My point was a short sarcastic joke implying that a card grader hooking up with the most famous grading fraudsters of this era is probably not a good thing, spawning rage from the apparent PWCC shills.

After your third complaint about this, I said that PWCC and their ring has been proven to alter more cards than anyone else ever has been proven too. I said they are the biggest publicly known and evidenced fraud ring in the hobby right now, today. This is why they get negative comments; massive fraudsters tend to make people who are aware of their fraud not like them.

This is not difficult. I have said my point very explicitly and briefly several times. Go do your homework or produce your evidence that any of this is untrue. Show us where anyone here said that PWCC is the sole bad actor in the hobby. I have no idea how you think that saying "PWCC runs a fraud ring" means Peter and/or I are saying that nobody else is guilty of fraud or other card-related offenses. That is not a rational argument whatsoever.

For reference, the comment that spawned this round of the discussion.

"For me, I just don’t understand why the claims agains pwcc gain more traction than those against others. Maybe the volume is higher and it’s justified I guess. Just seems like there’s a pick and choose that might not be justified."

a taste...if anyone isn't aware or is curious and/or too lazy to read!

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showthread.php?t=1298835

The masses are not masses at all, rather a tiny portion of hobbyists. For the other 99% it has been BAU.

Not that anyone should care but the "scandal" did affect how I collect but I am well aware I am not representative of the overall hobby.

I agree with you Peter, but the hobby couldn't care less about this stuff. I don't see any downside for CSG - 100 people in the hobby will think the partnership is BS, and 10K more will place their first order with CSG.

And in case people are too lazy to read, here https://www.blowoutforums.com/showthread.php?t=1304959 is a list of all the dudes who have been outed as card altering fools with mounds of evidence against them. For those burying their heads in the sand, please contact anyone on the list above for special orders. You want it, they will make it for you.

If an expert here has free time and can answer some basic questions for me as I was trying to use them for vault purposes Please give me a call. Pm me for number.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I know. Just how it is.

I thought I was done with CSG 6 months ago. But their recent changes to their flip and grading scale show humility and that they are listening to the customers. Their continued partnerships with major players in the hobby show initiative and drive. Their bandwidth to turn around the volume of cards that are heading their way via eBay on top of the submissions they receive is pretty impressive given how new they are. Comparing their ability to hire and train graders to that of their competitors leaves me scratching my head as they seem to be nearly an order of magnitude more efficient in this process. I'm becoming increasingly more convinced that CSG is going to jump into the #2 spot in the not too distant future. The vintage market will be more hesitant to adopt them, at least at first, but they will definitely become major players with modern cards very soon IMO.

I have about 150 cards that I previously had no intention of grading that I'll be sending off to CSG tomorrow. I really, really love their new slabs. Well-centered PSA 9s are about to get the middle finger from CSG, just watch. Soon, people will be cracking PSA 9s and sending them off to CSG, hoping for that 9.5 (or better).

I'm not sure there's a whole lot of mystery as to CSG's reasoning. They did the math and decided that partnering with PWCC would generate enough revenue and market share gain to offset any hit their rep might take by laying down with filth like PWCC. What other reasoning could there be?

But, of course a topic like the CSG/PWCC partnership is going to generate a lot of negative comments toward both parties. "But CSG hasn't done anything wrong - yet!" isn't a defense here. The "anything wrong" is partnering with PWCC in the first place. If you partner up with an enterprise that is a known criminal enterprise, you're no longer an innocent party who has done nothing wrong. People pointing this out - even sarcastically- are not misdirecting the conversation. They're taking it to a logical destination. How can you possibly discuss a PWCC/CSG partnership in any meaningful way and NOT bring up PWCC's criminal activities? You can't, IMHO.

I just bought 71 topps reggie jackson🤭

Has it been publicly announced anywhere by any of the other big three TPGs (PSA, SGC, & Beckett) and emphatically stated that they will no longer accept ANY card submissions from or through PWCC? If not, and any of them now accepts (or previously accepted) a grading submission from or through PWCC, you should all be saying they too are just as guilty as PWCC because they chose to do business with them, correct?

And by extension then, the bank they use is invariably aiding in their criminal activity, and should be considered an accessory to their crimes. And that goes for the landlord who leases them space, the cleaning company they may hire to vacuum and dust their offices, the store that sells them office supplies, heck, even the US postal service is guilty for continuing to deliver them mail that aids and abets their criminal operations. And of course, every single employee on PWCC's payroll is also equally as guilty of their crimes and should also end up behind bars. And you can go on and on to name every single person and enterprise that does anything that helps to keep PWCC's business operating, as an accessory to their crimes then. At least that is according to the logic being put forth for people on Net54 apparently.

"If you partner up with an enterprise that is a known criminal enterprise, you're no longer an innocent party who has done nothing wrong."

So based on what you seem to be implying for yourself and many other people here on Net54 with those words, is that when the FBI finally completes their investigation of PWCC and goes forward with criminal prosecution, we should expect an enormous number of people to end up going to jail, including all the people working with other businesses that supported and helped to maintain PWCC's criminal operations by offering and providing them their goods and services.

""But (enter name of any person or business doing anything with or for PWCC) hasn't done anything wrong - yet!" isn't a defense here. The "anything wrong" is partnering with PWCC in the first place.".

Those are your words, incorporating a quote from me, not mine. Maybe you can explain that to the single Mom with two little kids at home as she gets hauled off to jail because she needed the job and money from being a receptionist and just answering the phones at PWCC. Of course, I'm making up the single Mom being their receptionist part (even though it actually could be the case) to make a point and add a little dramatic effect. As you alluded to, she has no defense and should be considered guilty, just like CSG, right? So, I guess such a hypothetical figure as this single Mom could/would/should also be an eligible target for sarcastic comments from Net54's peanut gallery then as well. And therefore, I would be remiss and completely in the wrong for calling out any of those parties hurling sarcastic comments at the obviously guilty single Mom as being juvenile a-holes for doing so!

Chris, you're a good guy, and we usually see eye to eye on things. I trust you can see my logic and reasoning behind what I'm saying. And though you put forth the most obvious reasons for CSG doing this (money and market share), I was hoping to get into a little deeper discussion of specific points that may have swayed CSG to make the decision to go forward. Along with the possibility that there may actually be some good coming from this arrangement, such as a flat rate grading fee finally being seen in the hobby. Forgive my foolishness for actually thinking that such an adult conversation could take place on this forum in regards to such a testy and controversial subject, without it also releasing the juvenile trolls that just love to bark and bite at one's ankles.

It's the speeding ticket thing. "But officer, others were speeding too" is not a defense to the ticket. The fact that others maybe committed bad acts is not a justification for your bad acts. Mastro, Allen, et al. were criminals. Their criminality is not cover for others' wrongdoing. The evidence of PWCC running a shill bidding operation and profiting from trimmed cards is overwhelming, and no one else's bad acts can justify theirs. Like The Clash sang:

You're minding your own business
Carrying spare change
You wouldn't cosh a barber
You're hungry all the same
I been very tempted
To grab it from the till
I been very hungry
But not enough to kill

You either do bad things or you don't, period, and if you do, anyone helping is an accessory. Enablers grease the machinery of wrongdoing. Like the guy installing plumbing on the Death Star. Never lifted a gun, or hurt a soul, just went to work every day installing toilets, until he was blown up. Tragic? Nope. Without his work, the genocidal Grand Moff Tarkin has nowhere to drop a deuce. In this case, despite the abundant information about its new partner, CSG management has decided to get in bed with PWCC and help that enterprise prosper. CSG deserves scorn and a consumer boycott.

You guys keep talking about PWCC as if any of these allegations have been proven. You might be convinced, but the prosecutors asks FBI clearly were not. CSG probably couldn't care less about hobby conspiracy theories.

PWCC has been charged with zero crimes. PWCC is a big player in this market. That's probably all CSG cares about. I wouldn't even be surprised if they knew absolutely nothing about all the PWCC conspiracy theories in fact. That stuff is pretty deep in the shadows of this hobby.

It’s one of the most talked about things in the hobby. It’s not in the shadows…

A person who is guilty of wrongdoing and a person who has been convicted of a crime are different things. That PWCC has not been charged or convicted does not mean the mountains of evidence are untrue.

I was unaware of the "PWCC has been banned from PSA" conspiracy theory. Regardless, it's false. I know for a fact that PWCC is still submitting cards to PSA. They offered to send in one of the cards in my vault for a grade review 3 days ago (prompted by me, not them).

An example of the "burden of proof" logical fallacy, eh? :D

You, me, and countless others know damn well what the truth is. It doesn't matter who denies it, and it's a waste of time arguing with them.

I think we're moving away from logical fallacies and bad faith arguments into "straight up lying" territory now :)

Yes but it's couched in logical fallacy terms -- he hasn't been charged or convicted therefore he didn't do anything wrong.

BTW do innocent people choose to cooperate with the FBI?

Ok logical fallacies aside we have to agree with you that pwcc is the worst actor based on the number of posts here. Done and done.

Think whatever you want, but base it on facts.

Any evidence you have to refute any claim that has been made would be welcome. A logical argument at least would also be welcome.

We should cut them some slack, after all being a PWCC shill is a very difficult task these days ;)

It's interesting, for years, people vehemently defended PWCC. One "The Scandal" really came to light, virtually nobody did. Now, people seem to be doing so again, or at least in the lukewarm sense of claiming it's all an unproven conspiracy theory, or saying they're no worse than everyone else in the hobby, etc.

Good, so people should also quit using the US postal service that delivers their mail, find out who they buy office supplies from so everyone can boycott them, shut off/cancel their gas, water, sewer, electricity if they currently get any of these utilities from the same provider PWCC gets their utilities from, immediately close out and move any and all accounts/funds they have from whatever bank(s) PWCC also uses, find out if PWCC uses PayPal, Venmo, Zelle, or any other payment services as part of their business, and if so, everyone else should immediately discontinue using those services, and so on. And every employee of PWCC should be shunned and scorned by family and friends, and denied help and service from any and all other companies, stores, and businesses, to the point that no grocery store will ever sell them food for themselves and their families, and no doctor will even take them on as a patient.

Oh, and I'm forgetting the best example of all, PWCC's attorney(s), both in-house and external, if applicable, should be disbarred permanently for daring to work with and represent a known criminal enterprise. In fact, based on your logic, any attorney ever representing any criminal or criminal enterprise should probably be immediately and permanently disbarred.

And I can easily extend your logic even further. Since it is an indisputable fact that a portion of current practicing attorneys make money off of representing known criminals and criminal enterprises, it is an additional fact that other attorneys, like yourself for example, are well aware of that, yet allow such criminally involved/associated attorneys to belong to the same Bar Association and related organizations as the rest of you licensed attorneys. And because all attorneys get support and resources from the Bar and related organizations, why do all the non-criminally involved/associated attorneys allow those attorneys representing criminals to belong to the same organizations as them, interact with them, help support and at least indirectly supply them with resources they then can use on behalf of criminals, and so on? Even though you may not be doing any of that directly yourself, why aren't you actively seeking to have these criminally involved/associated attorneys removed from such organizations or disbarred? And absent being able to, or having no success in doing so, why haven't you instead removed yourself from the Bar, and any other of these organizations, so you aren't potentially tainted by some direct/indirect affiliation, enabling, or interaction with these criminally associated attorneys?

And by the way, I like the Star Wars reference, even though it's a little bit out there. But let me add a more real world twist to your question of a moral dilemma. Instead of the Death Star, you're looking at a WW II concentration camp in Poland, and a local civilian is conscripted and put to work in the camp and ordered what to do. He sees and is aware of what is being done, but shuts up and does as he is told. Even though he has not had his life directly threatened, he has a wife and small children outside the camp he still needs to be around for to look after and support. The war ends and years later he's suddenly accused and brought up on war crimes charges. So, is he guilty, or should he have risked getting shot and killed by not following orders while working at the camp, and leaving his wife and children to fend for themselves? Decisions aren't always so crystal clear, are they? And we both know that regardless of how you would answer this moral dilemma question, there will be a group out there somewhere that would vehemently attack and seek to discredit you if they were aware of how you responded and had a ready platform to come after you on.

And along the lines of coming after someone, I'd be more cautious about that very last statement you posted, "CSG deserves scorn and a consumer boycott.", especially on a public forum like this which directly interacts with and is followed by numerous businesses and individuals that could all be potential CSG customers. I think we both know it wouldn't be impossible to dig up at least a few of your legal brethren who would be happy to come after you for making that libelous statement about boycotting CSG, if they thought they could get a pay day (and I'm not talking candy bars) out of it. Especially since CSG has been neither accused nor convicted of any crimes or misdeeds that I'm aware of, and though they have been accused, PWCC has never (at least not yet) to my knowledge been formally charged or convicted of any crimes or misdeeds either. I believe your profession still follows the "Innocent till proven guilty in a court off law." mantra, right? And the fact that, to my knowledge, you are not also publicly calling out for a consumer boycott of any other individuals or enterprises currently or previously engaged in business in some way with PWCC would on the surface seem to indicate you are specifically targeting CSG, and CSG alone, with your statement. The legal profession is one I feel truly does not always embrace and adhere very well to the old adage and concept of, "Honor among thieves."

This behavior is why, personally, I think the best detective work was the work on modern cards that are serial numbered. The unique serializing makes it entirely undeniable that these cards were, in fact, the exact same card and clearly trimmed. Which is probably why we see nobody actually challenge the evidence itself, simply throw absurd illogical statements around and try to lump in the documentation of PWCC's guilt with conspiracy theories. When you got nothing else to throw, throw bull!@#$

Well we got through 104 posts before Godwin's law was proven yet again.

Repeating what I said in another thread as it seems relevant here.

Keep in mind that with strict rules of evidence and a very high burden of proof, not all crimes can be successfully prosecuted in court. At one point Brent Huigens was a cooperating witness and his rumored decision not to cooperate may have changed the prosecutor's calculus. If indeed this is all over from the criminal justice angle, and we don't know that, I think evidentiary considerations likely were more the reason than either the FBI or the prosecutor considering this unimportant. Prosecutors only like to pursue cases they feel they have a strong chance of winning. The evidence in the court of public opinion is quite different from what is admissible in court. They couldn't just put up screenshots of Blowout threads.

All speculation of course.

__________________

That law goes all the way back to the early usenet groups if memory serves.

dumb question. How long (without the additional delaying effects of a pandemic) did the investigation of Mastro take? Doug Allen? Operation Bullpen? Was there a point in those investigations where people were like "see they didn't do anything because they haven't been charged and it's been 'X' amount of time"???

I looked it up, it goes back to 1990 in usenet groups apparently. I don't remember hearing it until the mid 2000's.

Yeah human nature being what it is, it probably came up in the first controversial thread ever.

It was apparently three years after the FBI was seen at the 2009 National that Mastro and Allen were indicted. Presumably the investigation was then necessarily longer than that (source: https://sportscollectorsdigest.com/c...-fraud-charges). It was 3 more years, I 2015, that he was sentenced.

Mastro I believe closed down in 2009 and was indicted in 2012. The recent indictment for autograph fraud concerned activities several years before. Sometimes these things do take time. Again, I have no knowledge at all about the investigation of PWCC etc. etc.

Seriously, I would love to read some of the first public chat board threads in internet history. I imagine little has changed, except we have more developed memes now.

Here goes my productivity for the week.

Yup, people back then claimed they were right and rudely shot down others. Not much has changed apparently.

Still waiting for you to provide a single shred of evidence or a coherent logical argument. Still waiting for you to show me where anyone said that PWCC is the "sole actor" committing fraud.

Geez, Bob, talk about going far afield...the Holocaust, really? Not a good thing to put into a friggin' card thread, and I am not going to respond to it substantively. I used Star Wars as an example to try and keep it in the realm of inoffensive fiction.

As for attorneys, there are indeed people out there who believe that suspected criminals should not get a defense, or even a trial. Just take 'em out and shoot 'em. Fortunately, our Constitution's Bill of Rights differs. Everyone is entitled to a defense as a right, and that means someone has to do the defending. Me, personally, I did not want to do that sort of work so I am strictly a civil practitioner, but I understand and respect the Constitutional role that criminal defense attorneys have in our system. If PWCC and/or its principals are indicted, they too will be entitled to the best defense they can procure, and I do not begrudge them their defense or their day in court. That said, I don't want to defend them and would not sign on to defend an adjunct civil case against them if asked. Unlike an accused criminal, no one is entitled to a graded card. No one's liberty is threatened if a card gets graded or not.

CSG has decided to take on PWCC's baggage by partnering with it. That is their choice. I can choose where to spend my hobby money. I choose not to buy from PWCC because of their history and the likelihood that I will get a doctored card. I also can choose not to do business with CSG as a result.

The basic issue you raise is contextual. Nuance. Not something Americans do well. Should a conscript refuse to serve? Depends on what is being asked and what is being threatened. Muhammad Ali was willing to go to prison over his objections to being drafted. Some consider that an unforgivable breach of duty to the country; others consider it a justified refusal to violate his religious beliefs. Both answers are right and both are wrong, depending on the context. Refusing to serve in Vietnam is far different than refusing to serve in WWII. Context.

PWCC has been represented by counsel since the beginning of The Scandal.

Yes, by really good counsel. And they are entitled to the defense.

No question. Imagine this country without the right to counsel and to a trial by jury.

Each of us hoping that none of our cards ever spent time with PWCC before we owned them...

Attachment 514765

What I just don’t understand is why they’ve become the easy target here. When others do shady things it’s passed off like oh I’d trust him with my wallet. Probably a bunch of people that would trust the pwcc head with their wallet. Just always thought it was curious that pwcc is the chosen mark.

Are you seriously trying to equate REA with PWCC, Brian Dwyer with Brent Huigens? OMG if so. People have answered the why question repeatedly and you're just not listening to the answer.

Not equating those two but use them as an example - you know them both personally or worked for them?

I have had many direct interactions with Brent over the years by email and occasionally by phone, many involving questioning him about altered cards, relationships with card doctors, and so forth. I've posted many of the responses over the years. I don't know Brian well but I've known him somewhat since he was a kid on a nonpublic message board I used to belong to. My most recent dealing with Brian was letting him know, the day of the most recent auction, that a card was bad and despite the late notice it was taken down before the close.

Any attempt to equate the two is beyond ridiculous.

It has been explained to you several times already. Your continued implication that REA is on PWCC’s level you have refused to back up though.

The PWCC shills used to be a lot better.

Just seems like you were quick to judge the extended auction handling as no big deal. Like I’ve said before, seems like pwcc can do no right and others can do no wrong. Not black and white.

Internet bully. Probably got picked on in high school.

Their software was obviously malfunctioning. It was like 1AM. I am sure it was extremely stressful. He made a decision. Like you would have made a better one? And you want to equate that with PWCC who is or was under federal investigation and who initially was a cooperating witness meaning their intent was to plead? Please. Why you are committing to this is way beyond me.

The decision point is where you seem to be giving a free pass. Don’t run an auction with bad software. If pwcc did the same - and never consigned or sent anything to the vault - you guys would have been all over it as fraud.

You're insane. I've defended Brent here on certain things and said publicly one of the Cortney Delorme texts people go gaga about didn't mean much of anything. I have no bias.

I didn't even go to a high school. Calling you out on your lies you can't even attempt to backup is not exactly bullying. How about you provide evidence for your claims?

+1

My claim is you guys seem to throw pwcc under a bus all the time and pass on others. What evidence can I give you? It’s just what I’ve read.

Also, lies? Chill

Where is your evidence REA has been doing what PWCC is? Put up, or shut up comes into play at some point. You keep hurling implication at people and groups and refuse to back them up again and again.

CSG is going after market share and public acceptance so the more of their cards out in the market and the more that start to circulate thru the auction houses the more they will be accepted, thought about and used. PWCC gives them a steady flow of cards to accomplish to get themselves established.

If done right and if the prices stay steady or even increase but not dramatically then perhaps they think they can pickup more of the graded market as PSA and SGC and others rates are to high for many cards to be worth grading

I never said rea does what pwcc does. Chill. And don’t tell me or anyone to shut up.

When you've refused to provide the evidence for your assertions of equal wrong doing over and over again, 'put up or shut up' is fair. You've refused to back up any of your claims, and lied about what people have said in this very thread.

Where did I say equal wrongdoing?

"For me, I just don’t understand why the claims agains pwcc gain more traction than those against others."

That sure sounds to me like you're saying equal wrongdoing, otherwise you would understand the difference in traction.

The recent REA auction getting extended for an entire day was an absolute bullshit move. I was high bidder on multiple listings at the time. The site was down for a few minutes. Maybe 10 minutes max. But then they kept draggin it on for hours while communicating to us buyers that we would have just 10 more minutes to put in our final bids. So they were squeezing every bit of juice they could out of it. Then after all of us were kept up for hours, checking our listings, they decided to extend it another day. It was absolutely a shitbag thing to do to the buyers and was 100% a money grab. Well, it worked. They got a lot more money (this time anyhow). But the lost a consigner in the process. I had 75k worth of cards that were previously heading their way, but are now going to Heritage instead.

That’s a fantastic reading.

Yeah but the auction head can handle your wallet if you want. He’s a good dude.

Yeah I'm just stupid, don't get the meaning of your crystal clear prose, and Greg is stupid too.

Don’t invent a straw man. You’re better than that.

In speaking with others who were bidding in that auction, this was their beef too. The connection might have been slow at various points but bids were being placed frantically, lots remaining open, bids being placed on them again for a considerable amount of time and then a notice sent that it was being extended after many people went all in to win. I have two friends who bid with REA and spend a good deal of money there who claim they will not be bidding again and have told the owner. Personally I think they will but I get how frustrating that must have been.

You have been unable to show where we said what you have charged we said, that PWCC is the sole bad actor or is responsible for most bad things in hobby land.

We have shown exactly where you have said what you are now denying to have said.

Got any evidence to back up any of these hot takes you keep walking back, denying, or changing?

I think REA's full day extension was a bullshit move. I have never placed a bid with REA.

Can anyone on the other side of this debate explain to me how that means we should not criticize PWCC's fraud ring in a thread specifically about PWCC?

Is extending an auction after system problems in the same realm as running a fraud ring for years? If so, what is the coherent, logical argument for this?

You have done none of that. We have shown lol.

Please answer this question then to cut through it all and to put an end to the back and forth. What IS your take on PWCC relative to other hobby players who have been mentioned here such as REA and I believe Goldin and Mastro?

You declined to show where Peter or I claimed this. I have asked you to back it up like a dozen times and you have refused. Where did either of us say that PWCC is the sole bad actor. Everyone can read the transcript...... Are you seriously this dumb?

He is reminding me of Yogi, "I never said half the things I said," lol. But let's see if he now gives a direct answer stating his opinion.

My take is in the eyes of some of you pwcc can do no right and rea and others can do no wrong. You jump on pwcc regularly and for whatever reason gave rea a free pass. Things aren’t so black and white. Also, childish posts. For someone who takes pride in not being on Facebook you’d fit in well there.

Nice evasion. I should have known. I'm done with this nonsense. Have a good night.

Looks like it's a no :)

This is a thread about PWCC. Why would I dump on REA (you refuse to even say what I'm supposed to be critical of, I don't see REA running a fraud ring) instead in a thread specifically about PWCC?

This is the stupidest sequence of shitposts I've read in awhile.