....
 

The sports card market is not always rational, there's your answer

So very true. An Eddie Yost card just sold for $2500 on ebay. How does that make any sense when you can get a Wade Boggs rookie for $20?

Stop the insanity!

;)

Interesting, what happened there?

Nagurski was elected to the Pro Football Hall of Fame as a charter member on September 7, 1963.

Sports Illustrated named Nagurski one of the four greatest athletes in Minnesota state history.

In 1999, he was ranked No. 35 on The Sporting News' list of the 100 Greatest Football Players, the highest-ranking foreign-born player.

You forgot the Billy Ripken F*** Face. So now you've got Broadway Joe lumped in with the error/scam cards?

This is an absurd statement. Ja Morant is a younger and better basketball player than Doncic. Every GM in the league would take Morant over Luka given the choice.

You don't say. Even Monte McNair?

I would think so, although their needs are at other positions, as DeAaron Fox is pretty damn good!

I'm A HUGE Ja Morant fan. Every since murray state. I've been saying all along, "I don't know if Zion will pan out, but I KNOW Morant will be a superstar."

That said, he's still no Luka Doncic. Not even close. There isn't a single GM in the league who would take Morant over Luka. You don't know basketball if you think otherwise. You're a highlight reel watcher. Morant makes highlights. He's more fun to watch. But he's not a better player. Not even close.

NBA GMs are so wishy washy.

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Lol!! You are insufferable, and this comment is so ignorant it's not worth continuing the debate even if you weren't so obnoxious.

That said, just for humor's sake I am going to save this post right next to the one where you claim Hyun Jin Ryu is better than Warren Spahn. :D

I don't know, maybe he has a point. After all, Hyun Jin Ryu has three names compared to Spahn's two...and he did it with fewer letters.

You can't argue with statistics.

Haha!

That's when I removed myself from the conversation on the best lefty thread.

Getting back to the purpose of the thread, I honestly think the Doncic card is the perfect reflection of the Modern card market. Doncic is very marketable, appeals to a lot of people and ever since his record setting card a little bit ago, people want to keep buying more of him, that are into Modern.

Mantle is iconic, for the post war Hobby. I do think Vintage does tend to sway a bit towards the older crowd however, and even if Mantle's 52 Topps, transcends that, many of the modern collectors crowd probably has the mindset of, "Well it's not shiny, it's not autographed, it's just a regular card." Mantle's cards do operate, off a sort of Nostalgia of the clean cut, All American Boy, from Oklahoma, who could smack a couple of homers and then go out and party with his pals after the game. I think also the majority of Mantle collectors either fall into the categories of A) Grew up watching him or B) Had fathers who grew up watching him.

Doncic is all the rage now. He's Young, very talented, on the world stage of one of the most popular sports, his cards will reflect that. I don't really understand it either, it's not rational, but neither is this card market, or the fact that digital pixels are selling for thousands of dollars, but NFT's are another discussion.

Ryu is better than Warren Spahn. Along with probably almost half the league today. And again, it's not even close. You're free to think otherwise though. I really couldn't care less.

As for Doncic vs Morant, there's a lot more to the game of basketball than slashing and cutting to the rim for poster dunks. The reasons Doncic is better than Morant are the same reasons that Jokic won the MVP last year.

Al, I don't know. I think a lot of people were surprised he was left off that honorary team.

Another nonsensical comment. I can't help but wonder if you are as much of a self-righteous prick in real life as you come across on this board.

Like, if you go to dinner with someone and you disagree about the quality of the food, do you proceed to tell them how they "obviously don't know cuisine"?

Or, at breakfast, do you proselytize to whomever you're with about how your statistical analysis proves that you and you alone have determined the correct milk-to-cereal ratio and if anyone disagrees, "you couldn't care less"?

Readers will notice that you have failed to back up your ridiculous position with your own beloved statistics, and instead have resorted to baseless insults. I wonder why? :D

Let's compare their career stats per 36 minutes:

FG% Morant +1.6%

3PT% Morant +.1%

FT% Morant +1.8%

Rebounds Doncic +4.1

Assist to Turnover Ratio
Morant 2.19:1
Doncic 1.95:1

Steals Doncic +.4

Blocks Doncic +.1

Pts Doncic +4.9

Consider also their qualities as on and off the court leaders, and it will make sense why Morant would be widely preferred among GMs if an anonymous poll was taken today.

Or, perhaps you could use your Silicon Valley VC contacts to reach out to Zach Kleiman and ask him if he would trade Morant for Doncic. Then let us know the number of expletives that his negative response to you contains. :D

Maybe I don't know the new BKB metrics, but if Doncic scores 5 more points with 4 more rebounds, it's not entirely obvious to me that Morant is clearly better? Where at least stat wise is this clear edge to Morant?

Good point. These stats alone certainly don't prove that. I brought up these stats mainly to counter Snowman's assertion that "Doncic is the best young player in the league and it's not close." Just these stats alone are clearly enough to refute that–Morant is a better pure scorer and pure point guard, while Doncic is a better rebounder and marginally better defender.

Statistically, they are trending in different directions, though: Morant has been better than Doncic this season overall by a fair margin, including more points scored per game.

I actually think it's the non-statistical stuff that makes Morant a better player. Morant makes his teammates better, while Doncic....does not. Watching both of them through their career, it's clear that Morant is a far more mature player (and person) than Doncic despite being younger.

What's your assessment (recognizing that obviously it's speculative this early) of Morant's upside?

Allen Iverson with multiple championships and a longer career.

Optimists see Doncic's ceiling as a Euro-/Lite version of Magic Johnson, but for me that's a big stretch. He's a tall, thick point guard, but the comparison doesn't go beyond that for me.

Other than LeBron, I don't see anyone ever being as versatile as Magic was. He was a point guard who often moved down to power forward in the half court set, and in a pinch he could play freaking center and score 40 points in the NBA final, still one of the most amazing things I ever saw. He was a revolutionary too, nobody that big had ever played the point that well or maybe at all, nobody had ever ripped the ball out of the net and started a fast break off a made basket. And I don't think anyone had stood at the top of the key waiting for his forwards to cut and then whipped the ball between five people into someone's hands for a layup. If anything he is underrated lol.

I totally agree! I'm glad you mentioned LBJ though...the Lakers are struggling mightily this year but what he is doing at his age is truly remarkable: switching from point guard to center and dominating everyone at the position except the most elite big men.

I understand the dislike for the man, but he has been and still is an astonishingly good basketball player, the complete package.

BTW I saw Magic in college in 1979. It was like seeing the game through new eyes, he just played it in a way I had not seen before. I had a similar experience seeing David Thompson as a freshman, he had an unreal height on his jump shot and at least on this afternoon was just drilling everything in sight, scored 40.

Very cool–I never saw him play live, bu I've heard that David Thompson in person was something to behold.

I had a similar experience watching Larry Bird play in all his home games his senior year at Indiana State (I was a freshman at the university).

It was something special to experience in-person. I've never seen anything quite like it.

Tim

I saw him as a pro but not as a collegian, would have liked to have seen that.

I did too. MSU and Illinois were 1 and 2 in the country and the Illini won on a jumper by Eddie Johnson in the last few seconds. Eddie went on to have a great NBA career with the Suns and is now a sportscaster.

As for Doncic, he's made 1st team All NBA two of his first three years. Lebron and Magic never did that.

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Though he wasn't necessarily tall enough to go down low and play center against the likes of Chamberlain or Russell, I'd throw Oscar Robertson's hat into the ring. The man was a triple-double machine, back when people didn't really even know what that was yet. Of course that was early in his NBA career, and later on he fell more back into just acting as a point guard. And he was 6'-5", so definitely not short for back then.

I saw Magic in Ann Arbor. Funny, Michigan wasn't that good but as I recall won the game on a jumper by Mike McGee who went on to the NBA as well. Similar games, crazy.

My then girlfriend, who was visiting from out of town, did not want to go. I was like, if a 6 foot 9 point guard they call Magic is in town, you don't pass up the chance to see him.

If I recall correctly, he and West both debuted in the same game. I wish I had seen Oscar although I remember him from Bucks playoff games.

Yeah I only saw Big O on TV. I do remember though going to see Bob Pettit play for the St. Louis Hawks in 1964. Looking at the box score Lenny Wilkins played for the Hawks that year so I guess I saw him too.

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The only person I see casting insults in this thread is you. I gave my opinion on Luka vs Morant. You are more than free to disagree with me. Again, I really don't care. But let's not pretend like I'm the one in here calling you names.

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OK, let's get this straight. I said you were a "highlight reel watcher" who doesn't really know the game of basketball.

You called me, "insufferable", "ignorant", "obnoxious", "nonsensical", and "a self-righteous prick" among a slew of other cutting remarks.

Does this help clarify how this conversation has gone so far?

FWIW, this conversation is over. You are going on my ignore list for what should be obvious reasons. I'm not going to engage with you. Feel free to continue with the personal insults if you'd like though.

Yep. Watching Showtime all those years here in LA on local TV (yeah, that existed), it was just incredible, like I felt watching Dr. J with the Nets as a kid in NYC. The man was a magician out there. Grabs the ball and somehow it ends up in Worthy's hands for a finger roll or in Scott's hands for a jumper, or into Kareem for a skyhook.

https://photos.imageevent.com/exhibi...ohnson%201.jpg
https://photos.imageevent.com/exhibi...%20Johnson.jpg

I've never seen this Magic Johnson card. Very cool.

I'm also looking forward to the series they're putting together on HBOMax, about the showtime Lakers. Should be a great watch.

He and Bird were in the massive Sportscaster set.

Here's another Magic you don't see every day.

It’s a lot sexier to have a hot commodity that is active and can present volatility based on their current greatness. It’s always been the saving grace for modern card collecting. Vintage is like owning real estate. Modern is your crypto

I think Cars is a better comparison. The Modern market, wants to show off the latest Bugatti, Lamborghini, etc

The Vintage would rather showoff a Bizzarini or a Ferrari 250 GT California

I like the example Martin used better. Crypto could be worthless tomorrow just like a modern card. That Lambo and Bugatti are not going to lose 99.9% of their value like 99.9% of modern cards.

Do love me some exotic cars though.:D

Very True. And don't get me started on some of the classics! I think if I was a millionaire all I would buy are cards and cars :D

I just watched Doncic play the Pacers and it's no wonder he plays well as many times as the refs let him get away with walking. A LOT of players could be better than they currently are if they got away with what Doncic did tonight.....

David

Yup. He's been given that treatment since entering the league, too.

The refs do not let Doncic get away with anything, let alone walking. It is well known that they are overly harsh on him. The refs HATE Doncic. He complains way too much. He's one of the biggest complainers in the league. The refs are out to get him. This is a well known fact to anyone who pays attention to the NBA today. It's one of his biggest criticisms and probably the biggest flaw in his game.

The entire league "walks" with the ball nowadays. At least if you're coming at it from prior standards. Just watch Giannis euro step his way to the rim with ONE dribble from half court (literally). They've gotten pretty liberal with the definition of traveling. It's just how the game is played today.

I appreciate both of your insights. I had no idea there was a zebra conspiracy to make Luka look good. Are there others too on the referees' player improvement list? Please keep us informed as this develops, it could be big.

LOL, that is hilarious. All sports have had the free pass players and it is a pretty long list. it just depends if you like that player or if they are on your favorite team if you care or "see" it. For me the best part is the excuses people make for those players not getting special treatment when it is beyond obvious they are.

I have no comment on Luka because I haven't watched basketball in years.

To me, the NBA has been rigged for years. Certain players (usually with big shoe contracts) get calls (or not) that other players do (or don't).

Doncic carried the ball once last night and the refs didn't call it. Later, he carried the ball again and was caught. He cried almost as much as LeBron cries. Later, he walked and the refs didn't call it.

Three obvious travelling violations and only one is called and Doncic cried about it.

This is why I don't watch any NBA games other than when the Pacers are playing.

David

That's one of the things I strongly dislike about Doncic–he complains constantly despite being given the superstar treatment from the refs. At least LeBron and Steph Curry have earned it by being great for an extended period...

Thats been the case forever. Look at the last last shot Jordan took against Utah--he basically shoved the defender to the ground (watch the hand on the hip) to clear his shot. Anyone not named "Jordan" gets a whistle.

https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qim...6a00762f1e34b3

I swear McHale walked every time he got the ball in the low post. Looks like Jordan also takes a shuffle step to the left after he stopped dribbling?

Yes, he definitely traveled there!

The palming is ridiculous as well, but never gets called.

Saw one!
 

I saw one of these rare cards at the mall show in Portland yesterday.
A collector buddy who deals with these high end shiny basketball had just made a big acquisition. Some Blue Prizm sumthin that he said was worth 20k.

So I asked him about Doncic and he did say that Luca was the best player in the league. And the potential to be an all-time great as long as he didn’t get hurt.

I wonder if he had an incentive to say that…considering what he was holding.

But I did explain that my collection of old baseball cards features guys that don’t have to worry about a knee or Achilles injury, since they are already dead.

This is exactly why I transitioned to vintage.
These younger and current players could lose value overnight by an injury, some political whatever, beating their spouse/ significant other, dog fighting etc..no bueno.

I’m sticking to the “real estate “ from now on.

This thread has gotten off the rails a bit. To bring it back home some - I have a 13 year old who is real into modern, especially basketball and football and he likes “busting wax”. He asked to make a deal that if he made honor roll, would I get him a “good” wax box of cards. I asked him what “good” meant, and he considers “good” to be $500+. I told him I would be very proud if he got honor roll but there is no way I am buying him a $500 lottery ticket. I told him I would get him a card - at least that way we know he had something, rather than a chance at something.

Based on this thread, and although I consider all modern effective lottery tickets, we got a Ja Morant card. He appears to be 20% of the price of Doncic and based on this thread, he appears to be better than 20% the player. I think it’s a waste, but if my kid studies harder, keeps developing a work ethic, and has scholastic success, then that’s enough upside for me

Well done. I've given my sons a card for Christmas each year since the 90s. Sometimes it was Kris Bryant but other times it was Mike Trout. They both still have them all and overall their collections have done well. Now I have started with my granddaughters haha.

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It's called a "gather", and it's allowed.

Good choice

You have no idea what you're talking about. And I thought you put me on your ignore list? It appears your compulsion to assert your self-superiority has gotten the best of you yet again.

Strange, I thought this Forum was all about prewar baseball cards.

Well, you got the bonus plan.

https://official.nba.com/new-languag...ng-violations/

Feel free to educate yourself. If you'd like to. Or just continue shitting on those who already have and pretending you know what you're talking about.

The NBA rulebook is a contradictory, inconsistent mess. Everyone in and around the game knows it. If you've spent time playing the game at any organized level, you would recognize a traveling violation.

Please go back to ignoring my messages and have a great day!

It looks like the gather rule is from 2016. I'd be shocked if that move was not technically travelling in 1998. Then again, no referee is going to call it on Michael Jordan in that circumstance so it might as well be legal.

Interestingly, in the documentary Jordan denied he pushed off lol. But maybe there is a contrarian take on that? Like Russell was trying to get the foul call? I don't know it doesn't seem likely he would have flopped in that circumstance.

No, Jordan pushed off and the refs didn't call it. When you go to Utah don't bring it up.

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Al, that was certainly my impression watching the game, and that's what it looks like on the replay.

Jordans hand may have touched Russell, but it couldn't possibly be what sent Russell to the floor. Jordan crossed him up. It was Russell's own momentum that took him down. It wasn't a flop either. I get that the hand looks deceiving, but if you try to imagine how much force could have possibly been generated by Jordans hand in that instance, it couldn't have been much.

Try to look for the other angle of the play. The one from the side. It shows it better. There is no pushing off at all. He barely touches him.

That's true. I got the postcard a few days later.

From this angle it sure looks to me like he moves in response to the shove. I would not call that barely touching and it looks intentional. Another angle would be interesting if you can find.

My apologies for prolonging this non-baseball diversion, but:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yVGNmQSySvw

Look at 3:07

Yep, still a push-off.

Here's the thing about hand force: it can be deceiving. I once worked with a structural pest control expert on a construction defect case where water penetration had wrecked a 12' beam under a walkway in a condo complex. One of his favorite things to do in these wood rot cases was to take hold of the beam in a bare hand and pull and crumble chunks of it barehanded. An amazing and incredibly damning piece of evidence: beams that support entire walkways are not supposed to crumble in hand. Play that for a jury and watch the defense try to hide under the table. So i tried it, figuring that if this little guy (probably 150#) could crush a beam with one hand, my 6'4" 250# body could too. Guess what? I couldn't make a dent. Little bastard had hands like pistons. I have little doubt that all of these NBA players are tremendously strong and that what looks like a small push when MJ does it feels like a big push from me.

If Jordan pushed Russell, it would be evident from all angles. But the side view clearly refutes that theory. Look at Jordan's hand here as it makes contact with Russell's hip. It's a bump at most. The hand bounces off the hip and glides downward, bouncing off his calf. If he was pushing off, you would see Jordan's hand bend. You would see his fingers pressed into Russel's shorts/hip/ass cheek. You would see the hand pressing into Russell. But it doesn't. Not even a little bit. Jordan's fingers are straight. They don't even conform to Russell's hip at any point. Russell's jersey doesn't even move at all. And Jordan's hand just falls down. Jordan crossed him over big-time. Russell's own momentum is what takes him down. If you think this is some sort of Kung Fu Bruce Lee white magic move by Michael Jordan that sent Bryon Russell to the floor, then your license to argue anything on behalf of anyone in any court of law should be revoked because you are an idiot who is completely incapable of reason.


Skip to the 3:05 mark and just watch it on loop. This is absolutely irrefutable. He did not push off at all. He exerts effectively zero force on Bryon Russell.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yVGNmQSySvw

Thanks for posting I agree irrefutable. He pushed off.


....and I'm from Chicago.

Does it look like Russell accelerates after the touch? That to me would be key; from one angle it seems he does from the other less clear.

At least Doncic is playing in the pro's. I believe last night a Jasson Dominguez signed 1/1 Bowman refractor of some sort sold for $474K ( Golden Auctions ).

Never played above A ball, and wasn't that good in A ball.

GM's say he's a bit like Trout, Mantle......but those guys ripped the minor leagues.

Why wouldn't you just buy the Mantle card instead?

WC Fields, There's a sucker born every minute.

When you are already running in a particular direction if you get pushed slightly in the same direction it will have a much bigger effect than a shove if you were standing still. He pushed off.

I'm surprised Jordan wasn't arrested for assault