I missed that one. Not sure I would have gone that high but yeah, quite a card. What do you like for Verstappen? Anything earlier than 2020?

I think the card to have for Verstappen is far and away the 2020 Topps Chrome Card No. 6, either the standard portrait or the short-printed image variation. Cards 1-20 of the 20 drivers from the 2020 Chrome set have already become iconic. The Verstappen stuff from before 2020 are game cards, which I don't think will ever be too in demand.

Don't worry about the other million or so Verstappen cards Topps has produced since 2020. Card No. 6 is the one you want. Of course, there are all kinds of parallels with different print runs. But even the basic refractor from 2020 Chrome has a print run of about 1,100, which isn't outrageous for a worldwide sport.

If you are looking to prospect on F1, another guy to keep in mind is Oscar Piastri. His cards aren't dirt cheap, but he is probably the biggest coming star. He was F3 champion and F2 champion in back to back years. It is crazy that he was merely a reserve driver this year with that resume, but he will almost certainly be in F1 next year (probably with Alpine).

Thanks I'll probably grab a base card of Max just for the hell of it.

Not sure why the 2016 Top Trumps Verstappen doesn't rate. I'm obviously a fan of the game cards, but F1 cards didn't magically appear on the scene when Topps decided to start printing them.

I guess I'd compare them to all the STAR cards that came out in Basketball before the 1986 Fleers, except there's no counterfeit for reprint issues to worry about.

Not saying it because I have a stack of them either. I've got exactly one from a set I picked up awhile back, and the Verstappen ended up being the worst conditioned card in the deck. :mad:

Still haven't picked up a 2009 Hamilton Top Trumps either, though I do like that card also.

Not sure that's a fair comparison. The Star are clearly conventional basketball cards, just issued differently. The game cards seem more like novelty items to me.

Difference of opinion I guess. I'm surprised you have this stance, considering all of the oddball and foreign issues you specialize in and collect.

All cards are novelty items IMO. They are produced and distributed in many different ways.

Neither were issued in traditional random packs. Both were issued in complete set or team set form in the case of the Star Cards.

I'd argue the Game cards are a more conventional issue, especially the way they were distributed.

Most of the Formula 1 game sets were available to the general public in one country or another in various hobby shops, toy stores, department stores, etc...

They were/are much more accessible then the Star Co. stuff, which consisted of a dealer network of about a 1/2 dozen guys in the hobby, who then sold them through SCD, at random card shows, etc...

I was involved in the show circuit at the time when those were out or coming out...and not sure anybody considered any of the Star product line, including all those Jose Canseco, Will Clark, Don Mattingly, Daryl Strawberry, etc....sets, very conventional at all.

I don't think the STAR card analogy works; the comparison that does work is the Fan Craze/National Game/Tom Barker game cards for baseball. There will always be some interest in those cards, just as there is for game cards in F1. But there is a reason people suggest cards like National Game and Tom Barker for cheap playing days cards of Ty Cobb and Shoeless Joe Jackson. The interest just isn't there to drive prices higher for the game cards.

Dave, to be clear I was not critical at all of the game cards and I love oddball, I was just quibbling with the analogy to Star basketball.

Guys....... I'm loving this thread and your knowledge of the international racing sets/cards. I'm more of a vintage baseball card collector, but I've always been an open wheel fan and my 13 year old son has developed the same interest. We bought a couple F1 boxes this year without much success, unfortunately, but the cards are awesome. As cool as the Topps F1 sets are, I don't mind the older Hamilton and Verstappen 'game cards' as they're something earlier to collect of each driver. I haven't pulled the trigger on anything yet, but I have a feeling it's going to start costing me some $$$ very soon.

Fair enough guys. I still don't understand the allegiance to Topps over all the producers of F1 cards that came before them..."game cards" or not, especially since most of these cards were distributed where F1 was actually followed the most at the time, but I won't belabor the point.

Like Peter, I also meant no disrespect at all. Any kind of discussion of racing cards is good; just a different way of looking at what each of us would like in our collection. :)

I often prefer the earlier card/collectible over the mainstream rookie, but in the case of Lewis Hamilton (lol not being in a position to buy a million dollar 2006 Futuera) I just couldn't pull the trigger on the Top Trumps or SIFK with the car on front.

None taken Eddie. It's all good. :)

2008 Ravensburger
 

Just stumbled across this on Ebay. (Not mine, and I don't have one)

https://www.ebay.com/itm/39418410886...YAAOSwZBBi5bxk


Based on the numbering, this looks like an actual 2008 issue. Earliest German Ravensburger I have seen. I understand why others won't like them because of the repeat designs but they are a legitimate retail issue, and as Popeye says..."They am, what they am!"

;)

How would you like to be the guy who dropped $312,000 on a 2006 Lewis Hamilton Futera card a few months ago, only to have his 2005 F3 card from Formule surface at action this month? I knew that card existed, but had never seen one for sale before.

https://goldin.co/item/2005-formule-...-none-lowlrkqt

I am not much of a fan of magazine cards, but $12,000 (and only three bids) right now for that card just seems way cheap compared to what his Futera card sold for a few months ago.

On a similar note, more Hamilton Futera cards are now coming out of the woodwork. I had not seen one for sale for years, but the current Goldin auction has two more up for bid.

Did Goldin represent the Futuera was his first card? If I were the buyer of the first one I would not be happy, even more so with the others now up for auction, although Goldin could not help that unless it already had them lined up.

I would have to go back and look at that auction, but a lot of the hobby believed the 2006 Futera card was his first card. Even the F1 groups I am a member of on Facebook have long had people discussing the Futera card as Hamilton's true rookie.

I did not even know the 2005 Formule card existed until there was a discussion in one of the Facebook groups about it a few months ago.

Interesting. I don't think I was aware that card even existed.

I was wondering when more Futera's would come out. They are not common, but I'm pretty sure they had a reasonable print-run.

So far it appears Hamilton's 1st known appearances in Cards goes as follows:

Formula 3 Series - 2005 Formule (Czech publication)

Formula 2 Series - 2006 Futera

Formula 1 Series - 2007 Formule (thanks Eddie S.), 2008 Formule, 2008 Ravensbuger "Pole Position" Game card ;), 2009 SI For Kids Card, 2009 Top Trumps Card, Whatever 2020 Topps card you want to add to this list (Pick your poison)

I think there's another one in there, that gives even me the willies, that I'm not listing. :)

Goldin did bill the $312,000 Hamilton Futera card as a "rookie card."

https://goldin.co/item/2006-futera-g...-mint-9-pj71md

Technically, in modern sports card collecting, it would be a "Pre-Rookie" card, I believe.

It's the collectors I think that ultimately decide which ones they prefer, and which ones go for the highest premiums. "Rookie" is just a word, and everybody decides for themselves what it means to them.

How many Topps Lewis Hamilton cards have the word "Rookie" next to it, when you go on Ebay? Hundreds.....

He also has a 2007 card from the Formule magazine in which he is labeled as an "F1" driver.

https://www.tcdb.com/GalleryP.cfm/pi...Lewis-Hamilton

Ah, good to know. Looks like he also had a 2008 issue from them.

Wish I knew enough to start hoarding Czech magazine inserts, 10 years ago or so.

One of the 2008 Formule Hamilton cards sold at auction on eBay for around $800 maybe six months ago. There was also another 2008 Hamilton Formule listed for various prices between $500-1,000 as a BIN shortly after that, but I have not looked in a while to see if it is still listed.

Not a card but close enough from the mid 70's of the Super Swede

Went the safe route on Verstappen.

Just got these back from SGC. I thought they really nailed me on the centering and the typical for this issue print bleed at the top, for the Senna portrait, while I thought they would hit me harder for the black borders on the Verstappen.

I have always liked the Senna portrait from that set. That is such a neat image. I know the card is not rare, but it is so cheap compared to some of the other early Senna cards/stickers with an image that isn't great.

On another topic, some of the Goldin results seemed really strong to me. I was shocked by $1,440 by the Nico Rosberg Futera card. Rosberg only has one world title and does not have a huge collector base, so that price surprised me.

https://goldin.co/item/2006-futera-g...needs-psanj6rx

Also, the $3,120 for the Senna signed program seemed very strong. Given the choice, I would rather have a signed card or photo.

https://goldin.co/item/ayrton-senna-...ogram-jsai3fh9

Yeah, it's a pretty good shot.

I thought this 1984 Senna panel in the Goldin auction was interesting. I haven't seen one in that strong condition before.

https://goldin.co/item/1984-panini-f...okie-cardi9syo

Early Lewis...
 

Guys..........I picked up this Lewis Hamilton team promo card from 2007 today at a local card show. I would grade it about VG-EX and the price was reasonable. I can't find the exact issue when searching online, but found a couple similar ones. It measures 8.25"x almost 4". Does anyone have any more info on this issue? Thanks in advance........Matt

That's a neat card. I think a lot of card collectors ignore the racing team promo cards, ad cards and postcard type releases...I know I'm guilty of this for the most part, but a part of me thinks I should expand my search a bit and make things a little more interesting.

It's not a Lampo but it's not bad.

The '66 Panini is a great image of Clark, and it is still accessible at a reasonable price.

Here are a couple recent pick ups. I love the obscure and different. This Hamilton card from the 2022 Topps Industry Conference seems really cheap for a Hamilton card with only around 60 examples produced.

I also picked up this 1946 Omnia Sport rookie of Alberto Ascari. The card is paper thin and very tiny, noticeably smaller than a T206 or most tobacco cards. But there are not a whole lot of options for early Ascari cards. He was 1952 and '53 Formula 1 champion, then was killed in 1955 testing at Monza on a day he was not even scheduled to be in a racecar.

Here are a couple more of my pick ups that I had not scanned until today:

I like this 1988 Panini image of Ayrton Senna because it is an early Senna sticker and the price is still reasonable.

I will never get the David Brown Brown card from the T227 set, but the Ralph Mulford card is still cool. There are still people that contend Mulford actually won the inaugural Indy 500 in 1911. Scoring was a complete debacle that day and Mulford was forever credited with finishing second to Ray Harroun.

Interesting tidbit from that race: Harroun and Mulford finished first and second that day and were also the last two drivers from the inaugural Indy 500 to die. Harroun died at age 89 in 1968 and Mulford died at age 88 in 1973.

I have noticed that the 2009 Top Trumps Hamilton keeps getting cheaper, and the 2009 SI for Kids keeps getting pricier. What's up with that, supply? The 2020 cards are great, but being a RC collector, I think I need to get something I can call a rookie.

Both of those cards seem fairly accessible on eBay at any given time, so I am not sure if supply is the reason. I guess if I had to choose between those two options, I would go with the Top Trumps card. The image of Hamilton is not great, but I dislike the SIFK card being a car shot with just a tiny image of Hamilton on the back.

You are right, though, some of those raw Top Trumps Hamilton cards can be had for next to nothing.

Neither is a great card, that's for sure.

Went with the SIFK. Just can't deal with that TT pic.

Ah, yes, the familiar Hobson's Choice of early Hamilton cards. ;)

I did not realize Clark had a card from 1962 but there is one in PWCC now. A pinhead shot for sure.

I was aware that Clark had a card in that PetPro set. The entire set is action shots and does feature some drivers with few to no other cards, but I have always been lukewarm on the set because the cards are so small and are action shots.

In the last couple months, I have also seen several of Clark's 1965 Perfetti candy cards show up; they are pretty tough.

I don't really think I am "outing" the following auction to a whole lot of people by mentioning it here, but I am kind of surprised by this 1951 Alberto Ascari card currently at nearly $300 on eBay. I was not even previously familiar with this card, but he does have some earlier cards that sell for less money.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/403950616638

Verstappen
 

Seen these Max Verstappen German Top Trumps dated as 2016 by SGC. I appreciate that SGC is grading these non-English issues, but wish they put a little more research into the dating.

The pose and the text (in German) is the same as the 2016 English Top Trumps that is accepted as his Rookie card, but the overall design, and the stats on the front are different.

Stats match what they would be after the 2016 season ended at the end of November 2016...so unless they pumped this set out immediately in December of 2016, this is a 2017 set...and not a Verstappen Rookie year card.

I still like the card, it's likely scarcer then the English language one, and the last one I saw went for what seemed like a bargain to me on Ebay, even as a 2nd year card...though one a few weeks earlier went for considerably more...so maybe collectors are wise to this issue already.

https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/06YAA...gb/s-l1600.jpg


https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/O9YAA...gb/s-l1600.jpg

Also seems like Verstappen's first Top Trumps card is outselling Hamilton's...by like...a lot.

Maybe it's a supply issue, but there's definitely a recency bias going on...I guess, just like baseball/basketball/football prospects and younger stars.

He looks absolutely dominant, but he still has only half as many titles as Vettel.

I know it is a fool's errand to try to predict how a guy's career will ultimately play out. But with the schedule being 23-24 races for the foreseeable future, there is realistic chance that Verstappen's career numbers will be right there with Hamilton and Schumacher by the time he is done.

The other thing is, Hamilton does have some other early options for cards that have talked about before in this thread. :)

Finally found a Jackie Stewart. Not a great card due to the pose, but if you have to have the rookie.

Some unopened packs I've restrained myself from opening up (so far).

#1. 1980 Panini "F1 -Grand Prix" packs. Not as glamourous as the mid-80's sets (ie. no Senna), but still very neat.

#2. 1984 Galp Energy "Formula 1 - Grand Prix" packs. Portuguese issue similar to Panini's

Notable in that this contains a very early Ayrton Senna card on the Toleman team. I believe the earliest card of him in a released set that just features him and not his car or part of a perforated panel with another driver.

Example (not mine):

https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/x7QAA...HA/s-l1600.jpg

My favorite Fangio card
 

Issued in Argentina

I haven't looked lately, but there was a Galp Senna with a big BIN on eBay for a long time. WIth how much early Senna stickers have taken off over the past year or two, I wonder what that would go for in an auction.

Very cool 1948 Fangio. There are not a whole lot of great options when it comes to early Fangio, Ascari and Farina cards. We discussed the 1958 SADA earlier in the thread. The SADA has a neat image of Fangio. But yours is much earlier, of course. :)

The one I pictured is the one on EBay.

Andretti RC
 

I've been interested in picking up an Andretti RC for quite awhile and recently couldn't pass this one up.

Nice pick up, Matt. Like a lot of cards, the 1969 Panini Andretti has come down in price in recent months. I think a PSA 7 Mario rookie is a great hold long term.

I am excited to pick up this 1994 Futera Ayrton Senna tribute card. I have wanted one for a while, but they almost never show up anymore. The card is numbered to 500, but they were only released in Australia (AFAIK). I picked it up from an Australian seller on eBay who said he had the card since its release.

I also like the biography of Senna on the back of the card.

I don't think I've ever seen this before.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/37454774256...QAAOSwOuRj8opl

Eddie S. mentioned it earlier in the thread. Looks like it's a Czech magazine insert issue from his time in Formula 3, I believe.

Ah I missed it before. The seller is Czech so that makes sense. At that price I'll content myself with my lowly SIFK.

That card is quite a "bargain." Goldin sold an SGC 8 of Hamilton's F3 card for $16,800 last November. An eBay BIN price should be at least double from a five-month old auction house price. ;)

https://goldin.co/item/2005-formule-...c-nm-mt-8y39mp

I actually got caught in a meeting at work and forgot this auction was ending. Looked like a pretty cool set, I hadn’t even seen the Andretti rookie with coupons attached. Seemed like a pretty good price, too. I’m a little upset I forgot about it.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/16602073651...p2047675.l2557

Nice looking set. I did not know these were issued in this format.

If legit, it looks like somebody got a great price.

A little part of me though, does have a funny feeling about the legitimacy of the set in this form, and if it might not be contemporary to the original Panini stickers of the same set.

I didn't see this auction until Scott posted the link, but I am with you. I would not have bid on this because I just don't know enough about the legitimacy. Maybe the set was legit, but there didn't seem to be a lot of people who thought so. The auction started at $1 and only had three different bidders. Even a beat up Andretti rookie sticker by itself would attract more action starting at a dollar.

i don't know either, but those just look too clean and gem mint for my liking.

There's a Perforated one in an SGC holder on Ebay, but it just doesn't look right to me.

Might be a legitimate commemorative or reprint issue from Panini, but I doubt it's from 1969/70.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/12549724342...Bk9SR9jvr_zyYQ

I think the albums had an ad sheet that included 2(?) sample cards.

and here's one that PSA Graded. Just weird I've never noticed these until very recently.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/12557502456...Cclp%3A2047675

PSA didn't even differentiate it lol.

Yeah, that's what it looks like according to the text on the tabs. Question is, were they issued in the 69/70 album, or are they commemoratives issued in a more recent album?

Issued/inserted in the original albums.

I don't think the reprint sets/albums included something similar.

Here's an example

This isn't the first time a Prost rookie sticker has been posted in this thread, but here is a recent pick up for me. Prost is destined to be forever "undervalued," given his resume. I picked this up for under $60. That just seems crazy for the rookie sticker of a four-time F1 champion.

Nice pick-up. I thought I saw Prost cards finally starting to pick up some steam a little while back, but maybe that was short lasting.

I think F1 cards in general are starting to come back down to earth. The 2009 Top Trumps Hamilton seems to be trading at a fraction of the price it did a year or two ago.

I don't really play around with any of the newer Topps releases outside of the cheaper Match Attax cards, so maybe the newer shinier stuff is still getting lots of interest, but the vintage stuff seems to be definitely on the way back down.

The Topps F1 cards have crashed in price, even Hamilton's stuff. Guys like Charles LeClerc and Lando Norris, whose careers were on a much more upward trajectory a year or two ago, have really fallen off a cliff.

How would you like to be holding some high-end Mick Schumacher these days? :eek:

Any Marlboro driver, especially Penske, is my favorite. Nice Prost.

Sent from my SM-G9900 using Tapatalk

Thank you. :)

I think I have a 20 count lot of Mick's 1st Topps Now F1 Card (not his 1st F2 card) laying around here somewhere.

At $4.95 apiece, I paid waaay too much for them LOL!

:D

Thought he had a lot of potential, but he really regressed last year. Didn't anticipate he wouldn't even have a car this year. Maybe a couple more years getting seasoning as a reserve driver, and he'll be back at it again.

2020 f1
 

My son and I are collecting the 2020 Topps Chrome Refractor driver portrait cards in PSA 10. We started our quest last fall and I think we have 12 of the 20 so far. Yes, the Hamilton has really dropped from the $4-5k peak it hit in late 2021, but it still brings roughly $1200-1400 now. I'm really ok with this, as we haven't bought one yet.

I think at some point, he will get another place on the F1 grid. But his Topps Chrome and Sapphire was on fire for a while. Some of his stuff looks like it's down 60-70 percent from a year ago.

Great. Always good to see more collectors of racing cards. :)

Where do you guys rank Stirling Moss?

He is almost universally regarded as the best driver never to win an F1 world championship. From 1955-61, he was never lower than third in the points standings. In addition, his sportsmanship gave Mike Hawthorn the 1958 championship.

From a collector's standpoint, though, I think it is hard to get excited about him or feel that he is a must have in a collection because he never won a championship. Moss had a better overall career than F1 champions like Hawthorn, Phil Hill, Denny Hulme and Keke Rosberg, but not winning the championship at least once really hurts Moss' place in the history of the sport, IMO.

As a collector, I would rather put together a card of every F1 world champion, even the weak ones, before a card of Moss.

Thanks, that makes sense.