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I think that sort of a dawning realization is less than fun to consider. I’m probably still halfway in the denial phase and halfway in the bargaining phase of the grief process. |
My first double post. I guess I’m a member of the club now.
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I’m to the point where I think I’d enjoy viewing a complete PSA 6 1953 set With all the touched corners , rough cuts and fuzzy borders than looking a chopped up PSA 8-9 set :o
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By the way even now, with settling for lower grades than I used to on most stuff and a great deal of due diligence on any significant card I buy, I am sure altered cards have gotten through. But so far I can tolerate that relative risk, if the alternative is not to collect.
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https://www.psacard.com/psasetregist...timeset/290520 A little more here with my McCovey set: https://www.psacard.com/psasetregist...timeset/333139 Most of the items have pics attached, so you can dig down into the details if you’re so inclined. Most of it was acquired in the last 10 years. Hundreds of different sellers online with eBay, including lots of other more traditional AHs, and a handful of reputable dealers offline. Certainly no single source, but lots of different places, including some AHs that I later learned are less loved around here, although it seems like most of the AHs have their fair share of detractors around here. Your approach seems like a big step. But if you believe in it enough, then it makes sense. |
Love that 54 Mays 8.5 With the rough cut ,
Kudos to the grader |
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I have not looked at the collection and even if I did I am not sure what can be deduced from scans of cards in holders. Card altering is pervasive in the hobby. If you really want to get a perspective on it, as I did at one point, read the numerous threads on blowout. If you are mainly into high grade I would say that is an area more prone to altering but as has been demonstrated altered material is making its way into all grades. It seems to be simply about the economics of it. If a card can be improved and the bump in grade justifies the cost of grading, time and effort, then that card will likely be altered by someone. Some collectors don't care because the holder cleanses the alteration and those collectors seem (right or wrong) to conclude the holder validates the card. You can go to all kinds of steps to avoid altered stuff but unless you know for sure who submitted it and you know for sure that person is not someone who alters cards, you simply have to take another leap of faith. |
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I certainly fear that there’s a distinct possibility that some of my pieces might be doctored, although in the absence of more specific knowledge, it’s hard to know which pieces might be suspicious or worthy of further investigation, other than the higher value ones are naturally more likely to be tempting to a doctor who might take a former mid grade piece and transform it into a higher grade piece. |
If you haven't done so, start with the database at Tiffany Cards, not necessarily to search for your specific cards, but to see if they are adjacent to outed cards and therefore likely submitted by the same folks who subbed outed cards. It's at least one point of information.
https://www.tiffanycards.com/tiffany-cards https://www.tiffanycards.com/altered-card-database/cert |
Another thing that can be done is to check VCP to see if that card sold previously and if it was from a suspicious source. Short of knowing someone who has a great eye for detecting alterations or being able to do that yourself, this is about as good as you can do. We all might have to accept that we have altered cards in our collections. You can drive yourself nuts to the point where you no longer enjoy collecting.
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PSA cert lookup also sometimes identifies prior sales. It would tell you, for example, if the initial sale was in PWCC. :) I understand it is not 100 percent reliable, but again, it's data.
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I agree with previous posts where the hobby may lead, Psa 10 collectors are a different world, rare card and pre war collectors strive to a 4 grade at best. I would always be suspect for any grade higher. Big borders, tobacco stains, and used edges will become the premium cards for cards in the future.
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https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...postcount=8105 |
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Note, the timing was not coincidental. This was a personal attack for reasons I don't know. |
Think about it this way...people with a lot of money whom are registry guys that are chasing that 9 or 10 for their registry set, some guys want to be or got to be number one, big wallets sometimes equate to big big egos. I hate to say this but I know a few that do not care if a card has been deemed altered by BOA or not if it's there and they can buy it and it will boost them up on the registry it's theirs, it does not bother them. I have also heard from one gentleman whom is high up on the registry that he feels that as long as PSA still has an active cert on his card it's good regardless of what BOA or whomever says. He said that blowout is just jealous they cant own 9's 10's in the 30-50's like he can. Ego's and Money is what really kicked this Hobby into a new gear. Right, Wrong or Indifferent it's just the way it is.
I hate that these cards and guys get away with trimming and adding color but it is what it is. |
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As for the subject, if you buy an old vintage card in a 7 or above, you better do some due dillegence first. This is also why I focus on lower grade cards with unusally big borders. There is less of a chance of trimming. This card isn't trimmed, and to me, looks like a card should look from over 100 yrs ago.... https://luckeycards.com/t206eversp.jpg . |
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I didn't have a lot of time last night, but went back through the database, focusing on my high value cards, and looking more carefully at adjacent certs. The 54 Mays was the only one that I flagged as being likely problematic. A couple were within 100 certs of another card that was flagged as altered. This one had certs on both sides that were problematic, including a cert within 3. And the card within 3 certs was also a 54, but for Kaline. So that doesn't bode well. Certainly interested to learn what alterations were made to the card, and maybe the database and the posts will be updated to include this card in the future. And then I'll have to decide how to approach it once I have more detail. I guess I can be grateful that my cards will all now be fully vetted by the team at BODA as a generous free service to me. That should help me sleep easier at night, except for anything they flag as being altered, which I'll get to address. |
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Also not sure how you conclude your cards have been fully vetted by the BO guys. It seemed like the approach they would take is to look at identifiable cards by known card doctors and then look for an example in a higher grade and make a match with the photos. I would guess they are missing far far more than they have discovered. |
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But maybe there are some other steps I should take now as a result of the adjacentness to other cards already in the database? |
From what I can tell, there is only 1 guy doing it now and I doubt he is targeting your collection. It appears he updates various threads as he finds photo matches. Really not sure what their process is/was but I know it takes a huge amount of time for just a single card.
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BODA is only able to trace a fraction of altered cards. Sometimes there is a convenient paper trail of an ebay purchase and they essentially get lucky. Most of the time there is not. I wouldn't take much comfort here at least from the BODA after the fact angle.
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Unless you want to collect raw beaters I think you have to accept that unless you have the ability to look at a card while it is in the holder and assess it for doctoring, that you might have bad cards and just leave it at that. |
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As to why we bother with grading, it's simple: money. I don't care about having graded cards in my collection, but if I want to cash out, I hold my nose and get them slabbed. I do not see that changing in the foreseeable future. Graded cards just bring more money as long as there is a cadre of collectors who believe in it. No amount of hand wringing, or debate will alter that dynamic.
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Grading has become the price point for the hobby. VCP simply substantiates that fact.
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The blue collar class of collectors have long since left the hobby. It is mostly white collar now. Such a change from years ago. |
For every altered card Blowout successfully exposes, there are probably 1,000 that they simply don't find or can't identify.
As TPG became more prevalent, I started migrating from cards over to memorabilia. The whole concept of a third party handling and assessing your collectibles always rubbed me the wrong way, and that's just one reason I shifted my focus. Their inconsistency is absurd. I still love cards, but will never submit to a TPG for my own collection. When the time comes to sell, I'll just bite the bullet, let the Auction House submit them and be done with it. |
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The PSA 7 that I saw posted absolutely had print defects, as is typical for the card, on the right side. There was a small and short print line extending into the border mid way up on the right side and a larger print defect on Mays' arms. Sorry if you missed it but you did. |
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It's not as bad as it seems and it's not as good as it seems, just have fun crap it's only cards it's only money enjoy life enjoy your cards hell it's national Cheeseburger day get a cheap sandwich !!!! |
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Also, I don't hate the BODA board. I think they've largely provided a great service to the hobby. I just think they've gotten lazy and irresponsible at times with some of the cards they post. |
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You should not have jumped all over this without being more thorough in your examination. |
Pretty unlikely IMO a 7 would go to an 8.5 unless something was done to it, particularly if the card is associated with certain people.
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Unable to post the scan so hopefully these links work...if I only had a brain...
Here is the card as a 7. https://sales-history.pwccmarketplac...MONTHLY1527430 And now as an 8.5. https://sales-history.pwccmarketplac...MONTHLY1620352 It was later sold on eBay. |
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What I looked at, and rolled my eyes at, was his up close comparison to the top back border, which he made a gif image of. After that, I just moved on. Where do you see recoloring though? |
I have been dealing with others trimming my '55 AA's for years!
My '55 AA's will always be a target for alterers.
Moral of the story - I should have never sold a single card from the cellos! |
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I should have said that blue collar left the mid/high end cards a long time ago. |
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https://postimg.cc/TL6hd3T4 |
And I guess I now have an altered card in my collection, in spite of my protestations that it's not that common.
https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...postcount=8106 *sigh* |
Did any of your high grade "oddball" cards come from Dave Thorn? Small Traditions.
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But it sounds like they used several distribution channels, so it's hard to tell sometimes. |
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I'd love to see what this card looks like in hand. Specifically his arms and that white border. I don't know how recoloring works, but it sure seems to sneak through a lot more often than we'd all hope. |
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The 'white armband' is a recurring and common variant on the 1954 Mays. Yet Moser apparently removed it via recoloring. Seems odd to go to the effort, that wouldn't hurt the grade, it's not damage. More evidence we have people who don't really know those particular cards well still doctoring them and PSA being unable or unwilling to put the time in to detect them (or more corrupt explanations available) because they don't know them very well either.
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When he posted the Mays the first time, I didn't see anything about the recoloring or print lines removed. I believe he only showed the the pictures of the back edges, which he has since reposted. Those images do not bear any evidence of trimming or recoloring of the back edges. That's why I was confused and critical of his prior post. But he has since updated it, or reposted rather, and is now pointing out the recoloring on Mays' forearms, which is clearly there, as Lorewalker pointed out. And the print lines on the right border appear to have been "improved" as well (although I don't believe corndog mentioned those - yet).
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He did show the fronts of the cards. Had he not posted those front pics I never could have picked up the obvious recoloring. He was vague as to what had been done.
Also that print line flaw is on many 54 Topps Mays cards (frequently varies in size) however there are some that do not have them (maybe they are recolored too) but I have never seen a 54 Mays with the print line flaw in anything higher than a 7. Assumption is that PSA does not see it as a variation but a flaw that reduces the grade. Quite a bit of misinformation being tossed around as fact on this thread. |
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Misinformation indeed! |
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And here's a 9
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2 of the examples were graded very early on. 1 of them I have no idea when the cert was used. Those are the first I have seen, not that I have looked for them but if an experienced card doctor recolored it, then it reasons that generally that print flaw results in a downgrade.
And in case we continue this I want to apologize from the bottom of my heart if I upset you in anything I post. |
If it was a T206 it would be some highly prized "freak" and there would be 107 threads about it.
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I'm still not interested in the personal game you want to play with me. That's all you. |
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It's not really a print flaw, which I consider to be flaws from the press or handling.
It's from a mark on the negative used to make the plate. It would be on about half or 1/3 of the 54 mays produced. A genuine difference in that plate position, which should be treated as a variation even if it's not major enough to catalog or recognize. (and there are plenty that are recognized that are far more trivial) |
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Would love to see any evidence what I said was "misinformation". |
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Also, the expected variance for minor blemishes to appear and/or disappear from one scan to the next, let alone from one scanner to the next, is *much* wider than many people realize. I have thousands of duplicate scans of cards taken from different scanners and/or different settings at different times of the same cards that I could post and people would swear they were recolored or damaged, yet nothing was done to them. Also, some blemishes simply disappear when a card is soaked in water. And contrary to what many claim/wish to be true, this practice is still allowed. This reminds me of the 52 Mantle that started all these BODA threads a few years back. Nearly everyone on Blowout, page after page after page, were launching their disdain over the "trimmed" 52 Mantle. Each one pointing out which edges had so clearly been cut up. Yet, the card itself had not been trimmed at all. Not even by the width of a human hair. The card had simply been soaked in water and seemingly no one was capable of making this observation (I think there was eventually one guy who pointed this out on page 8 or so, but he was quickly shat upon, per the obligatory Blowhard code of conduct). |
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I don't care about your card doctor simp schtick. Gary Moser used moisture and his finger to achieve the changes outside the armband. Fine. |
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PSA is known for being inconsistent. Within the last 5 years I submitted a very high grade Mays which came back a 7. I reviewed it and it came back with a post it note with an arrow pointing to the print anomaly. That one of the most prolific card doctors in the hobby knew to remove it in an effort to get a 1.5 grade bump suggests that he, who you will have to admit has far more experience submitting than you do, knew leaving it there would not allow him to get a grade bump. |
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We all have opinions on this subject at hand. I respect each one of them, can we some how move forward? The horse has been beaten on this board for many years now, nothing has changed, the horse has been so beat it's now being used in beyond meat burgers. Please respectfully let's move on.
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Moving On Indeed
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..To bring us back to Pre-War Baseball Cards , I respectfully suggest we change to : " SHOW US YOUR FATS FOTHERGILL CARDS ! " http://imagehost.vendio.com/a/204295...KESAND_NEW.JPG . |
Many might hate on this but chew on this thought....all these guys that do this crap and drove up the prices....and I'm lumping in the investors who don't care what a card looks like as long as it's in a 9 holder have made all your vg ex and crappier cards go up in value as well. So can we quit the bitching to this extreme level. It's not as extreme as your all making it seem, the sky is NOT falling. This post will be all forgotten by the time the next major auction comes out regardless of what BOA claims maybe altered. The big money investors don't care. Raulis your collection is beautiful and your Willie Mays 9's will always have value. You could sell these cards today with full disclosure and and you would still get a record price for your high grade PSA 9 willie mays cards.
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Cards have been altered for profit since the beginning of collecting. It also doesn't matter if you collect high end or complete beaters they have ALL been altered by people taking advantage of the easily taken advantage of card buyers. Besides collecting what I collect my favorite part of the hobby is watching the scammers. Forums are amazingly hilarious for this. We have more than one card doctor on here. When they get exposed if it is someone nobody likes they get attacked and sometimes kicked off. Other times the card doctor is a hobby icon and the guy that bought the altered card gets attacked for calling out the card doctor. Now that is always funny reading.:D |
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Had a rough night last night - didn't sleep much. The whole situation is just rather aggravating. A couple of days ago, this was one of the crown jewels in my collection. Today, I don't even want to look at it. I realize that some think that it's still worth every penny that it was before, but I'm not so sure. I certainly wouldn't want to buy it knowing it had been altered, and I suspect that the only people who would want it are those who don't notice the disclosure, and buy it thinking that it's legit. Or they buy it hoping to hoodwink a future buyer by not disclosing it, which would not be cool. While I might personally sell it with a disclosure, at some point a future seller is likely to drop the disclosure, and some poor new owner would get blindsided like I just was. And I don't want to inflict that on anyone else. Going back to your point about value, while I hope I don't lose my shirt, my whole motive in collecting is because my collection brings me a little more happiness into my life, not because they're worth a small fortune. But now that one of my pieces has been identified as modified, it makes me wonder how many others are similarly situated. Kind of makes me sick just thinking about some worthless card doctor doing his thing to my stuff. So at the moment, the whole endeavor is definitely a lot less fun. And it also makes me a whole lot more gunshy about going out and buying additional high grade pieces. I spent $6.5k on this one, which is a lot of bread. Up until yesterday it was probably worth low 5 figures. Probably a lot less today. But I've had some $100k pieces in my sights, and now I'm not so sure that makes any sense if I'm taking a gamble on whether they might be worthless doctor jobs. It's one thing to read about cards that have been outed and understand that it's a theoretical possibility and someone else's problem. It's a whole different ballgame when one of your pieces is on the list. Starting to come around to Peter's way of thinking... |
Wait a minute. Perhaps the grading skeptics are right. Perhaps I’ve been wrong to blindly follow the traditions and superstitions of PSA registry geeks. Maybe we collectors should test these card grades analytically, through observation and developing our own expertise, a “scientific method”. Maybe this scientific method could be replace reliance on others whose skills and motives might not align with ours. Perhaps I could lead the way to a new age, an age of rebirth, a Renaissance of the Hobby!
https://photos.imageevent.com/exhibi...Theodoric.jpeg |
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The philosophical question for you is, can you live with what you don't know, or is that likelihood enough to ruin things for you even if nobody has specifically outed the card. As I've said it's a question of tolerance and only you can make that judgment. |
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That sucks and I would probably feel the same way.
One solution, don't buy high grade vintage cards. Sure, lower grade one's get hacked too, but human nature (greed), means the more money the more likely of fraud, imo. The card below isn't trimmed and I sleep well at night. Quote:
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And the answer to your question about tolerance is: I don't know. It still stings, and not just a little. I'd prefer not to experience death by a thousand cuts as each card in my collection is outed over the next 10 years, which would be extreme, but not an impossibility. Obviously just knowing that I have one bad apple casts doubt about everything else I have in my collection. At the same time, I'm so far in that it's tough to imagine just bailing and getting out. But maybe I'll have to think about some middle ground. Just not sure what that looks like other than I'm probably going to be really gun shy about buying high grade stuff going forward. |
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