If it is bleed through or a wet sheet transfer I doubt it would be added. More a regular problem in printing.

The real question is how would it be done. It is not like almost every town in the US has a building with a lot of paper from that era. Also how would you find old ink? I doubt eBay would have anything like that. Then do the counterfeiters go with readily available easily made commercial rubber stamps? Maybe not but how many really have access to a HAAS CNC machine to easily make the stone "printing plates". Then what, watch a few youtube videos on how easy stone lithography is. That just sounds really far-fetched to me.

If you have a guy who operates as a printer and enjoys collecting cards, he would have access to everything you've stated. Now, a five plus year gap between my encounter and the eBay auctions in 2004 followed by the news of a second grouping in 2019. Uh......hmmm.....nice cycle.

Not the best image, but PSA has new high resolution images of the Eddie Collins card on their cert verification site:

https://www.psacard.com/cert/50067761

Rhett is a friend, but friends disagree.

For those who worry about the lack of an address for Herpolsheimer's on the cards, here are two postcards currently on ebay:

The store was in the heart of Grand Rapids, right next to the Kent County civil war monument that was erected in 1885.

Also, as was pointed out earlier, their advertisements did not include their address. I even looked up the Grand Rapids city directory for 1922 on ancestry.com. It has a Herpolsheimers advertisement on page 63, and it does not have their address on it.

https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/H6EAA...l9/s-l1600.jpg
https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/gEIAA...NB/s-l1600.jpg

Steve

Here's a postcard for Herpolsheimer's, also on ebay; it was postmarked in 1909:

https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/BE0AA...KW/s-l1600.jpg

Steve

Steve,

From page 113 on the Grand Rapids 1922 city directory:

https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?...08085&seq=1131

Monroe and Ottawa Avs (the way Aves is abbreviated on page)

For a population two years beyond 1920's census count of 137,634 it would have been a big help in advertising:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_Rapids,_Michigan

I think we have a case of confirmation bias (the tendency to interpret new evidence as confirmation of one's existing beliefs or theories).

Brian sincerely believes the cards to be fake based on a dealer telling him they were. The dealer did not say what aspect of the cards made them fake, he just said they were.

So the answer to why some cards were first seen in 1999, then sold on eBay in 2004, and then a new set of cards (with different pencil markings on the back) appeared in 2019 and are being sold in 2023 is that it is a "nice cycle" for committing fraud along with a prediction that more cards will appear on the same schedule.

There is nothing inherently "nice" about this cycle. To me it is a random cycle that makes sense for very obscure cards. The appearance of yet another card (the PSA 6 Collins) is answered by questioning why PSA incorrectly labelled it an E121, not by saying the card is not real.

The back design being "inferior" somehow supports them being fake, although it is not stated what is inferior. Is it that the border is less ornate than on the Holsum Bread cards? Well, I prefer a plainer border, so I say the back design is superior. And it is certainly superior to blank-backed and stamp-backed cards, none of which Brian is claiming are fake.

I am still unclear how the lack of an address on the back proves the cards are fake except that it would have been a "courtesy" for Herpolsheimer's to include it.

One could also say the address not being on the back supports them being real because Herpolsheimer's often did not use their address in advertisements, earlier Herpolsheimer's cards did not use an address, some other department store-backed cards did not use an address, and why would an address be needed for a massive store located in the heart of the city where people had been shopping for years.

The fact that the cards are in different conditions is somehow also evidence of them being fake. Even though almost every "find" (except Black Swamp) consists of cards in different conditions. So is every find of multi-condition cards now suspect?

Isn't the simpler answer that the original dealer assumed they were fake because he had never seen cards with this back before? And that instead of thinking he had found uncatalogued cards, he thought, these cards are not catalogued so they are not real?

Michael,

The person who put the price on the cards-not saying the dealer-knew they were false.

I also direct your attention to the advertisement border design. This was a knockoff of Holsum Bread, but a cheap one. It doesn't look like a pattern from the 1920s, but an imitation for the 1970s.

Sorry, the cards are fakes and in the case of fakes to help the con they need to be in various stages of use to help with sales.

First, I saw them in May 1999 and had an honest. Then the same group hit eBay in 2004. A "new" group came to attention in 2019. Waiting for the next group of this fraud in 2034. The fifteen year rule so everyone forgets. 2004, 2019, 2034.

I see quite a few familiar and well-respected names on this thread who are adamant that these cards are real, including several who are very familiar with the E121 set and its variants.

Besides Brian and the dealer that he originally spoke with, are there any knowledgeable collectors who feel that these are fakes?

Okay. I guess this is one of those threads where no one is going to change anyone's mind.

But to summarize:

You think they are fake because the dealer thought they were fake. And the dealer thought they were fake because someone had written prices on the back. And this applies to cards found later without prices on the back which neither you or the dealer has seen in person. And to the PSA 6 Collins which doesn't seem like it was from either find.

I am not an expert on design so I cannot state whether the Herpsolsheimer's borders look more 70s than 20s. But I disagree that cheap is the same as less ornate. If they wanted to be cheap, why have a border at all? Many similar cards have no border and are deemed to be real.

We disagree on the whether the condition is relevant. You are saying that the condition varies because it is more convincing of an actual find. I am saying the condition varies because it is an actual find. I don't think there is a way to prove either one of these to the other person's satisfaction.

I am not aware of a 15-year rule for release of fraudulent cards. Is that a known span of time that has happened for other card frauds? If so it is not a very good rule, because no one forgot!

In fact, the 2004 sale is specifically mentioned by LOTG in their description for the Babe Ruth card (and for several other cards).

Michael,

I agree we agree we disagree. There are now more variables on agree in the last sentence than "Peckinpaugh/Peckinbaugh" to be produced by possibly 2034 with a Herpolsheimer back. Oh, the market value! Mostly by way of manure. Still, there is now the variable of Artificial Intelligence, a person working as a printer and that person's access to the proper paper from the time to put on the fraud not only on the "latter" Herpolsheimer set, but on other yet to be discovered frauds.....err.....umm.....finds. Oh, what the future holds for collecting. Yikes. My delivery of honesty in a completely different way than the dealer in May 1999. It can be possible that it was simply his honesty that delayed the "discovery" (LOL to the reference) in 2004.

Has there been an advertisement found for the 1921 Herpolsheimer cards? It would seem that the company would have advertised it like they did in 1916. Also, have advertisements been found for all other issues of that era or is it very common not to advertise the cards. I will admit I know very little about cards of that era and even less so about how cards were advertised. Also, i'm no expert on newspaper research either.

Whatever the case may be, I have no skin in this game, but was curious about those questions. Having no advertisement does not mean the cards are fake, but it does raise the question as to why not, especially sine they did in 1916. I'm not saying they are fake so please don't bite my head off.

I am unaware of any advertising for the cards, but that is not surprising for the following reasons:

1. I believe it is the exception rather than the rule for baseball cards being advertised in 1920's newspapers.

2. It can be real spotty finding digitalized newspapers for some areas, period. I don’t recall how I came upon the ad from 1916, but notice that is from the Grand Rapids Herald. It is difficult to find any copies of that paper from those years. No doubt the digital archives will improve and be coordinated over time, but for now it can be real hit and miss. As an odd example, I have looked for advertising for Weil Baking in 1916, 1917 and 1921 (they issued the Holsum Bread cards), and can’t even seem to find New Orleans papers, much less relevant information.

3. The advertising from 1916 was all the brainchild of Felix Mendelsohn, who was behind the m101-4/5 style cards. While he might have had some connection to the 1921 cards, he was not the publisher.

4. As noted earlier, there was tumult in the Herpolsheimer family at this time, resulting from the deaths of two top company leaders in 1920. Their advertising and marketing plans may not have been high priority and/or deciding who made those plans may have been internally disputed or unorganized.

I wish people had debated the bsf like this. I'm bidding on the LOTG cards fwiw.

I wish you the best.

Hey,, thanks, Brian. I'm looking at the Charlie Deal at $160 and thinking about kicking it a buck.

What are your thoughts on the bsf? I know my thoughts were "that's not believable." and others were like, "prove it." and I was like "I can't prove it, but I don't buy the whole enchilada. Enjoy them, gang.", so I get where you are coming from.

When they get ready for the big reveal in 2034, I would say go for bigger names in higher grades.

I was thinking about Davenport the same way I thought about and bid on Baker in 2004. To have a card example from a fraudulent set. Not going to do it.

One might consider the baseball card as the advertisement itself.

Gentlemen,

I apologize, but I forgot about my post in this on December 24, 2004 at 7:47 a.m. I forgot, as noted in the post, the dealer indicated to me the cards were produced in the 1970's. Here is the post of messages:

https://www.net54baseball.com/showth...=Herpolsheimer

Seems to me that if you haven't held the cards in hand and gone over them, you have no real basis to opine on their authenticity. had a situation recently where I purchased a rare PCL card that looked wrong when I got it in hand and was able to pin down its counterfeit origins (with the help of Mark M.) and get a refund. I could not tell just seeing pictures, I had to have it in hand and compare it with others to see what was wrong with it. That isn't what I am reading here. "Someone told me" is not only hearsay, it would be laughed out of court as the basis for expert opinion. Multiple experts with hands-on experience have seen these cards and are confident they are genuine. That, to me, is far more persuasive than hearsay. I Absent that hands-on experience, arguing these cards are fakes seems pointless and, frankly, unfair to Al and everyone else who put in the work behind this auction. Unless there is something more, "someone told me they are fakes" is a POV that adds nothing substantive to the discussion.

Here's an ad from the June 1, 1921 Grand Rapids Press (I found it on Genealogybank.com):

The cards in the ad are Cobb, Ruth, Speaker, Hornsby, Sisler, Johnson and Wally Schang.

Steve

Here is a postcard of Herpolsheimer’s from around 1910. No address on the front or back of the card. They simply felt they didn’t need to put their address out there on advertisements.

Adam,

I did hold some of the cards in my hands at Robert Morris in May 1999. With the marking of $1.00 on some of the cards, I still considered a purchase.

Another ad from the Apr 15, 1921 Grand Rapids Press:

Steve

The primary sources from 1921 are probably fakes planted by aliens or something :rolleyes:

No address Steve, must be fake.

Now that is just silly. Everyone knows aliens have not arrived on Earth yet. My inside source says it is a family of Bigfoot operating out of Oregon. Supposedly they have put enough high end counterfeit cards into the hobby they would sink a large boat.;):D

LOL. I love the last three responses. Keep up the satire! :D

Doesn’t primary source evidence contradict your claims?

So, despite the fact that someone found an ad from Herpolsheimer's from 1921 for the exact set of cards that have been labeled by PSA as 1921 Herpolsheimer's you still think the cards are fake because a dealer in 1999 said the cards were from the 1970s?

And that even if the dealer was somehow correct about those cards, you think that the cards discovered in 2019 and the PSA 6 Collins are also fake, even though those were not among the group of cards that the dealer said were fake?

Thank you Steve!
 

GREAT detective work!

If the debate doesn't end here, I'm just not sure what I'm left to think Brian. I don't know you well. We've done a couple of successful transactions and had some good communication. After seeing the original advertisements from 1921 for the Herpolsheimer cards, is it still your opinion they are not legit?

Question:
Is the claim that none of these cards ever existed, or is the claim that they do/did exist, but the ones being discussed are themselves fake?

It's an important logical point for anyone like me who has come to the thread in media res.

His claim in this thread was that every and all 1921 Herpolsheimers are fakes (including the cards found after his alleged conversation with the unnamed dealer whose opinion is apparently the arbiter of all truth).

All due respect Brian, that ad that Steve provided, thank you Steve, to me supports authenticity, unless of course the ad is fake. And while I'm not well versed on printing techniques and it may not be difficult but how does one fake bleed through on cards? The other thing that strikes me is the same "second floor" mention in both the ad and the card backs, pretty consistent imo.
Now of course the forger of the 70's may have found this ad and chosen it as a template for his craft but I find that implausible, I don't know what a forged Herp common was worth in the 70's but I would posit the "great forgery" wasn't very profitable at the time.

https://www.genealogybank.com/doc/ne...50D737BB8BF039

From Genealogy Bank

We're sorry, we can't find this page.
Still have questions? Please visit our FAQ to learn more.

All this just reminds me of the story of one of the five 1913 Liberty Nickels.

Back in 1962, the owner of the coin, George Walton, was killed in a car crash. The coin was later consigned to Stacks Auctions, one of the leading numismatic auction houses of the day (and still today). Stacks misidentified the coin as a counterfeit, and returned it to the Walton family.

Then in 2003, the family rediscovered the coin, and took it to the American Numismatics Association convention that year in Baltimore. It was examined by a panel of experts, and found to actually be authentic.

It subsequently sold for $4.2M last year.

So, the point is, even "experts" do make mistakes; and authentic items are wrongly deemed fake, or otherwise not authentic.

Steve

I have gone down the Herporlsheimer rabbit hole and I find it very hard to believe that they are not real. Some of the most knowledgeable collectors and dealers have concluded that they are real.

Dan McKee
Leon Luckey
Rhett Yeakley
Kevin Struss
Frank Ward
Brian Weisner
Todd Schultz
Al Cristafulli
Jeff Lichtman
Howard Chasser

I respect Brian Van Horn's opinion, but I find it hard to believe that all of these experts are wrong.

If I may trouble you for a response to my PM after my last post.

I want to thank Steve for the links and I apologize, but there is still one issue. These ads show the fronts of the cards. They could be E121s. You would think if they are offering the cards, they would their ad on the back.

Really? This is getting absurd. Can you not just admit that you are wrong?

Do you really think that Hepolsheimer is advertising American Caramel cards, without even naming them?

The 1916 ad does not picture their backs either.

True, but if you read the top paragraph on the bottom-right of the Apr 15, 1921 ad, it says the following:

"...we have arranged with a prominent advertising concern to make up for us this set of photographs of baseball players in action." That, to me, indicates that they had sets specially made for them (Herpolsheimer's Dept Store). It would be logical that if the cards were made specially for them, the cards would have their name on them, especially if the cards were being done by an "advertising" company.

Steve

Thanks so much for finding them Steve, and for pointing me to that site. I was able to finally find another 1916 advertiser of Mendelsohn cards using that site. I am happy to be wrong about my earlier assessment that an ad would not likely appear. Muchas gracias.

This is some desperate straw clutching. This narrative was illogical and nonsensical from the start, it is indefensible now. This is absurdly stupid lol

Steve,

It's a possibility, but more likely the two variables of the 1921 series of eighty were sold on site. Why miss an advertising opportunity in the second link after the season began?

I totally agree. This an absolutely crazy thread.

That's good to hear Todd; thank you for letting me know.

Steve

Brian,

I have done business with you for decades. I may have missed the name of the super honest dealer that convinced you these were fake 25 years ago, but I’m also on the bandwagon with every single other collector and dealer who are trying to tell you these are real. I am as skeptical as they come. If you don’t believe that, search my name on this forum. I would respectfully like to suggest to you that I am as honest as the guy from 25 years ago, and if you don’t believe I am, please do not bid in my auctions in the future.

You are wrong here. We are all wrong sometimes. At this point, you’re making yourself look bad. You’d be wise to simply admit it and move on.

I think everyone can appreciate where you’re coming from. Fakes should ALWAYS be called out as fakes. But once the evidence overwhelmingly shows the they’re real, you have to adjust and accept they’re real. I hope you’ll consider this.

Clearly a clever attempt by the counterfeiter to change the historical record to make the cards appear legitimate...

(please note the lack of an availble sarcasm font)

lol! :D

This is the only guy here who shouldn't be laughing :rolleyes:

I respectfully disagree.

Steve, that is a truly great job. Well done.

Not that I had any doubt they were real, but Steve’s find ends any debate if there was a legitimate one. Just spending 10 seconds with a raw Herpo dispels any doubt.

My favorite part of this thread is Ryan setting up the challenge of whether he is more honest than the unnamed, unknown old time dealer from decades ago — who apparently has now been revealed to be either dishonest or simply wrong. I’ve wrestled with this for a bit but I am prepared to endorse Ryan over this unnamed, unknown dealer. I hope you’ll all join me.

I think you just have to recognize it as a religious belief at this point if anyone is still maintaining they're fake.

Yeah, an Agnostic belief, but I did date the minister's daughter. We started dating on June 8, 2006. I would have started to date her two days earlier, but something about 6-6-6. :eek:

I had been shown one of those ads years ago by Zach Rice (but stupidly hadn't saved the image the last time me and Brian went at this on the forum here) so thanks for showing those Steve...that should end the debate!

Brian is a good guy but also VERY WRONG! :D

Debate over.

**NEW DEBATE**

Why are they so rare compared to their 1916 counterparts!?!

+1

I’m not a “card guy” but I was alerted to Steve’s find in today’s email from LOTG. Speaking of love…I love it when I or anyone else can solve a mystery. For me, the history and stories of what we collect is what it’s all about.

And why isn't Paul Waner in the set?

For anyone calling them "fakes" or "reprints", is the argument that:
a) the entire card was printed in the 1970s-1990s? Or that ...
b) an authentic 1921 blank back card (W575 for example) was used and a fake Herp back was printed onto an original blank back in the 1970s-1990s?

OMG, mic drop!

Nope. :D

It is like the Net54 version of a Dance Off or Dance Fight! :D

Think... "Breakin' 2: Electric Boogaloo" Net54 Edition

Brian is holding out for...
An image of a store employee...holding his ID to the camera in one hand...holding the cards in the other hand...passing the cards to a young man...young man in a Herpolsheimers & Co suit...with price tag of $2.50...geostamped to the Grand Rapids address...holding that days newspaper from 1921.

get going Net54 sleuths!!!

:D

Great work from Steve confirming what the reasonable, rational people in this thread already knew.......

Thank you, Rhett my friend. You are good for my sense of humor while I battle a cold.

My guess is that the boy suits in 1921 were so ugly/overpriced that most parents could easily override the kid's desperate pleas to purchase it.

Brian (the Brian that is firmly on the 'cards are real' side)

I think the threadbare to non-existent case for counterfeit just took another hit.

https://loveofthegameauctions.com/an...ST_EMAIL_ID%5D

What I'm not getting here, is obviously the issue existed, as per contemperanous advertisements.

So even if the dude was right that he handed Brian a stack of counterfeit cards, which none of us can prove or disprove at this point, where is the proof that these are the same cards that have now come to market? Zero, none, zip, nada.

The conclusion is that Herpolsheimer offered 1921 E121s at their store. What is not included is the back of the card which is interesting. Understood that the first ad wouldn't include the back because negotiations were probably under way. The second one, however, should leave you asking if this back was produced why didn't Herpolsheimer ever put in their advertisement? A back mentioning Herpolsheimer in a Herpolsheimer advertisement. Self promotion in an advertisement. What a concept? Epiphany!!!!:D

Starting to feel like an argument with my nephew over chemtrails.

This is why I love Net54, we've learned more about these cards in the last 24 hours than was previously known.
Props to Steve for his detective work and props to Al Crisafulli for his classy response to what was, at best, an ill-timed baseless accusation of forgery of 39 cards in his auction that is closing tonight.

LOL, I had that same argument with a way younger friend about psychics.:)

Trying to even follow the argument.

Herpolsheimer's takes out full page ads blaring the name of their business in large type. . . but they didn't show the back of the cards in the ad. . . . which would have also had the name of the store . . . so that's somehow proof of what . . .?

Thank you for the job endorsement. :D

I mean is it just that painful for someone to just say "Guess I was wrong?"

Just take the loss like an adult and own your conspiracy theory was groundless and proven wrong. This is pathetic

Ryan,

I know you're honest and I look forward to bidding in your future auctions.

Happy Holidays,

Brian

Brian's questions prompted another collector to discover more information about the set, which is why debate is a good thing, not a bad thing.

It shows just how many cards were thrown away. How many sets did they order? 100? and parts of 2 sets made it.

I believe it is near impossible for some. Me I get more than one thing wrong daily. I know this because my loving wife tells me so.:o