put a W in the card doctor's column. Maybe there is nothing to detect...at the time of grading.

In the 70's, when collecting was so much simpler, we did have a guy who was known for pressing out wrinkles on cards, and he sold them at our local card shows. If someone was interested in a card that he pressed the wrinkles out, he always made buyers aware (we actually all knew him as the winkle guy), and he never charged more money than what the card would have been worth with wrinkles.

I didn't really think much of that being a bad thing back then. I'm sure more things were being done to cards back then, but never really thought much of it.

Today, this is crazy what's being done. So many cards being soaked, trimmed, re-colored, pressed out, etc., so I can see why the true card collectors are angry over it. Sad.

For me, the issue isn't what's being done. It's the deception.

+1. One may do whatever they wish with their property. It annoys me personally when people destroy unique uncut items and such, but my feelings don’t change whose property it is and what they are within their rights to do. Doctor a card, cut up a unique sheet, toss it into the fireplace and watch it burn, everyone may do as they wish with their rightful property. When they pass the problem to someone else with a coverup or series of lies, that’s where the problem is and is, of course, the entire point of the original alteration. It is done for profit, some by our regular scumbags who endorse defrauding people and advocate lying by omission or directly lying when selling.

But do these scumbags you refer to rise to the level of being "shady, deceptive, and disingenuous"?

100% :)

The part highlighted in bold would not surprise me one bit if and when it happens. Just a matter of the passage of time. But as stated earlier, no matter how severe the eventual degradation, PSA will steadfastly stand by the grade. :(

One can only imagine that if that does happen, the same reason will be given as what is said for newer baseballs with graded gem mint 10 signatures whose autographs fade over the years. "It looked different when we saw it.". Exactly the same. Easy does it. Two completely different situations, both "rationalized" using the same excuse.

Yup.

And the answer is always the same, "money" or better known as, greed. How many times have we seen it in the hobby?

This hobby has all of the right conditions for fraud to be rampant.
.

Yep. The unholy alliance of card doctors, TPGs and AHs. Perfect storm.

The trifecta of shady, deceptive, and disingenuous.

There's also a healthy dose of hypocrisy that abounds (unless everyone here collects and trades exclusively in raw cards). Hmm, I'm not hearing the sound of a single slab bening cracked. Surprise, surprise.

I don’t follow. Are you saying raw cards are somehow less susceptible to card doctoring fraud? And how would cracking out cards alleviate this?

Sure is. I have many many thousands of cards and maybe 10-12 graded cards. Is that too many?

I believe he is referring to those that complain about grading but collect mainly high grade PSA cards. If so I also find it hilarious. If not it is far from the first time I am wrong.:)

I’ve cracked thousands of slabs, and don’t have more than a couple dozen graded cards that sit in my trade bait bin. I’ve posted a pic before of a few hundred slips I’ve liberated.

Am I cleared to continue shitting on the scammers, liars, fraudsters, and dishonest people ripping people off or advocating why it’s okay to lie and cover up?

Card altering is far from limited to high grade cards so not sure what the anonymous guy was referring to. Also fail to see any hypocrisy by those who have posted here being against card altering. To boot there are plenty of ungraded cards out there for sale that are altered. One just has to look on eBay.

I have no issue with it if that's what people want to do, but I have never understood why removing a card from a slab is some sort of virtuous act.

First, I am not sure if the comment he made was directed at people who have posted here being against card altering or those who have written they are against the failure of the seller to disclose the efforts made to clean up a card upon offering the card for sale.

But I agree, I am not sure how one is not a hypocrite if they buy a graded card and break it out but they are if they don't break it out. In both cases that buyer is supporting grading. And it implies or suggests that buying raw somehow makes you immune from buying an altered card...at the end of the day I guess you cannot be labeled a hypocrite so there is that. :D

I guess if you just focus on cracking out cards it does seem weird.

I more believe it to be people that constantly complain about PSAs horrible grading but collect PSA graded cards, those that complain about the AHs but buy most of their cards there, switch out AH with eBay, or those that complain about shill bidding but post about buying/consigning with known shillers. I see it as more like those examples.

So unless I only buy raw cards on the BST, or from anonymous locals at shows, I can't be pure?

As it is not only possible but common to collect, trade and sell raw cards honestly and it is not only possible but common to collect, trade and sell graded cards honestly, I don't get any logic behind this new complaint. I wouldn't expect much logic though, there has to be something thrown in to attempt to delegitimize any advocacy of honesty and disclosure regardless of how little sense it makes. I'm sure we'll be back to pretending that taking 2 seconds to disclose the truth of a card when selling is just so complicated tomorrow.

If it works for a political candidate, why not a card collecting, gambling expert, data scientist card doctor?

"If you don't clean your cards, you don't love your cards as much as I love mine." - TT

I just don't see this as black and white as that. And not sure the anonymous guy knows each of our buying habits, etc...only snowman has that ability...to make such a generalized statement.

This is why I only collect pre-war cards in the 1-5 range, give me caramel and tobacco stains, bumped corners, and wide borders any day of the week. Anything over a 6 is suspect to me.

Ben got the joke. That's all it was. See his breakdown of it. It was a general comment, not particularly directed to altering at all.

I have about 150,000 pieces. Perhaps 40 are slabbed and came to me that way. I can't stand their clunkiness or the fact that they take up so much space when they would take no room whatsoever in raw form, but we know the game: it will be easier to find new homes for them in their tombs. So yup, I can be included amongst the hypocrites, too! I would have added that to the post, but figured I'd do so shortly afterward!

And Greg, good on you for all that cracking!

Looking through Blowout's listing of altered cards there were plenty of 1's & 2's
that were turned into 3's & 4's.
I seemed to remember a bunch of Leaf's Jackie, Musial & Joe D. cards that were suspect, & that resulted in big money upgrades
You have to have balls to work on a T206 Wagner, not so much on a lower valued card like a Johnny Mize

As far as I am concerned anyone can collect anyway they want. With the weird oddball stuff I collect/hoard I have no room to talk about how or what anyone collects.

It is amazing how many don't seem to understand EVERYTHING at every level is being faked/altered/counterfeited/forged. It is far from just the high end stuff.

I am a not-so-innocent bystander, but
 

I feel that on most of the issues discussed in this thread, the path to the high moral ground has a lot of slippery slopes -- and a lot of competition.

Where can one find this list? Thx

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It wasn't a list that I read it from
Moreso many posts here on N54 that showed links to various shenanigan's that Blowout uncovered
That's where I saw the '48 Leafs

Did anyone else hear that GM was at the last Philly Show walking around?

And why not? Nothing has changed.

That's a great comment, Keith!

I don't know how current this is, but see here:

https://www.tiffanycards.com/buyer-beware

From this thread:

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showthread.php?t=1289859

https://www.washingtonpost.com/sport...?noredirect=on

I wonder if they are still investigating.... 5 years later :rolleyes:

Read my signature.

It's still an enjoyable hobby to me, not a business.

Snowballs chance in hell….it’s over

“EXPLOSIVE INTERVIEW: PSA President Ryan Hoge on Card Cleaning, New Slabs, AI Grading & More!”

Skip ahead to 38:38 for the card cleaning question:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8bfuICkhi4s

I think most on this forum agree with Ryan's take on cleaning cards, me included.

Great video and spot on!

+2. Very spot on.
.

I agree with a lot of what was said in the video Peter posted. The one point in which I disagree is that by collecting cards in the Kurt’s Magic Juice Era, you automatically agree with the practice.

Good video. Thanks for sharing.

He should have never shown that cert!

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Correct. It would be akin to not doing steroids in the steroid era, but being blamed for agreeing with those that used them, only because a lot of players used them. :)

I perosnally. would probably not want to own a card that has been cleaned with Kurt's vs one that hasn't been cleaned, all things being equal.
.

Snirt tends to last a little longer.

Butch

Yes, most of the good stuff is late in the interview.

31:30 Hoge discusses providing grader notes

38:40 Card cleaning

42:30 SGC acquisition

I have never seen the man before, but he seems approachable and fairly transparent throughout the interview.

Yes, most of the good stuff is late in the interview.

31:30 Hoge discusses providing grader notes

38:40 Card cleaning

42:30 SGC acquisition

I have never seen the man before, but he seems approachable and transparent throughout the interview.

Not sure if these have been posted before. Safety data sheets for Kurt's spray and polish. I guess these at least reveal the secret ingredients?

https://www.kurtscardcare.com/_files...cc7ae243b2.pdf

https://www.kurtscardcare.com/_files...81e102e472.pdf

Adding to Peter's post.

https://youtu.be/fVXN04tZ22g