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Peter_Spaeth 02-12-2023 12:52 PM
Look at discussion starting at 60.

G1911 02-12-2023 01:38 PM
After reading it, my main problem with this ruling is that it dodges around the logical problems instead of addressing them.

Some of what the professors are teaching and specifically listed is clearly not banned by this law at all, and some of it is (the parts that openly racist, just racism directed against the correct race). That a teacher feels a need to self-censor their racism (38) I have a difficult time finding much empathy with. Just as if a teacher was preaching white supremacy to their class, I would expect them to face repercussion and be fired (as they 100% would be), I find it difficult to understand why it's exact reverse is somehow good. The court certainly doesn't want to ever touch on allowing this kind of speech in universities from whites with the wrong view.

The primary argument against this in the text is the first amendment concerns, which is also my problem with the law. However, the big problem is that this law isn't special. If it is in violation of the first amendment by regulating what can and cannot be taught in the classroom (and I think a good argument is made here and via common sense that it is), pretty much every education law in the nation needs to be thrown out too for violation of the same. This is a niche position of an element of the libertarian right, and so of course it cannot be endorsed, only applied to this specific law, and no others that regulate classroom instruction, materials, and subject. That's my big problem here. The outrage over this is not "the state should not censor at all, a teacher should be able to say anything they want no matter how reprehensible as the 1st allows", it's outrage that they can't teach racism in general, to any race. If the bill banned teaching only white supremacy, it would be unanimous. It's only because it bans teaching racism against ANY race that there is a public outcry and anger. None of this addressed, it goes out of it's way to try and not explain how this law and this law alone is a violation of the first; it only argues that this law violates the first, which it very well may.

It does acknowledge that public education is "committed to the control of state and local authorities", which it then seeks to undermine as much as possible because while that outcome is generally desired, it is bad in this one instance. It's use of Bishop is pretty weak, and I don't see that case having much bearing here. On the other side, I found the state's argument of Title IX is also very weak and uncompelling.

Page 102 states there is not a savings clause in the IFA bill, unlike the anti-semitism statute. This is plainly false, and other parts of this court ruling (including just 9 pages later) acknowledge the savings clause. Unless I'm misreading it, this is patently absurd. 79-83 are this clause, very, very explicitly. There are a number of points where this ruling seems to not be responding to the law at all, but political opinion. The ruling tries not to endorse the right of a teacher to say whatever they want, by effectively requiring the university itself to agree with it (and thus, protecting far left ideology that universities tend to lean too without having to protect other viewpoints) (105). The ruling attacks the vagueness with some sarcasm, though it seems to have difficulty stipulating which words are problematic, as terms like critical race theory are not present and the language is quite direct. It ends up focusing on the savings clause, that just a few pages ago it insisted didn't exist, that permits "discussion" if "given in an objective matter without endorsement". Fact vs. advocacy I have a hard time seeing a problem separating. Again, if this is the standard, we need to throw out the vast majority of US law as well. The ones I have to deal with are certainly much more vague than this. The conclusion is pure political theater, complete with an Orwellian reference to wrap it up (without ever explaining, of course, how not openly teaching racism in the classroom is a great curb of free speech but other education laws are not).


I did skim read the questions of standing, which aren't really applicable to the subject.

I am still no closer to being able to find what specifically is objectionable in this bill, unless we argue that all education bills are objectionable because what is taught should not be dictated to the teacher and should not be chosen by the state. Which is a pretty far right decision. If we are fine with all other (or most) such bills though - how is this one different and objectionable? Nobody can ever answer this question without using political statements and op-eds filled with falsehoods that have nothing to do with the actual law.

Peter_Spaeth 02-12-2023 01:41 PM
Page 60 and the next several pages specifically explain what the court thinks arguably could violate the language of the statute. It is just one man's read of course, albeit a federal judge. But to me it underscores that some of the language is vague and could be applied in an undesirable way.

G1911 02-12-2023 01:53 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth (Post 2313723)
Page 60 and the next several pages specifically explain what the court thinks arguably could violate the language of the statute. It is just one man's read of course, albeit a federal judge. But to me it underscores that some of the language is vague and could be applied in an undesirable way.
That's the section I referred to with "Some of what the professors are teaching and specifically listed is clearly not banned by this law at all, and some of it is (the parts that openly racist, just racism directed against the correct race). "

Some of this is plainly not banned by the law. For example, Novoa's 3 bulletpoints for the history of sport plainly do not violate the third provision. It is not banned to say people experienced racism (in fact, it is required to do so by the law, in a part nobody wants to talk about).

Others are banned by this law. I have a hard time seeing the objection though, again, unless we want to throw out all education law. For example, Novoa's others course that it is said teaches collective cross-generation responsibility for wrongs against certain groups (and only certain groups, only people of certain races are, of course, to be held responsible for the actions of others). Why would this be a good thing to teach children? Why would we want to teach racism? Again, if we don't object to anything here specifically but only general 1st grounds, why are we not objecting to almost every education law in the United States that determines what is and is not taught in schools?

It makes no sense whatsoever to hold this law to a different standard from every other law of its type, because people who want to preach their racist dislike of a single race to children are upset.

Peter_Spaeth 02-12-2023 02:06 PM
People at the school and community level can make a judgment not to teach critical race theory in K-12 without needing a law explicitly banning it. And I am all in favor of allowing a professor to teach it in college, such is academic freedom. I don't like the theory, but then again I did not grow up and experience the world as a black person so I try to withhold judgment a bit.

Peter_Spaeth 02-12-2023 02:10 PM
What would you think of a law that banned schools from teaching books that use the N word?

G1911 02-12-2023 02:17 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth (Post 2313735)
People at the school and community level can make a judgment not to teach critical race theory in K-12 without needing a law explicitly banning it.
So it should be a school board meeting or a county law, and that's the objection?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth (Post 2313735)
And I am all in favor of allowing a professor to teach it in college, such is academic freedom. I don't like the theory, but then again I did not grow up and experience the world as a black person so I try to withhold judgment a bit.
I think I'm more convinced the law is a good idea, as no real argument against the law as it is actually written is ever put forth. I can't get you to make any actual statement of what the objection is, or to address the actual law, or to address how it is logically consistent to hold this in violation of the first but not every other such law, or answer really any question lol. No one wants to explain how it's okay to teach white people are bad for X but to teach back people are bad for Y should still be banned. I have 1st amendment concerns on pretty much every education bill, but I fail to see why we would want to teach racism against any race in school, or which of the 8 very direct and specific points is bad policy, nor can anyone state an argument against any of them, apparently.

Peter_Spaeth 02-12-2023 02:20 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by G1911 (Post 2313742)
So it should be a school board meeting or a county law, and that's the objection?



I think I'm more convinced the law is a good idea, as no real argument against the law as it is actually written is ever put forth. I can't get you to make any actual statement of what the objection is, or to address the actual law, or to address how it is logically consistent to hold this in violation of the first but not every other such law, or answer really any question lol. No one wants to explain how it's okay to teach white people are bad for X but to teach back people are bad for Y should still be banned. I have 1st amendment concerns on pretty much every education bill, but I fail to see why we would want to teach racism against any race in school, or which of the 8 very direct and specific points is bad policy, nor can anyone state an argument against any of them, apparently.
So you disagree with the court's analysis of how the text of the law could be construed to prevent various teaching activities described by the plaintiffs? Or are you saying none of those are worthwhile so it's a good thing to ban them?

G1911 02-12-2023 02:24 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth (Post 2313743)
So you disagree with the court's analysis of how the text of the law could be construed to prevent various teaching activities described by the plaintiffs? Or are you saying none of those are worthwhile so it's a good thing to ban them?
I used specific examples in post 84; some of what the professors allege they are scared to teach for fear of repercussion is true, and I cited a specific example, and some is clearly not banned, which I also cited a specific example of. I am not sure how this very specific statement with examples could be construed as saying it wouldn't ban any of the material cited.

I am more than open to an argument that one of the 8 specific things it bans advocacy of (not discussion, 79-83, but advocacy) - but nobody can explain which or how they do make bad policy. Which one do you think is bad policy? If some of them are, it should be very easy and we don't have to keep dodging every question.

Peter_Spaeth 02-12-2023 02:29 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by G1911 (Post 2313745)
I used specific examples in post 84; some of what the professors allege they are scared to teach for fear of repercussion is true, and I cited a specific example, and some is clearly not banned, which I also cited a specific example of. I am not sure how this very specific statement with examples could be construed as saying it wouldn't ban any of the material cited.

I am more than open to an argument that one of the 8 specific things it bans advocacy of (not discussion, 79-83, but advocacy) - but nobody can explain which or how they do make bad policy. Which one do you think is bad policy? If some of them are, it should be very easy and we don't have to keep dodging every question.

This Court finds that by endorsing Critical Race Theory and assigning articles
supporting various forms of race consciousness (or the perils of ignoring race),
Professor Austin arguably promotes or compels belief in concepts three, four, six,
and eight. See §§ 1000.05(4)(a)3., 4., 6., and 8., Fla. Stat. (2022); Regulation
10.005(1)(a)3., 4., 6., and 8. Professor Austin’s declarations establish that (1) she
would teach several classes where Critical Race Theory and various forms of race
consciousness are arguably promoted but for the IFA; (2) this proposed speech is
arguably proscribed as promotion of or compulsion to believe in the third, fourth,
sixth, and eighth concepts under the IFA and Regulation 10.005; and (3) Regulation
10.005’s framework creates a credible threat of enforcement from UF and the
members of the Board of Governors. Accordingly, Professor Austin has
demonstrated that it would be reasonable for her to self-censor, conferring an injury
for purposes of standing as to the third, fourth, sixth, and eighth concepts.

If this analysis of the text is right, then I think it's bad policy. If even one concept bans what this Professor is doing, it's bad policy. This is the clearest one that jumped out at me. I'll study it again in more detail later and add to this.

G1911 02-12-2023 02:39 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth (Post 2313747)
This Court finds that by endorsing Critical Race Theory and assigning articles
supporting various forms of race consciousness (or the perils of ignoring race),
Professor Austin arguably promotes or compels belief in concepts three, four, six,
and eight. See §§ 1000.05(4)(a)3., 4., 6., and 8., Fla. Stat. (2022); Regulation
10.005(1)(a)3., 4., 6., and 8. Professor Austin’s declarations establish that (1) she
would teach several classes where Critical Race Theory and various forms of race
consciousness are arguably promoted but for the IFA; (2) this proposed speech is
arguably proscribed as promotion of or compulsion to believe in the third, fourth,
sixth, and eighth concepts under the IFA and Regulation 10.005; and (3) Regulation
10.005’s framework creates a credible threat of enforcement from UF and the
members of the Board of Governors. Accordingly, Professor Austin has
demonstrated that it would be reasonable for her to self-censor, conferring an injury
for purposes of standing as to the third, fourth, sixth, and eighth concepts.

If this analysis of the text is right, then I think it's bad policy. If even one concept bans what this Professor is doing, it's bad policy. This is the clearest one that jumped out at me.
So you object to 3, 4, 6 and 8 now, and children should be taught the reverses?

I fail to see how they ban most of what it is claimed Austin is teaching, except for the white privilege that may fall under 3. It is difficult to ascertain because no specifics are given of what they are actually teaching specifically. If the Professor is teaching that a persons moral character or status as privileged or oppresses is determined solely by their skin color, then it falls afoul of 3. What is the argument for teaching children that they should be classified by skin color and that their character and status is entirely dependent on their race? Would you similarly defend a teacher doing the reverse, criticizing 'black privilege' and using it to classify and group black students in a negative way based entirely and solely on their race?

Peter_Spaeth 02-12-2023 02:46 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by G1911 (Post 2313751)
So you object to 3, 4, 6 and 8 now, and children should be taught the reverses?

I fail to see how they ban most of what it is claimed Austin is teaching, except for the white privilege that may fall under 3. It is difficult to ascertain because no specifics are given of what they are actually teaching specifically. If the Professor is teaching that a persons moral character or status as privileged or oppresses is determined solely by their skin color, then it falls afoul of 3. What is the argument for teaching children that they should be classified by skin color and that their character and status is entirely dependent on their race? Would you similarly defend a teacher doing the reverse, criticizing 'black privilege' and using it to classify and group black students in a negative way based entirely and solely on their race?
My main objection, to be sure, is codifying what can and cannot be taught. As you pose the hypothetical, I would not argue these are good things to teach. but I would defend the right to do so. And again, to the extent concept 3 could be construed to ban teaching of critical race theory at least in part, I think it's bad policy even apart from First Amendment issues.

What say you to my N word hypothetical?

Casey2296 02-12-2023 02:49 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth (Post 2313738)
What would you think of a law that banned schools from teaching books that use the N word?
Like Hucklberry Finn?

Peter_Spaeth 02-12-2023 02:51 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Casey2296 (Post 2313754)
Like Hucklberry Finn?
And most of Faulkner. This is my concern, that cancel culture will eventually get there. All it would take was a benign sounding law, that forbids the teaching of any material that depicts members of one race as inferior, or in a demeaning way.

G1911 02-12-2023 02:56 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth (Post 2313753)
My main objection, to be sure, is codifying what can and cannot be taught. As you pose the hypothetical, I would not argue these are good things to teach. but I would defend the right to do so. And again, to the extent concept 3 could be construed to ban teaching of critical race theory at least in part, I think it's bad policy even apart from First Amendment issues.

What say you to my N word hypothetical?
So you don't object to anything in this bill specifically, you object to any education bill stipulating what is and is not taught, in general? And you object to every other law of this type, of which there are thousands across the US, just as much as this one? Or do you object to 3? You're being very good at not really having a specific position lol.

I don't think your hypothetical is analogous. Banning a word formerly in common usage and often without negative intent in its day bans many abolitionist texts and historical documents. It's not banning an extremist prejudice from being advocated, it's banning anything with a formerly common word no matter its view or advocacy. It's wildly different. I don't see the sense in it.

Peter_Spaeth 02-12-2023 03:04 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by G1911 (Post 2313757)
So you don't object to anything in this bill specifically, you object to any education bill stipulating what is and is not taught, in general? And you object to every other law of this type, of which there are thousands across the US, just as much as this one? Or do you object to 3? You're being very good at not really having a specific position lol.

I don't think your hypothetical is analogous. Banning a word formerly in common usage and often without negative intent in its day bans many abolitionist texts and historical documents. It's not banning an extremist prejudice from being advocated, it's banning anything with a formerly common word no matter its view or advocacy. It's wildly different. I don't see the sense in it.
As I said, I object to concept 3, if it is interpreted as it just was by a federal judge to ban critical race theory. The opinion also demonstrates the danger of a statute like this, because even if you and I think the judge goes too far in his textual analysis, the very fact that a federal judge did so shows the likelihood other people are going to misapply it. Then at best you have all sorts of shit the courts eventually will have to sort out. I am not all that familiar with other education laws honestly but glad to consider any you want to discuss.

G1911 02-12-2023 03:06 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth (Post 2313762)
As I said, I object to concept 3, if it is interpreted as it just was by a federal judge to ban critical race theory.
" 57 3. An individual’s moral character or status as either
58 privileged or oppressed is necessarily determined by his or her
59 race, color, sex, or national origin."

Alright, so back to a couple posts ago on 3:

"What is the argument for teaching children that they should be classified by skin color and that their character and status is entirely dependent on their race? Would you similarly defend a teacher doing the reverse, criticizing 'black privilege' and using it to classify and group black students in a negative way based entirely and solely on their race?"

Peter_Spaeth 02-12-2023 03:14 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by G1911 (Post 2313765)
" 57 3. An individual’s moral character or status as either
58 privileged or oppressed is necessarily determined by his or her
59 race, color, sex, or national origin."

Alright, so back to a couple posts ago on 3:

"What is the argument for teaching children that they should be classified by skin color and that their character and status is entirely dependent on their race? Would you similarly defend a teacher doing the reverse, criticizing 'black privilege' and using it to classify and group black students in a negative way based entirely and solely on their race?"
You're doing the slippery slope argument or a variant. Just because I am opposed to one potential pernicious application of concept 3 and therefore think it's a bad idea does not mean I think every possible application of concept 3 is bad inherently or maybe stated better that everything that concept 3 would ban is a good idea.

BobbyStrawberry 02-12-2023 03:17 PM
1 Attachment(s)
Every thread needs a card (and it's a 1 of 10!):

G1911 02-12-2023 03:19 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth (Post 2313770)
You're doing the slippery slope argument or a variant. Just because I am opposed to one potential pernicious application of concept 3 and therefore think it's a bad idea does not mean I think every possible application of concept 3 is bad inherently (leaving aside First Amendment).
It's not a slippery slope, the law is very explicit with the "any race" standard. It is not a slope, this is the entire point of the legislation, that the races are to be treated the same.

So it is bad, if a teacher teaches this about blacks, and acceptable but maybe not good if they teach it about whites? It is only the one context where it is bad? That's obviously the actual outrage objection to the law and always has been, that there isn't a carve out where it is okay to criticize the race that we want to attack in schools, but to protect the others from the same. I have a difficult time finding it okay to teach racism against a particular race, but that's my hot take.

Peter_Spaeth 02-12-2023 03:22 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by G1911 (Post 2313775)
It's not a slippery slope, the law is very explicit with the "any race" standard. It is not a slope, this is the entire point of the legislation, that the races are to be treated the same.

So it is bad, if a teacher teaches this about blacks, and acceptable but maybe not good if they teach it about whites? It is only the one context where it is bad? That's obviously the actual outrage objection to the law and always has been, that there isn't a carve out where it is okay to criticize the race that we want to attack in schools, but to protect the others from the same. I have a difficult time finding it okay to teach racism against a particular race, but that's my hot take.
Well that's a little glib in the name of neutrality, whites as a race obviously have not faced prejudice in this country to the extent blacks have, so you wouldn't expect any scholarship in the other direction.

1952boyntoncollector 02-12-2023 03:29 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth (Post 2313777)
Well that's a little glib in the name of neutrality, whites as a race obviously have not faced prejudice in this country to the extent blacks have, so you wouldn't expect any scholarship in the other direction.
talking in generalities always strange, asians and jews have had enormous racisim as well as many other groups. Not sure why it matters to keep score as to has the most, if you face it its personal to you..you dont care about any group of people who face it 'more' overall..

G1911 02-12-2023 03:29 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth (Post 2313777)
Well that's a little glib in the name of neutrality, whites as a race obviously have not faced prejudice in this country to the extent blacks have, so you wouldn't expect any scholarship in the other direction.
And yet, here we are, with a national outrage that teachers in a state have been banned from advocating racism against any race in the classroom, because we want to teach racism against one and only one race.

If this bill's any race provision was simply reworded to exclude white races from the same protection as every other race, this bill would be a darling of the left. Which is the entire point of it, and the rage bait troll.

Peter_Spaeth 02-12-2023 03:37 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by G1911 (Post 2313783)
And yet, here we are, with a national outrage that teachers in a state have been banned from advocating racism against any race in the classroom, because we want to teach racism against one and only one race.

If this bill's any race provision was simply reworded to exclude white races from the same protection as every other race, this bill would be a darling of the left. Which is the entire point of it, and the rage bait troll.
Well we can agree to disagree then because I think the intent is pretty clear despite the neutral wording. Clearly a political ploy and I do think some of the concerns are well founded. Very enjoyable and informative discussion from my perspective, thank you.

G1911 02-12-2023 03:51 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth (Post 2313790)
Well we can agree to disagree then because I think the intent is pretty clear despite the neutral wording. Clearly a political ploy and I do think some of the concerns are well founded. Very enjoyable and informative discussion from my perspective, thank you.
Thank you Peter. It’s always fun, even if we never agree lol

Peter_Spaeth 02-12-2023 03:53 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by G1911 (Post 2313799)
Thank you Peter. It’s always fun, even if we never agree lol
Well, I think we did agree that the judge probably overstated the case on the reach of the text.

carlsonjok 02-12-2023 04:30 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by G1911 (Post 2313775)
It's not a slippery slope, the law is very explicit with the "any race" standard. It is not a slope, this is the entire point of the legislation, that the races are to be treated the same.
I will probably regret this, but there is an unstated assumption here that needs to be explored. That assumption is that we need to teach that all races are treated the same because they are treated the same in reality. While our system isn't nearly as unequitable as it was in the Jim Crow days, it is folly to think it is a perfect embodiment of the Lockean ideal that all men are created equal. As an example, much of the objection to voter ID laws is not any commitment to engaging in voter fraud, but rather the simple fact that racial minorities are significantly less likely to hold, or be able to acquire, the required type of ID. Any such law that requires voters to hold a specific type of identification without making it easier to acquire that type of ID is, if not de jure certainly de facto, discriminatory.

To bring this around to point, as Peter points out, the Florida law is written vaguely enough that there is no common understanding of what is allowed and what is not. And, when faced with such ambiguity, people will err on the side of caution because no one wants the grief of having their name in the papers as a "librul indoctrinator" because some gunny-ass parent with too much time on their hands got a burr under their saddle. So, what is an educator to do? Can they teach in current events that there are laws that disproportionately affect minorities? Can they teach about the discriminatory intent of poll taxes and Jim Crow Laws? Can they teach that many of our Founding Fathers owned slaves? Can they teach about the racism faced by Jackie Robinson and Roberto Clemente? No one knows. And when no one knows, anyone who decides to take a stand between an ambitious governor and riled up parents will stand alone.

G1911 02-12-2023 04:41 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by carlsonjok (Post 2313814)
I will probably regret this, but there is an unstated assumption here that needs to be explored. That assumption is that we need to teach that all races are treated the same because they are treated the same in reality. While our system isn't nearly as unequitable as it was in the Jim Crow days, it is folly to think it is a perfect embodiment of the Lockean ideal that all men are created equal. As an example, much of the objection to voter ID laws is not any commitment to engaging in voter fraud, but rather the simple fact that racial minorities are significantly less likely to hold, or be able to acquire, the required type of ID. Any such law that requires voters to hold a specific type of identification without making it easier to acquire that type of ID is, if not de jure certainly de facto, discriminatory.

To bring this around to point, as Peter points out, the Florida law is written vaguely enough that there is no common understanding of what is allowed and what is not. And, when faced with such ambiguity, people will err on the side of caution because no one wants the grief of having their name in the papers as a "librul indoctrinator" because some gunny-ass parent with too much time on their hands got a burr under their saddle. So, what is an educator to do? Can they teach in current events that there are laws that disproportionately affect minorities? Can they teach about the discriminatory intent of poll taxes and Jim Crow Laws? Can they teach that many of our Founding Fathers owned slaves? Can they teach about the racism faced by Jackie Robinson and Roberto Clemente? No one knows. And when no one knows, anyone who decides to take a stand between an ambitious governor and riled up parents will stand alone.
I would encourage you to read the law, as your examples are directly contradictory to the text.

It very, very explicitly requires schools to teach African American achievement and the racism experiences. It specifically requires them to teach slavery (167-173). It does not ban teaching about discriminatory poll taxes, Jim Crow laws, the ownership of slaves (which it very literally directly requires to be taught), or the racism faced by Jackie Robinson. At all. It does not ban books about Clemente and Jackie Robinson. It does not allow a "gunny-ass parent", whatever that means, to bring a case against a "librul indoctrinator" because they don't like something. It does not ban discussion of racism or anything under the sun, it only bans advocacy of racism against any race. Again, 51-83 are a good TL;DR if 496 is too many.

Which section of the law banning specific practices is too vague? Which part do you disagree with and argue against?

As I've said, I have concerns about this, but I am unable to see these arguments anywhere in the bill, they seem to only exist in political op-ed's that have clearly not read the text.

carlsonjok 02-12-2023 05:19 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by G1911 (Post 2313819)
I would encourage you to read the law, as your examples are directly contradictory to the text.
I will, but it won't be tonight. I have a job interview in the morning and I need to get myself prepared and in the right frame of mind.

G1911 02-12-2023 05:29 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by carlsonjok (Post 2313823)
I will, but it won't be tonight. I have a job interview in the morning and I need to get myself prepared and in the right frame of mind.
Good luck! Hope you get it

1952boyntoncollector 02-12-2023 07:01 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth (Post 2313790)
Well we can agree to disagree then because I think the intent is pretty clear despite the neutral wording. Clearly a political ploy and I do think some of the concerns are well founded. Very enjoyable and informative discussion from my perspective, thank you.
right and political ploy on a bunch of the criticism. , heck the title of this thread is misleading....you would think that any mention of roberto clemente is banned in florida ..

1952boyntoncollector 02-12-2023 07:07 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by carlsonjok (Post 2313814)
I will probably regret this, but there is an unstated assumption here that needs to be explored. That assumption is that we need to teach that all races are treated the same because they are treated the same in reality. While our system isn't nearly as unequitable as it was in the Jim Crow days, it is folly to think it is a perfect embodiment of the Lockean ideal that all men are created equal. As an example, much of the objection to voter ID laws is not any commitment to engaging in voter fraud, but rather the simple fact that racial minorities are significantly less likely to hold, or be able to acquire, the required type of ID. Any such law that requires voters to hold a specific type of identification without making it easier to acquire that type of ID is, if not de jure certainly de facto, discriminatory.

To bring this around to point, as Peter points out, the Florida law is written vaguely enough that there is no common understanding of what is allowed and what is not. And, when faced with such ambiguity, people will err on the side of caution because no one wants the grief of having their name in the papers as a "librul indoctrinator" because some gunny-ass parent with too much time on their hands got a burr under their saddle. So, what is an educator to do? Can they teach in current events that there are laws that disproportionately affect minorities? Can they teach about the discriminatory intent of poll taxes and Jim Crow Laws? Can they teach that many of our Founding Fathers owned slaves? Can they teach about the racism faced by Jackie Robinson and Roberto Clemente? No one knows. And when no one knows, anyone who decides to take a stand between an ambitious governor and riled up parents will stand alone.

The ID argument is silly not to be able to get an ID, correct me if i am wrong but i thought that was needed to get a free covid shot and usually anyone with government assistance needs some type of an ID....

there is racism against asians getting into colleges right now, and there are racist minorities now as well, i do think the country is less racist in terms of opportunties then it was 30 years ago, but you would think in the media it isnt......Many liberals also voted for Desantis..... Desantis was blamed for all sorts of things during the pandemic and he has looked pretty good looking back...so anytime you see new criticism on him you take it with a grain of salt...heck all for the main newspapers endorsed Crist...yet it was a super run away election..in a state that desantis only won 4 years about by a very slim margin.. ..also a lot of minorities such as latin groups seemed to vote for desantis even though the media runs mostly negative presss on him.

irv 02-12-2023 07:53 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by carlsonjok (Post 2313814)
I will probably regret this, but there is an unstated assumption here that needs to be explored. That assumption is that we need to teach that all races are treated the same because they are treated the same in reality. While our system isn't nearly as unequitable as it was in the Jim Crow days, it is folly to think it is a perfect embodiment of the Lockean ideal that all men are created equal. As an example, much of the objection to voter ID laws is not any commitment to engaging in voter fraud, but rather the simple fact that racial minorities are significantly less likely to hold, or be able to acquire, the required type of ID. Any such law that requires voters to hold a specific type of identification without making it easier to acquire that type of ID is, if not de jure certainly de facto, discriminatory.

To bring this around to point, as Peter points out, the Florida law is written vaguely enough that there is no common understanding of what is allowed and what is not. And, when faced with such ambiguity, people will err on the side of caution because no one wants the grief of having their name in the papers as a "librul indoctrinator" because some gunny-ass parent with too much time on their hands got a burr under their saddle. So, what is an educator to do? Can they teach in current events that there are laws that disproportionately affect minorities? Can they teach about the discriminatory intent of poll taxes and Jim Crow Laws? Can they teach that many of our Founding Fathers owned slaves? Can they teach about the racism faced by Jackie Robinson and Roberto Clemente? No one knows. And when no one knows, anyone who decides to take a stand between an ambitious governor and riled up parents will stand alone.
Were most African Americans not pissed at the notion, and especially at Kamala Harris, that they were being labelled as being too dumb to acquire ID's?
IIRC, they said that, in itself, is racism and more profiling.
https://youtu.be/DCytgANu010

packs 02-13-2023 08:29 AM
Why do you assume the criticism is about whether or not you're intelligent enough to get an ID? That's not why people don't like voter ID requirements. Something like a driver's license costs money to acquire. A passport costs money to acquire. As you raise the bar for the kind of ID needed, you're raising the cost as well. There are people who can't pay for an ID. In the state of NY renewing your license costs $64.50.

It is true that most states offer some form of free identification, but not all forms of ID are accepted for all things, even when you think they would be. I can't take a domestic flight with my current NY state issued license. I have to show my passport to get on domestic flights because my current state issued ID is not considered secure enough to fly with.

My voter registration card, which I received upon registration when I turned 18, does not have a photo of myself on it or any other personally identifying information. It's my name and my address. This should be the only documentation needed to vote. It did not come at a cost and registering for it was the only thing I was required to do in order to vote. Having a driver's license doesn't entitle you to vote.

Cliff Bowman 02-13-2023 09:14 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by packs (Post 2313977)
Why do you assume the criticism is about whether or not you're intelligent enough to get an ID? That's not why people don't like voter ID requirements. Something like a driver's license costs money to acquire. A passport costs money to acquire. As you raise the bar for the kind of ID needed, you're raising the cost as well. There are people who can't pay for an ID. In the state of NY renewing your license costs $64.50.
Republicans have tried several times to pass legislation for voters to have a FREE, I’ll repeat, FREE, voter card that will be issued by the government to all potential LEGAL voters. Democrats of course block it every time.

packs 02-13-2023 09:15 AM
My voter registration card was free. Why do I need anything else to vote?

ALR-bishop 02-13-2023 09:34 AM
So we can see YOUR identity ? 😊

steve B 02-13-2023 09:36 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bnorth (Post 2313412)
You won't have to worry about either left or right soon. Our alien overlords are going to make themselves known in the near future. Then we will have real problems. I have this on good authority. I seen it on both Facebook and Twitter.:eek:
https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=249549163546747

irv 02-13-2023 10:21 AM
1 Attachment(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cliff Bowman (Post 2313991)
Republicans have tried several times to pass legislation for voters to have a FREE, I’ll repeat, FREE, voter card that will be issued by the government to all potential LEGAL voters. Democrats of course block it every time.
But yet the Dems and their brainwashed legion of followers were screaming at the tops of their lungs when it came to requiring people having vaccine passports and were perfectly fine with the mandates as well.

It amazes me that a group can be brainwashed and lied to so bad that they don't even recognize when they are being lied to and brainwashed even more.

packs 02-13-2023 10:42 AM
What are the similarities between the two issues? Voting is a right. Eating dinner at a business is not.

G1911 02-13-2023 10:46 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cliff Bowman (Post 2313991)
Republicans have tried several times to pass legislation for voters to have a FREE, I’ll repeat, FREE, voter card that will be issued by the government to all potential LEGAL voters. Democrats of course block it every time.
I’ve never understood this. If one believes that Russia is stealing US elections - wouldn’t one want FREE voter ID requirements to ensure only citizens are voting? It’s strange that the answer is invariably “no”.

packs 02-13-2023 10:52 AM
I don't think anyone believes Russia is voting in US elections. When they refer to election tampering it's in reference to messaging across various social media platforms leading up to an election.

G1911 02-13-2023 11:11 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by packs (Post 2314024)
What are the similarities between the two issues? Voting is a right. Eating dinner at a business is not.
I have to give multiple forms of ID to exercise other constitutional rights. Shouldn’t one need to show they are indeed a citizen to have said rights as a citizen?

G1911 02-13-2023 11:11 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ALR-bishop (Post 2314001)
So we can see YOUR identity ? 😊
This rule only applies to some of us ;)

packs 02-13-2023 12:11 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by G1911 (Post 2314034)
I have to give multiple forms of ID to exercise other constitutional rights. Shouldn’t one need to show they are indeed a citizen to have said rights as a citizen?
I don't think there is a law that says US citizens are required to carry proof of citizenship. There are 15 states where no form of ID is required to vote and another 15 states that accept paper forms of identification that include utility bills, bank statements or your voter registration card.

G1911 02-13-2023 01:56 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by packs (Post 2314065)
I don't think there is a law that says US citizens are required to carry proof of citizenship. There are 15 states where no form of ID is required to vote and another 15 states that accept paper forms of identification that include utility bills, bank statements or your voter registration card.
Nobody said or intimated that one needs to carry papers everywhere they go? And nobody has made any claim contrary to your second statement?

bnorth 02-13-2023 02:31 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by steve B (Post 2314002)
That is hilarious and I have met more than one person like Steven in real life and many on forums.

carlsonjok 02-13-2023 05:32 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by G1911 (Post 2313819)
I would encourage you to read the law, as your examples are directly contradictory to the text.
I have read it now and I cannot decide if it is a dog’s breakfast or a monument to sophistry. Having caught up on the thread, I’m already tiring of the topic, but I do owe you an answer. So here it is.

Quote:
It very, very explicitly requires schools to teach African American achievement and the racism experiences. It specifically requires them to teach slavery (167-173). It does not ban teaching about discriminatory poll taxes, Jim Crow laws, the ownership of slaves (which it very literally directly requires to be taught), or the racism faced by Jackie Robinson. At all. It does not ban books about Clemente and Jackie Robinson.
Actually, it says nothing at all about any of those things. And therein lies the issue, as I see it. It makes general mention of things that should be taught, but all of that is obviated by lines 71-73, 297-299, and 307-310. There is no defense against claims of psychological distress. The claim becomes a cudgel to be wielded by any parent or activist with an axe to grind to further dilute the topic. It is the heckler’s veto. You just got to stand up at the school board meeting and claim that Little Johnny was upset by what was he heard in history class and we’ll have a three ring circus on our hands.

Any law that purports to solve the issue needs to be explicit enough to not allow someone’s ignorance (or political agenda) to take advantage of the lack of specificity. And it is that lack of specificity that is causing local schools to over-react and pull things off the shelves that rational people can agree should be there. Because, those local school teachers and administrators have a whole host of parents that they are on a first name basis with that they know are spoiling for a fight, rationality be damned. And those teachers and administrators know that no one from the state political apparatus will back them up. They are on their own.

Quote:
It does not allow a "gunny-ass parent", whatever that means, to bring a case against a "librul indoctrinator" because they don't like something.

It is completely mute on that point. For giggles, Google “school board meeting CRT” and read a few articles. There are plenty of them. This law does nothing to resolve that. In fact, I would bet it will only make things worse for the reason I state above.

Quote:
Again, 51-83 are a good TL;DR if 496 is too many.Which section of the law banning specific practices is too vague? Which part do you disagree with and argue against?
My point is that it isn’t banning specific topics or practices. It is banning general topics and practices and leaving it to others to figure out the specific details. Here, though is something that does bother me. Read lines 332-337. Do you see any definition of “persons” that we are not allowed to reflect unfairly upon? I don’t. So where do we go from there? Was Bull Connor a racist, or was he just a misunderstood public servant trying to keep the peace for all citizens regardless of race (Kumbaya, my Lord, Kumbaya!) It sounds like a ridiculous argument, but are you so sure there isn’t someone out there willing to make that argument at the next school board meeting?

My prediction is that this law isn't going to solve the problem is purports to solve. We are going to spend the next two years hearing about School Boards Gone Wild over what is being taught in schools. Each and every one of those stories will be a nice in-kind donation to Ron DeSantis' nascent Presidential campaign.

carlsonjok 02-13-2023 05:37 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by irv (Post 2313858)
Were most African Americans not pissed at the notion, and especially at Kamala Harris, that they were being labelled as being too dumb to acquire ID's?
IIRC, they said that, in itself, is racism and more profiling.
https://youtu.be/DCytgANu010
I'll give you the benefit of the doubt, but given that you posted a link to the Daily Wire, I am guessing this will not go anywhere.

The statistics I saw indicate that 8% of white Americans lack a government issued ID that can be used to vote. 25% of African-Americans lack that type of ID. Lack of such an ID is closely linked with poverty.

G1911 02-13-2023 07:36 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by carlsonjok (Post 2314182)
I have read it now and I cannot decide if it is a dog’s breakfast or a monument to sophistry. Having caught up on the thread, I’m already tiring of the topic, but I do owe you an answer. So here it is.


Actually, it says nothing at all about any of those things. And therein lies the issue, as I see it. It makes general mention of things that should be taught, but all of that is obviated by lines 71-73, 297-299, and 307-310. There is no defense against claims of psychological distress. The claim becomes a cudgel to be wielded by any parent or activist with an axe to grind to further dilute the topic. It is the heckler’s veto. You just got to stand up at the school board meeting and claim that Little Johnny was upset by what was he heard in history class and we’ll have a three ring circus on our hands.
It very literally and directly states that the path to slavery, the slavery experience, and the achievement of African-Americans are required to be taught, already cited. Nowhere does it ban or imply could be banned any of the things you claimed before reading the bill. You want a section specifically stating Jackie Robinson (and every other baseball player, again, the bill is "any race" except the section specifically stating black achievement and several other topics promoting a positive narrative) can be taught? This bill would be over a million pages if it had to very specifically state everything it does not affect. This is just fundamentally not how law works. No law does this lol

Quote:
Originally Posted by carlsonjok (Post 2314182)
Any law that purports to solve the issue needs to be explicit enough to not allow someone’s ignorance (or political agenda) to take advantage of the lack of specificity. And it is that lack of specificity that is causing local schools to over-react and pull things off the shelves that rational people can agree should be there. Because, those local school teachers and administrators have a whole host of parents that they are on a first name basis with that they know are spoiling for a fight, rationality be damned. And those teachers and administrators know that no one from the state political apparatus will back them up. They are on their own.
We have already covered and I have provided the evidence that the claims of books bans made are fake news, and that these obscure texts were not banned or even on the shelf in the first place. I am still awaiting any evidence of said ban and removal. The county themselves stated the Pen report is not correct: "After requesting more information about the report from the district, a DCPS spokeswoman told News4JAX Tuesday afternoon there are nearly 200 books being reviewed by the district but none of them were challenged by members of the community and the books were never on the library shelves." This whole subject appears to be a lie. Happy to be corrected by evidence.


Quote:
Originally Posted by carlsonjok (Post 2314182)
It is completely mute on that point. For giggles, Google “school board meeting CRT” and read a few articles. There are plenty of them. This law does nothing to resolve that. In fact, I would bet it will only make things worse for the reason I state above.
Well of course, that's how law works. If it isn't in the law, it's not impacted by it. Of course it's not going to list a thousand things it doesn't affect. There's nothing in here about empowering parents to go after teachers for saying something they don't like. That was just completely false. Of course it doesn't overturn the first amendment and remove a parents right ("gunny ass", whatever that means, or otherwise) from speaking, or eliminate parents from attending school board meetings. Why would anyone expect it too? Parents attending school board meetings and being permitted to speak has nothing to do with this bill at all.


Quote:
Originally Posted by carlsonjok (Post 2314182)
My point is that it isn’t banning specific topics or practices. It is banning general topics and practices and leaving it to others to figure out the specific details. Here, though is something that does bother me. Read lines 332-337. Do you see any definition of “persons” that we are not allowed to reflect unfairly upon? I don’t. So where do we go from there? Was Bull Connor a racist, or was he just a misunderstood public servant trying to keep the peace for all citizens regardless of race (Kumbaya, my Lord, Kumbaya!) It sounds like a ridiculous argument, but are you so sure there isn’t someone out there willing to make that argument at the next school board meeting?
This is again, plainly and unequivocally false. It bans advocacy of certain racist views, which are very specifically stated. It very, very specifically states that the matter may still be discussed, it just must be addressed objectively (79-83). There are plenty of reasonable arguments against this bill, but they are weakened when it's opponents just make things up that are directly contradicted by the actual text instead.

Here's your chosen section:
(d) Require, when appropriate to the comprehension of
330 students, that materials for social science, history, or civics
331 classes contain the Declaration of Independence and the
332 Constitution of the United States. A reviewer may not recommend
333 any instructional materials that contain any matter reflecting
334 unfairly upon persons because of their race, color, creed,
335 national origin, ancestry, gender, religion, disability,
336 socioeconomic status, or occupation or otherwise contradict the
337 principles enumerated under s. 1003.42(3).

First, what definition do you need for "person"? It's incredibly obvious what a person means, no? That's an objection?

Where does it say anyone cannot observe that Bull Connor was a racist, or teach that? It says they cannot recommend instructional material that reflect unfairly on any person specifically because of their race. "Bull Connor was a racist and did X, Y, Z" is just fine. "Bull Connor was a terrible person and a racist because he was white" would be banned. This section does not say what you are claiming it does, not even close.

I get some people are really upset by this law, but dealing with what it actually says makes for a much better argument than making blatantly false claims about the text.

Quote:
Originally Posted by carlsonjok (Post 2314182)
My prediction is that this law isn't going to solve the problem is purports to solve. We are going to spend the next two years hearing about School Boards Gone Wild over what is being taught in schools. Each and every one of those stories will be a nice in-kind donation to Ron DeSantis' nascent Presidential campaign.
Yes, it's rage bait for both sides. The left media gets to completely lie about the text to feed it's rage machine and stir up their base, and DeSantis gets to use it and the predictable reaction that doesn't deal with anything it actually says to stir up the rage for his. Everybody get's their dose of anger and publicity and little is actually accomplished.

The left would be much better served by not playing into Desantis' hand and making wildly false claims about a bill that pushes an anti-racism angle and bans open advocacy of racism in the classroom to try and kill it. The whole point on their side is that this bill is a very liberal approach - just without a clause exempting teaching racism towards whites while still banning it against every other race. This is why I am having a hard time seeing anything wrong in the actual bill (not leftist op-ed's), it's a liberal take of a liberal value to not allow teaching racism and prejudice (again, it very, very directly bans advocacy, and advocacy only) to children.

Carter08 02-14-2023 06:21 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth (Post 2313605)
I've read it. It bans it in so many words and that is obviously how it is understood including by the court that struck it down as unconstitutional as applied to universities.
Exactly.

1952boyntoncollector 02-14-2023 07:20 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by G1911 (Post 2314236)
It very literally and directly states that the path to slavery, the slavery experience, and the achievement of African-Americans are required to be taught, already cited. Nowhere does it ban or imply could be banned any of the things you claimed before reading the bill. You want a section specifically stating Jackie Robinson (and every other baseball player, again, the bill is "any race" except the section specifically stating black achievement and several other topics promoting a positive narrative) can be taught? This bill would be over a million pages if it had to very specifically state everything it does not affect. This is just fundamentally not how law works. No law does this lol



We have already covered and I have provided the evidence that the claims of books bans made are fake news, and that these obscure texts were not banned or even on the shelf in the first place. I am still awaiting any evidence of said ban and removal. The county themselves stated the Pen report is not correct: "After requesting more information about the report from the district, a DCPS spokeswoman told News4JAX Tuesday afternoon there are nearly 200 books being reviewed by the district but none of them were challenged by members of the community and the books were never on the library shelves." This whole subject appears to be a lie. Happy to be corrected by evidence.




Well of course, that's how law works. If it isn't in the law, it's not impacted by it. Of course it's not going to list a thousand things it doesn't affect. There's nothing in here about empowering parents to go after teachers for saying something they don't like. That was just completely false. Of course it doesn't overturn the first amendment and remove a parents right ("gunny ass", whatever that means, or otherwise) from speaking, or eliminate parents from attending school board meetings. Why would anyone expect it too? Parents attending school board meetings and being permitted to speak has nothing to do with this bill at all.




This is again, plainly and unequivocally false. It bans advocacy of certain racist views, which are very specifically stated. It very, very specifically states that the matter may still be discussed, it just must be addressed objectively (79-83). There are plenty of reasonable arguments against this bill, but they are weakened when it's opponents just make things up that are directly contradicted by the actual text instead.

Here's your chosen section:
(d) Require, when appropriate to the comprehension of
330 students, that materials for social science, history, or civics
331 classes contain the Declaration of Independence and the
332 Constitution of the United States. A reviewer may not recommend
333 any instructional materials that contain any matter reflecting
334 unfairly upon persons because of their race, color, creed,
335 national origin, ancestry, gender, religion, disability,
336 socioeconomic status, or occupation or otherwise contradict the
337 principles enumerated under s. 1003.42(3).

First, what definition do you need for "person"? It's incredibly obvious what a person means, no? That's an objection?

Where does it say anyone cannot observe that Bull Connor was a racist, or teach that? It says they cannot recommend instructional material that reflect unfairly on any person specifically because of their race. "Bull Connor was a racist and did X, Y, Z" is just fine. "Bull Connor was a terrible person and a racist because he was white" would be banned. This section does not say what you are claiming it does, not even close.

I get some people are really upset by this law, but dealing with what it actually says makes for a much better argument than making blatantly false claims about the text.



Yes, it's rage bait for both sides. The left media gets to completely lie about the text to feed it's rage machine and stir up their base, and DeSantis gets to use it and the predictable reaction that doesn't deal with anything it actually says to stir up the rage for his. Everybody get's their dose of anger and publicity and little is actually accomplished.

The left would be much better served by not playing into Desantis' hand and making wildly false claims about a bill that pushes an anti-racism angle and bans open advocacy of racism in the classroom to try and kill it. The whole point on their side is that this bill is a very liberal approach - just without a clause exempting teaching racism towards whites while still banning it against every other race. This is why I am having a hard time seeing anything wrong in the actual bill (not leftist op-ed's), it's a liberal take of a liberal value to not allow teaching racism and prejudice (again, it very, very directly bans advocacy, and advocacy only) to children.
the sad part is 99% of the people with far more influence than you gave 99% less thought and detail in the actual law than you did......the voters probably even less thought. yet one voter one vote......and its a shame they get their information on impacts of laws from people that dont actually read them.

i am all for opposing views but opposing views when there is really no thought and just reliance on media or op ed who dont actually read the laws makes it hard to view an opposing view..

carlsonjok 02-14-2023 07:33 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by G1911 (Post 2314236)
It very literally and directly states that the path to slavery, the slavery experience, and the achievement of African-Americans are required to be taught, already cited. Nowhere does it ban or imply could be banned any of the things you claimed before reading the bill. You want a section specifically stating Jackie Robinson (and every other baseball player, again, the bill is "any race" except the section specifically stating black achievement and several other topics promoting a positive narrative) can be taught? This bill would be over a million pages if it had to very specifically state everything it does not affect. This is just fundamentally not how law works. No law does this lol
Strawman. Those are bumper stickers, not guidelines that can be used by teachers and administrators to make good faith decisions about what to teach. Curriculum guidance needs to be detailed enough that a random sample of educators would come to essentially the same decisions. This law doesn't do that. Quite the opposite, as we are seeing play out in real time. How should a bill affecting curriculum should be constructed. I would say that it isn't a list of what is disallowed, but rather an outline of what is allowed. For the topic of racial discrimination what are the subtopics that can be covered and what evidence introduced to illuminate those topics? Can current events be covered? Etc.

Quote:
We have already covered and I have provided the evidence that the claims of books bans made are fake news, and that these obscure texts were not banned or even on the shelf in the first place. I am still awaiting any evidence of said ban and removal. The county themselves stated the Pen report is not correct: "After requesting more information about the report from the district, a DCPS spokeswoman told News4JAX Tuesday afternoon there are nearly 200 books being reviewed by the district but none of them were challenged by members of the community and the books were never on the library shelves." This whole subject appears to be a lie. Happy to be corrected by evidence.
I am not sure who you are responding to here, because it isn't me. I never said books were banned. I said that, faced with ambiguity, educators are erring heavily on the side of caution and pulling anything that could even result in some fired up parent wasting their morning complaining about CRT infiltrating the schools because a book points out Dixie Walker's role in the integration of the Brooklyn Dodgers.

Quote:
Well of course, that's how law works. If it isn't in the law, it's not impacted by it. Of course it's not going to list a thousand things it doesn't affect. There's nothing in here about empowering parents to go after teachers for saying something they don't like. That was just completely false. Of course it doesn't overturn the first amendment and remove a parents right ("gunny ass", whatever that means, or otherwise) from speaking, or eliminate parents from attending school board meetings. Why would anyone expect it too? Parents attending school board meetings and being permitted to speak has nothing to do with this bill at all.
Textually, no. And I am certainly not advocating for an abridgement of the people's First Amendment rights, if that is what you are setting me up for here. What I am concerned about is that this bill makes all curriculum subject to the heckler's veto. At some point, you have to stop privileging ignorance. And a properly constructed and detailed curriculum is a good first step.


Quote:
This is again, plainly and unequivocally false. It bans advocacy of certain racist views, which are very specifically stated. It very, very specifically states that the matter may still be discussed, it just must be addressed objectively (79-83). There are plenty of reasonable arguments against this bill, but they are weakened when it's opponents just make things up that are directly contradicted by the actual text instead.
One man's recitation of facts is another man's advocacy. Take my voter ID example.It is a demonstrable fact that Voter ID laws disenfranchise minority voters because those voters disproportionately do not have the required ID. That is just a statement of fact. And look at how that spun off into it's own argument. Now imagine how that plays out when it involves real educators and real parents, not just a bunch of baseball card collectors wasting time on a discussion board.

Quote:
First, what definition do you need for "person"? It's incredibly obvious what a person means, no? That's an objection?
I did myself no service by how I stated that earlier. My apologies. My preference is that this language, along with the language about psychological distress, not appear in the bill whatsoever, because it privileges unprovable claims over demonstrable facts and opens it up for the introduction of absurdities.

Quote:
Where does it say anyone cannot observe that Bull Connor was a racist, or teach that? It says they cannot recommend instructional material that reflect unfairly on any person specifically because of their race. "Bull Connor was a racist and did X, Y, Z" is just fine. "Bull Connor was a terrible person and a racist because he was white" would be banned. This section does not say what you are claiming it does, not even close.
This is exactly the type of absurdity I am talking about. Bull Connor was a racist. Racism is prejudice against a person because of their race. Bull Connor was white. Bull Connor was a white supremacist. Are educational outcomes actually improved by dancing around the obvious?

Quote:
I get some people are really upset by this law, but dealing with what it actually says makes for a much better argument than making blatantly false claims about the text.
And, to restate myself, the advocates should be less concerned about what it says and more concerned about how what it doesn't say can be used to strategically create chaos. Which is already happening.

Quote:
The left would be much better served by not playing into Desantis' hand
And, in my opinion, the right would be much better served when they realize that stunts like this bill aren't meant to solve a problem, but rather keep Ron DeSantis' name in the news and burnish his credentials as a culture warrior in advance of the 2024 GOP Presidential primary.

Quote:
The whole point on their side is that this bill is a very liberal approach - just without a clause exempting teaching racism towards whites while still banning it against every other race. This is why I am having a hard time seeing anything wrong in the actual bill (not leftist op-ed's), it's a liberal take of a liberal value to not allow teaching racism and prejudice (again, it very, very directly bans advocacy, and advocacy only) to children.
If teaching about racism was solely about teaching that it is wrong to be prejudiced against someone because of their race, it would be a 30 second conversation. The history of racism in the US, though, is about racism coupled with control of the levers of power that enables someone to act on that prejudice under the color of law. And that is not a solved problem. To be sure, it is certainly better than it was in the 1860s and also the 1960s. But, it isn't solved. We still have to create a more perfect union. But, is it any less advocacy to teach the comfortable fiction that we have truly achieved a color-blind society?

In sum, I think we are each talking about a different topic. While you are talking about what is within the four walls of the bill, I am talking about what happens out in the wild as a result of the bill. You are asking "Does this sound reasonable?" and I am asking "how can someone abuse this bill in service to some other agenda?" I am not sure how we reconcile that.

Carter08 02-14-2023 08:00 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by carlsonjok (Post 2314333)
Strawman. Those are bumper stickers, not guidelines that can be used by teachers and administrators to make good faith decisions about what to teach. Curriculum guidance needs to be detailed enough that a random sample of educators would come to essentially the same decisions. This law doesn't do that. Quite the opposite, as we are seeing play out in real time. How should a bill affecting curriculum should be constructed. I would say that it isn't a list of what is disallowed, but rather an outline of what is allowed. For the topic of racial discrimination what are the subtopics that can be covered and what evidence introduced to illuminate those topics? Can current events be covered? Etc.



I am not sure who you are responding to here, because it isn't me. I never said books were banned. I said that, faced with ambiguity, educators are erring heavily on the side of caution and pulling anything that could even result in some fired up parent wasting their morning complaining about CRT infiltrating the schools because a book points out Dixie Walker's role in the integration of the Brooklyn Dodgers.



Textually, no. And I am certainly not advocating for an abridgement of the people's First Amendment rights, if that is what you are setting me up for here. What I am concerned about is that this bill makes all curriculum subject to the heckler's veto. At some point, you have to stop privileging ignorance. And a properly constructed and detailed curriculum is a good first step.




One man's recitation of facts is another man's advocacy. Take my voter ID example.It is a demonstrable fact that Voter ID laws disenfranchise minority voters because those voters disproportionately do not have the required ID. That is just a statement of fact. And look at how that spun off into it's own argument. Now imagine how that plays out when it involves real educators and real parents, not just a bunch of baseball card collectors wasting time on a discussion board.



I did myself no service by how I stated that earlier. My apologies. My preference is that this language, along with the language about psychological distress, not appear in the bill whatsoever, because it privileges unprovable claims over demonstrable facts and opens it up for the introduction of absurdities.



This is exactly the type of absurdity I am talking about. Bull Connor was a racist. Racism is prejudice against a person because of their race. Bull Connor was white. Bull Connor was a white supremacist. Are educational outcomes actually improved by dancing around the obvious?



And, to restate myself, the advocates should be less concerned about what it says and more concerned about how what it doesn't say can be used to strategically create chaos. Which is already happening.


And, in my opinion, the right would be much better served when they realize that stunts like this bill aren't meant to solve a problem, but rather keep Ron DeSantis' name in the news and burnish his credentials as a culture warrior in advance of the 2024 GOP Presidential primary.



If teaching about racism was solely about teaching that it is wrong to be prejudiced against someone because of their race, it would be a 30 second conversation. The history of racism in the US, though, is about racism coupled with control of the levers of power that enables someone to act on that prejudice under the color of law. And that is not a solved problem. To be sure, it is certainly better than it was in the 1860s and also the 1960s. But, it isn't solved. We still have to create a more perfect union. But, is it any less advocacy to teach the comfortable fiction that we have truly achieved a color-blind society?

In sum, I think we are each talking about a different topic. While you are talking about what is within the four walls of the bill, I am talking about what happens out in the wild as a result of the bill. You are asking "Does this sound reasonable?" and I am asking "how can someone abuse this bill in service to some other agenda?" I am not sure how we reconcile that.
Agreed. When local politicians redraw districts the text of how they do it all sounds nice and polite. If a group has an agenda they rarely announce it in those terms.

Deertick 02-14-2023 10:10 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by G1911 (Post 2314236)
It very literally and directly states that the path to slavery, the slavery experience, and the achievement of African-Americans are required to be taught, already cited. Nowhere does it ban or imply could be banned any of the things you claimed before reading the bill. You want a section specifically stating Jackie Robinson (and every other baseball player, again, the bill is "any race" except the section specifically stating black achievement and several other topics promoting a positive narrative) can be taught? This bill would be over a million pages if it had to very specifically state everything it does not affect. This is just fundamentally not how law works. No law does this lol
https://www.cnn.com/2023/02/05/polit...ory/index.html

Briefly summarized:

"Indeed, Florida has required its schools to teach African American history since 1994, long before the recent push in many states to move toward a more complete telling of the country’s story. The stated goal at the time was to introduce the Black experience to a generation of young people."

"But nearly three decades later, advocates say many Florida schools are failing to teach that history. Only 11 of the state’s 67 county school districts meet all of the benchmarks for teaching Black history set by the African American History Task Force, a state board created to help school districts abide by the mandate. Many schools only cover the topic during Black History Month in February, said Bernadette Kelley-Brown, the principal investigator for the task force.

“The idea that every Florida student learns African American history, it’s not reality,” Kelley-Brown said. “Some districts don’t even realize it’s required instruction.”

Also the 'review' of books and material results in a de facto ban, until further explicit direction is given. School boards, teachers, and administrators are threatened with civil and criminal sanctions for violations. At this point, ONE person can object to ANY perceived indiscretion to trigger investigation.

While the law as written seems 'common sense' and innocuous, the consistent rhetoric from the governor and 'parent groups' indicate the real-life intent of application.

BobbyStrawberry 02-14-2023 10:59 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deertick (Post 2314395)
https://www.cnn.com/2023/02/05/polit...ory/index.html

Briefly summarized:

"Indeed, Florida has required its schools to teach African American history since 1994, long before the recent push in many states to move toward a more complete telling of the country’s story. The stated goal at the time was to introduce the Black experience to a generation of young people."

"But nearly three decades later, advocates say many Florida schools are failing to teach that history. Only 11 of the state’s 67 county school districts meet all of the benchmarks for teaching Black history set by the African American History Task Force, a state board created to help school districts abide by the mandate. Many schools only cover the topic during Black History Month in February, said Bernadette Kelley-Brown, the principal investigator for the task force.

“The idea that every Florida student learns African American history, it’s not reality,” Kelley-Brown said. “Some districts don’t even realize it’s required instruction.”

Also the 'review' of books and material results in a de facto ban, until further explicit direction is given. School boards, teachers, and administrators are threatened with civil and criminal sanctions for violations. At this point, ONE person can object to ANY perceived indiscretion to trigger investigation.

While the law as written seems 'common sense' and innocuous, the consistent rhetoric from the governor and 'parent groups' indicate the real-life intent of application.
Behind the nakedly transparent racism of all this is the true target - public education itself. I can't imagine anyone wanting to be a schoolteacher in Florida right now.

irv 02-14-2023 12:45 PM
1 Attachment(s)
CNN...LMAO :D

These media sources are moderately to strongly biased toward liberal causes through story selection and/or political affiliation. They may utilize strong loaded words (wording that attempts to influence an audience by using appeal to emotion or stereotypes), publish misleading reports, and omit information reporting that may damage liberal causes. Some sources in this category may be untrustworthy. See all Left Bias sources.

Overall, we rate CNN left biased based on editorial positions that consistently favor the left, while straight news reporting falls left-center through bias by omission. We also rate them Mixed for factual reporting due to several failed fact checks by TV hosts. However, news reporting on the website tends to be sourced adequately with minimal failed fact checks.
https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/left/cnn-bias/

1952boyntoncollector 02-14-2023 12:51 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BobbyStrawberry (Post 2314419)
Behind the nakedly transparent racism of all this is the true target - public education itself. I can't imagine anyone wanting to be a schoolteacher in Florida right now.
or a police officer is most other states.

i also feel that with the failure rates in math and other subject areas in many of the states where the media or other criticism is coming from is so low, why not half the outrage on that versus a 'Clemente' outrage...

the more kids learn real school skills and be educated the more they will have the tools to deal with some of the hardships of life due to many areas..

Carter08 02-14-2023 02:40 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BobbyStrawberry (Post 2314419)
Behind the nakedly transparent racism of all this is the true target - public education itself. I can't imagine anyone wanting to be a schoolteacher in Florida right now.
Nakedly transparent racism. Yup. And it will somehow be defended on this board.

Peter_Spaeth 02-14-2023 03:49 PM
I was addicted to Brian Williams/Rachel Maddow MSNBC for a while just because it was so unashamedly biased that it was a huge source of entertainment for me. Watching them cover Trump's win over Hillary was special.

Carter08 02-14-2023 03:53 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth (Post 2314541)
I was addicted to Brian Williams/Rachel Maddow MSNBC for a while just because it was so unashamedly biased that it was a huge source of entertainment for me. Watching them cover Trump's win over Hillary was special.
I think that’s what some folks on the right don’t get. I lean left and get a kick out of left leaning news. I don’t take it seriously. It’s a biased joke sometimes. I hope they get a kick out of Fox News but I think they take it seriously. Ironically, Jon Stewart was the last bastion of true news.

G1911 02-14-2023 05:56 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by carlsonjok (Post 2314333)
Strawman. Those are bumper stickers, not guidelines that can be used by teachers and administrators to make good faith decisions about what to teach. Curriculum guidance needs to be detailed enough that a random sample of educators would come to essentially the same decisions. This law doesn't do that. Quite the opposite, as we are seeing play out in real time. How should a bill affecting curriculum should be constructed. I would say that it isn't a list of what is disallowed, but rather an outline of what is allowed. For the topic of racial discrimination what are the subtopics that can be covered and what evidence introduced to illuminate those topics? Can current events be covered? Etc..
They are very literally the legal guidelines. I am still struggling to find the clause you think is too vague.


Quote:
Originally Posted by carlsonjok (Post 2314333)
I am not sure who you are responding to here, because it isn't me. I never said books were banned. I said that, faced with ambiguity, educators are erring heavily on the side of caution and pulling anything that could even result in some fired up parent wasting their morning complaining about CRT infiltrating the schools because a book points out Dixie Walker's role in the integration of the Brooklyn Dodgers.

Your post is quoted right before the comment. I will quote again: "And it is that lack of specificity that is causing local schools to over-react and pull things off the shelves that rational people can agree should be there". I don't know what this is in reference too, because the books in this thread were not pulled off the shelves or banned. Again, nobody can cite any evidence these books have. What Jackie Robinson book has been pulled from the shelves? The one claimed in this thread turned out to be easily debunked fake news.



Quote:
Originally Posted by carlsonjok (Post 2314333)
Textually, no. And I am certainly not advocating for an abridgement of the people's First Amendment rights, if that is what you are setting me up for here. What I am concerned about is that this bill makes all curriculum subject to the heckler's veto. At some point, you have to stop privileging ignorance. And a properly constructed and detailed curriculum is a good first step.
It does not allow hecklers or gunny ass parents to veto any curriculum whatsoever. I'm confident you are well aware of this now that you have read it.


Quote:
Originally Posted by carlsonjok (Post 2314333)
One man's recitation of facts is another man's advocacy. Take my voter ID example.It is a demonstrable fact that Voter ID laws disenfranchise minority voters because those voters disproportionately do not have the required ID. That is just a statement of fact. And look at how that spun off into it's own argument. Now imagine how that plays out when it involves real educators and real parents, not just a bunch of baseball card collectors wasting time on a discussion board.
The law specifically protects a recitation of facts, or even of opinions. Advocacy is very different, and I am sure one can find an edge case, but this is taking it to ab absurdist level where we pretend the two things mean the same. They do not.


Quote:
Originally Posted by carlsonjok (Post 2314333)
This is exactly the type of absurdity I am talking about. Bull Connor was a racist. Racism is prejudice against a person because of their race. Bull Connor was white. Bull Connor was a white supremacist. Are educational outcomes actually improved by dancing around the obvious?
What dancing? It's fine to say Bull Connor was white. It's fine to say Bull Connor was a racist. It's fine to say Bull Connor was a white supremacist. None of what you said is impacted by this bill. You just can't say, again, "Bull Connor was a white supremacist because he was white", or any other person of any race. It only bans advocating racism, that a person is X, Y, Z because of their skin color.

Quote:
Originally Posted by carlsonjok (Post 2314333)
And, to restate myself, the advocates should be less concerned about what it says and more concerned about how what it doesn't say can be used to strategically create chaos. Which is already happening.
I think what a bill actually, in real actual fact, does is far more important than the often factually wrong and absurdist ideological statements made around it by any faction.


Quote:
Originally Posted by carlsonjok (Post 2314333)
And, in my opinion, the right would be much better served when they realize that stunts like this bill aren't meant to solve a problem, but rather keep Ron DeSantis' name in the news and burnish his credentials as a culture warrior in advance of the 2024 GOP Presidential primary.
Don't disagree. It's a stunt. It seems to be working for him as he's getting the exact reaction intended, where the media does its thing and openly lies about the bill, which he then gets to spin to his base as more confirmation of their existing beliefs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by carlsonjok (Post 2314333)
If teaching about racism was solely about teaching that it is wrong to be prejudiced against someone because of their race, it would be a 30 second conversation. The history of racism in the US, though, is about racism coupled with control of the levers of power that enables someone to act on that prejudice under the color of law. And that is not a solved problem. To be sure, it is certainly better than it was in the 1860s and also the 1960s. But, it isn't solved. We still have to create a more perfect union. But, is it any less advocacy to teach the comfortable fiction that we have truly achieved a color-blind society?
This has nothing to do with the actual bill. It does not at all mandate anyone to teach that we have achieved a color-blind society; it says you can't advocate racism in 8 specific ways it delineates, against any race. It then requires instruction in the history and achievement of multiple minority groups. I have said nothing that could possibly be construed as believing or promoting the belief that the US is color-blind.

Quote:
Originally Posted by carlsonjok (Post 2314333)
In sum, I think we are each talking about a different topic. While you are talking about what is within the four walls of the bill, I am talking about what happens out in the wild as a result of the bill. You are asking "Does this sound reasonable?" and I am asking "how can someone abuse this bill in service to some other agenda?" I am not sure how we reconcile that.
Yes, I am talking about the actual bill and not peoples fantasies. The law is the actual text, not what people feel or what people claim or what people think their political enemies might claim. Reality of the law > political narratives of that law that are not in the law in actual fact. I cannot fathom why anyone would put culture war points over actual fact. I do not understand why people have adopted such a tribalist mentality that they must attack or make false claims about anything anyone outside of their political tribe has passed, even before reading it, and will put their 'side' over reason. A person should use reason, not conspiracy theories of abuse they or op-ed writers of similar political leaning have imagined in their head and have nothing to do with the law and are not actually enabled by it. People always have the choice to use the great gift of reason, of stepping back and looking at actual fact instead of political narratives. These are minority views that I have.

G1911 02-14-2023 06:20 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector (Post 2314322)
the sad part is 99% of the people with far more influence than you gave 99% less thought and detail in the actual law than you did......the voters probably even less thought. yet one voter one vote......and its a shame they get their information on impacts of laws from people that dont actually read them.

i am all for opposing views but opposing views when there is really no thought and just reliance on media or op ed who dont actually read the laws makes it hard to view an opposing view..
In a perfect world we could all read everything; I completely understand people having opinions on 2,000 page budget bills they haven’t read because it’s so much work and designed to be confusing.

This one is short and direct. It takes 10 minutes at most to read. Those who have read it struggle to find anything specific to attack and still choose to follow op-ed claims instead that are demonstrably false, or to even go so far as to dismiss a reason based standard entirely because they cannot find what is unreasonable and actually in the bill. The only giveaway that this was written by Republicans instead of Democrats is the “any race”; only that there’s no carve out to not protect whites like every other race.

Carter08 02-14-2023 06:26 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by G1911 (Post 2314610)
They are very literally the legal guidelines. I am still struggling to find the clause you think is too vague.





Your post is quoted right before the comment. I will quote again: "And it is that lack of specificity that is causing local schools to over-react and pull things off the shelves that rational people can agree should be there". I don't know what this is in reference too, because the books in this thread were not pulled off the shelves or banned. Again, nobody can cite any evidence these books have. What Jackie Robinson book has been pulled from the shelves? The one claimed in this thread turned out to be easily debunked fake news.





It does not allow hecklers or gunny ass parents to veto any curriculum whatsoever. I'm confident you are well aware of this now that you have read it.




The law specifically protects a recitation of facts, or even of opinions. Advocacy is very different, and I am sure one can find an edge case, but this is taking it to ab absurdist level where we pretend the two things mean the same. They do not.




What dancing? It's fine to say Bull Connor was white. It's fine to say Bull Connor was a racist. It's fine to say Bull Connor was a white supremacist. None of what you said is impacted by this bill. You just can't say, again, "Bull Connor was a white supremacist because he was white", or any other person of any race. It only bans advocating racism, that a person is X, Y, Z because of their skin color.



I think what a bill actually, in real actual fact, does is far more important than the often factually wrong and absurdist ideological statements made around it by any faction.




Don't disagree. It's a stunt. It seems to be working for him as he's getting the exact reaction intended, where the media does its thing and openly lies about the bill, which he then gets to spin to his base as more confirmation of their existing beliefs.



This has nothing to do with the actual bill. It does not at all mandate anyone to teach that we have achieved a color-blind society; it says you can't advocate racism in 8 specific ways it delineates, against any race. It then requires instruction in the history and achievement of multiple minority groups. I have said nothing that could possibly be construed as believing or promoting the belief that the US is color-blind.



Yes, I am talking about the actual bill and not peoples fantasies. The law is the actual text, not what people feel or what people claim or what people think their political enemies might claim. Reality of the law > political narratives of that law that are not in the law in actual fact. I cannot fathom why anyone would put culture war points over actual fact. I do not understand why people have adopted such a tribalist mentality that they must attack or make false claims about anything anyone outside of their political tribe has passed, even before reading it, and will put their 'side' over reason. A person should use reason, not conspiracy theories of abuse they or op-ed writers of similar political leaning have imagined in their head and have nothing to do with the law and are not actually enabled by it. People always have the choice to use the great gift of reason, of stepping back and looking at actual fact instead of political narratives. These are minority views that I have.
Florida is a rare state that has a superplex of republican control of the government - governor, both houses, most major offices. They pass what you think is a benign law regarding the content of books. The governor has presidential aspirations. Whether he would make a good or bad president I don’t know but to think this isn’t meant to cater to right leaning thinking in Florida and nationwide is naive. The banning of a Clemente book headline is what this was designed to do and it will increase his base support.

Mark17 02-14-2023 08:35 PM
1 Attachment(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by irv (Post 2314473)
CNN...LMAO :D
Irv, I've got some startling news for you. This dog isn't sniffing the other one's butt.....

bnorth 02-14-2023 08:55 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark17 (Post 2314696)
Irv, I've got some startling news for you. This dog isn't sniffing the other one's butt.....
Thats close enough for facebook and twitter.:D

irv 02-14-2023 08:56 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mark17 (Post 2314696)
irv, i've got some startling news for you. This dog isn't sniffing the other one's butt.....
lol. :d

carlsonjok 02-15-2023 06:00 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by G1911 (Post 2314610)
They are very literally the legal guidelines. I am still struggling to find the clause you think is too vague.
I've stated it several times and will state it several more in this post. The bill purports to set curriculum, but it provides no detail about what is in the approved curriculum beyond chapter headings.

Quote:
Your post is quoted right before the comment. I will quote again: "And it is that lack of specificity that is causing local schools to over-react and pull things off the shelves that rational people can agree should be there". I don't know what this is in reference too, because the books in this thread were not pulled off the shelves or banned. Again, nobody can cite any evidence these books have. What Jackie Robinson book has been pulled from the shelves? The one claimed in this thread turned out to be easily debunked fake news.
I am sitting here absolutely amazed. Not only are you telling me I am saying something I am not saying, you actually provided a direct quote from me that doesn't say what you say it does. I believe you are engaging in good faith, so I have to believe there is a fundamental disconnect here. In a possibly apocryphal story, Vince Lombardi once gathered his team together after a particularly bad loss, held up a ball and said "Gentlemen, this is a football. Stop me if I am going too fast." I feel like I need to be a bit pedantic here.

A ban is an "official or legal prohibition." A ban says *these* books cannot be in your classroom. What we are seeing is educators, because they have no clear guidance, voluntarily (albeit reluctantly) pulling anything even tangentially related to the topic off the shelf.

Quote:
It does not allow hecklers or gunny ass parents to veto any curriculum whatsoever. I'm confident you are well aware of this now that you have read it.
Here again, you seem to be working from a completely different language than I am. Heckler's veto:

In the United States, a heckler's veto is a situation in which a party who disagrees with a speaker's message is able to unilaterally trigger events that result in the speaker being silenced. For example, a heckler can disrupt a speech to the point that the speech is canceled.

In the legal sense, a heckler's veto occurs when the speaker's right is curtailed or restricted by the government in order to prevent a reacting party's behavior. The common example is the termination of a speech or demonstration in the interest of maintaining the public peace based on the anticipated negative reaction of someone opposed to that speech or demonstration.


Quote:
What dancing? It's fine to say Bull Connor was white. It's fine to say Bull Connor was a racist. It's fine to say Bull Connor was a white supremacist. None of what you said is impacted by this bill. You just can't say, again, "Bull Connor was a white supremacist because he was white", or any other person of any race. It only bans advocating racism, that a person is X, Y, Z because of their skin color.
Bull Connor wasn't a white supremacist because he suffered from male pattern baldness. He was a white supremacist because he was white. Writing a law that makes stating the obvious legally untenable is absurd and I struggle to understand how you can't see that.

Quote:
I think what a bill actually, in real actual fact, does is far more important than the often factually wrong and absurdist ideological statements made around it by any faction.
Out here in the real world what this bill is doing is creating confusion, controversy, protest and, in a not-too-distant day, lawsuits. I mean look at what it is doing here where it is just a throwaway conversation between a bunch of bored greyheads. Out in real schools, it is a rolling disaster.

Quote:
This has nothing to do with the actual bill.
But everything to do with the actual topic that the bill purports to address.

Quote:
It does not at all mandate anyone to teach that we have achieved a color-blind society;
Woe be unto the first teacher that points out how various laws that are being passed today (probably even in Florida) are de facto racially discriminatory. Their life is about to get a whole lot more complicated.

Quote:
Yes, I am talking about the actual bill and not peoples fantasies. The law is the actual text, not what people feel or what people claim or what people think their political enemies might claim. Reality of the law > political narratives of that law that are not in the law in actual fact. I cannot fathom why anyone would put culture war points over actual fact. I do not understand why people have adopted such a tribalist mentality that they must attack or make false claims about anything anyone outside of their political tribe has passed, even before reading it, and will put their 'side' over reason. A person should use reason, not conspiracy theories of abuse they or op-ed writers of similar political leaning have imagined in their head and have nothing to do with the law and are not actually enabled by it. People always have the choice to use the great gift of reason, of stepping back and looking at actual fact instead of political narratives. These are minority views that I have.
Fathom this. Published yesterday.

Leon 02-15-2023 08:25 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth (Post 2313681)
i don't understand critical race theory in that way. I understand it, at a very simplified level, to be that racism is not just an individual phenomenon but an institutionalized (legal and social) phenomenon. I am not agreeing with it in any way. But I would not ban it as a matter of law, any more than I would rename a school because the person owned slaves.
+1. Banning this book is stupid, imo.

G1911 02-15-2023 11:00 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by carlsonjok (Post 2314769)
I've stated it several times and will state it several more in this post. The bill purports to set curriculum, but it provides no detail about what is in the approved curriculum beyond chapter headings.
Have you ever read any other education bill? I'm guessing the answer is no. They are not usually 10,000+ page behemoths stipulating every single possible thing that can be said.


Quote:
Originally Posted by carlsonjok (Post 2314769)
I am sitting here absolutely amazed. Not only are you telling me I am saying something I am not saying, you actually provided a direct quote from me that doesn't say what you say it does. I believe you are engaging in good faith, so I have to believe there is a fundamental disconnect here. In a possibly apocryphal story, Vince Lombardi once gathered his team together after a particularly bad loss, held up a ball and said "Gentlemen, this is a football. Stop me if I am going too fast." I feel like I need to be a bit pedantic here.

A ban is an "official or legal prohibition." A ban says *these* books cannot be in your classroom. What we are seeing is educators, because they have no clear guidance, voluntarily (albeit reluctantly) pulling anything even tangentially related to the topic off the shelf.
I'm amazed your second paragraph says it again after the first so angrily denies it and your original comment lol. These Jackie and Roberto books, the subject of this thread, were not banned. They were not removed by teachers. The district said they were never on the shelf in the first place. It is impossible to remove what is not there. You can just make things up as much as you want, though.


Quote:
Originally Posted by carlsonjok (Post 2314769)
Here again, you seem to be working from a completely different language than I am. Heckler's veto:

In the United States, a heckler's veto is a situation in which a party who disagrees with a speaker's message is able to unilaterally trigger events that result in the speaker being silenced. For example, a heckler can disrupt a speech to the point that the speech is canceled.

In the legal sense, a heckler's veto occurs when the speaker's right is curtailed or restricted by the government in order to prevent a reacting party's behavior. The common example is the termination of a speech or demonstration in the interest of maintaining the public peace based on the anticipated negative reaction of someone opposed to that speech or demonstration.
School board meetings are unaffected in any way by this bill. That is an actual fact. This, of course, is why you cannot point to anything actually in the bill for this, and just screech a party narrative. This bill, factually, does not adjust school board meetings in any way, shape, or form. You appear to be working from a dictionary you have just completely made up lol. Did you actually read the bill? I might even agree with you on a bill proposing reforms to school board meetings, but this bill is not that bill and I cannot figure out how a reasonable person would think it is after reading the actual text.


Quote:
Originally Posted by carlsonjok (Post 2314769)
Bull Connor wasn't a white supremacist because he suffered from male pattern baldness. He was a white supremacist because he was white. Writing a law that makes stating the obvious legally untenable is absurd and I struggle to understand how you can't see that.
"Person X is [insert bad thing] because of their race" is racist. My personal opinion is we should not teach that to children, because I think racism is illogical and as a liberal, immoral and reprehensible. If you want to argue that we should teach racism, or racism only against a specific race, as policy, do so. I have seen no evidence that a person possesses a particular idea or character trait because of their race and does not make their own decisions or have will. Bull Connor and many like him made their choice, others of all races made the opposite and fought for Civil Rights even when it wasn't their rights. If Connor was a terrible racist because of his race, then everyone white would have been a Bull Connor. The historical record makes clear they did not all make that same choice and this claim is absurd.

Quote:
Originally Posted by carlsonjok (Post 2314769)
Out here in the real world what this bill is doing is creating confusion, controversy, protest and, in a not-too-distant day, lawsuits. I mean look at what it is doing here where it is just a throwaway conversation between a bunch of bored greyheads. Out in real schools, it is a rolling disaster.

But everything to do with the actual topic that the bill purports to address.
There is little excuse for the confusion, as it takes less than 10 minutes to read and the people outraged continue to be unable to actually find anything in the bill to object too. So much so, that a reason based standard itself has to be dismissed in order to toe the party line here.


Quote:
Originally Posted by carlsonjok (Post 2314769)
Woe be unto the first teacher that points out how various laws that are being passed today (probably even in Florida) are de facto racially discriminatory. Their life is about to get a whole lot more complicated.



Fathom this. Published yesterday.
Yet again, the bill does not bar a teacher from saying a bill is discriminatory, whatsoever. This is, for the 20th time or so, why you cannot cite anything in the bill when you make these things up and just throw a false claim out there as if it is true. I'm rather surprised there is apparently no counter-argument to this bill that is predicated on the actual content of the bill and not political fantasy.

This has nothing to do with race at all. According to this article, this book was removed after a complaint (which was not even actually filed) that it had a pornographic scene. Proponents of the book say it is a non-arousing rape scene. It's been a number of years since I've read it (I like Morrison), but incest, rape, and child molestation are an integral part of the story and its metaphor and I cannot fathom how it would be considered pornographic.

Pornography, what the article states is the reason, appears once in the bill:

320 1003.41. Instructional materials recommended by each reviewer
321 shall be, to the satisfaction of each reviewer, accurate,
322 objective, balanced, noninflammatory, current, free of
323 pornography and material prohibited under s. 847.012, and suited
324 to student needs and their ability to comprehend the material
325 presented. Reviewers shall consider for recommendation materials
326 developed for academically talented students, such as students
327 enrolled in advanced placement courses.

I see no way a reasonable person could read this book, consider it obscene pornography under 847, and thus subject to ban from a high school. The students protesting the ban will surely win out here, as the law clearly does not in fact ban this. I have no issue with the bill banning pornography from schools. I suppose it is good that of the 3 books named in this thread, 1 actually has been removed from a school and only 2 were complete fake news! This superintendent overreacted, clearly did not read the law, and will surely regret it.

carlsonjok 02-16-2023 05:16 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by G1911 (Post 2314848)
Quote:
Originally Posted by carlsonjok View Post
I am sitting here absolutely amazed. Not only are you telling me I am saying something I am not saying, you actually provided a direct quote from me that doesn't say what you say it does. I believe you are engaging in good faith, so I have to believe there is a fundamental disconnect here. In a possibly apocryphal story, Vince Lombardi once gathered his team together after a particularly bad loss, held up a ball and said "Gentlemen, this is a football. Stop me if I am going too fast." I feel like I need to be a bit pedantic here.

A ban is an "official or legal prohibition." A ban says *these* books cannot be in your classroom. What we are seeing is educators, because they have no clear guidance, voluntarily (albeit reluctantly) pulling anything even tangentially related to the topic off the shelf.
I'm amazed your second paragraph says it again after the first so angrily denies it and your original comment lol. These Jackie and Roberto books, the subject of this thread, were not banned. They were not removed by teachers. The district said they were never on the shelf in the first place. It is impossible to remove what is not there. You can just make things up as much as you want, though.
I was warned that this moment would come and here it is. It is utterly incomprehensible that you can directly quote me and then insist I said the exact opposite. I am not sure how this happens, although I can think of a number of different explanations. None of them are particularly complementary.

1952boyntoncollector 02-16-2023 07:04 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carter08 (Post 2314545)
I think that’s what some folks on the right don’t get. I lean left and get a kick out of left leaning news. I don’t take it seriously. It’s a biased joke sometimes. I hope they get a kick out of Fox News but I think they take it seriously. Ironically, Jon Stewart was the last bastion of true news.
well fox is talking about coverup with the train chemical fire as a main story...we shall see what happens but if the chemicals are deadly they are serving a good media purpose, it will follow a dont trust government agenda but you weigh it against:

CNN will cover the michigan st shooting and say its all white supremecy /guns/republicans fault and story and not sure what the media purpose is for that

Deertick 02-16-2023 08:11 AM
Miami Herald editorial. Lots of links with background info:

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/no...8484a040ad5a30

Just one example of how the 'plain unambiguous text' of the law is anything but:

https://popular.info/p/how-to-ban-36...ks-from-school

G1911 02-16-2023 11:37 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by carlsonjok (Post 2315017)
I was warned that this moment would come and here it is. It is utterly incomprehensible that you can directly quote me and then insist I said the exact opposite.
The transcript speaks for itself. In 128 and on you have referred to these books (which a reasonable reader can only presume are the books in question we have all been talking about, as nothing else is named or referenced instead) as being removed. They were not removed. It is impossible to remove a book that wasn't there. It took 30 seconds to find the districts statement.



Quote:
Originally Posted by carlsonjok (Post 2315017)
I am not sure how this happens, although I can think of a number of different explanations. None of them are particularly complementary.
I don't doubt it. It's the normal path of the ideologue, judgement before reading what is in question, then being unable to cite their claims in the document in question, the dismissal of reason and a reason standard itself because that doesn't find what they want to find, until the anger and ad hominem are all that's left. I will leave the personal shit talk to our delightful ideologues. Happy collecting

carlsonjok 02-16-2023 12:32 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by G1911 (Post 2315110)
The transcript speaks for itself. In 128 and on you have referred to these books (which a reasonable reader can only presume are the books in question we have all been talking about, as nothing else is named or referenced instead) as being removed. They were not removed. It is impossible to remove a book that wasn't there. It took 30 seconds to find the districts statement.
You know, since you know more about what I mean than I do, perhaps you should just carry on both sides of the conversation yourself. That way you are sparring with your intellectual equal and, at the end, can congratulate yourself on your brilliance.

Carter08 02-16-2023 01:48 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by carlsonjok (Post 2315136)
You know, since you know more about what I mean than I do, perhaps you should just carry on both sides of the conversation yourself. That way you are sparring with your intellectual equal and, at the end, can congratulate yourself on your brilliance.
Ha

Deertick 02-16-2023 02:27 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by G1911 (Post 2315110)
They were not removed. It is impossible to remove a book that wasn't there. It took 30 seconds to find the districts statement.
Can you post a link to that statement? The only ones that I found confirmed the removal of books to be 'reviewed', none addressing whether Duval Co had the books available in the first place. As a matter of fact, The Duval Co Public Schools database shows the exact opposite: That it IS present, has been removed and is 'pending' rejection or approval.

Edited to add: It appears that these books were ordered in the summer of 2021 and have NOT been on the shelves as they have been delayed by 10 months undergoing 'review'. So, literally, they were NOT removed since they haven't made it to the shelves yet. That makes this whole thing seem so much better!

Intended classrooms Book and author(s) Review status
3rd grade When Aidan Became A Brother, by Kyle Lukoff and Kaylani Juanita Rejected
3rd grade Henry Aaron’s Dream, by Matt Tavares Pending
3rd grade Roberto Clemente: Pride of the Pittsburgh Pirates, by Jonah Winter and Raúl Colón Pending
3rd grade Wilma’s Way Home: The Life of Wilma Mankiller, by Doreen Rappaport and Linda Kukuk Pending
3rd grade 14 Cows for America, by Carmen Agra Deedy, Wilson Kimeli Naiyomah and Thomas Gonzalez Approved
3rd grade A Dog Named Haku: A Holiday Story from Nepal, by Margarita Engle, Amish Karanjit, Nicole Karanjit, and Ruth Jeyaveeran Approved
3rd grade A Storm Called Katrina, by Myron Uhlberg and Colin Bootman Approved

Carter08 02-16-2023 05:27 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deertick (Post 2315172)
Can you post a link to that statement? The only ones that I found confirmed the removal of books to be 'reviewed', none addressing whether Duval Co had the books available in the first place. As a matter of fact, The Duval Co Public Schools database shows the exact opposite: That it IS present, has been removed and is 'pending' rejection or approval.

Edited to add: It appears that these books were ordered in the summer of 2021 and have NOT been on the shelves as they have been delayed by 10 months undergoing 'review'. So, literally, they were NOT removed since they haven't made it to the shelves yet. That makes this whole thing seem so much better!

Intended classrooms Book and author(s) Review status
3rd grade When Aidan Became A Brother, by Kyle Lukoff and Kaylani Juanita Rejected
3rd grade Henry Aaron’s Dream, by Matt Tavares Pending
3rd grade Roberto Clemente: Pride of the Pittsburgh Pirates, by Jonah Winter and Raúl Colón Pending
3rd grade Wilma’s Way Home: The Life of Wilma Mankiller, by Doreen Rappaport and Linda Kukuk Pending
3rd grade 14 Cows for America, by Carmen Agra Deedy, Wilson Kimeli Naiyomah and Thomas Gonzalez Approved
3rd grade A Dog Named Haku: A Holiday Story from Nepal, by Margarita Engle, Amish Karanjit, Nicole Karanjit, and Ruth Jeyaveeran Approved
3rd grade A Storm Called Katrina, by Myron Uhlberg and Colin Bootman Approved
Jim, stop adding facts into the discussion! That’s not favored here.

Peter_Spaeth 02-16-2023 06:00 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deertick (Post 2315172)
Can you post a link to that statement? The only ones that I found confirmed the removal of books to be 'reviewed', none addressing whether Duval Co had the books available in the first place. As a matter of fact, The Duval Co Public Schools database shows the exact opposite: That it IS present, has been removed and is 'pending' rejection or approval.

Edited to add: It appears that these books were ordered in the summer of 2021 and have NOT been on the shelves as they have been delayed by 10 months undergoing 'review'. So, literally, they were NOT removed since they haven't made it to the shelves yet. That makes this whole thing seem so much better!

Intended classrooms Book and author(s) Review status
3rd grade When Aidan Became A Brother, by Kyle Lukoff and Kaylani Juanita Rejected
3rd grade Henry Aaron’s Dream, by Matt Tavares Pending
3rd grade Roberto Clemente: Pride of the Pittsburgh Pirates, by Jonah Winter and Raúl Colón Pending
3rd grade Wilma’s Way Home: The Life of Wilma Mankiller, by Doreen Rappaport and Linda Kukuk Pending
3rd grade 14 Cows for America, by Carmen Agra Deedy, Wilson Kimeli Naiyomah and Thomas Gonzalez Approved
3rd grade A Dog Named Haku: A Holiday Story from Nepal, by Margarita Engle, Amish Karanjit, Nicole Karanjit, and Ruth Jeyaveeran Approved
3rd grade A Storm Called Katrina, by Myron Uhlberg and Colin Bootman Approved
A dog? LOL. Yeah, that one surely sounds like it needs careful scrutiny lest our youth go astray.

Is the problem that the dog is black?

It's the Festival of Lights in Nepal, and today is the day to honor dogs! Brothers Alu and Bhalu wander the streets of Kathmandu, passing by twirling kites and bamboo swings, looking for a dog to feed. But as night falls, their task begins to feel hopeless, until they spot a small black dog who is in need of a friend. This sweet story presents an important Hindu holiday through the eyes of two young boys, making it relatable for both those familiar with the holiday and those reading about it for the first time.

Maybe the story is code for critical race theory?

Is this really what we want for ourselves?

AustinMike 02-17-2023 08:29 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by G1911 (Post 2313614)
...

Here's 51-83 with what it actually doesn't allow instruction of. What part do you think is a problem and want to debate instead of the books that it obviously doesn't ban?

57 3. An individual’s moral character or status as either
58 privileged or oppressed is necessarily determined by his or her
59 race, color, sex, or national origin.
Not banned - While preparing for the upcoming season during spring training in Florida, Roberto Clemente was not allowed to stay in many of the hotels near the camp.

Banned - While preparing for the upcoming season during spring training in Florida, Roberto Clemente was not allowed to stay in many of the hotels near the camp because he is black.

Unclear - While preparing for the upcoming season during spring training in Florida, Roberto Clemente, who is black, was not allowed to stay in many of the hotels near the camp.

Yes, the law allows slavery to be taught and talked about. However, according to the law, not a single person can be said to have been discriminated against because of their skin color. Hence, since the civil war, life has been a bed of roses for black people. According to the law, no black person can be said to have been denied access to hotels, restaurants, etc. solely because of their skin color.

Hence, the potential banning of books about Roberto Clemente, Jackie Robinson, Hank Aaron, etc. Books cannot mention that they were oppressed because their skin color was black.


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