I’m not a big autograph collector. But I’ve always been amazed by experts who profess expertise on multiple players autographs. I have around 150 total and all of those were obtained in person with the exception of my Roberto Clementes and a couple signed game used bats and about half of my 1971 Pirates autographs. Thirty years ago the first Clemente I bought was a Dorsey and didn’t realize it for many years. When I was informed that it was a Dorsey by a Clemente expert I learned everything I could about both Dorsey and Clemente autographs. While working at the Clemente Museum I’ve been exposed to 100s of Clemente. Now I have minimal fear of buying a free range Clemente as long as its an example signed in the late 60s to early 70s. However I will still occasionally ask others for their opinions if I’m not absolutely certain. I don’t know enough to risk buying his earlier or rushed signatures. I can attest that there are many Clemente forgeries out there. I’ve even seen a couple of Dorseys in slabs as well.

A local card store reached out to me early last year and asked me to look at 5 4X6 autographed team issued Clemente publicity photos that they were consigning. I told them only one of them was good. The owner claimed he got all of them in person as a child. He was indignant and asked me how I could be so sure of myself. They all wanted to know what made me an “expert”. I told them I wasn’t claiming to be an expert. I reminded them that they called me for my free opinion and that’s all I was giving them. I then told them I was confident enough to offer 3K for the one that was good. It was a gorgeous example. They declined my offer and decided to use JSA. JSA told them exactly the same thing I did 4 Dorseys and one Roberto. In the end I purchased the real one. I also offered to buy the fakes to have reference material in my collection. They wanted $300 for them I passed. I later saw that they sold them with the disclaimer that they couldn’t verify authenticity. They didn’t volunteer that JSA had rejected them. They knew they weren’t real and should have simply removed them from circulation. Since then I’ve seen two of them listed on eBay for several thousand. Dealers like that hurt the hobby almost as bad as forgers.

Thanks, Kevin.

One last question: If they're pulled from packs, in what form are they certified?

The certified autographed cards have special markings (indented seals, gold foil markings, etc.) or completely different printed backs that say something like "Congratulations! You have just received a personally autographed card of (insert player name)..."

The certified autographed cards are produced for the sole purpose of being signed and inserted in packs, sometimes limited numbered editions with gold foil stamping. They are not just regular base cards with an autograph on them. One set that I collect has the regular base cards with a white border with blue trim, while the certified pack pulled autographed versions have a white border with gold trim. It is done differently by different companies, but it is always marked in a way that is obvious that it is a pack pulled factory certified insert card.

Cool. Thanks!

Any new thoughts on this?

People will tell you the same thing, that has been said before do your research and verify it will other collectors. The big authenticators do a decent job but things slip through the cracks. It seems like you want an answer that is black and white, when in fact there is not one

At risk of creating more unnecessary controversy I will say that I think Beckett autograph authentication makes a fair number more mistakes than PSA/DNA. Neither is perfect.

An oldie, but a goodie.
 

Anyone think it has gotten better since?

https://www.si.com/longform/true-cri...lia/index.html

This is a ridiculous statement. One in 10,000 to one in a million? Are you kidding me. They make mistakes on every large order that goes to them. You’re making these statements because you’re friends with Kevin Keating. You have said so in the past many times. They are failing items at a ridiculous rate in the past couple of years. Anyone who is doing business sees this every order.

Yes, I've made no secret of my friendship with Kevin and admiration for his skills, and perhaps I've exaggerated the big-TPA error rate, but what would you put it at? To say there's errors in every large order seems an exaggeration to me, and how do you know? To say that, you must be better than they are, which I seriously doubt. My point is that their error rate is probably about the same as yours at whatever line of work you're in, so stop whining and admit that, overall, the advent of the respected TPAs has been a major step forward for the autograph hobby.

I never said Kevin was not knowledgeable or very skilled in his work, I said the error rate. They kick stuff all the time that is good. One example, they are currently kicking all kinds of Kirby Puckett items because they learned a bunch of stuff that wasn’t good made it through the process. So is it right to kick back multiple items because they were burnt in the past? No, it’s not. There are many many other examples just like this.

No one here ever said Bill or Kevin weren’t great at what they do, they said they are taking peoples money and kicking back items that are good. Apparently that business model is ok with you.

Every person who submits larger quantities knows this. They don’t care because they (PSA) are keeping peoples money and they don’t allow push back. Just like you don’t allow push back.

But I don't mind pushback at all, I've been a pusherback all my life. It's just that I am old enough to remember the "wild west" days of the hobby, and I don't think anybody wants to go back to that. You used the word "ridiculous" twice in pushing back on my support of the TPAs, so I guess I'm pushing back on you a bit for that, but you didn't answer my question: of the total universe of submissions to PSA, as an example, what % do you think they get wrong? And wouldn't you rather they be too strict in their opinions--which can't be great for their business other than solidifying their reputation--than too lax? I really don't want to come off as a shill for the TPAs, but setting up at shows with Kevin for a dozen years taught me a lot about the autograph hobby, and I just think that it's better now with them than it was before without them. That shouldn't exempt them from criticism, however, and I shouldn't have called that whining, that was wrong on my part. Everybody's feet should be held to the fire in whatever they do, it's a better world that way.

I think that on balance, rejecting an authentic signature is a much "better" mistake to make than passing a forgery. Of course, no company is going to get everything 100% right, but I generally believe JSA, PSA, and Beckett rarely pass inauthentic signatures, and if that means they end up kicking a few more authentic examples, that's a trade-off I'm perfectly fine with.

I have not read everything in this thread. So if what I am about to write has all ready been written so be it.
If you are talking about autographs that you find in packs may I remind you of the $80.000 upper deck card that had two forged signitures.
That card was authenticated by a so called expert.

There are only two people that I would trust when it come to vintage autographs. Jim Stenson and Rirchard Simon. As far as to autographs of today I would not trust anyone because of how poorly they sign there names, unless it is from a company that has these people under contract and some times I am not even sure about that.

id rather have and trust a pack pulled factory certified autograph over a psa certified autograph anyday!

Maybe nothttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...7e09531dad.jpg

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clarification..i meant on card topps autographs!

It's Jim STINSON and RICHARD Simon, and yes, they are at the very top by reputation with vintage autographs. There is another handful of experts in that same group, but I'm not going to name names here. How anybody could really authenticate today's squiggles and scratches is beyond me, I would surely want to have witnessed it or have some truly ironclad provenance, but I'm not sure what that might be. And I'd be surprised if the autograph hobby doesn't take a hit at some point because of this and also because the newer sigs are just so darned unattractive and illegible.