I think it's more of us suspecting the physical toll that pitching once every six days, and hitting the days that he "has off," will catch up to him. Everyone's bodies break down eventually, and he's been doing this for a bit. I'm not saying, it's going to happen, but even the mightiest in this game, have fallen. Father time, catches us all, and he might catch Ohtani quicker than others because of what he puts his body through. This is pure speculation though, and I'm enjoying the ride.

Oh was interviewed in Japanese media during the WBC about Ohtani and made some generic compliments about his performance. Oh is a front office executive for the Hawks (whom he used to manage), who were rivals of Ohtani's team (Fighters) so they've never actually met.

Back in the early days of NPB just before Oh came up it wasn't uncommon for players in Japan to do what Ohtani is doing - be both a star pitcher and star batter.

The guy who had the single season hit record in NPB before Ichiro broke it (Fumio Fujimura) also had a 34-11 career record with a 2.43 ERA on the mound.

Michio Nishizawa, who led the league in batting average and RBIs in 1952 also had 60 career wins on the mound (though playing for the Dragons he had a losing record).

There are a few other HOFers with similar hitting/pitching resumes. By the time Oh came up in 1959 it was a lot rarer and eventually died out until Ohtani came along.

Cannot disagree about most of your points. You are right. I am not concerned about the language.
But we will see how they replace all that production next years and the years going forward without those prospects and players they would have had.

Neither side is wrong in keeping or not keeping him. I just feel getting 2 months of Ohtani vs the long term potential of what they could have gotten is really going to hurt them.

and WOW #40 Last night and raising his average to .310 and on base to .413 is simply amazing.
Hopefully he is ok pitching short and long term as he had to stop pitching after great innings do to another minor issue.

Perhaps I am too much of a believer in motherhood and apple pie, but I'd like to think that the Angels had a man to man discussion with Ohtani in June and came to a gentleman's agreement about what his long term contract would be for 2024 and beyond. If Ohtani plays for two months and then leaves for another team, it would be such a tremendous loss of face for the Angels, and I just don't think Ohtani's camp would want that for the team that gave him his start in the MLB.

I also suspect that Ohtani has figured out that Tom Brady is a god in New England, Ichiro's money is no good at any bar in Seattle, and the whole world outside of Saudi Arabia thinks that Messi is awesome and Ronaldo is...less awesome.

Not that I would know, but I'd like to think that for athletes like Ohtani, legacy is the asset that they want to maximize.

The Angels owner isn't exactly known for his strong sentimental attachment to his team. Or even known for improving it. I wouldn't hold my breath.

Yeah, you got me on that one.

No one has any idea of what Arte Moreno thinks at any moment, guy is a bit of a nut job. Certainly seems to have no issue spending money, but does it in the wrong places, on the wrong guys.

Ohtani has admitted that playing for a losing team is exhausting. This team is at best a wild card team, with Trout and Ohtani. I think the chances of him staying with them, are slim to none.

Too bad Moreno did not sell the team.

If he did a new owner or ownership group might have been able to produce both the money and the plan to win to potentially convince him to stay.

But no sale and no plan means Bye Bye Birdy.

Would be great to see him stay and even better if the team could compete each year
Would love to see him and trout in the playoffs

Last night's game was a perfect microcosm of their season - Ohtani pitches lights out, single-handedly ties up the game (IBB, SB, scores on a "no shift rule" single), and then their closer blows the game in epic fashion. Without Trout they are basically a one-man team

And with Trout they still have the same crappy bullpen. The problem with the team is the bullpen.

They have had 22 pitchers this year who have not started a game and arguably the best of the lot walks the first three batters on 14 pitches and then surrenders a grand slam to a fellow who is not exactly well known named Marlowe.

Well, the Angels are now 0-6 since the trade deadline. I wonder if their fans are starting to accept that not trading him when they could was a colossal blunder. Now they won't get anything for him!

I hope for their fans they play better down the stretch and at least make it competitive because as of now 7 games out of the WC with several teams in front of them.

And if they were hoping to convince him to stay this losing streak is not helping any.

As mentioned, can you guys think of another instance in which a player having a historic year, like Ohtani is, was traded midway through the season?

Maris didn't get traded. The Yankees didn't trade Judge. Williams didn't get traded while hitting 400. Neither did Bill Terry. Denny McClain won 30 games for the Tigers. McGwire, Sosa, and Bonds, all not traded.

Can you think of anyone?

Maybe McGwire when he got traded from Oakland to St. Louis? He had 34 Homers through 105 games, and then went on a tear and came close to equaling Maris in 1997, when he finished with 58 homers, cumulatively.

Don't think so. Griffey had 30 by the All Star break that year. McGwire had one extra home run. I have no recollection of a chase between him and Griffey.

…..and they got straight up garbage in return for him.

The Angels managed to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory last night. Painful to watch.

Their bullpen is remarkably consistent.:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

7 Loses in a Row since the trade deadline. That is not what their fans were hoping for in their final 2 months of his Angels Career. They were in the 3rd Wild Card spot playoff hunt. Now they are fading fast and 8 games behind.

and Yes their Relief Corp is the most Consistent in the League. Sadly they consistently Suck:mad::mad::mad::confused:

Bad week for Charlie Sheen.

Bad year

It's telling that Ohtani was visibly frustrated after closing out the 6th inning -- this is after giving up only one unearned run (which was the only run scored against him in the past 19 innings). Seems like he holds himself to pretty high expectations.

Then he gets on base twice and scores a run in what would be considered an off night for him in the offensive department.

Let's just hope he doesn't fall in love with a Kardashian and commit some unnatural acts personally that impacts his professional game.

First member of the 40/10 club (home runs/wins).

I wonder if anyone will ever join him.

I think someone may (as a dual player) but not necessarily the 40/10 club. Now that players and teams see it can be done (especially utilizing the DH position that makes it easier to protect the player from the risks of injury of playing in the field). But it may take some time because someone has grow and develop into that player so they may not even be in the minors yet.

keeps making history. And keeps missing out on the playoffs.

You see his frustration and that will be his face for the next two months while he chases more amazing individual stats and closes in on an MVP and then he can figure out what he wants to do and where with the off season.

Simply amazing

You have to feel for him.

He hits a grand slam (#43 homer on the year)

His team pulls off a triple play to get out of an inning)first in over 20 years)


And yet they still lose

He and their fans deserve better

But there is hope. Trout comes back next week and they are only 7.5 games back for the 3rd wildcard spot

When was the last time a sports team wasted the careers of not one, but two generational talents?

If Trout never wins, he has only himself to blame. Presumably Ohtani won't make the same mistake.

I won't disagree, Peter, Trout is most likely on the back half of his career though. Not saying that he won't have any more good seasons ahead of him, but the Angels allowed his prime to come and go, and didn't even sniff a world series.

I can't think of another situation like this. Complete ineptitude by the organization. Any Angels fans on here? I'd love to hear what they think of the current debacle.

Mariners 1995 - Present.

90s = KGJ, ARod, Randy Johnson.... although they made the playoffs, could never get over the hill.

2005 - 2015 = Ichiro, Beltre, Felix Hernandez, Cano.

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He signed his long term deal in 2019. He was what, 28 at the time? It's on him.

The Padres
1992-1993 = Tony Gwynn, Fred McGriff, Gary Sheffield.

1994-2001 = Tony Gwynn and Trevor Hoffman.

I do not consider their careers playoff wasted

Tony Gwynn was in 27 playoff games 3 different years
Trevor Hoffman in 12 playoff games in 4 different years
Fred McGriff won a World Series and in 5 different years and 50 playoff games
Gary Sheffield was in 44 playoff games over 6 different years and won a World Series championship

So they may not have done much with a particular team they all played multiple years in the playoffs and 2 of the 4 won a championship

Trout has never sniffed the playoffs

2014.

Unfortunately, 2014 was it for Trout and they lost 3-0 in their one series. Most years the Angels haven't been close to making it and the Pujols signing didn't work out as he declined over the time he was there. Trout chose to sign a long deal and stay. It will be interesting to see if the Angels are willing to offer Ohtani a big enough deal to make him consider staying.

IMO there is zero chance Ohtani stays. Past a certain point it's funny money and obviously there is no shortage of teams willing to make him fabulously rich. If he loves So Cal he can go to the Dodgers.

Peter, I agree that at a certain point you would think a little bit more money wouldn't matter, but it usually ends up being the highest bidder that signs the player so hard to believe it will be different with Ohtani.

Stand corrected.

Not sure how I missed it/forgot it

True but I can't believe this young man of unique talents isn't dying to get out of there and get to someplace where he can compete.

Rendon, Trout, Urshela, Moniak, Moustakis, Drury, Renfroe. The Angels need a few pitchers next year. See if Giolito can pan-out. I'd stay there.

I am sure he will get the best of both worlds.

There are enough teams with the money that he will get his money, he will play on a winning team, and if he choses he can live where he wants to.

He will get quality of life and quality of work life and enjoy his life.

with his skill set and style he will survive and prosper.

Will be fun watching

Ohtani is confirmed to have torn his UCL again, per the Angels GM. It's unclear whether it will require surgery, but he won't pitch for the rest of the year. I've linked the tweet below.

https://x.com/jeffpassan/status/1694...9Tg4v1McmAcYQA

Clearly he should dedicate himself to hitting. 2nd UCL tear. He's an elite hitter, and should continue as such.

Agree. Take his 2nd MVP award and then move to right field. Where he might even win a few Gold Gloves.

As an aside, I find it incredible that he's throwing 94 mph with a torn UCL.

I believe Nolan Ryan threw a 98 MPH fastball on his last pitch, with a torn UCL, at the age of 46.

Wow

No pitching test of year and potentially surgery but they are no sure. That question can cost him $
Tens of millions of dollars in his next contract depending on the answer.

So he hits the rest of the year and gets his MVP as someone mentioned,
Trout goes back on the IL after playing just 1 game and maybe out rest of year.

Sad for the Fans in LA and not the 2 month send off they thought

Wow and not even a play off race

Now, w/ the UCL, is a perfect time for the Yankees or Mets to overpay....

I'm not convinced he had any future in pitching after this season anyway. Not so sure it'll cost him anything.

A reminder that "investing" in younger players always comes with significant risk.

From what I am reading if it is confirmed by their 2nd opinion that they are getting with other doctors that it is truly torn than it would require Tommy John surgery (which he had several years ago) and he would not pitch until the 2025 season.
Even then anyone thinking of signing in as a pitcher/hitter will have a long hard pause at his long term viability of him pitching and how long he can last after 2 such surgeries and the risk of another injury.

We are talking he could lose $100 million but most likely a lot more vs what he could have negotiated if he had not gotten hurt.

Thinking the pitching days are over. Would have pulled the plug on that 2 years ago and made him a full time outfielder. If back at close to 100% my guess is Max. 40 million per for 6-8 years, so 240-320 total. At a 33-40% discount maybe a few more teams are now in play. SF looking more and more likely to me. My 2 cents anyway...

All due respect but this Giants hype the last two seasons is nuts. There was zero chance Judge would sign with them and he didn't. There's zero chance Ohtani would ever sign with them either. They stink. He may as well stay where he is and play with Trout if he's going to play with nobody on the Giants.

He is going to sign for the same amount of money he would have pre-injury. I keep saying that I don't think a single team was banking on Ohtani being a member of their rotation for any length of time. I'm not really seeing a diminishing return with this news. Especially when you factor in all the eyes he'll bring wherever he goes.

He can't play OF until his arm heals, just like Bryce Harper. So now he must decide if he will strictly DH, or get surgery and try to rush back like Harper. Bad timing either way for teams looking at signing him.

While on a new team lets say he opts for surgery; he could be like Acuna, injured and not playing when the team wins a WS.

As for salary, his future earnings have definitely decreased. If they were at $500m, a team knows they need to invest in an injured player. Would Mariners do that? I don't think so. So now his West Coast options are Dodgers, Padres, Giants. I agree Padres and Giants are risky if Ohtani has a win now mentality. Padres are about to be torn down. So then that leaves Dodgers. Would Dodgers offer $400m? I don't think so.

Part of the reason for Dodgers recent success is because they have acted like the Cardinals, and they don't sign long term contracts with players who will become beached whales with 4 yrs remaining. I would say Dodgers offer 5 years, $30m, $150m guaranteed, with incentives for more money that could bring yearly salaries up to $50m if he reaches 40 HR, 100 RBI, AS, MVP, GG, if he pitches again, etc etc. If Ohtani opts for surgery, Dodgers know they have invested $30m for one year of nothing.

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He has been huge of course in the card world. What percentage on average do his rookie cards drop now?

Doesn't seem to be a lot of unusual selling pressure in his higher grade rookie cards so far. Then again, people are still spending $150 on Wander Franco cards over the past 12 hours.

He definitely will sign for less now. Not even a question. If he goes from being a 2 way player, and significant draw because of that, to now an injury risk, granted a very good position player, or worse just a DH, no way he gets what he would have gotten.

Unless one of 2 last place New York teams do what they usually do, overspend and lose.

But he has said he wants to win (toss out both NY) so only East Coast team I see him going to is Baltimore (maybe Boston), but more likely he'll land on the West Coast. 3-4-5 teams equal to or better than NY teams so why head East. Doesn't even make sense to consider, both NY teams 2-3 years (minimum) away from being competitive (WS bound)again, in regards to the divisions they are in too.

How can you say both NY teams are far off from competing when the offseason hasn't even happened yet? The Yankees were playing in the ALCS just last year. And when you're talking about the Yankees you aren't talking about a team who has to see if prospects pan out. This offseason has a large free agent pool of quality players. This is just something people who don't like the Yankees say about them.

+1 on that

The Orioles haven't appeared in the postseason in 7 years, but yeah, that's the most logical AL East destination for a guy looking to win.

Fear the Bird.

Are we talking about the New York Yankees? They are arguably further off from competing than the Mets are, given that they don't like to spend money anymore and that every team in their division is clearly better. They will need a massive shift (and a bunch of new players) to have a prayer of competing in 2024.

Going back to Ohtani, I very much doubt he will go anywhere except the west coast. I also think, even with the injury, he will set the record for most total dollars in a contract.

The Yankees are in last place and have a losing record. They have 2 starters with a league average OPS. Doesn't mean they will continue to suck, but last place teams are not usually considered winning destinations. The Orioles are in 1st place with a balanced, younger team with most of them outperforming the league.

Last year, the Yankees played in the ALCS. Their roster this year isn't all that different. The difference are injuries and lapses in production from most of the same players who took the team to the ALCS last year.

The Mets lost in the Wild Card series last year, totally revamped their roster, then traded their biggest signings away.

So, why are the Mets better?

I understand that but the Yankees aren't a basement dwelling team and they have an owner who wants to win, which is largely different from what you'll find in Baltimore. Baltimore is good this year. Their owner is largely considered one of the worst in the American League.

The Mets aren't better, but they have an owner who is willing to spend (like the Yankees used to have). For this reason I believe they are closer to competing next year and beyond than the Yankees are.

Half the Yankees position players are dead weight (including Stanton), their pitching staff is in shambles (don't tell me you trust Severino or Rodon even a little bit), and their bullpen is inconsistent, especially at the back end.

I'll bet on the team that is going to pay big money for FAs and have Edwin Diaz back for next year and beyond.

There's a Blowout poll about Ohtani card price changes.

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showthread.php?t=1566180

Spoiler alert, most people so far think 20-40%, with a bunch of people 0-20%.

The last time his market tanked I managed to pick this up for $250. I'd do it again:

https://live.staticflickr.com/1876/2...0f1b2cb1_w.jpg

Yes Yankees were in the ALCS last year, but did you forget how awful they looked. They didn't belong on the same field as the Astros. And they've regressed this year, so if you think they are on the cusp of the World Series, with teams like Baltimore, Houston, Texas, Seattle, Tampa, Toronto, and Minnesota all ahead of them enjoy your delusions.


Had to re-check. They lost to the Astros 4 games to 0. Struck out 17 times in Game 1, 13 times in Game 2. Batted .162 for the Series.

They are 23rd in runs scored this year, behind the Rockies and Nationals. 29th in team batting average, ahead of only the A's.

Yep they are on the cusp alright.

Of all the teams you mentioned ahead of the Yankees only the Astros have won a World Series in the last 30 years.

Right, I'm talking about the present time and near future. The Yankees have all these teams to pass. So it's not like they are knocking on the door.

That offense sucks. Surely you can acknowledge that.

They are very literally in the basement right now. Let me guess, you are a Yankees fan?

I’m not saying the current state of the team is good or that the Yankees are having a good season. I’m saying the foundation is there to win. They were in the ALCS last season with a roster that hasn’t changed much. They’re just not producing when healthy combined with not being healthy at all. If Ohtani does want to win and sign a long term deal with a team dedicated to being competitive year after year, the Yankees are a team that fits that mold.

I wouldn’t say the same thing about the Twins, for example.

Red Sox?

Interesting poll -- Should be fun to see how the market speaks over time. If he never throws another pitch, he's still a guy who won (assuming he wins this year) two MVPs as a two-way player, which as we all know hasn't been done in three generations. Juan Gonzales, Dale Murphy and Roger Maris are the 3 two-time MVPs not in the Hall. Granted, they have pretty strong records. But they didn't also pitch.

If Ohtani's downside as a player from here is 5 years as a poor man's Ichiro -- plus 20-35 home runs per year -- he's probably still a first ballot hall of famer.

Denial is not just a river in Egypt.

How'd that work out for Gerritt Cole?

4 years with the Yankees so far, ZERO World Series appearances.

Had he re-signed with Houston, he'd be a Champion, and have 2 WS appearances. Possibly a 3rd this year.

Not a chance on earth he signs that low.

It’s still going to be the all time high, No doubt about it. If anyone hesitates to throw 450-500 million out with incentives, another team will step right in. The additional revenue to a major market team will pay for it.

Plus, tommy John is a routine surgery in baseball…to the point it’s a bonus if a pitcher has already had it in hopes the chance of reoccurrence is low. Multiple is a newer phenomenon but getting more regular with several current pitchers in the league with two. Even if he has another he definitely taking the mound again. The success of that is to be determined.

I think the Yankees biggest faults are that their player development system needs to be revamped, and that they failed to address pressing needs in the off-season. Yes the re-signing of Aaron Judge was fantastic as he's a great ballplayer, but the writing was on the wall with Donaldson at third base, and they failed to address the need in Left Field.

Too much of the front office has been in power for too long. I think Cashman is a somewhat competent GM, his blunders are magnified due to the poor performance of this year, but I still think he's capable. However change is needed. People in the same situation for too long, grow too complacent. The Yankees should be banging down the door to speak to guys like James Click, Theo Epstien and Rob Neander. We're a team that's worth 8 Billion dollars, use your resources to bolster front office, and player development. It's unacceptable that we struggle to develop quality talent, and prospect hug the hell out of guys, until they're no longer valuable.

In my honest opinion though, Hal Steinbrenner is nothing like his father. Yes George was impulsive and hot headed, but he wanted to win. His impulsiveness was weighed down, most of the time, when he was surrounded by competent individuals such as Bob Watson, Gene Michael and a Younger Brian Cashman. Who were able to make good baseball decisions, and able to talk George out of making certain moves most of the time. Some pleas fell on deaf ears, such as when Cashman wanted Vlad Guerrero over Gary Sheffield, only for George to overrule him. Despite all of that though, when the Yankees didn't do well, George would make heads roll. Hal seems very content, utilizing the Yankees as a brand, and fielding a roster that's just good enough to make the playoffs.

The results for pitchers after a second Tommy John surgery seem to be mixed so it's hard to predict how well Ohtani will do if he's on the mound again. If he doesn't pitch, it would seem like he could still end up with contract offers around what Aaron Judge got from the Yankees or given the uncertainty, does he have to take a short term deal then become a free agent again once he shows what he can still do?

https://www.mlb.com/news/pitchers-to...-surgery-twice

'Wasted career': Don Mattingly. One playoff loss in 1st round, retired just before the Yankees' big run.

Trout to the Dodgers...just sayin'. Let the man contend for a title up the road and DH to close his career.

If I am a GM I am not going to pay up for Ohtani now because odds are he is going to be mediocre and/or shut down as a pitcher, and he will most likely not play in 2024.

I suspect that the Angels did not trade him because they knew he was hurt and would not have passed a physical, and that they did not shut him down earlier because they knew he wasn't coming back next year regardless. As cold-blooded as the business is, the Angels may have figured to wring every last attendance and merch dollar out of him for the rest of the year, and if it wrecked him for the next team, who cares.

If I was him, I would take the year to fully rehab, then put on a road show once better and enter the free agent market in 2025. It is a risk but if he comes back and shows the same pop as a hitter, he will still get the big bucks.

I know Harper had Tommy John but are there other hitters in recent memory to have it? At least in Harper’s case he seems to be producing at a comparable level to before his injury.