Look at the list you rattled off for greats of their sports: Ruth, Jordan and Gretzky. Ruth won 7 titles. Jordan won 6 titles. Gretzky won 4 Stanley Cups.

Willie Mays won a single World Series.

Mantle won 7 of them. I think that's probably why Mantle occupies his space. He is forever seen as a champion. Mays, though great in his own right, won't be seen that way.

Obviously he did not do it alone, but Mantle's teams won the pennant an astonishing 12 out of his first 14 seasons, after which he went into decline and they did not win again.

Ty Cobb won 0 World Series. How many here consider him the greatest of all time?

For what it is worth, or not, Bill James ranked Cobb 5th and Mantle 6th. I don't see any argument for Cobb as 1st.

Joe Posnanski's top 11:

1)Willie Mays
2)Babe Ruth
3)Barry Bonds
4)Henry Aaron
5)Oscar Charleston
6)Ted Williams
7)Walter Johnson
8)Ty Cobb
9)Stan Musial
10)Satchel Paige
11)Mickey Mantle

I am sure that will not start any fights ;)

People consider Cobb perhaps the greatest hitter of all time but no one sees him in the same light as they do Mantle so I’m not sure what Cobb brings to the conversation. Most people still think the book Cobb is an accurate reflection of his life.

Who considers him more popular than Mantle?

LOL. It may be the only list I've seen with Ruth not first.

Ruth not first, 6/11 played together in the early 50’s. Seems like somebody’s list of favorites rather than an actual greatest list.


One does not need to see somebody to appreciate them, but is obviously true that the majority of people have a leaning to the people they saw or grew up liking. Young people are collecting Acuna, Trout and Ohtani instead of names from history books because they are contemporary and they watch them.

As I understand it, that is the core of Steve's point: that Mantle has had an unusually large gap between his popularity with collectors and his on-field performance, and the question is how much that is subject to change as those who saw him play leave the scene. Younger collectors, for example, seem to put a lot of stock in WAR (more, in my opinion, than it merits, but that's a different discussion). And Mantle can't really hold a candle to Mays or Aaron in WAR. So will they maintain Mantle's popularity/performance gap?

Yogi won 1O WS. I can't remember the last thread on the board discussing his cards.

Yes, for the reasons I outlined. Also my post was about Mays vs Mantle and not Mantle vs Cobb. I don't really see Cobb having a place in the conversation. Mantle will always be more popular than Mays because Mantle was a winner. Him being a winner will never change so people's opinions about winners would need to be watered down, which I don't see happening.

Yogi was not an elite home run hitter or even hitter. He won with teams that first had DiMaggio, then Mantle. To people very sophisticated in baseball, he may have been even more valuable (see Casey Stengel's famous remark) but not to the world in general.

I mentioned Mantle's championships only in relation to his hobby status over Mays. I didn't suggest that everyone who's ever won a championship is better than someone who didn't, or better than someone who won less than they did.

I would say the same thing about Joe DiMaggio and Ted Williams though. Joe D was a winner. Ted was not. If you ask me, that's why Joe D is the more popular player in the hobby. It doesn't make him "better" but I think it certainly makes him more popular and helps keep his cards at the elite level they are.

Mantle himself couldn't understand why.

As Paul Simon sang, every generation throws a hero up the pop charts. That hero, indisputably, was Mantle. Who by the way was Simon's inspiration for the great verse from Mrs. Robinson, but DiMaggio worked better musically.

Although is, and always has been, my favorite player. The 2 best hitters to ever play the game were Pete Rose and Ted Williams. I will state that neither have ever appealed to me in the collecting world.

Thank you, Peter, for that nice little nugget of information. I did not know Paul Simon had been inspired to use Mickey Mantle for the renown stanza / verse from Mrs. Robinson. Ten years ago or so, I was musing about the song, and replaced DiMag with Mantle. As I remember, it went something like this:

Where have you gone, Mickey Mantle?
Our nation turns its lonely eyes to you,
woo woo woo.
What's that you say, Mrs. Robinson?
The Mighty Mick has left and gone away
Oy Vey,
Oh woe.

Paul Simon made his choice, and it worked. However, I still wish I could have gone back in time, to try to convince him....;)

It's all good, Peter. Thanks again for sharing the story. Wishing you the best.

--- Brian Powell

The songwriter's favorite Yankee was actually Mickey Mantle, and according to Wikipedia, when Dick Cavett asked why Mantle's name wasn't used instead of DiMaggio, Simon replied "It's about syllables, Dick. It's about how many beats there are."

Fun.

I always figured it was more a function of Italian Renaissance Men like DiMaggio working better under the auspices of the liberal arts.

it's baseball cards

it's pop culture.

Marilyn Monroe, Elvis, The Mick

Was Monroe the BEST actress of her generation? NO

Was Elvis the BEST musician of his era? NO

After all these years it all becomes pop culture, not reality

Glorified memories

not quite
 

Except that Ruth, the T206 lineage as a whole and literally 20 other players who no one today saw play have all continued to appreciate. For 95+% of players you're correct, Mantle falls in the other 5% (Mays, Jackie, etc also in that crew)

not quite
 

Except that Ruth, the T206 lineage as a whole and literally 20 other players who no one today saw play have all continued to appreciate. For 95+% of players you're correct, Mantle falls in the other 5% (Mays, Jackie, etc also in that crew)

I don't see how Mantle prices, go down. Maybe they stagnate, but they pretty much are what they are. He is the main draw of post-war collectors, he will continue to be for as long as the Hobby is around. He's Mickey Mantle, as American as apple pie. He's a transcendent figure in the hobby.

It's been a year, but this one comes to mind:

https://bid.robertedwardauctions.com...?itemid=112451

Just to poke the bear a little, what's your best guess on what it would fetch today? Has it just stagnated or gone down?

I realize this is probably the high water mark, but I suspect it also proves the point that it's possible for even the mighty Mantle, including the mythical 311 to lose value. Particularly if you get into a major bidding war when you buy.

Now, if this owner holds for long enough, he'll probably come out ahead, or hopefully at least break even. Probably.

I am far from an expert, that issue is nicely centered though, which I believe, still commands a premium. I don't understand the circumstances that elevated that one particular auction to such a high, as if you're comparing the prices of PSA 5's, they don't come close to it. Perhaps you are right, the person got into a major bidding war and had to have that card.

I will say though, I think if you're spending 300K on a card, you don't necessarily have to worry about breaking even. Chances are you have more than enough money. But that is a different discussion, for a different time.

I've seen Shoestring Ohtami play a few times. Take my grandkids every year.

They paid "8" prices cause it had "Eye Appeal":D:D:D:D:D:rolleyes:

$130k Max...sadly he got caught up, he way way overpaid... if he can hold for 10 plus years he is fine, if not will be tough. He will have to deep six this card

REA giddy premium. It happens a lot.

In another era, I would agree with you. But I have thrown reason and expectations out the window the last 3 years.

Could it have been a collector buying it? Sure. It also could have been a flipper/ dealer looking for a mistake grade. Or worse, a quick flip.

This one played musical chairs from Heritage and PWCC…Feb 27 2022, $204,000 then May 19 2022 $180 PWCC 24k less.. did it ever really sell or was this a vault and swap? The world may never know ….

https://www.pwccmarketplace.com/prem...ampaign=impact

I was born in 1973 and when I got into the hobby (first packs were 78 topps) and as I was growing up, the 52 Mantle was THE card. It was seen as the holy grail to an entire additional generation. I didn't know anything about pre war cards until I saw an article on the Honus but by then I was well into my 30's. So the post war for me is still my main interest and he is the biggest name of that era; though my favorite player is Campanella and I am a Dodgers fan :)

Mantle
 

Stahl Meyer Mantle pretty scarce in this condition pop 22 in anything past a 1.0

https://photos.imageevent.com/mordec...yerMantle1.jpg https://photos.imageevent.com/mordec...yerMantle2.jpg

Hi, Sam Dodero. I really admire your beautiful 1953 Stahl-Meyer Franks Mickey Mantle. You are quite right; any grade of this card higher than a 1.0 is pretty scarce, and yours looks low high-grade. That says a lot for the typical appearance of this issue, doesn't it, Sam? Considering this baby is an early Mantle card, pop 22 for anything past 1.0 is startling, when you really think about it.

Sam, I've owned mine for a bit over 35 years, and I felt EXTREMELY FORTUNATE to win it then. I'm very happy to still own it. For years, it's been an overlooked, underappreciated card. Once PSA included it in their TOP 250 Sportscards of All Time, some collectors began to take more notice.

Most of the appreciation for Mantle centers on his 1952 Topps, and that is understandable. Unfortunately, hobby writers found it too easy to just write about the easy, meaning the '52 Topps. Considering what Gem Mint and Mint examples have sold for in the last 2 years, the '52 Topps Mick should continue to be written about. Nevertheless, hobby writers should write about the beautiful, tougher to find Mantles.

Back to the 1953 Stahl-Meyer Franks Mickey Mantle, I'll close with this. Remember Mr. Mint Alan Rosen? He's the dealer that engineered THE FIND of 1952 Topps high numbers, from whence came most all the highest graded '52 Topps Mantles. Well, I interviewed Rosen for my book on immediate post-war regional / food issues, and I asked him to compare a '52 Topps Mantle to a '53 Stahl-Meyer Franks Mantle. Alan had nothing to gain or lose in the matter; it was just a straight question. I have it on tape. His answer will blow you away, as it did me. Mr. Mint said:

"But the Mantle, to me the '52 Topps Mantle is sh** compared to a '53 Stahl-Meyer. ... " (Never Cheaper By the Dozen, page 207)

Well Sam, take care and continue to enjoy your Stahl-Meyer Mantle. I used to own a 1952 Topps Mickey Mantle, and loved it, and I miss it.:(

--- Brian Powell

Mantle
 

Personally, I prefer Jackie over Mantle for postwar. I see Robinson overcoming Mantle in the short term and over time.

Those are two very different propositions. :D

Stahl Meyer Mantle
 

Brian, Great info on the Stahl Meyer Mantle and story about Mr. Mint!!! And I do remember him as when I went to the conventions back in the 1980's & 90's He had the front table when you walked in. I Starting collecting back in 1983 and growing up in the Chicago area I got to know Bill Mastro and a few of his workers as well.

Thanks

Sam

The Stahl-Meyer issue is one of Mantle's nicest cards, in my opinion. You cannot go wrong with it. The photo, they used, was used on a couple of Mantle's alternative issues such as Briggs Meats, and his Dan-Dee issue. On the subject of alternative issues, another one of Mantle's best looking card, in my opinion, is his 1954 Red Heart.

I think the staying power that Mantle has, trumps pretty much every post-war player. Again, people have to realize he represents 1950's Americana. Those post war years, where the American dream was thriving. I think the thing that helps his mystique is the fact that he accomplished so much, but people still view him as one of the biggest "What If's?" due to his various injuries, and the fact that he put his body through hell, constantly boozing.

On the subject of other players overtaking him, I just don't see it. Yes Jackie's cultural significance in breaking the barrier was huge, I do think he will see an eventual bump, once Rachael passes away, as Jackie's always relevant name will receive even more publicity. But I still don't see him passing The Mick. Aaron and Mays both had better overall careers than Mickey, and even with the recent bumps Willie has gotten, neither are over taking him.

Rachael Robinson died last year.

Sent from my motorola edge 5G UW (2021) using Tapatalk

Not according to WIkipedia.

Rachel Annetta Robinson[1] (née Isum; born July 19, 1922)[1] is an American former professor and registered nurse. She is the widow of professional baseball player Jackie Robinson. After her husband's death, she founded the Jackie Robinson Foundation.

I stand corrected. And apologize.

Sent from my motorola edge 5G UW (2021) using Tapatalk

“The rumors of my demise have been greatly exaggerated.”