PWCC was supposed to enter extended bidding a few minutes ago for the Day 4 auction. For the last 10 minutes at least, there are no items at all listed in the Monthly auction. It is totally empty and reads "Monthly auction items coming soon!" Nothing under My Bids, Favorites, just nothing at all. What a mess.

Could someone have hacked the site?

It's all back now. Seems like they had a pretty serious glitch.

As I've stated numerous times, I know nothing at all about legal matters and FBI investigations. That makes me a self-admitted 'Know-nothing-at-all'. But you can keep calling me "Mr. Know it All" if that makes you feel better about yourself.

But from my ignorant perspective, 3 years and counting sure seems like a long time for zero charges to have been brought if this is still a hot case. Maybe it is, who knows. I certainly don't. But I do have friends at the bureau, and they were working all through the pandemic. I have no idea what cases they work on, and I highly doubt they were working on this one, but I know their work didn't slow down because of the pandemic as has been suggested here. Perhaps the courts are backed up? Again, I don't know. But I know the clock is ticking, and the longer this goes on without charges, the more likely it is that the accusations being made don't hold water.

If you know nothing about a subject, perhaps you should just be quiet instead of offering your smug meaningless observations.

Oof, I'll have to bookmark this one. That comment miiiiiight come back to bite you.

I don't claim to know the status of the investigation, but I'm not from a position of total ignorance making pronouncements about it either. My only point is that the passage of time here doesn't tell us anything.

Well it worked out for him on the Shoeless Joe autographed photo. LOL

Anyway, it seems, from what has been posted on BO and other places, that the investigation may have taken a change of course. Not sure if that is true but it might explain why we have not seen an indictment. Also wasn't the investigation more than just PWCC? Didn't it involve other bad actors?

To conclude silence means the matter has been dropped seems premature and ignorant.

His mocking tone is what really I find appalling given he admits he has zero knowledge even of the general topic of FBI investigations.

"I'm sure those indictments are just around the corner though. Any day now, any day now... Tick tock, tick tock... lol"

It is clear he is the only one here who does not recognize how he comes off.

...

Or perhaps I treat you with the same respect you show to me.

So, does PWCC have an actual phone number to talk to someone live? I can’t think of any other auction house that doesn’t pick up a phone to talk to a customer. I know many people have contacts there, and maybe have the private back line. However, I don’t have that and I’m old school where the best way to communicate is to talk.

the shill just keeps getting more annoying

This supposedly set me back $21.40 shipped, I'll updated again if/when it arrives

Pwcc auction
 

I had the same experience. Winning bid email and invoice vastly different. Thank goodness my max bids were low so i still came out pretty good, but their website is horrible.

Given the importance of first impressions, I am surprised they did not test it more effectively.

If they can continue to do massive business in the face of a federal investigation pertaining to shilling and card doctoring maybe we are WELL PAST first impressions.

"Its not dandruff, its dry scalp"

.....right

Why is it so difficult to run an auction platform/website? I’ve heard nothing but horror stories on how they are run, from bad invoicing all the way to website crashes.

Pwcc checkout - all new protocol
 

Very interesting. I just spent 50 minutes on PWCC Chat with a rep. I asked three simple questions:

1) How can I see a breakdown of my invoice that I paid for?
2) When will it ship?
3) How will it ship?

After 50 minutes, I finally was offered: You can go to your vault account next week and request them to look and to be shipped, as EVERYTHING now defaults to the vault.

So, for 20 years I have used PWCC for both sales and purchases without ever having a Vault default....I just want them shipped asap, like the tens of thousands of others over the years.

Cannot see anything until next week? Despite paying in full a day ago?

I must be asking for a lot.....

Because web servers are complicated, and most people who run them are not experts, but they have enough technical skills to build one and have it seem like it's working until their resources get tested in a live auction. Then they are left scrambling to try to figure out why it crashed. Then they fix the issue, or at least think they did, and then they have even more people testing the limits of the server in a future big auction and it crashes again lol.

Also worth noting is that to hire a true expert would probably be prohibitively expensive, and most people with those skills have zero desire to work somewhere like an auction house. They usually prefer a more tech savvy environment.

It's your own fault for buying fungible assets. :)

The invoices I received via email all had a complete breakdown of prices. Did yours not?

What do you mean by "cannot see anything until next week"? What are you not able to see?

I’m having a similar issue. I paid for my item and don’t have a payment confirmation or anything similar. Can’t get a response about shipping and haven’t heard anything. I’d like pwcc to continue to succeed but Heritage and REA and etc have humans I can talk to and this is a bit frustrating. I sent emails in to the main line and tried the bot chat function. Crickets. I don’t have a vault account to my I knowledge so I would have thought it would ship out to me.

To my point above, EVERYONE now that utilizes PWCC automatically has a Vault according to Chat CSR Isaiah. He took 50 minutes to disclose this. Also, he told me if you want your items shipped, you have to go into your "vault" and req them to be shipped.

I recd multiple emails with just a total, no sub total, not tax, no shp, no ins, and NOTHING about a Vault default....

On their site and my acct'g page, there is nothing except a grand total. No breakdown.

CSR Isaiah stated can't see into the vault until next week. Which means they will not ship until at least next week.

Their service just keeps getting worse, not better.

Amazing that it's their customer service (of all things) that troubles the PWCC loyalists here. Really dismayed to see how many people are willing to overlook blatant criminal practices, just to obtain cardboard.

Their pathetic customer service would be the very least of my concerns. But to each his own I suppose.

Not cardboard my friend, plastic.

So they don't allow you to receive the thing that you buy unless you wait and then make a special request for it? I'll prefer to bid on auctions that allow you to receive your winnings...

You find fault with the default to the vault, eh?

Yes, halt the vault default!

I can’t find my vault account to see the card I allegedly bought. Thankfully it’s Grove and not Ruth!

I thought previous posts indicated that their site defaulted to the vault, but you could just change that to select having the card shipped to you which then added on sales tax and shipping charges.

Why waste the time and cash to make anything work correctly. It is obvious they can do whatever they want and still have a huge line of people fighting to buy from them. Hell I would bet they could enclose a cat turd with every order and the PWCC fans would tell you how awesome and lucky they are to receive that cat turd.

Aha.... I stand corrected!

Actually you are both wrong. These are assets.

No clue what you’re talking about to be honest.

I won stuff on multiple days. After the first day, I received an email with a breakdown and total. If i clicked the link in the email, it took me directly to a website to pay.

Yes it defaults to the vault, but its literally as simple as clicking the box below “vault” where you address is.

After I won items on another day, I got an email with my full total (both days winnings)

I paid it. It was beyond easy.

While typing this message out, I found the receipt in my email from the payment which gives an invoice with an item by item breakdown.

If I go back to the emails requesting payment and click checkout, it takes me to a page that says my invoice is currently unavailable but still gives me an item by item breakdown.

I’ve never used PWCC for anything besides buying off ebay. Have no desire to have anything in a vault either.

This is exactly what happens. It is so ridiculously simple to click “ship to” your address that I don’t understand why anyone would complain.

Think of it like this. When you buy an item from a website, there is a default shipping method (normally the cheapest) that is selected. If you want to have it shipped a different way, you click another line.

It’s that.

What would happen to this market if the crypto market was to collapse ?

I'd like to see them have a Viking funeral, personally.

1. I usually look for where something is being mailed. I’d like to see the invoice page because I’m not sure they actually spelled it out.

2. See above. It’s been 3 days and counting without a response to a simple question of hey can I see that invoice or hey can I make sure the item is being mailed to me as opposed to a fictitious vault I actively never signed up to use in the first place. No excuse for not getting back to someone in several business days.

Yes they should get back to you quicker. It took them two days to get back to me about making sure I could wait to pay for everything at once.

But if you have paid, you can click INVOICE on that confirmation email and it will show you everything you are asking for.

I’m looking at mine now. Shows billing address, ship to address and then each line item and ending price…Shipping cost, tax etc

Also, you signed up for the ability to use their vault when you signed up for their website/auction.

Also, if you go to “YOUR BIDS” and filter to “WON” — you can click “checkout” on an item to view total invoice.

If you’ve paid, it will “say item unavailable.” If you haven’t paid, you will see invoice.

I’d check to make sure you actually paid and then check to make sure your email address is accurate in your account if you didn’t get a confirmation email on payment. Everyone I know has gotten that email so far.

I did checkout on the item again and it does say item unavailable so it looks like I paid. I’m darn positive I paid too but the charge isn’t showing up as made or even pending. Hopefully just a lag. Will report the conclusion - not an insignificant chance that I did something wrong.

What he said.

Why do we choose to do business with these people? It is almost like we go out of our way to lift the biggest slime-ball’s to the top of this hobby/industry!

You know the answer, Rhett.

The pwcc issues sort of pre-date me getting back into collecting but I’ve read up on it a bit. Scary stuff but one thing I’ll say is I hope to not have to worry about the seller all that much. If they are selling me a graded card I can do research on it and life will be ok. If there’s an issue with the card inside the holder and it shouldn’t have received the assigned grade my first thought goes to thinking there’s an issue with the grading company that needs to be fixed. Just my two cents.

Note: If anyone sells me a reasonably priced 33 Goudey and/or 48 leaf Ruth I promise I will never look to pwcc again.

There may be an issue with the grading company, but now (hypothetically) you're the one with the bad card and good luck getting the grading company to help you.

I would guess most collectors are not doing any research before buying those slabs. Kudos to you if you are.

I've had two gorgeous mid grade leaf Ruth 48's in the past few months, and a few Goudey Ruths coming up in November.

I find it hard to believe you can't find these cards at better than PWCC prices.

Serious question. What if the majority of collectors today simply don't care if a card was "restored" or not? What if they only care about how it looks and that it is slabbed and that there is a market/demand for it?

I'm not belittling the opinions of the purists, they're certainly entitled to their preferences, but in nearly every other hobby, "alterations" or "restorations" or whatever else you want to call them are widely accepted. Sometimes it just feels like the purists are attempting to demand their preferences on the masses. But what if it's actually the purists who are outnumbered?

I personally don't care about the majority of the alterations I've seen. Hell, I've even been buying up some pretty big cards in 'authentic' slabs lately (52T mantle, 52T mays, 48 leaf Jackie, 33 Goudey Ruth, an MJ/Lebron RC dual auto card, and more, all in authentic slabs). In many cases I actually prefer the restored card to the "before" pictured cards in a lot of the BODA posts. That 52 Mantle card on Blowhard that started much of this controversy is a prime example. Give me the "restored" version of that card all day long. I'd even pay top dollar for it. Those alterations don't bother me one bit. As long as it's well-centered with good eye appeal, crease free, and measures to size, that's all I care. I don't know what percentage of collectors in this hobby don't care about these alterations, but I guarantee it's a much much higher percentage of people than one would think if their only exposure to the hobby was through the forums. All those BODA threads, while ultimately informative and helpful, are just filled with the same dozen or so voices constantly regurgitating the same arguments over and over and they all just circle jerk together while they play whack-a-mole on anyone with a dissenting opinion. A very small number of people are responsible for well in excess of half the content in those threads, and many are extremely rude, aggressive, and abrasive toward anyone with a different opinion. It pushes people away. It's like the Twittersphere of this hobby. Just a bunch of monkeys throwing shit at each other. I believe if it was a more open discussion with dissenting views being tolerated, we'd see a much more healthy debate and far more people chiming in who aren't bothered by all these altered cards. But posting in those threads is like walking into a landmine field. So people just avoid it altogether.

Don't get me wrong. I still avoid rattlers. I still avoid hideously recolored cards. But it's because they look mangled that I don't want them in my collection. But if I were at a show and the dealer told me that the raw 1954 Topps Al Rosen card in VG-EX condition I'm interested in buying for $5 was previously oversized and stuck out like a sore thumb in a stack so he micro trimmed 1/32" off the bottom and now it measures correctly to size, I honestly couldn't care less as long as it wasn't noticeable, and I would gladly put it in my set to replace an off-centered copy with a crease that hadn't been altered. If a card has been altered, but the alteration is undetectable, then what difference does it make? Honestly? At what point are you guys just yelling at clouds?

The Goudey Ruths have been pulling premium prices at every AH I've been following this past year. I don't think there's an end in sight to that either. I say get em while you still can.

I don't know if you're being sincere or not here, but I'll respond as though you are.

As 'notfast' noted above, all of this stuff is pretty easy to locate either on the website or through the email invoice they sent you. You noted earlier that in the 'Accounting' tab on your account, all you see is the total due, with no other itemized details about your purchases. But if you look literally right below that total there is a bright yellow button that reads "$ Pay Now" and a link directly above and to the right that reads "VIEW MORE". Did you not even try clicking either of these? They both take you right to the invoice page which, again, has big bright yellow links that read "VIEW" and "PAY". Either link gives you a fully itemized invoice with each card, shipping fees, taxes, etc. It also shows you the shipping address. And just in case you can't navigate two bright yellow links positioned right next to your total, they also sent you an email invoice that has a link at the bottom, again, in a bright yellow 'can't miss it' box that also takes you to an itemized invoice. And at checkout, you can select your shipping address just like you would with any other online retailer.

I get the frustrations about emailed invoices and website invoice hammer prices not matching up for some items. However, if you can't even find your invoice, that's on you, not PWCC. They couldn't have possibly made these links easier to find.


https://i.imgur.com/snVj9jk.png

https://i.imgur.com/DMHztQS.png

There's a difference between cards that are altered being sold in slabs that actually indicate it compared to altered cards that end up with numeric grades (and sell for way more than they did before altering). If the alteration is disclosed (either by the seller or through being graded as such), then people can make up their own minds about buying the card or not with full knowledge of what has been done to it. I think the issue most people have is when a card has been altered and graded without the alteration being disclosed.

I believe your question answers itself. The nouveau entrants aren't collectors, they are investors.

They are certainly free to do as they wish, including never actually handling their cards, sorry assets. But, many long time collectors, who actually love the hobby as something more than a store of value, are getting squeezed out. And, it isn't limited to the premium cards. It has filtered down to the shallow end of the hobby pool, where I swim. The prices on vintage commons have increased to the point that I am making almost no progress on set builds. When the elephants fight, it is the grass that gets trampled.

Exactly. It's all about disclosure. If it isn't disclosed, it's fraud. Many of us aren't interested in rewarding the skill of some criminal who can make cards look prettier. Originality may not be important to others, I get that. But that choice should be made on an informed basis, not on the basis of deception.

Some people apparently do not care if they have been deceived as long as it appears, to them, they have not been, either through denial or lack of sophistication or experience.

To Snowman's point I think there is a new breed of buyer AND a new sentiment among many collectors who really do not care what has been done to the item they are buying. They are putting 100% in the faith in the label and the faith that others have 100% faith in the label. They have the ability to write a check and it is no longer important if what they paid for is actually what the label says it is.

It is exactly why PWCC and others are absolutely killing it despite having been associated with having committed fraud.

It is indeed ironic that the company supposedly established to stop/counter card doctoring has become the means of perpetuating and expanding it. Oh well.

Yup. They have all legitimized lack of authenticity but not just with cards. It is good for them. Good for the buyer and good for the seller. So what that the whole system is compromised. Just believe!

+100

The issue is not whether the card is altered, but whether an “expert” authentication and grading company has certified/slabbed an altered card with a numerical grade, implying it has not been altered.

There are countless examples of PSA reaffirming their grades in the face of overwhelming evidence of grading. Beckett snd SGC are hardly clean themselves (although I openly favor SGC and think they do the nest job/make the fewest mistakes?

How does a Viking funeral go?

I’m pretty sure lots of fire is involved.

So it was a PWCC rep who was advising Dustin Hoffman in THE GRADUATE, while Anne Bancroft was otherwise occupied.

Lol. He was waaaaay ahead of his time :)

I think its interesting that their default is when you buy a card it goes to their vault.. and when you sell a card the money stays in your PWCC account..

So I never get a payout when i sell a card and i never physically receive a card when I buy one.. those are horrible default settings!

Maybe PWCC can do derivatives next. I'm wanting to buy May 2022 call options on Ja Morant PSA 10 Prizm rookies. :eek:

Ha. Seriously that’s an untapped market and probably not far off. I’d like to short Zion Williamson (and I went to Duke).

And that is a huge part of the issue/problem in that the TPGs are all for profit businesses, so they only do so much and spend so much time looking at each and every card they grade so they can turn a profit. They don't have the resources, time, and people to research each and every card like the BODA guys do in their findings of likely cards that have been altered/doctored before ending up with a numerical grade in some TPG's holders.

And the TPGs aren't stupid. Even when all the BODA evidence is shoved in their faces, they are going to ignore or deny it. Because if they ever actually listen and start acting on what the BODA guys are saying, that lets the entire hobby community know that they can't do as good of a job as the BODA guys, who do all their work free. And if people start realizing the are admitting to their inabilities to properly grade and authentic cards, it might actually turn more people off to using them in the future.

Even with all the BODA evidence and scans showing the likeliness of cards being altered, yet getting graded and slabbed with numerical grades, it could still be nearly impossible to legally prove that with every BODA outed card. A good defense attorney would just bring out multiple examples of a card that BODA says was altered and then slabbed. They'd parade them all in front of a jury and say they all look alike to a card the BODA guys are saying was altered, and do you really think some random jurors are going to be able to really tell the difference? I sure wouldn't bet on it. So what do the attorneys do next, call in the experts to tell the jury their opinion on the cards. Oh wait, that's right, the TPGs are the recognized and accepted experts when it comes to grading and authentication. The BODA guys are just independent guys doing this on their own. And I also don't see any one TPG coming to testify against another, as they are likely aware they all have erroneously graded tons of altered cards over the years. So by one TPG testifying against another, they could be putting their own company's neck on the chopping block and open themselves up to similar charges and litigation in the future. All the TPGs have likely had these discussions multiple times with their own legal counsels already, and will probably just say nothing else, and simply continue to give their "opinions" on cards, just as they've been doing all along. Remember, all they give is an opinion.

Now if they (the TPGs) really wanted to do something to actually try to combat and stop the misgrading of altered cards, this is where some of those earlier discussions about using AI to grade cards could actually prove useful. It was brought up, by Snowman of all people, that using AI for grading wouldn't probably work due to the time, effort and human interaction involved for it to function properly, and even then the probabilities for errors still likely wouldn't be as low as for a human grader. However, it was brought up that through such AI technology you could tremendously magnify scans of cards, down to the individual pixel level, and at such a magnification level it turns out that each card is actually unique after all. The AI scan could possibly be treated like a fingerprint or DNA to then legally prove a card had been altered. That way if someone submitted an altered card, the TPG's AI system could definitively match it to the unaltered version of the and alert the TPG that something had been done to the card. The problem though is that for this to work and catch the alteration, the TPG that the altered card was submitted to would have already had to have scanned the unaltered card into their AI system. So card doctors could still easily continue altering and submitting cards for grading. They'd just have to make sure they started with raw cards that likely weren't scanned into any TPG's AI system, or if they did acquire a graded card to crack out and alter, just be sure to submit it to a different TPG than the one who's holder they originally cracked it out of.

So at the end of the day, using the AI like this probably won't help entirely stop alterations after all. Knowing cards were now being subjected to such AI scans, I doubt card doctors would be dumb enough to submit an altered card right back to the same TPG that had already graded it, and I certainly don't see someone doctoring/altering a card more than once. But if TPGs did start using this AI technology and commenced taking such detailed scans of every card they handled and graded, it could eventually start to catch some altered cards. Unfortunately, it woud most likely come from innocent buyers who unknowingly purchased an altered card in a graded holder, and they go to have it crossed over to another TPG or try to resubmit it for a possible grade bump, and it gets tagged as having been altered. In this case with fingerprint/DNA type of proof, the innnocent owner may have a better chance to go back to a seller for some justice, which in turn might get more sellers concerned and cautious in dealing with or being involved with these card doctors to begin with. This would work better if all the TPGs did such AI scanning, but I doubt they'd ever share such technology and cooperate with each other. In fact, if say only one TPG were to commence using such AI technology, I could see it improving the reputation and desirability of the slab for that TPG over those of other TPGs as many people would likely assume card doctors would push more of their altered cards towards the TPGs not using the AI technology.

The other big problem is that there are likely more altered cards out there in TPG numerically graded slabs than we can ever imagine. And there is pretty much nothing any of us can do about it, despite all the BODA threads and outed cards.

Serious question, to anyone's knowledge, has any card outed by the BODA guys ever taken a serious hit in a sale or auction because it was outed as possibly altered? I'm going to guess for the most part, no. Maybe a few potential buyers/bidders that were aware of the issues stayed away. But I'm guessing there were more than enough bidders/buyers that didn't know, or care, to still get the sellers a final price around what they were expecting. So really, anyone know an owner taking a hit for an outed card by the BODA guys?

Which leads me to another question. What if some seller takes a big hit on selling a BODA outed card in an auction, and finds out from the winning bidder they (and everyone else) now think it is altered because of what they heard on Blowout, or even here on Net54, could the BODA guys (or anyone else passing the info along) possibly be found liable for the loss suffered by the card's owner? Just like a TPG, the BODA guys are just giving their opinion. And I think that despite the evidence the BODA guys put out there, not entirely sure what they are claiming can be definitively and legally proven. So again, just curious if a seller lost enough to make it worthwhile to sue, think they'd have any chance of success against the BODA guys, or possibly others?

Ha!

Why not, they're already doing the equivalent of margin loans.

And I even said elsewhere I wouldn't be surprised to see them at some point have people just open accounts with them and deposit money into it, and then they go out and buy cards (or even partial interests in cards) for those people because they don't know what cards to buy themselves. These people could even use loan money from other items in the vault to put the cash in these "investment" accounts, and really make them margin accounts. And if they had enough people with enough money looking to do this, I could easily see them pooling such funds to buy these people something like the restored Wagner in the SCP auction. They wouldn't necessarily need to charge any type of investment fee as they'd eventually get the buyer's commission when they ultimately sold the card(s) they bought. Plus I'm guessing there is an interest charge on the loans.

However, doing things like derivatives or investment type accounts, where they pick and choose cards for people, may actually cross a line to where they would have to legally register as some type of investment advisory firm, have employees get licensed, and the whole nine yards. Somehow, I don't think they want to go down that rabbit hole, at least not yet. LOL

I'm pretty sure most slot machines now don't give out money automatically when you win, you have to press a button to get your winnings out. That way, if you don't see and touch it, it's easier to just keep spending it. Same idea as what PWCC is doing with keeping your money in their account.

Earning interest? Cant you buy pwcc bonds as well?

Well they are loans, aren't they? And I would think they would have something in writing and not just be handing money over to people.

Put it this way. Even if they didn't actually list interest in their loan agreements with customers/consigners, the IRS could still impute interest using the AFR for the month the loan is made, and then based on how long the loan is for.

And don't go giving them ideas about bonds, or think of that as a big joke. If they're making loans for some of the large amounts people were speculating they were handing out, unless they were sitting on a huge pile of cash to make those loans, I'm guessing they're either working with a bank and have some kind of credit line or facility in place, and/or possibly have others investing in or loaning money to them (not too far fetched from your bond idea). In fact, the idea of others loaning or investing money with them actually makes more sense than them funding everything with a credit line/facility from some bank. I have no idea how well off the owners are to be able to pledge assets to be able to collateralize a credit line with a bank. Their business itself probably doesn't really have any major assets beyond possibly land and a building(s) they may own. They aren't going to be heavy with equipment, and I doubt they have any significant inventory as pretty much everything they sell or have in the vault belongs to their customers and consigners, not them. Now they will show the loans owed to them as assets, but no bank can rely on third party loans receivable like that alone as sufficient to collateralize loans then made to PWCC. Especially when the underlying assets for everything ends up being sportscards. That is not the kind of asset bankers will likely know much about, and I would definitely feel it is not the kind of assets they'd want to end up owning if the worst case scenario ever happened. So I really don't know what PWCC is doing, but would be surprised if they don't have outstanding bonds/loans held by somebody, to allow them to operate.

There's an example in the casino memorabilia collectibles hobby that I think parallels either where this hobby currently stands or is at least destined to land. There are a lot of people who collect casino chips, myself included. Every year in Vegas, there is a chip convention, which is their equivalent of the National (albeit much smaller). Extremely rare and valuable chips trade hands at dealers' booths just like cards do at sports card conventions. The main difference is that casino chip collectors have rejected the slabbing of casino chips by a TPG. However, a chip's overall condition still affects the value of a chip. But in that hobby, nearly everyone cleans their chips if they are dirty. There are countless forum threads or YouTube videos teaching people how to clean their chips, and everyone in that hobby discusses it regularly. I have an ultrasonic cleaner that I'm constantly loaning to friends who use it to clean the chips in their collection. I've even made videos for people about how to do it. Some ignoramus over at Blowhard even attempted to "call me out" as a conman by linking to it on Blowhard, saying "see, he even alters casino chips!" as if anyone cares. But in that hobby, not only are people ok with cleaning their chips, nearly everyone prefers it. A chip's value is determined by how much wear the chip has, not whether or not it has been cleaned (or "altered" as some baseball card enthusiasts would charge). However, every year at the chip convention there is this one dealer who sets up his booth and announces with pride to any prospective buyers that his chips haven't been cleaned, unlike all the other chips at the convention and are thus in their "orginal" state and untainted. He boasts this as a point of pride and prices them at a premium over his neighboring dealers because in his eyes, that makes them worth more. He's the only one left out of a small handful of chip dealers over the years who still thinks this way. Nobody else in the hobby gives two shits about it though, and if they buy a chip from him (which almost nobody ever does because his prices are too high) then they're just going to roll their eyes as they overpay and then take the chip home and clean it before adding it to their display case at home. It's pretty funny. Whenever I read through the comments on the Blowhard forums, I always picture that guy with his dirty chips yelling at clouds. I bet he wants to turn the everyone else in to the cops for committing "fraud" with their cleaned "altered" chips that nobody else even thought about disclosing because nobody cares.

If any of you ultra purists want a sneak peek of the future of this hobby, just fly into Vegas the 3rd week of June next year and head on down to the South Point Casino to check out the chip convention and look for our friend. You can't miss him. He's the guy with the dirty chips and no one standing in front of his booth.

If a card has been altered and looks mangled, the market will adjust for it. If someone gets scammed by a counterfietter or by someone recoloring or rebacking a card, there are legal recourses they can pursue. If a card has been altered but that alteration cannot be detected, then what difference does it make? If you don't trust the opinions of the TPGs, then you don't have to play that game. Feel free to buy and sell everything raw and trust your own judgment. The TPGs are just trying to render an opinion and the hobby has chosen to value those opinions. They're just people like you and me though at the end of the day. They're not infallible. It doesn't make them criminals just because people can "sneak one past the goalie", or even if they can "sneak one past the goalie" with regularity. They're just offering opinions. Hell, it doesn't even make the person who altered a card a criminal. If you honestly think that a court of law is going to find someone guilty of a crime because they bought a baseball card, cleaned it, and then resold it for more money, I think you're delusional. When someone does this in the casino chips collection hobby, it's called a "cleaning fee", and people are happy to pay more for chips that have been cleaned. If some dumbass tries to clean a chip by tossing it in a bucket of Clorox Bleach, then they're going to ruin that chip and its resale value will be greatly affected as a result. Same with this hobby. If someone tries to clean a card with some magic potion of harsh chemicals that end up ruining the card, then the market value of that card will plummet, slabbed or unslabbed. People don't like washed out looking cards any more than chip collectors want washed out looking chips. But if you still want to complain because when is able to clean a card safely, without the use of harsh chemicals, restoring it to its original state before little Billy spilled his hot cocoa on it then you've just become the old man yelling at clouds. It also doesn't make the TPGs immoral or incompetent because they couldn't detect that the card was cleaned. But if you think you can detect all these alterations with your eagle eyes, then go start up the BODA grading company where you can research every submission for 2 hours straight, scouring the internet for possible matches before giving it the BODA seal of approval (that is, until the 'before' photo later surfaces... oops, now what?). Maybe you can get a nifty little sticker to put on it like Mike Baker does? Perhaps it will demand a premium? (I know where I'll place my bets on that wager). But if you don't like the opinion of a TPG, then just get another one or don't get one at all. Who cares? At the end of the day, it's just a card. But most of us value their opinions a lot more than 'jumpinJimmy123' on eBay who lists his VG 3 cards as "near mint" on eBay. But that doesn't mean I'm buying a PSA card blindly just because it's in their holder. I'm still going to examine it for myself to see if it meets my standards.

Response back from PWCC
 

After several requests from PWCC asking for some sort of documentation showing bid history or why the "Congratulations! You've Won!" email along with requests for my PWCC "rep" to contact me, this is the email I received:

"Sorry for any concern caused. Sadly we have to honor the high bid. Please feel free to review our Marketplace Security page on our website to see the steps we have taken to secure our Auction. Please also feel free to reach out to Max and he will be happy to discuss this with you!

https://www.pwccmarketplace.com/marketplace-security

Robby Rittenhouse
PWCC Marketplace"


I have gone ahead and paid for the item given the low dollar amount and have requested that PWCC delete my account.

I am not alleging fraud in this case but I do not trust their platform and found the whole process suspect. I would not recommend buying from the auctions not matter how good of a "deal" it appears to be.



Just to make sure I am in compliance with forum guidelines, my real name is Jim McKinley.

Travis, I believe you are not accounting for an important distinction between paper/cardboard ephemera and poker chips, which, if my research is correct, have been made for a very long time with materials like plastic or ceramic.

As a collector of ephemera, it seems to me self-evident that it is not possible to "restore [it] to its original state" as you propose. These are documents from another time which have aged, not shiny objects to be polished or trimmed around the edges to look "better".

I don't doubt that there are many who would agree with you, but that's my two cents.

Different hobbies, different mentalities. Most of us were taught to prize originality and to reject most alterations, and to prefer differentiation according to which cards had better survived the test of time, rather than by the quality of alterations and pure looks. At some level there is an arbitrariness to it I suppose, and a new generation is free of course to reject it and to prefer the better repaired/better looking cards, but that doesn't make my ethos stupid.

As I said two plus years ago to the NY Times reporter, and I stand by it,
“Originality is the bedrock of the hobby, and it all flows from there. Most people place a premium on originality and don’t want altered cards.”

Were I interviewed today, I would add that there does seem to be a significant group that doesn't really care as long as the alteration isn't too obvious.

You received an email saying you won on an item you didn’t win?

There's nothing inherently wrong with alterations-- so long as they are disclosed.

That disclosure rule is absolute in all areas of collecting, including in areas where alterations (restoration, etc.) are common and accepted.

Funny how 99 percent of the time with cards, they aren't.