Hornsby doesn't get his proper due. Overall, Hornsby out-hit Cobb and Cobb is always mentioned in the greatest ever hitter convo.

Cobb .366/.433/.512 OPS+ 168
Hornsby .358/.434/.577 OPS+ 175

Very well agreed and here is card in on honor of this

I'm not sure I understand the connection between greatest right handed hitter and World Series wins. Many people consider Ted Williams the greatest left handed hitter and he has no World Series wins. If they had been switched between the Yankees and Red Sox, it's not hard to imagine their individual numbers of World Series wins also being switched even if they had the exact same stats. In baseball, winning a World Series is more about the overall team than 1 player.

Unless I've missed it, I'm going to throw out a name that absolutely belongs in the discussion, and may in fact be the top guy: Josh Gibson. His entire stat sheet on baseball reference is just bold everywhere.

Edit - I missed it, one other poster mentioned Gibson previously. The rest of my point stands.

Isn't it obvious? Having better teammates, especially pitchers, makes you a better right-handed hitter.

OPS+ does fine adjusting for parks. It just has a problem adjusting for right-hand hitters in Yankee Stadium. Your points there are valid.

Still, Dick Allen had it worse. He played his home games at Connie Mack, Comiskey, Veterans, Chavez Ravine, and Busch Memorial. All big parks, most with high walls and lots of room in foul territory.

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It does a good job if you are willing to accept a 10+% error rate and that two players within 20-25 points may be equal hitters.

There is some truth to that statement. 20-25 may be a tad high though.

Dick Allen was brought up above and how he played in pitchers parks.

Here is the dilemma. Was Allen really hurt by his parks?

Allen's lifetime Home OPS was .932
Allen's lifetime road OPS was .892

Players generally have a littler better hitting in their home park(independent of park factors), but here Allen has more than a little better hitting at home.

So the question is, was Allen really hurt by his home parks being that he did much better at home, or were his home parks suppressing that .932 and it really would have been .950 if his parks weren't so tough....but if it were to be .950 in a neutral park, then why was it only .892 when he did hit in all the rest of the parks? A dilemma.

Park factors do exist. Nailing them down to 100% accuracy is impossible. They are certainly pieces to the puzzle though.

On the flip side, Larry Walker hit at home waaaay better than what the park adjustments show. He may have been helped MORE than the park factors are already 'deducting' when they take Coors into account.

Same with Wade Boggs at Fenway. He was a completely different hitter outside of Fenway. Fenway factor deducts this a little, but it is possible it should deduct it even more for Boggs.

Really talented hitters are able to take advantage of their surroundings more effectively than others. Players like Boggs, Walker, Mel Ott were better at taking advantage of their home parks than other players on their team. Ultimately, OPS+ needs to adjust a player's home field advantage evenly across players.

Not sure if anyone on this board knows the inner workings of OPS+, but I'd be interested to know how OPS+ accounts for batting right handed at Fenway vs. being a left-handed hitter. Either way, should Boggs be penalized because he was better at hitting doubles off of the Green Monster than his right handed contemporaries?

I agree that Hornsby, Gibson, Aaron, and Mays are top. But I think more deserving than Pujols is a name I think nobody mentioned yet, Manny Ramirez.
He was a very good right handed batter.

It's a little misleading to just go with home/road splits for Allen since he played for 5 teams during his career. Instead, let's go with his "home parks" and his "road parks" - that is, the 5 parks he called home at any time and then the rest of the parks he played in.

Doing it this way, his "home parks" result in an OPS of .934 and his "road parks" result in an OPS of .887. Actually, not all that far off your numbers now that I look at it :)

His numbers are significantly boosted by his Chicago numbers where Allen put up a 1.026 OPS during his career.

So, was Allen hurt by playing in pitchers' parks? No.

Is it….? Team sport, yes, but 1 player can swing the entire series.



Actually it does…. Being surrounded by elites raises ones game. If it doesn’t, you’re out. When a team gels they all become better.

Saying Ted would have been amazing on the Yankees is overreaching. Ted on the Yankees is an unknown.

One player can't get them to that series in the first place though. Especially in the era of only two teams play in the post season.

You're really making the case that having better pitchers on your team makes you a better hitter?

Yeah, and rings have become an exponentially worse measure of a player's quality as the number of rounds in the playoffs have increased. Nobody's winning 9 championships in MLB anymore.

Are you really making a case that championships aren’t a good measure of a players quality?

If you look at the list of top 20 players with the most WS rings, 19 of them won all or most of their rings with the Yankees. Only Eddie Collins made the list without the help of being on the Yankees.

No Cobb, Williams, Mays, Aaron, Mathewson, Young, Koufax, Foxx, W Johnson, Clemente, Trout, Bench, Schmidt, Morgan, Seaver, Ryan, etc.

Over half of the top 20 championship ring holders are not even in the HOF. Johnny Murphy who?

Looks to me like you just had to be on the Yankees sometime from the 1930s to the 1950s and collect your rings.

And as far as the OP's question, I'd list, in order:

1. Aaron
2. Mays
3. Foxx
4. Hornsby

Since 'The Greatest' is not a counting stat, it depends on how you weigh certain things like average vs power, peak vs. longevity, runs produced vs on-base percentage, etc. With so many great players, there is no single right answer.

100% yes.

So your answer is no then.

Yes, I'm making the case that championships aren't a good measure of a player's quality. Marty Castillo and Tom Brookens have more championships than Ernie Banks and Ted Williams.

Rogers Hornsby.

I can only vouch for the players that I saw. Just think of the great pitchers Mays & Aaron faced.

1- Willie Mays
2 - Hank Aaron
3 - Pujols

Thanks for posting the link that you did. As pointed out in the article that goes along with the top 20 list, "Ralph Houk, who only played 91 games in eight seasons, yet is the proud owner of six World Series rings."

I'd like to see a list that includes rings for coaching and managing... That list is for rings as a player.

Berra and Crosetti would move up the list, I think Frisch would get on the list.

WS rings, MVP awards, and the like, have nothing to do with being the greatest right handed hitter. But I'd still like to see such a list.

"Nothing" is a bit of an over, er, understatement, but if you compare the list of top 10 players by WS rings vs. by career WAR, there's no question which one is the better indication of how good a player one was. Even just looking at who played the most total games does a slightly better job of sorting out the best players than rings does, as the latter is mainly just an indication of who had a nice career with the Yankees in the 20th century.

1. Yogi Berra
2. Joe DiMaggio
3. Bill Dickey
3. Phil Rizzuto
3. Frank Crosetti
3. Lou Gehrig
7. Hank Bauer
7. Mickey Mantle
7. Babe Ruth
7. Johnny Murphy
7. Tommy Henrich
7. Herb Pennock

1. Babe Ruth
2. Walter Johnson
3. Cy Young
4. Barry Bonds
5. Willie Mays
6. Ty Cobb
7. Hank Aaron
8. Roger Clemens
9. Tris Speaker
10. Honus Wagner

1. Pete Rose
2. Carl Yastrzemski
3. Hank Aaron
4. Rickey Henderson
5. Albert Pujols
6. Ty Cobb
7. Eddie Murray
7. Stan Musial
9. Willie Mays
10. Cal Ripken, Jr.

Amen.....Hornsby could weld a bat, but "Say Hey" Willie Mays could bring it and then some. Willie was a site to see.

Make it a GREAT week !

It's about hitting... period.

It's not who has the best WAR, MVPs, or anything else. It's not about most homeruns. The question was hitting.


Koufax has 4 World Series rings, and an MVP award... he must have been a great right handed hitter.

Frank,

I'm waiting for your Kirby Puckett nomination as greatest right-handed hitter, given your strenuous support of his HOF enshrinement :D

muhammad Ali was a right handed hitter boy could he hit..best all time

Todd, Jake, thank you both, you've given me smiles to start my day.

I guess I should suggest Mike Schmidt as the greatest right handed hitter... but then I'd have to post about how misguided that would be. He was a mediocre hitter. He could crunch home runs, excellent fielder, great arm on those long throws from third base. He had a lot of walks, some attributable to a good eye and plate discipline, some intentional walks, and some because the defense just wanted to pitch around him given the situation.

I saw Mays and Aaron in the mid 60s. Aaron could move the bat through the strike zone with what seemed minimal effort; a quick, smooth swing. As a kid then, I didn't appreciate what was involved in moving the hands closer to the plate, or further away, because the pitch was out or in... Aaron was a smooth fielder, he would run, field, and throw in a way that didn't draw attention to what he was doing. Mays was different. He'd catch balls on the move. If the ball was hit 20' to his right, he'd break late and be moving as he got to where the ball was; if the ball was 70' to his left he'd break on the ball and be moving as he caught that ball. And he'd do that basket catch that little league coaches hated. If he was throwing a ball back in with no one on, it most likely was thrown underhanded. Running the bases he'd lose his hat; rounding third his arms would be churning on those broad shoulders and he looked like a freight train heading toward the plate. Catchers in their gear were hardly a match for Willie with a head of steam heading for the plate.

I remain unconvinced that there's been a better right handed hitter since Rogers Hornsby. Aaron and Mays were great right handed sluggers, and hitters. Wagner was pretty good, he wasn't just a face on a ball card. In a few years when we see the final totals on Trout, I think they'll be a slightly short of Pujols' numbers.

So I think that Mr. Reality 68 back up there in post #11 has the top five listed:

Hornsby
Aaron
Mays
Wagner
Pujols


It'd take a bunch of listing before we reached whatever number Kirby P would be.

Puckett vs Trout
 

If you compare Trout to Puckett, how close are the stats?

Trout leads in HR and BB, which lend to higher OBS percentage. Puckett played 150 games 8 times, Trout 4. Trout has great stats for generating WAR. Puckett would take a swing versus a walk. Personally, I would rather have a guy up there swinging with runners in scoring position. Look how low Tony Gwynn's WAR is for being such a great hitter. Low walk totals each year. It just appears to me that BB, which are better than outs most of the time, are overrated.

Back on point, my number 1 Right-Handed Hitter would be Josh Gibson.

Best right handed HITTER from all time...

Rajah!!!

https://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan...yBat%20_2_.jpg



Unquestionably, the best answer to this quiz is......Ed Delahanty.

If he had not passed away so tragically, Ed would have topped Ty Cobb's career Batting Average.

Ed's batting performance actually improved, as he got older. Not too many ballplayers can boast
of doing that. The last 10 years of his career, he batted an unbelievable .374

From all I have read regarding Ed, I'm convinced he was the "Greatest" Right-Handed Hitter".


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

Delahanty... among the best of the right handed hitters. I mentioned him in post #18.

I found Sowell's book July 2, 1903: The Mysterious Death of Hall-Of-Famer Big Ed Delahanty to be a most enlightening book. He covers Big Ed, the infancy of the 2 league system that we have today, the leagues' inclination to honor one another's contracts, and what baseball was like at the beginning of the 20th century. I recommend this book!

Now back to the best of the best of right handed hitters... I found another card.

I think Delahanty is right up there. I got curious and I was wondering what he would have had to do to top Cobb's lifetime average if he had not died.

He ended his career with a .346 average at age 35 with 2597 hits in 7510 ABs. If he hit .400 for the next six years going 240 for 600 (more hits and at bats than he ever had in a season) he would have 4037 hits and 11110 ABs for an average of .363 and would still be below Cobb. Even playing to age 42 and averaging .400 for seven seasons only gets him to .365. (For the purposes of this, I am pretending he did not die in 1903 but merely was disabled for the remainder of the season...but a full season of .333 in 1903 would not have helped him, which was his average that year.)

Considering that his averages his last four seasons were .323, .354. .376, and .333 I have to respectfully disagree that he would have surpassed Cobb's lifetime average if he had not died.

Don't blame me! Blame Excel for doing the calculations!

Haven't posted this one in a while. Seems like a good opportunity.

Nice research! Those are fair points--there is virtually no chance he could have equaled Cobb's career BA record. Delahanty was a great player, probably the best right handed hitter of his era. But it may be a stretch to call him the best right handed hitter ever.

It looks like Ed's bat is smoking.

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Ed Delahanty
 

Michael

Why are you taking ONLY his last 4 seasons ?

I based my statistical projection on his last 10 seasons in which he batted an amazing .374

Your "4-year analysis" doesn't do-it.....you ignored 6 seasons of his significant batting performance.


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

Honestly, I probably should not have mentioned those four seasons because that had nothing to do with my analysis.

Whatever he hit in any span of his previous seasons, to catch Cobb he would need to hit .400 for seven straight full seasons going 240 for 600 each year (and even then he would be one point short). I was just saying that I do not think he would have caught Cobb given that it is very hard to raise your career average 20 points when you already have 7510 ABs.

Since the next time a player hit .400 was in 1911, it is just my opinion that Delahanty would not have hit .400 for seven straight seasons from 1904-1910 starting at age 36.

Here is another way to look at it. Say Delahanty played 10 more seasons and hit .375 each year (225/600). He would end his career with 4847 hits in 13510 ABs and a .359 lifetime average. So even if he had another ten years hitting what he did in his last ten years, he would not have caught Cobb.

I am not saying he is not in the conversation for greatest right-handed hitter. I am just saying that I don't think he would have caught Cobb if he didn't die when he did.

Edited to add: I am sticking with Hornsby who hit .382 for the ten years 1920-1929.

I've always thought the placement of his name on this AND his 33 Goudey were rather unfortunate. They both bother me.