I'll take folks' Speakers, Hornsby's and Ansons, just to help them out. I will even pay with the preferred US bill denomination picturing the person they are least offended by. I will vow to forever keep these items out of the view of impressionable children. I don't know if Marty Bergen ever had a real card but I'll take him too if he did.

I was at a show one time when a dealer I'd often bought from used a very specific ethnic slur to describe a certain politician. I walked away in disgust and will never, ever do business with him again. Outright public racism is a line I don't cross in business dealings.

As for players I do not collect because of morals, there are a few subjects I am not interested in having in my PC. Michael Jackson fits the bill.

I’ve had some negative dealers, but that’s a new one.

...or John Wetteland

Ben- I don't think your reason is 'beyond silly', though perhaps stubborn...and we all do that.

As far as comparing BAs from different ERAs, even short ERAs, it goes against your believe as the earlier ERA's BAs (1988-1992) were in the 250s, while the later ERA's BAs (1993-2008) were all in the 260s...except for dipping to .259 one season.

So...there...BAs from different ERAs can be used in the same argument.

Now, THAT's 'beyond silly'!

If you want to make sense on this subject with me it will NOT work. Plain and simple BLEEP Tony Gwynn and absolutely NOTHING posted will even remotely change my opinion.

I do agree that league ERA went up and so did batting averages, so what it was not even remotely close to 51 points by an over the hill guy gaining a lot of weight around the mid section. For you guys that know nothing about PEDs and only believe they make you look like Jose Canseco please remind me of that muscle bound Lance Armstrong guy.:eek::D:D:D

Definitely

...and THAT's stubborn.

...and there's nothing wrong with that.

Thank you Sir for understanding.:)

Had to google that one; wish I hadn't.

It was so very casual the way he said it that I just knew he was a frequent user of the term. White man of a certain age from a certain region of the country, not the most surprising thing that might be said, but still shocking to hear it said in public.

It's an interesting point, and I think most are looking at it too simply.

But to try and be brief...

Point for - If someone who hits a lot of fly balls gets stronger, you get more HR.
If someone hits a lot of line drives or hard ground balls gets stronger, you probably get a higher BA... Because the ball gets past the infielders more quickly.

Point against - Batting (or so I'm told) has a fairly large mental component, guessing or "knowing" what pitch is coming next. A player might just get better at that as they get older.

Midway point- speaking of getting older, not everyone ages the same. I remember all my friends complaining about aches and pains on a ski trip in our mid 30's. I had none. That stuff didn't really catch up to me until around 40, maybe even a bit later. Did Gwynn just not age and have the typical 30's aches and pains? No way of knowing, but it's possible.

Lances PEDs were not strength related, but more along the lines of assuring better oxygen usage in the body. He was supposedly helped by a complicit cycling governing body AND Nike. None of them got any punishment at all.

I have no idea if Gwynn used. Just as Boggs power rose in 1987 when the leagues power jumped, so did Gwynn’s average. Not necessarily something wrong.

Definitely one of the best hitters I’ve ever seen, all the way until the end, when he was fat and had a hard time staying in the lineup. His Topps cards maxed his weight at like 220, which seemed awfully generous. Considering that he struck out 20 times a year or so, always made contact, and was obese, his GDP are not nearly as bad as I’d have expected.

And that's just a big part of it.
I'm not aware of anything that would improve the raw hitting ability.
A 90mph fastball from a machine that's not trying to fool me is essentially invisible to me. The best I get is seeing a bit of a blurry spot halfway between me and the machine.
I suspect Gwynn could not only see a LOT more, and could choose where he made contact so the ball would more likely be in a gap instead of right to someone.

I was just pointing out that Bens idea isn't entirely insane. It hopefully isn't true.

It could just as easily be a bit of the "Boggs or Gwynn" debates popular back in the day.

I wasn’t commenting on your post, just stating I do not know and have not seen any evidence he did. If his average increase during the steroid era is evidence than he did, then so too is Boggs power tripling.

Whether he did or not, I’m not sure an odd personal hatred for a player is really under the umbrella of morals :D

I am sure you are not someone with a lot of first hand PED knowledge so you wouldn't. At least you unlike most understand there are different types of PEDs because of your Lance Armstrong response. Most like to believe all they do is make you huge like Jose Canseco. Then they don't realize the same PED works different for everyone. Ever hear of that great MLB HR hitter Ozzie Canseco?

It is a great thing but most are so clueless with PEDs they defend their heroes from the early days by saying amphetamines are like drinking a few cups of coffee. LOL, if those cups are 5 gallons each and they downed them in less than a minute then maybe.

I have still yet to hear anything that is not completely laughable to me on why or how someone could raise their batting average 51 points over a 5 year period from age 33-37. If there is even a single batter besides Tony that did that over those same 5 years please post who it was. The era went up so there has to be others besides a ageing overweight guy right.

To go to Steve and his example of him hitting a fastball. I am willing to bet if he spent some time working in the cage he would slowly get a little better. Now if we give Steve some PEDs to increase his energy, focus, and recovery time. I would bet over the exact same time period the improvements would be on a completely different level.

This is an example of what PEDs really do. Pretend you just got done doing whatever it was that was the most physical work you have ever done in your life. You are extremely tired and at that point it is even hard to think properly. Now if on PEDs you would have done the exact same thing in half the time, wouldn't be tired at all, and still mentally sharp as a tack.

They also sure seemed to help Barry Bonds hit a baseball for a much higher average during his short stint on them. Why wouldn't they do the same for Tony?

They could do the same for Tony Gwynn. 1) Is there any evidence that Gwynn did in fact use steroids? 2) What does this have to do with morals, if other players use does not stop one from collecting them?

Never said it was.:D

To be fair Wade only had that power for one year at age 29 making him at or really close to his physical peak. He didn't magically do that for 5 years in a row near the end of his career.

To make something a little clearer. I hate Tone Gwynn the ballplayer. Tony Gwynn the man outside of baseball was a great man who I respect. Silly ain't it.

I compare Boggs' big power year (weird) with that of Bert Campaneris...but not that of Brady Anderson. LOL


.

I do have minor firsthand experience with two drugs classed as PEDs, Ritalin and .... amphetamines! (adderall)
To the point that when my ADD doc asked about how the new dose went, I told her it made me feel like a Ballplayer. Then had to explain about 70's baseball and "greenies" -The capsule for that dose was in fact green.

A small dose of either isn't like a cup of coffee. And it's qualitatively different from 8 cups of coffee which was my normal work morning before treatment. (day 1 with a tiny bit of ritalin plus the usual 8 cups..... Yikes. They could have warned me. I did get a TON of work done that day. )
Both for me had a sort of diminishing effect over time.

I don't have access to a 90mph cage anymore, and haven't since the 80's but I can say that the "fast" cages still give me a lot of trouble. Those I think are around 70?
I don't know if "seeing" hours of 90mph pitches daily would help me see the ball better, but I have doubts. The problem wasn't the timing, but literally not having any idea where the ball was.

ADD and focus is a weird thing. Accelerants make focus easier and much sharper in general. And adrenaline is exactly that. things that are even mildly exciting, like getting to see a 90mph pitch. Actually help focus. (at least for me, for someone with more distractibility it may have less effect) One of the books I read said that a lot of first responders, EMTs etc have it, and ended up in professions where that adrenaline driven focus meant they could be very good.

This thread was moved from the watercooler section.
Players I won't collect? Not sure of any, haven't given it a ton of thought yet.
.

No one for me. There are plenty of living people that I find repugnant enough that I'd prefer to avoid them, but that doesn't impact which cards I buy. Probably most of the players in my collection I'd find personally objectionable if I knew enough about them. Obviously, some are worse than others, but when one stops believing in contra-causal free will, one also stops holding people morally accountable for their character.

Lebron James.

One of the first times I have seen someone win a PED debate. Great explanation!

They work for all areas of the game.

The biggest hurdle in defeating the use of PED's is because they work.

As for someone like Gwynn, someone explained above that if you hit more fly balls, then PED will have them go further and turn into more HR. If you hit more ground balls then PED use will have them hit harder and turn them into more singles/doubles. It isn't just about power. Hitting a ground ball at 90 MPH up the middle may or may not get caught by a SS. Hitting that same ball at 98 MPH will increase the chances that it will not get caught.

PED use allows you to increase your bat speed. Increased bat speed gives you a hair longer to see a pitch. Increased bat speed means the ball comes off the bat with more velocity. Those aspects most certainly can help a batting average.

Whether Gwynn did them or not I don't know.

I was on the sidelines for a long time trying to decide whether to buy any cards of the disreputable Hal Chase, but finally pulled the trigger on his T205 left ear shows, which i think is just a beautiful card. As Peter rightly says, "stuff trumps all".

Also want to add to the point above that if someone like Gwynn is not an avid weightlifter ands takes PED, it does not mean he isn't doing resistance training. Swinging a bat is resistance training. Running is resistance training. Of course calisthenics are too. They may not make your body explode in muscle mass like a more efficient weight training program, but they are going to make your muscles increase their capabilities at what they are doing.

If the person is in a set, they get collected within the set. I really only collect one player over and above a set and that is Frank Howard. I am reasonably sure I am in safe territory here.

Butch

I guess what it is for me is whether the character distracts from the item. I can't see a Michael Jackson item w/o thinking "pedo", so I am not interested in having one of his cards. I have a Woody Allen autograph and there is an 'ick' factor every time I look at it. I also stopped looking for a Bill Cosby signature for my comedians collection, though if I could get it on a roofie box...maybe.

I relish the history of the game and accept a lot of the conflict that has been seen over the generations. I love that I learn and even contemplate life when I look back upon some people that clearly have or had values that were different than mine. I would rather discuss some of the stains that our (fallen) heroes have had than to completely erase them. I can separate my childhood admiration for a phenomenal football player like OJ Simpson and the decisions that he made later in life which appear horrific. I look at Cap Anson and I appreciate the baseball player but am saddened and contemplate what might cause someone to hate others for no reason other than the color of their skin.

Baseball is a microcosm of life itself. Many of these players were put into the spotlight at a very young age because of their athleticism. Hopefully many of them learned things over the course of life like the rest of us have tried to do.

With all this being said I have no interest in collecting new cards of any athlete that thinks he or she can preach to society because they are a phenomenal athlete. Being the greatest basketball player of a given generation, does not make that players political, societal, religious etc. views important to me. I would rather listen to a group of men and women in a nursing home share their wisdom than to hear it from an entitled athlete, movie star, politician etc.

Rick Johnson

I can’t imagine making up a scenario in my mind that causes me to hate someone or something so much that I wouldn’t communicate with a friend about that thing.

That’s beyond weird.

You all will remember my Hal Chase story, and how I was thoroughly vilified. Nevertheless, when it comes to Chase, "For hate's sake, I spit my last breath at thee."

This is a fascinating thread. I don't have any specific players in my baseball collection that I specifically exclude. The people I find objectionable (Cap Anson, Josh Hamilton, Gregg Zaun, etc) played in eras I don't collect.

In a previous lifetime, when I collected hockey I refused to buy Bobby Hull singles. If I was building a set that needed one, I'd go out of my way to make his the ugliest, most beat up card I could find. It was a petty level of disrespect for a player I felt deserved it.

None for me. I don't like to judge people of the past through today's moral compass lens, even if I don't agree with their actions. What societal norms of today will be looked upon harshly in 100 years?

There are players I'm not interested in, but there is no one I would refuse to buy for moral or ethical reasons. Baseball cards and memorabilia are historical artifacts, and players are historical figures. History and historical figures include good, bad and complicated, and all people have attractive and unattractive sides.

Sometimes it is a person's bad or imperfect side that makes them fascinating.

Interesting question re OJ Simpson: CTE? Maybe we will find out some day.

What if the wackadoo claims to have PSA 5's that "identify" as PSA 8's? :D:D:D

That made me laugh way more than it should have.:D

+1

Avoiding someone entirely? Nope.

Naturally my bias for or against certain players (on and off the field, though never about political affiliations) will lead to focusing more or less on their cards. But never to the point where they affect me enough to ban someone from a collection

Because you can't afford them or what?

Trevor Bauer for me. I guess there's a chance he is innocent, and he only beat up that woman because she asked for it, but even that best case scenario doesn't make me want to grab his cards.

Sent from my SM-S906U using Tapatalk

I went to a game last summer at UCLA's Jackie Robinson Field and Bauer's portrait still decorated the outfield fence. Guess they might want to reconsider that one. Even if he didn't do anything criminal...ewww! Not a role model for the UCLA baseball program.

I would posit that one should look at the evidence, of which there was none that Bauer was guilty and considerable that the allegation was a lie, before assuming guilt but I know how this board feels about using an evidentiary basis ;)

Collecting versus buying are different things. Would I buy a Barry Bonds card? Yes. Would start a collection of Barry Bonds cards? No.

Great thread. I am glad it was moved from water cooler (where I almost never go). Adam, I agree with you 100%. I collect signed entertainment memorabilia (here is my fully signed Led Zeppelin IV album). I will not buy a Michael jackson signature. He molested children. I hate that his songs are still played on the radio and there is a smash Broadway play about him currently selling out night by night. We are so quick to cancel people for much lesser crimes/indiscretions. This piece of shit prayed on children and life goes on in popular culture.

Certain region of the country? There are racist individuals in your area, and in every region of the country I have visited. Boston is the absolute worst. San Diego ranks high as well.

I’d sell my entire collection at a 90% loss before I would own one Lebron card…..and to see an auction where his cards sell for hundreds of thousands of dollars is quite sickening…….IMHO

Be careful, Ryan, the last person that couldn't wait to read an obituary in this chatroom was Bruce Dorskind who couldn't wait to read mine.

Well we got pretty far until somebody brought it to straight up advocating violence against politicians they don’t like. And it’s the side of “tolerance”, of course :rolleyes:

Considering the previous discussion in this very thread about lynching…. Just wow.

Not sure what this means (sounds like a threat?).

I edited my original post (memorialized and quoted above) bc it’s politics talk and I should not talk politics on a baseball card site.

The threat was your post advocating lynching people you don’t like. Can’t make this shit up lol

Wasn’t talking to you. And BTW the constitution (not me) declares treason a crime and federal law states that death is a proper punishment for treason

I get your opinion of me. Its mutual. Move on

I would guess more that Bruce passed away shortly afterwards.

Yeah I’m the bad guy, because you’re pro-lynching. It’s a good sign I don’t have your approval. Make crazy violent posts, you will get replies. Duh.

I didn’t say you were the bad guy. I just don’t like you. You don’t like me. Agreed. Move on

I don’t know you whatsoever and had no opinion until you explicitly advocated lynching people for political purposes. You’re going to get a little heat for that one. Nutball murder posts usually get a little heat before the move on part.

Collecting?
 

I have held off this one for awhile, thought I'd weigh in:

1) There are players whose cards I don't want in my collection.

2) There are also people I wouldn't buy from/trade with, even if to my
advantage, because I don't care for them.

Speaking of which, be careful RHotchkiss. The first (and only) rule of
G1911 Fightclub, is that he is ALWAYS right. He just loves to play this
game of one-upmanship, while blissfully unaware he's the only one in
the contest. Enjoy your wonderful collection and forget about him, you'll
live longer:)

Trent King

Nice to see the rather negative post about politicians was edited, just because it was perhaps a bit much.

Seeing that our political discourse seems to be in a downward spiral, and wanting to not be a part of the problem, I’ve been experimenting with a different approach personally.

Naturally, there are any number of politicians that I can’t stand. Comes with the territory if it’s something that matters to you and you care deeply about. But rather than focus on everything that I really can’t stand about them, I’ve begun to focus on the things that I like about them. Sometimes it’s a short list. Sometimes it takes me a while to think long and hard until I can identify the things that I do like. But even with some that drive me nuts, I can usually find something positive to say, and celebrate those successes for our country.

I’ve found that by focusing on the positive, I’m a lot less negative about politics, and I find it’s easier to find my own zen when discussing politicians with others. Thus far, it has worked wonders when I’ve engaged in conversations with heated partisans who vehemently disagree with my own political views.

Along these lines, I’ve also stopped voting for and financially supporting politicians who insist on engaging in pandering to their base and demonizing the opposing candidate or party. Naturally, the list of candidates that make the cut is a bit shorter this way.

It may not be a panacea, but by following this approach, I feel just a little bit better about being part of the solution, rather than perpetuating and magnifying our current lack of civility in politics.

Not a threat at all. Just trying to be funny, but maybe you were not around when Bruce was on the forum? Bruce actually did say he wished to read my obituary. that even made it into a story in the New York Daily News which I'm sure could not have made Bruce happy considering his standing in the business world in NYC. He had threatened to contact a Net54 member's employer over something they had said to him on the forum. I stated my objection to that and then he wished to see me dead.

Lol. I’m wrong for my *anti-lynching* stance. The problem here is that I think my opinion of being *against lynching* is correct. This is a GREAT topic for you to hijack to your personal obsession. Excellent choice.

Did he ever sue Archive? There’s been some interesting folks here.

I appreciate the explanation, thank you!! Well, if karma gets me then that’s a trend and the rest of you will know not to use the “o” word on net54. And I have no issue with the world (beyond net54) knowing my disdain (hatred) for that person.

Anyway, sorry to get political. I will not be collecting Trump stuff bc of morals. I should have left it at that

Thanks for note Trent, much appreciated (sincerely)

Morals
 

G1911- I'm not "obsessed" with you by any definition of the term. You're the
type who needs to be backed down whenever you display internet muscles
and, frankly, it amuses me to think of you furiously typing while adjusting your
pocket protector and smelling your favorite sabermetrics book. Now then, I've
got a life, so you go ahead and fire away, sunshine:)

Trent King

........ My "internet muscles" that need to be "backed down" are, let me check my notes here, being against lynching people. Yes. Excellent choice to hijack this topic of all topics to continue your crusade and try to attack with. Keep digging.

off-center? couldn't agree more, that word should be banned.

I have a couple John Whettland Items I do not display anymore. Both are 1996 Yankee items.

For me it's just OJ.

I still cringe whenever I see one of his cards or collectibles.

Agree on OJ also…..tough dilemma as I only own one OJ card and it’s part of a set - 1970 Kellogg’s Football - just love the set - I am a set guy and have a bunch of non regular issue sets that I really love….this ‘70 set along with ‘70 Kellogg’s baseball set are two of my favorites from that era….I just make believe the card is not part of the set….

You won’t buy Michael Jackson but Led Zeppelin is ok? You are joking right?

I collect cards of athletes. I don’t care what tobacco ad is on the back of a T206. It’s the player and what they did on the field between the lines that matters to me in my collection.

Pete Rose is a schmo. We all know that OJ killed those people. Mickey Mantle was a drunk who once said that his greatest baseball thrill was getting a blow job under the bleachers. Billy Martin was a raging alcoholic. Curt Schilling may not get into the HOF for his political views, etc.

I don’t care.

Pete Rose was one of the greatest players of all time. OJ was a HOF running back. Mantle was a Yankee legend. Billy Martin was one of the greatest managers I ever saw. Schilling was a 3x WS winner with 216 wins under his belt.

I have to work with people every day with the crappiest, oh let’s just call them “personal attributes”. These are people I certainly won’t be inviting over to my house for a cookout….but I have to only concern myself with their work. I can’t judge them for their political stance, sexual preference or if they cheat on their wives.

I treat sports card collecting the same.

I don't know what you do or did for a living, but you would most certainly have been a great Navy officer. As the song lyric goes, "You've got to keep 'em separated.'

They are slightly different and one was kinda sorta accepted back then by some.

I don't see anything wrong with having any player's memorabilia in one's collection. As has already been noted, history is made up of the good and the bad. Like the majority of us here, I'm terribly fascinated by a good story, and some of the most captivating tales involve heinous exploits. It's just a part of life. By owning anything related to a player of ill repute, it doesn't make anyone a terrible individual.

Now, if you happened to love and adore a Rae Carruth or an Aaron Hernandez and had a shrine of their memorabilia solely because of their off-the-field putridity, then I'd have a problem with you.

Putting it into a prewar baseball perspective, I'd have to think that a lot of people on the forum wouldn't mind some Marty Bergen memorabilia. None of them would want to own it to glorify his atrocities. Others will jump on the 2022 tolerance bandwagon with, "He was mentally ill. It's different.". Regardless, a shadow will permanently hang over him due to what transpired, and his memorabilia will always fall into this controversial category.

Lots of people here own Connie Mack memorabilia, yet his intolerance of integrated baseball and his infamous quote regarding Jackie doesn't seem to be brought up too often.

Nice post and position on the topic....I like it....

Thank you. Been involved in public safety in one form or another for 30+ years. I’ve always been the same way.

When I was in law enforcement, I didn’t care if you were black, white, pink or purple, Republican or Democrat, gay or straight. A criminal was a criminal and a victim was a victim; everyone got treated the same, by the book.

When I was a firefighter, I didn’t stop fighting the fire if you voted for someone I didn’t like in the last election.

When I was an EMT, I didn’t stop doing CPR because your sexual preference was different than mine.

I just did my job, and I kept my personal opinions personal.

Bruce had quite a collection, but was a pretty abrasive guy at least on the interwebs.

He did make for one of the best posts ever when he threatened to sue someone over an archived post ....and that someone was him.

There are a lot of players I have no interest in collecting. I thought the whole point of collecting was to buy things you like. Why would I want to buy cards of players I dislike? Cap Anson, Ty Cobb, Curt Schilling, Ben Chapman, Draymond Green, John Rocker, the list goes on.

I do find it odd though that several people here have mentioned that they don't collect LeBron James for "moral reasons"? Really? LeBron James? I'd be curious about which character qualities it is you despise about him. Is it that he's never been caught in a cheating scandal and has been faithful to his high school sweetheart for decades? Is it because he's a wonderful loving father who is heavily engaged in their daily lives? Perhaps it's his humility and unselfishness on the court that gets under your skin? Perhaps it's the schools he built for helping underprivileged youth to get caught up in academics? Perhaps it's the level of commitment to his craft that boils your blood? After all, longevity and endurance sure is a turnoff. I mean, who wants to see a 50-year-old leading the league in scoring despite having a pass-first mentality on the court? Or maybe it's the fact that he conducts himself with honor and integrity? Perhaps you dislike well-rounded players?

That about sums up my list for why King James is intolerable.

Yikes, I just looked up what you are referencing. Well, that changes my views about Led Zeppelin.

Insightful - thanks for sharing. The power of the human brain is still a mystery despite the power of the human brain.

Insightful - thanks for sharing. The power of the human brain is still a mystery despite the power of the human brain.