Check out what he did or didn't do in late August 2007 against the Phillies during the Mets awful collapse in 2007. The guy got the routine saves not the ones when the pressure was on. I remember him blowing a 4-0 lead against the Yankees at Shea.

This is just freaking stupid.

So he blew ONE lead against the Yankees in May of 2006 and that means he can't get saves when the pressure is on. Never mind that his ERA against the Yankees was 0.82 outside of that one appearance. Also weird that you don't remember that he got saves in 1-run games against the Yankees the day before and after that blown one.

Yeah, he had a bad stretch at the end of August in 2007. That happens. When you cherry pick 3 or 4 games out of 850, you're going to find some bad ones. That's like saying Mariano Rivera sucked in the World Series because he blew Game 7 in 2001. Or trashing Rivera because he was horrible in 1995.

Bold assertion since they didn't play in the Series and the Mets won 2 of the 3 games he pitched in the NLCS. I'm thinking scoring 1 run against the illustrious crew of Jeff Suppan and Randy Flores in game 7 had a little more to do with it. Or Paul La Duca hitting .207 with 1 extra base hit in the series. Or David Wright hitting .160.

I had to go back to the first post to realize that when people were talking about 'Wagner and Jones', they did not mean Billy Wagner and Doug Jones. Jones was the Astros closer a couple of years before Billy Wagner. Jones was really good, and fun to watch. They were both good closers in Astros' history. It never occurred to me that they would make it to the Hall of Fame.

jingram058, how in the world can you not see Craig Biggio as worthy of the Hall of Fame? If we went by your definition we'd have no one in the Hall of Fame.

I forgot about Doug Jones. Interesting career. His entire career seemed to teeter from abysmal to getting MVP votes for his bullpen work, from one year to the next. Didn't really get a good taste of Major League ball until he was 30 years old...but hung around until his mid-40's, and is listed as 12th All-Time in "Games Finished".

781. Fringe Vanilla
The players whose career numbers are somewhat in the neighborhood of Cooperstown-worthy respectability, but don’t enjoy much, if any, serious support from baseball fans for enshrinement.

See also: Free-for-Hall - any thread that was ostensibly started to ‘discuss’ the merits of various enshrined Hall of Famers, but devolves into a rancorous, opinionated airing of grievances.

I respectfully disagree. I'm not in Houston, but I watched him for his entire career, and not until he approached 3000 hits did I ever think I was looking at a HOFer. Darn excellent player, sure. But not Schmidt or Morgan or FThomas. Sorry.

All while throwing a fastball as fast as I could!! I hated that the Tribe let him go.

I also don't recall thinking about Biggio as a HOF level player much when he was playing -- Bagwell was the guy on the Astros.... Then I read Bill James's Historical Abstract ... Biggio was still active and James made a typically convincing case that he was a very valuable player -- he had him ranked highly as an all-time 2B. Then Biggio's 3000 hits basically cemented his HOF candidacy. Until the use of PEDs (suspected or proven) 3000 hits punched the ticket to Cooperstown (just like 300 Wins and 500 Home Runs did).
James was impressed by Biggio's ability to get on base -- he took a lot of HBP almost passed Jennings's all-time mark... missed by two. (maybe Anthony Rizzo will pass it if he sticks around)
Anyway, looking at Biggio's baseball-reference page what jumps out at me is his Runs scored. Career: 1844.
---
Looking at the voting it looks like Rolen and maybe Helton are the only ones who have a chance. The pre-reported numbers are generally better than the ultimate tally so it would not shock me if the writers throw a shutout.

Well, IF we are keeping him out because of that one game, then we have to keep Andruw Jones out because of his stint with the Dodgers in 2008, where he taunted us about his abysmal stat line by walking to the plate to the song "Don't Worry, Be Happy".

Ugh.

earlywynnfan, he has 3,000 hits and over 1800 runs scored. If that's not a Hall of Famer I don't know what is.

Many people seem to measure the Hall-of-Fame by the inner circle players. Others seem to want to throw the doors open and invite everyone in. Personally, I think there is a place somewhere in the middle. I also think that those who believe Harold Baines is the worst HOF entry have not paid attention to the players.

Dazzy Vance, Eppa Rixey, Max Carey, Tony Perez, Joe Sewell, Joe Tinker, Jimmy Collins, Elmer Flick, Nellie Fox etc are all in the Hall. It's hard to argue any of them were better than Helton, Rolen or Andruw Jones. And I could add 20 other names without much difficulty.

It also seems that some people prefer to ignore a player's position when it comes to their stats. 3B and CF are both positions that have had very few huge offensive superstars. Rolen was one of the best with a glove at 3B and a great offensive player. Jones was arguably the best defensive CF, and was a serious power hitter (albeit with a low batting average).

When it comes to relievers I understand people who prefer to measure them against pitchers of the past, and no reliever will match up. But we have had relief pitchers for roughly half a century. For me, this is enough to measure relievers against each other. I wasn't a big Wagner fan, but I'm good with him in.

Sheffield I don't know enough about the steroid considerations to comment.

If I had a vote I would probably vote for:
- Todd Helton
- Scott Rolen
- Andruw Jones
- Bobby Abreu

Also with Johan Santana was still on the ballot. I want anyone that was the 'best player in baseball' for a 5 year period to be in, almost regardless of what the rest of their career looked like. I'm glad Koufax is in, comfortable with Dizzy Dean being in, and think Santana (and someday DeGrom) should be in. Though I know this is my take on the Hall. I like high peak over extended solid performance as a general rule.

I agree with your thesis that people should not be using Mike Schmidt and Frank Thomas as the baseline for a hall of famer, but I have to disagree on CF. CF ranks very high among all positions for number of “huge offensive superstars”. Cobb, Speaker, DiMaggio, Mantle, Mays, Griffey, Trout, etc.

I’d also remove Jimmy Collins from the list. He was widely (almost unanimously) considered the greatest 3B until Pie Traynor, even if his numbers don’t appeal to the modern eye. He was the best of his position for a generation.

I haven't looked at the fielding data, but I have always been of the opinion that Andruw Jones was one of the greatest defensive players of all time. I value that highly.

I'm with you on that. I value high peak over longevity as well. I'm more interested in who the best players were rather than who played the longest. Santana was an absolute murderer on the mound for several years.

this is my definition as well. Although I haven't personally decided if peak should be 5 yrs or 7 yrs. I've heard arguments for both.

A side note, IMO, the best thing for the HOF would be voiding future participation if voters return a blank ballot. Some voters have done that year after year. Get rid of them.

Sent from my SM-G9900 using Tapatalk

Superior players have been denied prior to Rolen.

Rizzuto needs a damnatio memoriae from the hall, agreed

I've always seen the Baseball Hall of Fame as a tiered structure, with different levels for various levels of accomplishment. If you only put the best of the best in the Hall of Fame there wouldn't be very many players at all.

I think the voters generally get it right. There are a handful of all-time greats, a larger number of great-but-not-inner-circle players, a larger number of guys who can convincingly be argued one way or the other, and some of them are in or will get in eventually, some won't, and then there are a few head-scratchers.

+1

- of course, I have a definite bias toward lefties, plus he finished with the Braves!



.

well , what if DUI ended up killing someone..if still ok to be in HOF than i agree


but if you dont agree then a hypocrit...because when DUI you cant control what will happen...shouldnt get credit for failing in the attempt...if ok with DUI and killing someone and going to Hall than fine..

What percent of the adult population have never in their life even once driven while over the legal alcohol limit or under the influence of any drugs? I’d be shocked if the number was over 40%.

The Hall of Fame honors baseball career achievement, not everybody’s pet crusade. We’ve gone from game rigging and steroid cheating to arguing to keep out anyone who dissents with anything or someone people don’t even know and just don’t like.

The 'everyone else is doing it' defense. If kill someone with DUI, i guess can try that as a defense and see how that works out. Afterall any of those 40% could of also killed someone when over the legal limit or under the influence of drugs as well.

I didn't say it was good. It is common. Personally, I am more aligned with the people against. I am an anti-drug teetotaler, but I don't think my personal views on the right way to live life have any bearing whatsoever on the Baseball Hall of Fame. I strongly doubt anyone here is so morally pure that they've never done anything negative.

I do not see why many want to turn every hall debate into pearl clutching moral or political crusades over things half the population is guilty of. It seems obvious that the Hall of Fame is not supposed to be about everybody's personal narrative, but is about actual baseball performance.

right i didnt say you dont go to the hall of fame..it is what it is

DUI whether killing someone or regular DUI that could of killed someone , both can be in the HOF...thats fine....they are the same....its fine that you can be in the HOF for any of those...... .I never said you cant still be in the HOF...i just stated that you cant split it and say DUI killed someone and not get in but DUI and lucky you didnt kill somone get in HOF would be silly...its do either of those crimes and not in HOF or be in HOF....

Really not relevant the 'everyone else is doing it' is also my point...doesnt matter if nobody else is doing it....

I hear what you are saying about CF'ers, though after the small number of absolute legends, thre is a pretty big dropoff. Jones is the 14th best CF by B-R WAR (if one cares about that). Most positions have far more than 14 players in the Hall.

Regarding Collins, I'm not as familiar with him, so that is good to know.

Did you read this part: "and not until he approached 3000 hits did I ever think I was looking at a HOFer."??

As much as I like stats I'm going to go unscientific and say if Andruw Jones' defense gets him in then I want Devon White in. He was the best centerfielder I saw personally.

I'd say the same about Jim Edmonds!

Jim Edmonds is a good name to bring up. His numbers best Jones (by a lot in batting average and OPS+) other than homers and RBIs and he has two less gloves but did win a championship. Difference in WAR is negligible too though in favor of Jones.

Edmonds bothers me though. Not that he was a bad fielder, but I saw him make two many late jumps and bad judgements that he then rectified with an amazing play. He was diving on plays where his predecessor (White) would have just easily glided to the ball.

Jones also hit 400+ homers, including 51 one year. He brought a lot to the table besides his defense.

TZR
Jones 253
White 133
Edmonds 80

dWAR
Jones 24.4
White 16.8
Edmonds .4

Jones was significantly better than White defensively and Edmonds was pretty average. It isn't just about making highlight plays (Edmonds and Griffey we're good at that), it is about range and catching balls that other players couldn't. Andruw Jones was the best defensive outfielder of all time and has a higher TZR than Ozzie Smith. If Ozzie's defense was good enough to elect him to the HOF, then Andruw Jones is a Hofer.

Maybe you saw plays I didn’t, but I didn’t se him making late jumps and bad reads. I saw the opposite. Edmonds played shallow centerfield on purpose, to shrink the outfield for hitters, having the confidence in his reactions and reads that he could get back on everything over him, which he did.

I don't think it makes sense to compare Andruw Jones to Ozzie Smith vis a vis defense. Ozzie played shortstop. If you look at the shortstops elected to the HOF before him, aside from Wagner, Banks, and Arky Vaughan you have a mix of mostly light to average hitting but smooth fielding players: Travis Jackson, Joe Tinker, Bobby Wallace, Rabbit Maranville, Lou Boudreau, etc.

He was a better fielder than all of them, most of which made it into the HOF on their glove, so it only made sense he would be a HOFer too.

But Andruw Jones plays centerfield. I understand it's a pivotal position too, but it's not played by the same types of players. I don't need to go through the list of centerfielders in the HOF ahead of Andruw Jones.

I don't think he's a HOFer because he was a better fielder than them.

Numbers be damned.......Go Todd GO!!!!

I really hope he makes it this year.

I watched him play in Colorado Springs, you could tell he was not destined to be in the minors long. Someone mentioned he is an introvert. I can agree with that. But a very nice person for sure. Always made time for the fans as he walked to the dugout from the club house in the Springs.

It was also fun to watch him talk to himself in almost every at bat. You could always tell he was focused when he was hitting. We sat right behind the Sky Sox dugout so I had basically a front row seat to watch him hit and field.

I got as many autographs from him that I could. It was obvious he was not long for the minors.


So, GO TODD GO!!!!


B. T.

Disagree, i saw many bad plays and late jumps and bad reads.....some of the best amazing plays were as a result of initial bad read....of course not all the time he was a good to great fielder but i think his highlight reel makes people think he was better than he really was..... how would you compare his arm to Jones

Yeah, Edmonds falls into the Derek Jeter category. Passes the eye test...looks like a Gold Glover when you watch him everyday. Makes all the plays he's supposed to, and very few mistakes...but the analytics don't like him as much as others. Makes some plays look harder then they should be, and ends up on highlight reels in the process.

Did have some really good years in the field mixed in with some average ones.

That said, dude had an under-rated bat. .903 career OPS and a 132 OPS+.

I'd hypothesize he was kept from HOF consideration by being injured from making too many unnecessary dives in his career, and missing lots of benchmark career numbers. Played a lot of years, but missed a lot of games.

I didn’t follow Jones much, so I wouldn’t have a useful opinion on comparing him with Jim. My memory of Jones was that everyone as talking about him his first few years, and then he was just kind of around for a while. I’d say that that’s hardly an observation, except I was a fantasy baseball fanatic back in those days (starting around 2002), and I don’t recall ever thinking of Jones as a guy I wanted on my team. So maybe my comment elevates from “hardly an observation” to “unreliable anecdote.” Feel free to pass it along to any HOF voters you think might benefit from it:

As a lifelong Reds fan, I can say without a doubt that Edmonds killed the Reds infinitely more than Andruw.... both with his bat and his glove. We never gave Andruw a second thought, but Edmonds was the Babe Ruth of his time (against the Reds).

That's my incredibly scientific analysis. :rolleyes:

so many parrots wow

where are all the highlights of jeter making errors in the big games?

what he booted a ball at camden with a 7 run lead?

he bounced one to first on a partly sunny nick johnson bobblehead day?

you know you got the juice when people find any excuse to hate

haha parrots!

yeah for fantasy NL leagues as the years went on..alwasy not worth drafting because of his batting average etc. He was alwasy drafted with the mid 30 year old players past their prime or always go hurt... today analogy would be brandon belts and evan longorias..back then was like Steve Finely and Luis Gonzalez...

Ummm, I think I'm the only one that mentioned Jeter. I'm a Yankee fan and a huge Jeter fan.

Analytics don't like him defensively, even with all the Gold Gloves. Just like they don't really like Edmonds as much as his reputation says otherwise.

Nothing personal. I thought he was a great Shortstop while I was watching him play. I saw him make several plays I've never seen anyone else make. He passed the eye test with flying colors and I wouldn't have traded him for anybody during his prime with the Yanks.

Hope that clears things up...from someone else who also gets clearly irritated when others say Jeter is super over-rated, or that he was a horrible Shortstop, when he clearly wasn't. He didn't have amazing range for much of his career, but he was very workmanlike and reliable.

I've come to terms with the fact that he maybe didn't deserve all the Gold Gloves he won, but he was a solid Shortstop, whatever the analytics say about him.

Jeter was immensely overrated during his career. Then it became the narrative that Jeter was immensely overrated, which has now made him somewhat underrated because the ‘correction’ has been too extreme. Let’s throw out the eye test and accept the bad defensive analytics. He’s still a shortstop who played 20 years with a .310/.377/.440 slashline. There have been better shortstops, but only a few at most, even if one goes with his worst defensive metrics.

Anyone that says Jim Edmonds was pretty average simply doesn't understand the game. Analytics be damned, Jim Edmonds was an exceptional defensive player, period.

As far as Jones goes, red flags and fireworks go off any time any ballplayer drops off the face of the planet as badly as he did statistically. You have to ask yourself how someone that good goes that bad so quickly.

Oh, and to compare Andruw Jones to Ozzie Smith defensively is futile. Ozzie Smith is the greatest defensive player in the history of baseball at any position.

earlywynnfan, actually Biggio's 1844 runs scored is more impressive than his 3,000 hits. Only 18 players have managed to score over 1,800 runs, while there are 33 3,000 hit members.

One of the reasons Biggio scored so many runs was that he hit 668 career doubles, which is 6th all time.

He also got hit by pitches at an alarming rate--285 in his career, which is 2 behind Hughie Jennings' career best. He got hit by 34 pitches in 1997 alone, a year in which he scored 146 runs.

And he stole over 400 bases in his career.

Great Stats and Great conversations bringing those Stats to life.

The day is almost year for these years selections.

Will be close for a few and big miss for others

My guess is no one gets elected this year by the writers. From the ballot tracker stats, it doesn't look like Rolen, Helton and Wagner are flipping enough voters from last year to make up for the likely dropoff that is seen with voters who don't publicize their ballots. It looks like Helton and Wagner will both have bigger increases than Rolen but still likely all will fall short.

agreed it is going to be close.

And in a few hours we shall know.

Stay tuned

Same Bat Time...Same Bat Channel...

Scott Rolen makes it in. Todd waits until next year.

Congrats Scott.

Butch

His cards will get a a spike in pricing now

Don't see much. Never once if my life in any baseball conversation have a met a self professed huge Scott Rolen fan. Sure they exist though. Might be deserving but basically zero star power.

Guide to Scott Rolen RC's

Wagner and Helton came REALLY close. Does the addition of a few big new names next year steal votes, or do we get a big class next year.

I am underwhelmed...

Scott Rolen was a high end complimentary player and not a dominant player in his era. David Wright was an all around better player than Rolen and likewise does not belong in hall of fame. That said, with Rolen in, Wright might get there despite his career being cut short.

https://i.imgur.com/CA2qxFd.jpg

:D

Wright was a 7x All Star, 2x GG winner and two time SS winner.

Rolen was a ROY, 7x All Star, 8x GG winner and one time SS Winner

Peak WAR favors Rolen as well.

As hitters their 162 game averages are almost identical (eliminating the injury argument) and Rolen by the metrics, and also by the eye test apparently, was a better fielder by a decent margin.

I was a huge fan. He was always referred to as an old-school player, because he was a head-down get-the-job-done guy (I don't know why old-school meant that). So he wasn't a glamorous guy. But he was really fun to watch, and I would probably choose him as my top 3B of the last 30 years (Arenado is right there). He was one of those few guys that seemed bigger than the game, like everyone else was in the minor leagues. It is too bad he injured his shoulder in that collision with Choi.

Personal attacks don't win arguments. Anyway:

Top 10 MVP Finishes - Wright 4 - Rolen 1

OPS Plus - Wright 133 - Rolen 122

Seasons with OPS Plus 140 or above - Wright 5 - Rolen 1

Seasons 30/30 - Wright 1 - Rolen 0

Seasons 20/20 - Wright 1 - Rolen 0

I posted a longer version of this on 7/8/2021 in a thread about neglected HOFers....it was a list of non-steroid/HGH players at each position who had the highest percentage of votes in a given year but had not been elected (at the time). Four of these players (Hodges, Rolen, Minoso, Oliva) are now in. I have not updated it based on elections since then, but based on this year, it looks like Helton will take over at first, Sheffield in right, and Wagner, Jones, and Kent will have higher percentages. There are other changes as well (like a new left fielder)...I will try and update it fully if I get a chance.

I think Wright will end up like Mattingly and most voters will think his career was too short even though his peak was very high. It just wasn't long enough because of injuries.

Me too. Excellent player, borderline great, that's it IMO. It's telling to me that he only finished in the top ten MVP voting once, and even then he was not first on his team (Pujols) or at his position (Beltre).

Yeah, with 450+ fewer games than Rolen, and almost 1,650 fewer plate appearances, it's just too short a resume despite some really impressive peak numbers.

Still a very good player, though. We have to remember that NOT being in the 1% or 2% of players who make the Hall of Fame isn't a slight.

It was supposed to be silly, not an attack

Except Peak Wright was nowhere near as good as Peak Mattingly, and I'm ambivalent about Mattingly getting in.

HOF homework
 

I wonder if they make HOF inductees learn some history before being enshrined...like not knowing half the people that played your position in the HOF already would look better if they took the time to learn that info for example for the sense of history

Often electees will tour the Hall of Fame before induction. Not sure there's a history lesson per say, but I'm sure they learn something!

The first Cardinal I saw playing 3rd base was Ken Boyer. As a young kid I remember reading Guardian of the Hot Corner. Boyer was on the cover, in color... I was maybe 10 years old and had no idea what the Hot Corner was, but I knew Boyer played 3rd base. I still have that book. Somewhere. My point is that I've seen a bunch of people play 3rd base for the Cardinals. 60 years of Cardinal third basemen. And I remember them. I fondly remember Ken Reitz, who'd be hitting .340 in May (until the annual nose dive to .270 come summer), fielding everything in sight, and throwing ropes to first base. I liked Terry Pendleton, Ken Oberkfel, Joe Torre... I liked Todd Ziele at third, and Richie Allen did more than swing a bat, he could field and throw that long toss across the diamond. At present, the Cardinals have about the best third baseman in the game, Nolan Arenado.

Rolen was a good Cardinal the moment he spoke after the trade that landed him in St. Louis. My recollection was that he grew up in or near Evansville, IN, that's in the southern part of Indiana, across the Ohio River is Kentucky. I'd drive through Evansville on the way to St. Louis, if it was by car. Scott Rolen, moist eyed, declared that as a kid, he grew up a Cardinals fan; he dreamed of playing for the Cardinals when he grew up.

As a Cardinal, Rolen motivated his team-mates. He was a smart, solid ballplayer. He was dependable in the postseason for the Cardinals. He was a hitter who could dependably drive in runs and advance runners.

I'm ok with his election and pending induction. It's not undeserved. I recognize that Todd Helton seems deserving, too. I hope he gets in. Still, if I could sway the electorate, educate them, I'd urge them to vote in Ed Reulbach.

David Wright was a good 3rd baseman. If you look at how a player was for a career, Rolen was the better of the two. If you don't think so, look at all the numbers. Rolen hit a bit better, with fewer strikeouts. Rolen's last two seasons in Cincy hurt his averages a bit.

Mike Schmidt could crush a baseball. He walked a lot, not from a good eye, but from pitchers getting to the next batter. Schmidt struck out often. And he was a good fielder. But his batting average wasn't stellar. I don't deem him a great HOF third baseman. (I'm thinking of Joe Torre's batting title as a Cardinal third baseman at the moment, smiling.) George Kell was a great HOF third baseman. So was Brooks Robinson, and Pie Traynor. As was Boggs, Brett, and Santo. And I'll add Eddie Mathews, Chipper Jones, and even John McGraw.

David Wright? Come on now...

Agree with Frank. It's an underrepresented position and Rolen was a very good 3B both defensively and offensively. Elite all time great, no, but that's not the standard.

I have a hard time seeing a reasonable and logically consistent argument that Rolens election is somehow wrong and egregious. He comes out awfully high on 3B all time. The Hall standard is not the top 20% of its members.

I agree with Frank that Rolen deserves to be in, but I would respectfully disagree with Mike Schmidt not being a great HOFer and George Kell being one. I will take Schmidt and his 548 HRs, 3 MVPS, 8 HR titles, .908 OPS, ten gold gloves, and 106.8 WAR (first among third basemen) over George Kell and his...well, anything except his .306 batting average and ability not to strike out (WAR ranks him around 50th at third, which at least puts him ahead of Traynor). I would also take Mickey Mantle over Lloyd Waner and Johnny Bench over Ernie Lombardi. There is more to being a great HOFer than batting average and low strikeout totals.

I don't think anyone would argue that there is more to being a great HOFer than batting average and low strikeout totals. But some might argue the implication that these two items were the sum of Kell's case. Being 6th all-time in fielding percentage among 3b with over 10000 innings isn't nothing. Six top 20 MVP seasons (three top 10) and ten-time all-star is pretty good.

But I have to say, I sure would enjoy today's game a lot more if more players only struck out in 4% of their at-bats. Maybe batting average and low-strikeout totals should be enough to be a great HOFer.

I didn't see Kell play, so I am not going to argue if he is a great HOFer or not. But he is one of my favorites and a player whose cards I try to collect because I grew up listening to him do the TV broadcasts for the Tigers along with Al Kaline. Those guys were great.

I agree with you. I'm not sure how Mike Schmidt could be considered anything other than a great third baseman and HoFer. Kell may have had a higher batting average, but Schmidt still had a higher OBP thanks to walking close to 100 times a year. In his later years, Schmidt also learned to become a better hitter and saw his strikeout totals go down in his last few seasons. He also was an MVP at age 36 while Kell was retired at age 34.

Well, the HOF argument is all opinion colored by fandom colored by what stats should be most important colored by likability colored by personal memories, so everyone views it differently. In some sense it is a silly discussion for that reason. And yet, we love to argue about the HOF!

I did not mean to diminish George Kell and it's unfortunate that these arguments always come down to comparisons. I was just taking issue with the opinion that Mike Schmidt was not a "great HOF third baseman" (whatever that means) because of his low batting average and high strikeouts while George Kell was given as an example of one using that criteria.

I was basing my argument on stats I thought were more relevant but others may value higher BA and a lower strikeout rate more. I think I will stay out of these arguments from now on because if it is controversial to say that Mike Schmidt was a great HOFer in comparison to George Kell then I guess there's nothing we all can agree on.

Claiming that Mike Schmidt was not a great Hall of Fame 3rd baseman is tantamount to claiming that Willie Mays was not a great Hall of Fame centerfielder.

I don’t know, he’s no George Kell!

David Wright was a better offensive player than Rolen. Wright has the edge at OBP, SLG, OPS and OPS plus. Wright also played in much tougher home ballparks than Rolen. I can only imagine what Wright's lifetime stats would be if he played his home games in Philly for 5-6 years while in his prime. In addition, Wright had far more speed and stole nearly 200 bases before his back gave out. Just a note about Rolen's All-Star appearances, while he is tied with Wright at 7, two of his selections were highly questionable and were basically gifts - see 2005 and 2011.