No experience with that but I can only guess that cards graded by any company not among those listed in their drop down list will fall through the cracks. Good thing PSA does not have to be an expert on GAI, SCD, CSA, PRO, etc etc holders and labels too. Just as raw cards that have Set Break in the title or that are listed under different categories will not be subject to the AG.

With as many graded cards sold over the $500 level each day there is certainly a lack of people speaking about their experiences which suggests to me that the buyers are ok with the new policy.

My criticism of PSA and the absurdity of authenticating a slab and not the card in the slab is separate and distinct from this process query.

Greg there is no room for that here, apparently. You have to agree with them 100% or you are part of the problem.

This. PSA would have to be reliable and competent for it to even possibly do anything. The thousands of altered cards they miss, the PSA 8's that magically are 10's the next day, the thousand scandals and errors (if errors they all be) do not suggest serious competence.

Even if PSA were competent, they would have to look at the card to do much. PSA authenticating that SGC or GMA did slab a card doesn't do anything for a card collector.

I don't like it for raw cards either, but that's a separate debate.

My spending on eBay has been reduced about 50% (total card expidenture is on pace for 157% growth YOY but that will temper down and is spiked by a large deal) the last year as I switch more and more to private deals to dodge their 'improvements'. The destruction of their categories is far worse than this, this policy is a minor inconvenience at present as it is not charged yet. It is mostly amusing for the absurdity of the graded card policy. It may prove problematic for me on the raw front as some of my raw buys in that price range are very unusual items that I don't think CSG will even know what they are, and are often listed wrong by the seller with false information. I really don't want CSG nixing a deal, without any input from myself, and stopping me from getting a card I want at the price I agreed with the seller.

Jay,

Don't disagree at all, but I'm also including the idea of damaged slabs in this. If a slab gets damaged somehow, could someone then not question that maybe it wasn't a fake slab, but possibly a real slab that somehow got opened and had a card swapped out of it for another, and then resealed? I know the chances of that are probably minimal at best, but there's still a chance, right? Who knows, a mail carrier, or even someone at the TPG, could accidently drop/step on/crush a package or envelope holding an encapsulated card, and damage the holder. How many times here on the forum have you seen people warning others about buying cards where they detect something in the edges of the holder that look like it may have been tampered with. Cloudiness in the plastic, or whatever. Also, over the years, the TPGs all seem to have made changes and updates to their holders at one time or another. I'm assuming like you, and many others on this forum, I've probably got at least one example of each iteration of all the different holders each TPG has put out over their many years of operation, including some from TPGs no longer around. But do I know all the specific and unique differences between the holders and each TPG's different iterations, or the makeup and specific qualities of the plastic formula used in each of them so I could tell you exactly how the plastic in those holders would react and look if dropped/damaged.......NO! And probably like everyone else, I'm not about to go intentionally dropping or trying to open them without breaking the holders, just to see how they would react and what they would look like if I had accidently done so. So unless someone is a true plastics expert, and also knowledgeable in the specific ways these various TPG holders and their various iterations over all the years are sealed, and all the different ways the plastics used will react and look when and if damaged or tampered with, I'm not so sure it is that simple to find a true expert that can really tell if ALL the holders they are looking at are really tampered with or not.

Apparently. I think it's a fair question; if PSA is entering the slab verification business, whose slabs are they claiming to be knowledgeable enough to do this for? It's not a trap, eBay's statements haven't really clarified just the basic information here, which would seem desirable to both detractors and supports of the basic idea.

Appreciate the pic, it's good to see what the wrapper looks like. It doesn't look too bad to me but if you don't like it, why don't you take it off? You didn't buy it for the authentication, so just take the baggie off and toss it, you'll be no worse off.

Adam, get with the times. Today's new breed of sophisticated collector doesn't care about the card. Only the flip matters.

Besides, all cards will eventually reside in vaults. The true collector will be the one with the most spreadsheets.

I think the eBay program is a do what you're told scenario. They do not care if we understand it or like it but we do have to abide by it. If you were to call over there 10 times you would get 11 different answers.

And it seems more recently, raising a differing opinion on this thread and a few others, are not welcome without being personally attacked over those opinions.

Peter, don't disagree at all. Whomever is looking at these cards is just giving an opinion, so there is no definitive decisions being made that could potentially push back liability on the TPG or online selling platform. I'm guessing they're basically saying that if it looks like something may not be correct, we're just calling off the transaction and sending the money and cards back to their respective buyers and sellers. Not really sure what will happen otherwise if they find what they think is a fake slab/flip. The TPG doing the examining can only cancel a cert # for their own slabbed cards, they certainly don't have any say so over another TPG's slabbed cards that I'm aware of. And as someone else pointed out, canceling a cert # for a faked flip/slab then can cause an issue for the person that owns the real/legitimate card/slab. Can only imagine how happy a Registry person would be to see his/her ranking negatively affected were one of their cards to be de-certified in this manner, especially if they weren't contacted and given advance notice first. I'd love to be a fly on the wall to listen in to that exchange, were one ever to happen.

That is also why I'm guessing that if they do find what they think is an issue with a slabbed card that they will still return it to the seller. Taking and confiscating a questionable card holder, along with the card in the slab, won't go over real well with a seller if the people examining the card holder erred and there really wasn't anything wrong or questionable with the card itself.

Unless the seller somehow agreed in fine print somewhere, I think they can decertify but I don't think they can confiscate.

I am taking off the sleeve because I don't care. My point is that if I cared about it I would either (1) not be able to see the whole card, or (2) void the eBay guarantee. That is not a well-considered product.

Hi Bob,

In the past when PSA has made the claim that a fake slab was provided to them on a review, outside of the AG program, they have broken out the card from the holder, deactivated the cert and returned the card to the customer in a card saver.

I think we can be sure that PSA is not going to return a PSA slabbed card in the sealed holder to the seller if the holder or flip do not pass the authenticity test. Not sure if what they would do if that same card were in an SGC, CSG or Beckett holder.

Hopefully a situation will not occur where PSA will take the opportunity to use the "fake holder" claim to take an altered card off the market and pass the cost onto the seller rather than writing a check to buy the card back.

In the meantime I have yet to hear a single person state their graded card did not get authenticated. With people being as prolific with their social media posts I would think we would have heard something, no?

Chase

Since I don't really send anything to any TPGs, nor worry or care about a Registry, I've never looked through any TPG documents in regard to grading to see if such a clause could actually exist. But you are right, it is possible something like that is in there, in the fine print, as just another CYA on their part so they can escape any responsibility or liability for their actions.

Sounds like you agree with my thinking that they would never resort to confiscating a holder/card though, as that would go beyond the mere giving of an opinion. I can definitely see that if any TPG or online seller went that far, that they better be damn certain they're 1000% right before even thinking of doing anything like that. In that case I'm not sure how a TPG could escape liability if they were later found to have erred in their examination and opinion. And they would likely also bring the online seller under scrutiny and potential liability as well, seeing as how they were the ones requiring the third-party authentication/examination in the first place, and being the party that hired the TPG to do that work.

And even if a TPG can get away with the de-certifying of a legit card/flip due to some fine print, we both know that the real owner of the legit flip/card in those situations.....will.....be.....pissed!

Adam, I believe the point of the eBay guarantee is that you received what you paid for. I believe 'breaking the seal' would only prevent you from a return (busting chain of custody thingy).

My son, who can pick a fake sneaker out while someone is sprinting, was saved from the hassle of being ripped off by the authenticity program on a pair of relatively low end Nike. Apparently the seller had real photos and was shipping fakes.

Thanks Chase,

I did not know that is what they have done in the past. But it makes sense that they still return the card to limit any potential liability on their part should their examiners make a mistake. I still wonder if they'll do that in regard to this new authentication program though since this is something mandated by the online seller, and not necessarily being voluntarily requested by the buyer or the seller in these deals, and also potentially exposes the online seller to liability since they mandated the authentication program and hired the TPG.

And a great question if they would break out a card from some other TPG's slab because they don't think it is legit or possibly been tampered with. Like you, I have not heard of any instance where a card's slab has not passed authentication.....yet. Will be interesting to hear what they do in cases where a slabbed card does eventually get deemed as bad or tampered with, and if there is any difference in the treatment between a case where it is their own slab, or that of a different TPG.

And if there is a different treatment depending on which TPG's slab they find an issue with, then the independence question may really become an issue.

I think...I understand the purpose or intent of this but it is fraught with issues in my opinion. From my vantage point as a seller and buyer I have felt eBay did a pretty decent job of keeping the site free from fraud. I know this statement upset Steve to no end but this has been my experience.

eBay has had a tendency to try to fix things that were never broken. Obviously from their vantage point the AG is serving some purpose. Maybe there was a lot more fraud than we know of. I would prefer to see eBay and all the grading companies working to remove the massive volume of altered cards before they put time and effort into checking to see if my recently graded CSG card was really holdered by them. Just saying...

In 24 years of heavy buying on ebay, there was a total of ONE occasion on which someone sent me something other than what I bought. It was not an item the guarantee would apply to, and in any event I got my money back within one day. I have to believe my experience is typical of buyers in the card space. Are they REALLY saving us from anything nontrivial? Sure, you can posit the box of rocks hypothetical, but how often does that really happen? I don't think a program this disruptive can be justified by a once in a blue moon type of fraud.

LOL

I hear you. There is no perfect answer that covers everyone's questions and issues 100%. Ebay obviously had/has some intention(s) in mind when proposing and implementing this new program, but they have not seen fit to share that with everyone that uses their platform, so the best we all can do is guess as to what their true and ultimate intentions are.

This. I have been buying on eBay for 21 years. I have never once been scammed or defrauded. By applying the most basic of common sense, I've mostly avoided it. As a buyer, that eBay sides with me 100% no matter what for several weeks after a card is delivered leaves essentially no room to get defrauded anyways (which has only happened a couple times, and by big name sellers). Even if I bought a fake or the seller sent a fake instead of a legit card pictured, it doesn't really matter. I return it, eBay pays the shipping, and then eBay forces the seller to refund me.

Having every single card (or slab, they won't even review the actual card the time, which should maybe signal that this isn't about cards at all anymore) of value go through this review cannot possibly be cheaper than the old policy. Nor does it actually afford greater protection. I know this apparently sends some members into rages, but oh well.

FWIW, the seller pays for return shipping.

Must be one of those situations that is on a need to know basis and clearly we do not need to know.

Thank you for correcting. So it costs eBay $0 and gives the buyer a full refund on anything.

Ain't it the truth.....ain't it the truth? LOL

It is no shock that some people love the AG program. They do not have to use common sense when buying on eBay, take the time to educate themselves or take steps to vet their sellers and instead pass that responsibility onto someone else. All the while they can maintain the illusion that the card they bought, which might be altered, is 100% legit. Ya gotta love it.

I'm against it, but I see why others might like the raw card version. I do not understand getting triggered over encountering posts that think authenticating slabs is silly.

Generally speaking, yes. There are time limits, though. Ungraded trading cards have the shortest return window, if I'm not mistaken. Last time I checked, it was three days (if the seller doesn't offer returns) from confirmed receipt of the item.

This was put into place on the heels of Topps Project 2020. When values cratered, buyers were intentionally damaging cards and forcing returns weeks later.

It makes sense on another front, too. If an active player suffers an injury, the seller shouldn't be forced to give a refund and take the item back.

Agreed.

Sadly I do understand it. Sign of the times. The hobby is not immune.

That is the literal opposite of how eBay suggests using the service: "Your card comes in custom packaging that can be folded into a stand‑perfect for highlighting the newest add to your collection." if the only purpose of it was confirmation, they'd not bother with the fancy display packaging for the card. Speaking of which, the "padfolio" (eBay's word for it) is ugly as heck and doesn't stay in place for display. I tested it.

Again, I don't think it is a bad thing per se with raw cards, just really, really silly for slabbed cards.

Bad news sells. There are thousands of transactions that are problematic. We hear about them and repeat them. At the same time we ignore the millions of transactions that occur without a hitch. You can apply that to any 'issue' that might arise in any part of life.

But if it can save only one child...

Completely missed in all of this is how the eBay program protects sellers against specious claims. In the past few years I've had a half dozen of so sellers come back to me (usually modern cards) and ask for some bullshit partial refund for a scratch on a case that supposedly wasn't apparent or some other nonsense. The level of stupidity is off the chart. How about "card doesn't seem as sharp as it did in the picture. How about a $50 refund." And if you don't give in to them they slam you with lousy feedback and you are off to the races with eBay dealing with that. I haven't read all the fine print, but would hope some of this nonsense could be eliminated with the new eBay system.

I would be surprised if it would foreclose the not as described type of claims, other than a claim by the buyer he received a completely different item.

I just bought a $600 raw card from Greg Morris on ebay. But it didn't need to be sent for authentication. Does GM have a deal with ebay to avoid this?

Sent from my SM-G9900 using Tapatalk

Listing Title ? Category ?
 

Often they auction things and use the phrase " Set Break" in the listing..... ?? possibly the new rule is only for single cards ?

..

I would trust Greg Morris as much as CSG. Not that anyone is perfect.

The scams pulled off or attempted here are an entirely different situation than most of the ones on Ebay.

Sending to PSA or CSG is only intended to catch items that are not authentic or not what they are claimed to be.
They wouldn't preclude a scam where the item is never actually shipped and the seller vanishes.

In the case of bad cards, I believe it's up to the buyer to have some idea what they're buying and some ability to tell if it's real.
PSA themselves don't have as much ability to spot alterations as they claim, and I wouldn't expect CSG to be better because they're new.

I've bought a handful of fake or altered cards over 40+ years. All but one I suspected were fake or knew for sure it was altered/fake. The only one that fooled me was the first, when I'd been collecting more seriously for less than a year.
My own knowledge is the first line of defense, That applies to all my hobbies.
And I believe it should apply even more as the items become more expensive.

Not having that knowledge is, at least to me irresponsible.
Like saying "I don't need to worry about riptides despite the warnings! They have lifeguards."

I could be wrong, but I believe that Greg Morris and perhaps one other well respected large seller had an exception from this program from the very beginning.

….and with Greg Morris you have the liberty of holding it in your hand before you decide to keep it.

Awesome! The buy on approval approach. Love it. Anyway up until this AG program, in almost all instances a buyer had the right to return for a refund.

LOL, I should have said the 'essence' of the guarantee.

I would love to see pics of someone's shelf display of their prized padfolios! :D:D

I wonder where customer satisfaction figures into Ebay's business model, if at all. Here is a service, the majority here thinks is unnecessary, that is being forced upon buyers who really don't want all the hideous bells and whistles. All they want is their precious piece of cardboard.
the licensing agreement with CSG stinks and is clearly a conflict of interest for Ebay.

Jim, I'm sure someone somewhere has a shelf of these uggo padfolios proudly displayed. Perhaps next to the Franklin Mint Liberace plate?

And for the next bit of overkill I am now seeing 'otter boxes' for slabs

https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/5bsAA...xp/s-l1600.png

Encase your card in a PSA coffin, wrap the sarcophagus in a sleeve, then put it in one of these cases. And then undoubtedly into a padded carrying case. :eek:

Better still, into a vault.

I actually don't hate the concept on those "grade guard" cases. The colors are terrible but I don't hate the concept.

Not giving buyers the option to bypass this authentication step is the part I dislike. I don't need help determining if a card or slab is authentic or not.

That was my point early on. Glad they are offering it to those who need it. At the risk of infuriating Sanpolit1 again, I don't need CSG's opinion on an ungraded card and I certainly do not need PSA's opinion on a slab's authenticity.

Especially one from its rivals...For that matter, I don't need CSG's opinion on a card it doesn't grade. That's like asking a homeless guy for interior decorating tips.

They go to CSG, which does not know its A from its elbow. I just had THREE cards rejected as altered, when none were, and SGC graded them all with numerical grades. It is a nightmare for sellers. Fine for buyers, I guess, other than if cards get rejected them and they actually wanted them.

For some reason I thought raw cards went to CSG and graded went to PSA.

This is exactly how it works.

Out by me I see some super creative stuff so...

I don't buy raw cards on eBay very often, so I couldn't care less.

Realize my life would be a lot easier here if I knew everything like you guys and just consistently complained about everything. I could complain Ebay is not doing anything on fraud. Then I could complain that they are trying to do something on fraud but it's a hassle. Again, just like the larger political environment we are all dealing with. Complain politician is doing nothing about problem A. Outrageous that he hasn't spoken about this issue. Then complain politician's proposal on problem A is woefully inadequate. Then when politician changes proposed problem rip him or her for taking so long to deal with it. And then complain that problem really doesn't have to be addressed in first place. And then slam cost of trying to deal with problem. Whatever the move is just complain.


It's a cool system. Just complain about everything.

The irony.

Zactly...not sure anyone has started more threads for the single purpose of complaining.

Lol. On a board where senior citizens complain that Shohei Ohtani is getting too much attention.

Oh there definitely is.:D

Are you okay?

I am told that all a seller has to do is use the magic words set break and the guarantee won't apply. What a joke.

Does that mean that if I buy a PSA graded card on Ebay, it goes back to PSA for further evaluation with presumably PSA receiving compensation for their work? If so, this double dipping at its' best and irritation for the buyer.

Yes, if it's over the value threshold, any single graded card not sold by a couple specific sellers goes to PSA to authenticate the slab, but not the card inside. It seems to encompass CSG, SGC, Beckett and PSA slabs that PSA has to give an approval on, possibly more but the policy is really vague. The slab authentication double dip is the part I think is getting into comical territory.

Buy card. Get it slabbed. Put it in a sleeve to protect the slab. Have PSA validate the slab is real. Put an otter box case on the slab to further protect the slab. Get a purple sticker put on the slab.

It is a significant contribution to the anti-fraud effort and a great thing for the hobby. Feel good about it!!

Thank you for reminding me, I wouldn't want to be one of those old know-it-alls who complains about everything and thinks Shohei Ohtani sucks. I love these new developments. Now that my plastic slab is secured by several layers of protection, both physical protection and mind-easing sticker validation, I can sleep secured that my slabs are authentic and in the stated condition. Because PSA would never lie or cheat. I can trust them, and my slab. I came here to collect cardboard pictures of other men, but I stayed for the clear plastic in otterboxes.

He loved Big Brother.

BTW, are those lovely blue folders recyclable, does anyone know? I would prefer to do something useful with them.

I don't know everything about everything. But if I was going to spend a few thousand on something I'd darn sure learn enough about it to trust my own opinion first instead of just blindly spending. Or putting all my trust in a company that's often wrong. Or one that has less experience than I do by a few decades...

So I don't buy expensive autographs, but I do get some educational entertainment from the "is this ok" threads in that section. I try to guess if it is, then read to see if I'm right.

Based on my (admittedly tiny) sample of orders, I think the eBay authenticating gig may be adversely affecting CSG's service. I've had an express (7 business day) order sitting there for 12 business days and counting.

Yeah I honestly cannot see how both PSA and CSG could not be adversely impacted (at some level) by their respective programs given the sheer volume of cards that have to be coming in.

Could see the impact on CSG being far greater than PSA because CSG actually has to have a grader look at the raw cards.

Almost certainly so because CSG has to actually do something and evaluate the item, whereas PSA has to glance at it for 2 seconds and go “yeah that’s a slab”.

They also have to assemble the nifty authentication kit and I am sure do some data entry, not to mention packaging it up and mailing. I wonder how many cards are coming into PSA a day now for this purpose.

As a starting point:

eBay sold listings go back 3 months.

In the Trading Card Singles category there are 138,178 sold listings, with a price over $500.

Of these, 78,981 have a grader assigned to the listing.

78,981 / 90 = 876.566 per day average.

I would love to know how many of those 78K slabs they have rejected. None maybe?

I’d be surprised if it’s more than 50 for the entire year, personally. I doubt any data will ever be given.

Ironically that is the same time spent on grading. "Yeah that's an ___." I kid...sort of.

Okay, so I just got an email from Ebay saying:

You collect. We protect
Say hello to the eBay vault, our 31,000 square foot state-of-the-art secure facility.

Here's the link:
https://usg01.safelinks.protection.o...%3D&reserved=0

This mock up of a secured vault looks like the setting of a heist movie more than a card storage facility.

Call me a skeptic, but I don't think that's what their vault actually looks like.

Nah, I'm sure this is an actual photo and every single card is given a couple feet of wall space for display.

LOL, I'm going to send them all my PSA 6 Steve Sax rookies, and then ask for a screenshot of how they're stored in the "vault".

I expect to have approximately 80 Square foot of real estate in that baby.

Will you still have to pay the tax on your purchase if you put your cards into the Ebay vault? That was supposed to be an advantage of one of the other vault storage facilities, right? As long as your purchase was delivered to the address of the vault you could avoid being taxed.

Seriously, I read the terms to the Ebay vault thingy they put out a couple months ago...and I couldn't figure out a single upside to it, that others weren't doing better already.

I understand the purpose of a couple of the other "Vault" programs...but if Ebay is trying to compete with them, they're doing it very poorly.

They have to be resting their laurels on the fact they have such a large presence, that less informed collectors/sellers/buyers don't even know about their competition in that area.

I believe that was one of the only upsides If I remember correctly...but there was a bunch of other possible fees you could accrue, that the other fellas didn't have.