Tim,

Great info, but have a follow-up question though. The W711 cards appear to have been issued as three distinct, separate sets with the first issued in 1938, second in 1939, and third in 1940, at least according to the old SCD catalogs. So were the W711 cards supposedly being distributed by the French Bauer dairy for all three years/types, or possibly only for one (or two) of those years/types? And if not for all three, can we tell for which year(s)/type(s) they were?

We know the French Bauer Dairy had some advertising interaction with the Reds team, or at least some of the Red's players, when they put some Red's players on their milk bottle caps, but that wasn't till 1963. If the dairy was actually responsible for producing and distributing any of these W711 cards, wouldn't it make sense for them to also have the French Bauer name at least somewhere on the cards to enhance their advertising worth? If French Bauer went to the trouble and expense to have the cards produced, adding their name would be a nominal cost, at worst. That said, is it possible that the Cincinnati team was the primary producer and issuer of these W711 cards after all, and that maybe the team then also made them available to local companies like the French Bauer Dairy to use and help distribute them? Maybe French Bauer was an advertiser with the Reds team back then, and so got permission to use these cards as an incentive to get people to sign up for their delivery service. And if true, there may have been other local Cincinnati businesses distributing these W711 cards also. Just speculating.

Oh! - I would be remiss in not mentioning - the greatest prewar thing I ever (briefly) owned was an E92 Dockman Cy Young. It was raw, and I had no clue what I had. I forget what I paid for it, but it was probably around $500. This was also 20 some years ago. I kept it for awhile, and later sold it in the early days of me having an eBay account. I made maybe a couple hundred bucks on it.

A few months later I was browsing random things - and come across the exact Dockman Young I had - I could tell by the centering and an identifying mark on the back - in a PSA 5 slab. Whoops. I think it sold for more than 2 grand - and again this was forever ago. :eek:

Thanks for the info and posting the image of the article, and thanks to Mr. Bumpus for originally sharing it as well. Because of the scarcity of some players, it makes one think that these could have been issued on a weekly basis. All the previous info I remember indicated it was a box set available at the ballpark. But perhaps these could have also been distributed as mentioned through the dairy, and perhaps even individually or in a group as a giveaway at the park.

I have always liked the critters, no matter how they were distributed...they have great images of the players, and are just a cool group of cards.

Brian

No problem John, all collectors are welcome. Like you, I first started collecting what I initially thought of as "vintage" beginning with the '56 Topps set, for the year I was born. That was about 30 years ago. All the cards, comic books, and other things I had aquired back mostly in the 60's were set aside and forgotten about as I got older, discovered girls, and eventually went to colllege. Then in the late 70's my parents moved, and my Mom lived up to the old cliche' and threw my collections out. Today, in addition to my pre-war collection, I also have quite a few 50's, 60's, and 70's sets, and many near complete partial sets from then as well. Both main sets and many of the oddballs like stand-ups, rub-offs, stamps, coins, and.....well, you get the picture.

I even have some newer, what I call specialty sets I've collected and work on, like the '97 Donruss Signature Series autographed red base set. Got them all except for a short printed Edgar Martinez auto card, which I've been looking for since the set came out in '97. Or a throwback to vintage with my 2002 Topps 206 collection of just all the autographed and game used cards. Have every single one of those as well, except for one short printed Honus Wagner bat relic card. Been looking for it since 2002, and have only seen one for sale in all these years. The guy wanted about what a really nice condition (PSA 6 or 7) T206 red Cobb would sell for today. I said "No thanks!", and am still looking.

So I am also into a lot of the post-war cards just as are you. And my mention of the 2002 Topps 206 set was to also bring up how even with modern card issues there are still references and throw-backs to pre-war. In fact, I think that 2002 Topps set was the first time anyone had ever done buybacks and inserted and distributed real T206 cards in a modern card issue. The way Topps inserted the cards into a modern size card or card holder, whatever you want to call it, I thought was ingenious and turned out very well. (Often wondered why no one ever came out with such a holder anyone could use to store their tobacco cards in so they'd display nicely in the standard 9 pocket pages.) So question for T206 (and T205) collectors, do you like collecting these Topps issued T206 buybacks, and do you leave them in the Topps issued card holders or break them out raw? And never seen one done, but would a TPG allow you to have a T206 buyback card graded and encapsulated by them while remaining in the Topps issued card holder? I've seen where SGC has graded some of the game used relic cards from the Topps 206 set with and without the standard sized holders being encapsulated along with the T206 sized relic cards.

I was also wondering if there were any niche collectors that specifically go after these prewar Topps buyback cards. Seems like any time I've seen one go up for auction on Ebay, it ends up selling for a lot more than what I would have thought the actual T206/205 card would have sold for raw.

And just for the record, I also am against having card companies cut up old jerseys and bats to just put little pieces of them in modern cards, especially for players like Ruth, Cobb, and Wagner. So please don't start admonishing me for collecting something like that. The card companies figured they can promote their products and make a lot of money by doing it, which they have been doing since the first game used cards started coming out back in the 90's. That horse left the barn a long time ago and has long since died, so no reason to keep beating it now. And like was said in the recent thread about the member who destroyed a Hal Chase T206 card after finding out what a not so nice person Chase was, he paid for it and can do what he wants with it. And if the card companies pay and own these bats and jerseys, they can unfortunately do what the want with those items as well.

Hi Bob,

Just wanted to point out that OldCardboard.com does have a page for W711 issues. See below...


.

Thank you for pointing that out, my bad. I just went to the checklist section looking for the set, and didn't see it. I'm going to have check out their site a lot more one of these days. It is a great site and reference source.

I've been at it for 45 years or so. Retired 10 years ago so have slowed down and sold most of my collection.

I currently own about 130 pre-war cards made up mostly with my 1911 Zeenut set (-2).

Over the years:

Built a T206 set (-4)
At one time had over 2,000 duplicate T206 cards
Built a C46 set
Built a 33G set
Built a 53B Color set
Built a 53B B/W sel
Built a 1911 Zeenut set (-2)
Built a Zeenut w/coupon complete run
Built a 59T set (still have it)
Built a Sporting Life Composite postcard set (-1 Detroit)


Many other cards have passed through my hands over the years. Hard to remember them all. It's been fun.

Survey says ...
 

I love reading all the posts here. I learn so much more than I can contribute, but I hope the knowledge (and wisdom!) I gain from all of you I can pay forward to someone else down the line....

My answers:

1. Bought my first pre-war cards in 1971 when I was 10 years old. Responded to an ad in the back of the Sporting News placed by Gar Miller. I bought a T206 Cobb red portrait (for 5 bucks!) as well as a 39 Play Ball Red Ruffing and 40 Play Ball Bill Dickey (even as a kid, I recognized the names of Yankees greats). That got me hooked. I kept collecting contemporary Topps cards but proceeded to gather as many low-grade T206 cards as my lawn-mowing and birthday money allowed. Took a break in the late 70s for college/marriage/kids, back in heavily (for me) a few years ago. Wishing I'd never left, even though I always kept close tabs on things in the hobby.

2. and 3. go together for me: I have 170ish pre-war cards right now. About 130 are T206. I just buy whatever strikes my fancy where they are concerned. I'm a Billy Southworth fan, so I will always be on the lookout for his cards (thank you, Mac, for the Zeenuts Southworth rookie!). And although I only recently bought my first Cracker Jack, I could see myself going full headlong that way.

4. For me, a "significant" card is one I cherish and never would part with. That includes my Cobb portrait, if only for sentimental reasons, my really nice 48 Bowman Musial (whom I remember fondly every time I look at that youthful face), 33 Goudey Dizzy Dean (also really nice), my five 1934 Butterfingers (particularly the Dean and Bottomley) and my dozen W512 strip cards. I know they are kinda unattractive to many, but they strike me like the kitschy art of that era -- and my Babe Ruth, from the peak of his heyday, was one of my first pre-war purchases as well.

I'm not gonna lie when I say collecting cards literally saved my sanity during the last 15 months. All of the Net54 folks have been a part of that. Thank you!
Mike Eisenbath

Nice post Mike, this is far and away the best place to talk baseball cards.

Steve,

That was an unbelievable collection, congrats. Now out of curiosity, of all the sets you did have, why hold on to the 1911 Zeenut set? Interesting choice.

Mike,

Great collection and stories, especially concerning the red Cobb for $5. Can understand why that card would be significant, and virtually priceless to you. And so glad to hear how collecting has helped you make it through the pandemic. Hang in there!

Good question Bob. Guess it's the love of the chase looking to someday complete it.

+1,000

Great Thread!

1. I have been a collector for 50 years, since I was 10 years old. Like many, I was inactive during my young adult years, and picked the hobby back up about 12 years ago. I started collecting pre-war about 6 years ago. I started with the Play Balls, then the Goudeys. I have not started on the cigarette cards yet - they seem like too much of a challenge for me.
2. Like others, I collect but don't really sell, so my peak number of pre-war cards is the same as my current number. Its right at about 1000 (including about 200 non-sports cards - I really like the 1938 Horrors of War set).
3. See #2
4. I am proudest of the Goudey Ruths and Gehrigs (I own all the Ruths and all but one of the Gehrigs). I also have a T206 Green Cobb portrait that I paid $5 for in about 1975 (ungraded but is probably a 1-1.5)
5. I am a set collector, so most everything is complete or nearly:
- 1933 Goudey (complete except for 192 Gehrig and Lajoie)
- 1934 Goudey (complete except for Greenberg)
- 1939 Play Ball (complete except for Williams)
- 1940 Play Ball (complete except for Dimaggio and Jackson)
- 1941 Play Ball (complete)

1. First prewar cards were four T206 commons (Alperman, Gilbert, Rhodes, Schreck). Bought them for $3 each from The Baseball Card Shoppe in Claremont, California around 1982.
2. Maxed out at over 500 prewar about seven years ago: Almost 450 different T206s, about 50 different HOFers from a variety of other sets and 20 or so different OJ Denver poses (I live about 30 miles from Denver so it’s a local history thing).
3. Have about 150 prewar right now. Kept all of the T206 HOFers (have added a few since) and about 50 of the tougher commons; also kept the OJ Denvers and a handful of the HOFers from other sets that I liked the best.
4. Have the T206 Cobby quartet, 2 Cys, 2 Mattys, 3 Naps, the WaJo portrait, a Goudey Ruth and Gehrig, and an E93 Wagner. Also have a really nice E120 Traynor that it took a while to find. Almost everything is EX or slightly better (except the OJs) which is my collecting wheelhouse.
5. No near complete sets, unless you count the T206 HOF subset where I am about 90% complete. Also have at least one pose of every OJ Denver player.

Nice collection Ed. Looks like you may be getting ready to start on your next set as well. If not tobacco cards, maybe the '41 Double Play set, or possibly the '34-'36 Diamond Stars set? Happy collecting.

Great collection Scot. You appear to be my opposite and go more for quality over quantity. There is no wrong way to collect!

Hi Bob, Thanks for the kind words. It seems to me like you have quantity AND quality! Scot

LOL Depends on how you define "quality" I guess Scot. To one person, having say an F-50 Yuenling's, an E103 Williams Caramel, and an E253 Oxford Confectionery card of Ty Cobb would maybe be considered as having quality cards. But to another person, having them all in a PSA or SGC 1 condition may not. I guess I've always equated "quality" more with the condition and shape the cards are in rather than who it is that is actually on the cards. Appreciate your kind words as well, and thanks to you, I may have to start rethinking about how I define "quality" from now on.

1. Since before the Flood.

2. Over 1,000 - Full Count days.

3. Now about 300.

4. Multi current examples from pre-war set: OJ to '41 Playball.

5. Best current cards are T3 Cobb, Turkey Red Cobb, '33 Goudy Ruth #53 &149, '33 and '34 Gehrig !60 and 37, respectively, and a '36 WWG Gehrig.

6. No complete sets at present.

Hey John, looks like you've got a really great collection of significant cards there. Awesome!!!

#1......My 1st pre-war card, which was acquired at the famous Willow Grove Show (Pennsylvania) in March 1981.

http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...aseblue50x.jpg


#2...... ?


#3......Approx. 3000 cards. Complete sets of N28, N29, N162, T209-1, 1933 and 1934 GOUDEY, 1935 DIA. STARS, 1939 - 1941 PLAY BALL.
And "complete" T206 sets...... PIEDMONT*, SOVEREIGN, SWEET CAPORAL Factory #30**. American Beauty 460 (73 of 74 cards) sub-set.


http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...nkSC150x30.jpg http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...SC150x30xb.jpg


#4.....Too many to list here.


#5..... ?


Foot notes....
* ...... 520 card set. All - PIEDMONT set (missing Plank and Wagner)
** ....468 card set. All - SWEET CAPORAL set (missing only Wagner)


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

Thanks for the feedback, Bob, and glad you like my 'set' of baseball cards of pro football players. So far I've only found a fraction of the cards I've identified but it is a fun run to work on. To answer your questions, I'm only focusing on pre-war so no Brian Jordan, Deion Sanders, or even Vic Janowicz in the set. I may expand to post-war later. For the most part I'm only looking for cards from the players playing days, so excluding coaching cards if they have them or modern tribute cards. The only exception is if a player doesn't have a card from their playing days ... then I'll look for a tribute card.

I'm always up for sharing! That's what the hobby is all about IMHO. I have this information in a table that shows the player's name, what pro football teams they played for in what years, what NL/AL teams they played for in what years, and what baseball cards I've been able to identify. I tried to upload this Word doc as an attachment to this message but it says 'invalid document type'. Maybe because it's a newer .docx format? The document is under the file size limit.

jeff

Ted,

Goes without saying you have an awesome collection. Everyone on here has heard your card knowledge and seen your posts of amazing cards you have, along with the stories of how you had started collecting as a kid from packs you bought yourself. What surprises me is hearing you didn't start collecting any pre-war cards till 1981. Always think of you as a pre-war T206 collector, now know better.

That is great Jeff. If someone is interested I'm sure they can try reaching out to out directlly and maybe have you email it to them.

Hi Bob

My 2 teenage Daughters started collecting BB cards in the 1970's. I credit them for getting me to start collecting Sports cards in 1977. We went to my parent's house and found
in the attic a "treasure chest" of all the cards from my youth.
BOWMAN's, LEAF's, TOPPS's, etc. from 1947 - 1952. From 1977 to 1981, I concentrated on completing those sets. Then in 1981, I attended my first major Show at Willow Grove,
and a whole new world of collecting was opened to me....pre-war cards.

Thanks,


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

Fantastic story Ted! Can never tire from hearing it.

The stories and collections shared here are outstanding. Great idea for a thread, Bob.

Jeff, if you save your Word doc as a pdf, you may be able to attach.

The 1940 Reds b/w set (Harry Hartman set) can routinely be found in boxed set form, with box. I would agree this was likely sold at or near the stadium.

But I have never seen a box for the 1938 set. I have never seen a complete set. This leads me to believe it is not connected with the team, the dairy connection seems more likely. Although I don't know why there is no advertisement.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

1. This is the toughest question for me to answer. I started collecting vintage cards in 1976-78, but took a hiatus off during the '80s and '90s, with the notable exceptions of buying a few Topps 1987 sets in '87 and a T206 Christy Mathewson card in 1990. I then resumed collecting vintage cards in 2003. So I guess it all amounts to about 20 years in total.

2. I've never owned too many - right about 200 is my max ever, but that number didn't last too long.

3. I currently have 142.

4. My most significant card is either my '33 Goudey Ruth or my T206 Cobb (Bat Off Shoulder).

5. My only prewar set is a 1934-36 Diamond Stars set of 96 (no repeated high-number prints)

Interesting factor. Can also see how with the years of distribution for these three different sets/types being all together (1938, 1939 and 1940), along with their limited distribution area, only including Cincinnati Reds players, and relative scarcity overall, it makes it somewhat easy to believe that the definitively known manufacturer and distribution method for any one of those years would readily be considered the same for all three sets/types. Even if that isn't accurate.

Still, even without evidence of of a box ever being used to distribute the 1938 set/type in, the fact that the 1938 and 1939 cards are virtually the same would only support the thinking that they were produced by the same manufacturer, and therefore more likely to have been distributed in a like manner over both years. I don't know any of the distribution details myself, but you specifically mentioned not knowing of any boxes existing for just the 1938 Type 1 cards. So does that mean that there are known and existing boxes for the 1939 and 1940 sets? And if so, and never having seen one of these boxes myself, how can you tell for certain that a box used for the 1939 set could not have been used for the 1938 set? (The 1940 cards were a different size, so the box for that set clearly would not have also been used for the 1938 and 1939 sets.) And isn't it also possible that even if no box was ever used to sell a 1938 set in that for that initial year they could have used envelopes instead to sell the sets in? I know, then why are there no existing envelopes? But if they did use envelopes, they could have been unmarked and have no specific way to identify and tie them to the 1938 set then. Also, a box from back then would have a much better chance of surviving till today than a much more fragile envelope. And these cards are already scarce so the number of boxes or envelopes originally sold wouldn't have been that great to start with, further decreasing the odds of examples of either still surviving till today. Or maybe that first year they only sold the cards individually, or possibly just handed them out for a while as a free giveaway at the ballpark. All good questions I think.

Regardless, any of these theories seem a lot more plausible than the one having the French Bauer Dairy beginning production of these cards in 1938 and then distributing them, probably one at a time, with their weekly milk deliveries. And then in the following year (1939), having the Cincinnati Reds team take over the production of these cards and continue producing them using the exact same design and player images for the most part, but now selling them as a box set. Something doesn't add up. I know there is that article that you posted, that came from Chris Gamble, saying the 1938 cards were in fact made and distributed weekly by the French Bauer Dairy, but where did that item come from? I went back and reread what you had initially said about Chris' posting, and noted you originally referred to it as an "advertisement". So I immediately assumed it was likely something from a credible, contemporary source, like a local newspaper or magazine. But then looked again at the item Chris had posted, and it is most clearly not an advertisement talking about the French Bauer Dairy now giving out cards of Reds players to hopefully get more people to sign up for their weekly milk deliveries. It actually reads more like a card issue description you'd see in the SCD catalog, or an article written in some more modern card publication by a writer explaining what they thought the origins of this set were. Do you have any more info on where (and when) this article came from, and who the author is? That would certainly help to possibly add a lot more credibility and veracity to what is being said about the 1938 set in it. And since it also seems pretty obvious that article was written sometime long after 1938, why no mention in it of the 1939 set and if that shouldn't also be primarily attributed to the French Bauer Dairy as well?

The similarity of the 1938 and 1939 W711 sets definitely ties their production together, and coupled with no direct mention of French Bauer Dairy on the cards themselves or in any other contemporary advertising that anyone is currently aware of, it seems most likely the Reds team would have been the primary party responsible for their production and distribution. However, it is also still possible that some of those 1938 cards were given away by the French Bauer Dairy, perhaps in conjunction with some kind of agreement or advertising partnership they may have had with the Reds team. But again, with no other surviving examples of ads, articles or other evidence from aroung 1938 mentioning the Dairy's involvement in such a promotion, it seems less likely to have been the case that the French Bauer Dairy was the principal distributor of these 1938 W711 cards, let alone their original producer.

And lastly, there is the description given for the 1938 W711 set in the old SCD catalogs. The catalogs were (and still are) widely known and owned by serious collectors throughout the hobby, and generally regarded as one of, if not the most, accurate and comprehensive reference source for vintage cards and sets ever published. The fact that over all the years the SCD catalogs were published showing the 1938 W711 cards were from a team issued set, and no one apparently ever came forward with this alternative origin for these cards actually being produced by the French Bauer Dairy, is extremely telling in my opinion. For had this alternate origin for the 1938 cards been put forward by anyone to the SCD catalog staff, and sufficient evidence or proof of it being true provided, I feel fairly confident that SCD would have revised and corrected the set's description in their catalogs, or at least included a mention of it as a possible alternative. Bottom line is, I can't believe no one wouldn't have told this to Bob Lemke, or his successors, and doubt this would have only now been found out, after the SCD catalog stopped being published.

You missed a post of mine stating that the screenshot supposedly comes from the 1982 Reds Yearbook. I don't collect yearbooks, so I wouldn't know.

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Rob,

Definitely still a great collection with some classic cards as your most significant. You can't deny the attraction to a Goudey Ruth, or a Cobb T206. And what do mean you don't have many pre-war cards? I think most people would feel having almost a couple hundred would be a pretty sizable collection. It can be the quality, and not just the quantity, that mekes up a great pre-war collection.

Heck, I've got a ton of pre-war cards and items, yet. I've never owned a Goudey Ruth or a T206 Cobb. I guess one of my collecting quirks is that I'm more attracted to the less popular and more obscure pre-war sets. Oh, I own some T206s and Goudeys, but just a handfull or so of each as type cards or examples. Seems like pretty much everyone here on Net54 collects and talks about T206s and Goudeys all the time. Probably a big reason I like a lot of the other non-mainstream sets a little more. Less competition for collecting them, and you have a chance to discover and learn things that not everybody knows. Plus, you've got to love some of the more diverse sets out there, like Rittenhouse Candy cards or Rinkydinky stamps, right. LOL

And your choice of the Diamond Stars set to be working on is a great one. Got to love their iconic art deco design and look. Love that set, and always thought it stood out from most others. Kind of like the '72 Topps set design, just one of a kind.

Thanks Ricky. I hope a lot of others are enjoying it as well, and will eventually chime in with their own stories and info. That is the nice thing about a thread like this, virtually everyone can contribute to it, and there are no wrong answers. LOL Take care.

Good thought! But pdf file size is too big to upload on Net54 as well. I put it in Google Docs for anyone who wants to view / download it

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1geZ...ew?usp=sharing

jeff

Very cool, Jeff!

Jeff,

Great list and info, and some really obscure names on there. That must have taken some real detective work and time to put together. Do have a question for you though, why isn't Earle "Greasy" Neale also on the list? Played in eight seasons with the Reds from 1916 to 1924 (plus 22 games with the Phillies in 1921), and pro football with the Canton Bulldogs in 1917 (alongside Jim Thorpe), the Dayton Triangles in 1918 (and was also their coach), and finally with the Massilon Tigers in 1919?

At first I thought maybe it was because he only played on some pre-NFL teams so you didn't count that. Then I noticed your list also included Ed Abbaticchio whose football playing days ended in 1900, so I ifigured that wasn't it. I seem to remember hearing somewhere that he may have been playing pro football under an assumed name because of amatuer rules that existed back then, and wondered if that may have something to do with it. Have to believe that if you do add him on to your list that he'd end up having more baseball cards than anyone else on it. Curious to find out why he's missing.

None of those things. I was reformating my list and it was a cut and paste error! Itshould be fixed now. Thank you for noticing that.

Can't leave Greasy Neale off the list as he is one of my favorite pre-NFL pros. Here are the cards I have of him so far.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw...-no?authuser=0

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw...-no?authuser=0

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw...-no?authuser=0

Also this great basketball image of him from a composite team item I have from his college days.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw...-no?authuser=0

jeff

Now that makes sense. LOL Couldn't believe you didn't have him on there as he's the only HOFer on there besides Halas and Thorpe.

Nice cards by the way. Believe there are a lot more with him out there.

Testing....

1 - 2 - 3

Yes, there are many others for Neale. I've missed on a few at auction over the yeras. I put the ones I know about in the checklist but am sure there are more.

Cal Hubbard is the only person in both the Pro Football HOF and Baseball HOF but he is in the Baseball HOF as an umpire. I have his 1955 Bowman umpire card but haven't included him in my list since he didn't play major league baseball.

jeff

I forgot about that, but since you specifically mentioned players only, I wasn't thinking of him. Good stuff.

Hi Ted, It's interesting how some things are similar but also different because of a different generation. I collected cards in the early 1980's when I was 9 and stuck with the current issues. Then in 2008, I found Net54 (the original website) and just like you, a whole new world of collecting was opened to me....pre-war cards. I learned a lot about the T206 set while reading your posts from the previous years, all the way to current times. Thank you for sharing your knowledge. You are one of the reasons I got into the T206 set. Now I'm out there sharing knowledge to others.

Hi Ron

I really appreciate your kind words.

And, thank you for the reciprocal exchange which the both of us have had over the years regarding tobacco cards. Especially, when you confirmed my mutually-exclusive theory
regarding the the latter print runs of the 350/460 Series of the T206 set with your complete run of the 28 subjects of the SWEET CAPORAL 350-460 Factory #30 cards.
It's amazing how we can solve a lot of "mysteries" of these tobacco cards on this forum when we share with each other really meaningful information.

Take care, my friend.


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

You speculated about the Reds set w-711. I asked the Reds HOF, and they had no information, only speculation as well. Here is their reply.

"Thanks for contacting the Hall of Fame. I must confess that I had forgotten about or missed completely the article in the 1982 Reds Yearbook that associated the W-711 series with a local dairy. After reading it (or re-reading it), I set about trying to find some period resource that might confirm or explain the reference in the article. The Reds’ archive do not contain internal company documents that go back that far and, Unfortunately, after searching through the Cincinnati Enquirer from 1938 and 1939, and reviewing all of the editions of “News of the Reds” published during those years, I could find no reference to the card set at all. There were many ads for French Bauer products in the newspapers but nothing related to the Reds. As far as the “News of the Reds” is concerned, I found multiple references to cut out schedule calendars that were available at no charge to fans at the ballpark as well as ads for Reds window decals that were offered at no charge at the park but nothing about the card set (sponsored or otherwise).

While I certainly acknowledge the possibility that I may have missed something, if we assume for a moment that I did not, I find it difficult to believe that a sponsored promotion related to the cards would not have been advertised in some way. The Enquirer was not the only paper in Cincinnati at the time but it was the preeminent morning paper and its Reds coverage was extensive. And if the cards were distributed as giveaways at the ballpark, I find it strange that there would have been no reference to the program in the Reds’ internally-produced newsletter. I have always understood the card set to be something that was sold at the souvenir stands at the ballpark and was never particularly bothered by the fact that no box or envelope associated with the set has surfaced. My thinking here has long been that anything they might have been housed in was likely devoid of any kind of marks or design and was therefore likely to have been discarded. There is much speculation here, of course, but I cannot find anything to support the assertion made in the yearbook article and it seems likely to me that I would have as I think such an association would have been promoted, especially since there is no sponsor or company name on the cards themselves. If I happen to find anything that sheds more light on this set and its production/distribution, I will certainly pass it along."

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Tim,

Thanks for checking this out with another reliable source, and a very interesting response you got back. I'm not surprised by the comments you got regarding the possibility that the French Bauer Dairy was not involved with the W-711 set. The fact that there were no references, markings, colloborative ads or articles that exist showing these cards were used by French Bauer for advertising purposes pretty much clinches it, at least for me, that the Dairy had nothing to do with this card issue. No company would put forth the time, effort, and money to create something like this with absolutely no mention of their name or product, or the existence of any supporting promotional ads or materials, being found anywhere.

What is very interesting though is that your source, the Reds HOF, goes on to also note that there is no evidence to definitively tie the 1938 W-711 cards to being issued by the team either. That is very surprising. The sources the Reds HOF referenced that did not confirm the 1938 and 1939 cards were associated with the Reds team are pretty compelling. I wonder if this lack of such evidence may help explain why the Reds' 1982 yearbook would have suggested these cards were associated with the French Bauer Dairy then. Is it possible whoever had written that yearbook article just assumed those cards were created and issued by an advertising company then, as they couldn't actually link them to the Reds team, and for whatever reason picked the French Bauer Dairy as that advertiser? That could have been an assumption based on other advertising promotions between the team and the Dairy that were known. Based on this information it makes you wonder if the W-711 issue was neither a Reds team or French Bauer Dairy issue at all.

Is it possible the cards were created by some unrelated company that profited by having them sold by vendors outside the Reds' ballpark? I can't imagine the team would have allowed such sales inside the ballpark, unless it was a team authorized issue or they were somehow getting a cut, in which case you would think there would have been some mention or other evidence of it in the team's records or files that the Reds HOF looked through. And the fact that these W-711 cards were apparently isued over two years (1938 and 1939) as two different types would also make you think the team was okay with them, even if created and sold by an unrelated company. Today if someone used a team's or player's image on something like this without the proper approval (and paying for it), they'd be immmediately shut down and sued in a heartbeat. I know things were much different back in the 1930's, but even so, would a team back then let someone do this for two years, with no action on their part or record of it at all?

At this point I feel fairly confident the French Bauer Dairy had nothing to do with creating the W-711 cards. Also confident the 1940 cards were an authorized and team created issue sold as sets. As to who actually was responsible for creating and distributing the 1938 and 1939 W-711 cards, that may still be up in the air after all. Even if the team wasn't directly responsible for creating and distributing them, I have to believe the Reds were somehow still involved or gave their permission in some way for someone else to create and distribute them. This could be one of those things that is never completely solved. If nothing else, a great topic for conversation and conjecture.

Friendly bump to see if others who originally missed getting in on this survey before would like to join in now. Survey questions/topics are back in post #1.

Wow, there are some fantastic cards in this thread. I love Bob's Exhibit vending machine.

I'm relatively new to Pre-War collecting. I've previously focused only on post-war. I initially dabbled without too much focus by I've begun concentrating on 3 sets (W554, T3 Turkey Red and 1916 Zeenut PCL).

1. How long have you been collecting pre-war cards?

18 months

2. What is the approximate largest number of pre-war cards/items you've
ever owned at any one time?

86 + 73 Pre War Pins (Sweet Caporal, Orbit Gum, Cracker Jack, etc)

3. Approximately how many pre-war cards/items do you currently still own?

86 + 73 Pre War Pins (Sweet Caporal, Orbit Gum, Cracker Jack, etc)

4. What is/are the most significant card(s)/item(s) you currently own?
(Not what you may have owned at one time.)

1911 T3 John McGraw
1932 Bulgaria Cigarettes Babe Ruth


5. What complete sets or near complete sets (say 75% or more) do you
currently own? (Again, not counting sets you used to own, and only
counting the baseball cards in multi-subject sets in determining the
percentage complete. And not including as sets any issue with only 1 or
2 listed baseball cards/items in it.)

1930 W554 (61% Complete)

1. How long have you been collecting pre-war cards?

I purchased a T206 Addie Joss when I was a kid. I started again around 2008.

2. What is the approximate largest number of pre-war cards/items you've
ever owned at any one time?

75 to 80

3. Approximately how many pre-war cards/items do you currently still own?

2 :(

4. What is/are the most significant card(s)/item(s) you currently own?
(Not what you may have owned at one time.)

My favorite obtainable card of all time is my 1921 E121 “Babe” Ruth series of 80. My next three significant cards are my 54 Topps Aaron, 55 Topps Clemente and (gulp) 2000 Bowman Tom Brady. I have always enjoyed Poor condition cards because they allow me to own a piece of history that I normally wouldn’t have been able to afford.


5. What complete sets or near complete sets (say 75% or more) do you
currently own? (Again, not counting sets you used to own, and only
counting the baseball cards in multi-subject sets in determining the
percentage complete. And not including as sets any issue with only 1 or
2 listed baseball cards/items in it.)

None. The oldest set I ever owned was a 1956 Topps set that I built and once I completed it I no longer enjoyed it and sold it soon after. That was it for me with set collecting. The hunt was more fun than owning it. I did once have about 40 or 50 1933 Goudey’s including three Ruth’s and a Gehrig but I lost interest. I do have a 1975 Topps set in poor to fair condition, lol.

Great items Gary. Good luck on the remainder of that W554 set, its a nice set.

Great items Eugene, and nothing wrong with the modern Tom Brady card in there. The 1956 Topps set is a fantastic set, and was the first set I ever completed. Good stuff. And need to get more pre-war cards so you can turn the frown upside down.

WOW

This is a Great Thread and lots of great stories and Great Cards

1. How long have you been collecting pre-war cards?

10 Years started because I was trying to Recapture my youth and get my Son into my interests (DID NOT WORK. Loves the Game but not so much the history or the collecting)

2. What is the approximate largest number of pre-war cards/items you've
ever owned at any one time?

Approx 60 although I have narrowed it down to focus on Some Key players and on the quality over the quantity.

3. Approximately how many pre-war cards/items do you currently still own?

Currently 17 and slowly climbing

4. What is/are the most significant card(s)/item(s) you currently own?
(Not what you may have owned at one time.)

For me the most significant card is the 1914 CJ Joe Jackson because of both my interest in Joe Jackson but also because of my father's time with me when I was a kid collecting cards and his love of the Crack Jack Cards.

5. What complete sets or near complete sets (say 75% or more) do you
currently own? (Again, not counting sets you used to own, and only
counting the baseball cards in multi-subject sets in determining the
percentage complete. And not including as sets any issue with only 1 or
2 listed baseball cards/items in it.)

None At this time

Thanks Jeff. Doesn't matter if you collect sets, type, HOFers, teams, whatever your niche, there is no wrong way to collect. I know you go for quality as opposed to quantity and have some great cards. Here's hoping your collection grows even more in the future.

Thanks Bob.

This is before card collecting really became organized and such a big business.

Actually what is funny is that my father told me to collect individual cards vs sets because individual cards are cheaper, will not be worth anything, and it is just for the fun.

Not sure but I think he might be a little off on his prediction

Aren't you glad you listened to your Dad and focused on the bigger name players though? Sounds like he knew something after all.

I think I read that this was in the 1982 Reds Yearbook. I have to wonder about how accurate the writer of that blurb was - Livengood played for the 1939 Reds, not the 1938 team - and how in the world would they get the information that only 5 Livengood cards are in collections, especially in the pre-internet says of the early '80s? Seems quite the reach.

I've heard the rumor of a dairy distributor too, but so far I've not seen evidence of that. I've tried searching the Cincy newspapers for 1938 & 1939 and seen no mention of cards being distributed, wither by the team or an entity like a dairy; of course that proves nothing.

You'd think that the dairy (maybe the French Bauer dairy in Cincy) would have some kind of advertisement on the cards somewhere.
Also - if the dairy distributed the cards weekly, how so? By mail-in requests? With delivery of dairy products?

Trying to figure out the distribution of the W711-1 sets is quite a puzzle!

I'm still trying to wrap my head around the 1938 & 1939 distribution. Some cards issue in both years have statistical/biographical changes on the back (Berger, Derringer, Frey, Goodman, Gamble, Lombardi, McKechnie, Myers, Riggs, Walters) - and Vandy has two different fronts - yet there are several that were supposedly issued in both years, yet I've seen absolutely no difference on the backs (Craft, Davis, Gowdy, Hershberger, McCormick, Weaver and maybe Grissom).

Did the distributor just have a bunch of extras around for these guys and thus didn't re-print them? Or were they really only issued in one year and not the next?

As you can tell I've become more than slightly obsessed about this set!

Tom

There are 12 cards that are featured in both the 1938 and 1939 W711-1 Reds sets that contain differences in their writeups on the back. Here are those cards and the differences between the two years (In most cases I have provided little snippets from the respective bios to identify them below):

Wally Berger:

1938 - "in a trade...in June"
1939 - "in a trade...in June, 1938"

Paul Derringer:

1938 - "Won 22 games...this season"
1939 - "Won 21 games...last year"

Linus Frey:

1938 - "only 25 now"
1939 - "only 26 now"

Lee Gamble:

1938 - "Syracuse last year"
1939 - "Syracuse in 1937"

Ival Goodman:

1938 - No mention of 30 homers
1939 - Mentions hitting 30 homers

Lee Grissom:

1938 - No mention of 1938
1939 - Mentions 1938

Ernie Lombardi:

1938 - No mention of 1938 MVP
1939 - Mentions 1938 MVP

Bill McKechnie:

1938 - "Last year he led..."
1939 - "In 1937 he led..."

Lloyd "Whitey" Moore:

1938 - "Last year with Syracuse"
1939 - "In 1937 with Syracuse"

Billly Myers:

1938 - "In his fourth year"
1939 - "In his fifth year"

Lee Riggs:

1938 - "In his fourth season"
1939 - "In his fifth season"

Wm. "Bucky" Walters:

1938 - "Won 14 games"
1939 - "Won 15 games"


And the following 6 are featured in both sets but have no differences in the writeups between the years:

Harry Craft
Ray "Peaches" Davis
Harry "Hank" Gowdy
Williard Hershberger
Frank McCormick
Jim Weaver


Still not sure about distribution of the set...this still remains quite the mystery.

Brian

Bob C.

Very late to the game:

1. How long have you been collecting pre-war cards?
My dad got me my first pre-war in 1982 - T-206 Oscar Stanage.

2. What is the approximate largest number of pre-war cards/items you've
ever owned at any one time? ~About 800 baseball and 1,400 non-sports

3. Approximately how many pre-war cards/items do you currently still own?
~ about the same as #2

4. What is/are the most significant card(s)/item(s) you currently own?
(Not what you may have owned at one time.)
W517 Gehrig, Ruths (35G and Sanella) and Stanages for sentimental value

5. What complete sets or near complete sets (say 75% or more) do you
currently own? (Again, not counting sets you used to own, and only
counting the baseball cards in multi-subject sets in determining the
percentage complete. And not including as sets any issue with only 1 or
2 listed baseball cards/items in it.)

T200 (missing 2)
35 Goudey 4 in 1
34-36 Diamond Stars
T218
Several non-sports - N3, T29, T52, T59, T60, T69, T70, T77, T99, T113
Several non-sport partials (>75%) - N21, N31, T6, T28, T51, T57, T108

Erik

Where the hell did Bob C run off to? Especially during tax season.

Even later to the game:

1. How long have you been collecting pre-war cards?
1989. Found a red background T206 Cobb at an antique store, and it became the first pre-war card I over-paid for.

2. What is the approximate largest number of pre-war cards you've ever owned at any one time?
408

3. Approximately how many pre-war cards do you currently still own?
408

4. What is/are the most significant card(s) you currently own?
Several significant HoFers, and a couple tough-Hindu backs

5. What complete sets or near complete sets (say 75% or more) do you currently own?
408 T206s, all with Howe McCormick's stamp on the back (barely qualifies ... the collection sits at 78% of a complete set (522 cards as the McCormick-Howe Mercantile didn't sell Polar Bear, so a complete set is short two guys.))

Ed

I’ve admired and enjoyed watching you progress on the Howe’s journey from afar.

Very cool way to collect T206. I’ll be rooting for success on your journey.

Matt Galvin

Hi Brian,
Your list of back variations matches mine. However, I haven't seen an example of the Grissom that does NOT mention 1938. Do you by chance have one? Or have you seen one?

The few times I've seen a Grissom on eBay, every one of them mentions 1938. My copy mentions 1938 as well. Makes me wonder if I'm chasing a phantom card that doesn't really exist - or if it's just very, very rare.

The other card that is on both the 1938 and 1939 sets is the Vander Meer; the backs are the same, but one is a pitching pose on the front and the other is a portrait.


Tom

Because of the photo differences, the Johnny Vander Meer is the easiest one to figure out which year it belongs to. Its existence makes you wish they had used different photos on all the repeat players in 1939.

I do not have a 1938 Grissom (no mention of 1938 on back). My thought is, if it does exist, it is a tough one that should be snagged, no matter what condition it is in.

Brian

I think I have one. I'll take a peek when I get home. I sold a few 3 yrs ago, and I'm not sure if I still have it.
Attachment 617867

Sent from my SM-G9900 using Tapatalk

Personally, I think these 3 are more difficult to find. My Weaver has another card adhered to the back.
Attachment 617868

Sent from my SM-G9900 using Tapatalk

Late to the thread
 

I missed this one the first couple of time around, I guess ... odd as I'm here a lot.

As to the original question:
1. How long have you been collecting pre-war cards?

About 25 years

2. What is the approximate largest number of pre-war cards/items you've
ever owned at any one time?

Nearly 1000 cards

3. Approximately how many pre-war cards/items do you currently still own?

About 800 cards

4. What is/are the most significant card(s)/item(s) you currently own?
(Not what you may have owned at one time.)

Some miscut T207's that show cards in different orientations: both horizontal and vertical.

5. What complete sets or near complete sets (say 75% or more) do you
currently own?

T207 x3 - working towards front/back master (mostly).

Only need 30 cards across Napoleon, Anonymous (Fac 25) and Anonymous Factory 3 (Recruit) subsets.

Its "mostly" as I don't plan to go after any RedCross (uniqueness) and Lewis no-emblem because ...

1. How long have you been collecting pre-war cards?

Since 2021. Really loved getting back into cards since my childhood days of collection junk wax.

2. What is the approximate largest number of pre-war cards/items you've
ever owned at any one time?

I had 40 T206 commons when I started out in pre-war, but just recently sold them off to pick up a T206 Matty White cap. Very happy about it.

3. Approximately how many pre-war cards/items do you currently still own?
I currently have 19 prewar cards, 10 T206 Hall of Famers, and the other 9 are vintage track cards, which I have really grown to love

4. What is/are the most significant card(s)/item(s) you currently own?
T206 Matty White Cap, T206 Matty Portrait, T206 Speaker

5. What complete sets or near complete sets (say 75% or more) do you
currently own? None, but currently working on T206 HOF'ers, E229 track, 1956 Topps, and the "Chariots of fire Run" of Eric Liddell, Harold Abrahams, Lord Burghley, E.A. Montague, and Henry Stallings.

Just one small Stallings card away from finishing the Chariots of Fire run!

Man, what a cool thread. I loved reading what folks collect, especially when it comes to sets.

1. How long have you been collecting pre-war cards?

Exclusively, around 2015

2. What is the approximate largest number of pre-war cards/items you've
ever owned at any one time?

40,000-50,000 cards, I'd guess, though more than half are UK issues that are worth less, including a good bit of non-sports stuff.

3. Approximately how many pre-war cards/items do you currently still own?

Same answer as No. 2

4. What is/are the most significant card(s)/item(s) you currently own?

I don't have crazy expensive individual cards and mostly build sets. Largest individual cards are the usual suspects - Cobb, Wagner, Anson, Matty, WaJo, Young, etc.

5. What complete sets or near complete sets (say 75% or more) do you currently own.

The main ones are below in my signature, but also larger European issues like Ogden Tabs (1,560 cards, about 85% complete), Stollwerck Albums (3,690 cards, somewhere beyond halfway), Felix Potin (1,775 cards/100% complete), and some other nonsense. Some complete baseball game sets, lots of smaller complete uncategorized sets.

Damn Anson, that's impressive. Love your site btw.

1. How long have you been collecting pre-war cards?
About 4 years now.

2. What is the approximate largest number of pre-war cards/items you've
ever owned at any one time?
Approx 250

3. Approximately how many pre-war cards/items do you currently still own?
34

4. What is/are the most significant card(s)/item(s) you currently own?
A highly curated Ty Cobb collection, my complete t200 Fatima set and my near complete 12 card Old Judge Abner Dalrymple run

5. What complete sets or near complete sets (say 75% or more) do you
currently own?
A complete T200 Fatima set that I am working to upgrade.

Nice job on all of those sets.

I am not sure I answered questions in my response from a while back.

1. 29 yrs

2. probably around 1000 in my first collection, including ancillary items

3. Including rppc's, I probably have around 600? in my current collection.

4. I have the usual names on a few significant cards....maybe the e90-1 Young, in a 7 holder, is the most notable.

5. As a type collector I don't do sets so don't think I have any right now. My 1936 Home Run Candy collection of 16 is probably the closest I have. I don't think anyone knows the count in the entire set, unless I missed it.

Well, I'm new here, but I figured I'd bring this thread back to life........

Wow, Bob, I'd like to thank you for making me feel like an amateur at this. No hard feelings though!
I first started collecting pre-war when I first discovered that they existed, which was about 1987.... well in actuality, my dad was financing the operation back then...I think he was living vicariously through me, but either way, I had a big gap from about 1991 until last year.
I have somewhere in the neighborhood of 175-200 pre-war cards.
I'm not a set collector, but the closest thing I have to a complete set is a 1938 Churchman.s boxing set (I need 6 cards).
My most significant cards are a tough call...
Although not particularly rare, the glory hounds would be:
T206 Walter Johnson Portrait... It's a freakin' T206 Big Train
!934 Goudey Lou Gehrig... Triple Crown Year
1935 Goudey Babe Ruth... Final Playing days card...as a Brave
The tougher cards would be:
T206 Cy Young (glove showing) with a factory 42 back
1933 R308 Dizzy Dean & Connie Mack
1933 George C Miller R300 Mel Ott
1938 Dixie Lids Bob Feller with a Borden's back

Bob, I saw you have a Dixie Lids set and there used to be a thread that I can't find about back scarcity, it was old, and at the time, it had a count of only one known Borden's back. I was curious if you had any more info on this.
Anyway, I've rambled on long enough, thanks for reading.

Let’s keep this thread going. Would love to see updates from those who have already responded.

1 I got my first pre war cards in the early 90s, a T206 common, 33 Goudey Frisch, 34 Goudey common, and 35 Goudey Klein/Cuyler.

2 The most I have had is around 1500 cards.

3 I currently have about that same 1500.

4 My all time favorite card is my 33 DeLong Gehrig.

5 I am primarily a set builder, a low grade collector too, and have completed the following, :
H804-1, T201, 1933 DeLong, 1933-36 Goudey, 1938 Goudey, 1934-36 Batter Up, 1934-36 Diamond Stars, 1941 Play Ball.
I am currently at 157/161 on 39 Play Ball, and on the non sport side at about 80% on the Horrors of War.
I am also doing 40 Play Ball, T205, 1941 Double Play, 1933 George C Miller, and N135.

1. How long have you been collecting pre-war cards?

4 Years

2. What is the approximate largest number of pre-war cards you've
ever owned at any one time?

90

3. Approximately how many pre-war cards do you currently still own?

80

4. What is the most significant card you own?

1933 Sport Kings Babe Ruth

5. What complete sets or near complete sets do you currently own?

1911 T205 HOF Set (100%)
1934 Goudey HOF Set (95%)
1888 N29 (66%)