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Hmmm ok Ted let me see if I have this right. Because they used a similar back design that pinpoints the date to 1910 over an original American Lithograph journal
that covers all the tobacco cards issued from 1909-1912. That makes about as much sense as when you suggested the t206 fronts were laminated
on pre printed backs.

Show-n-Tell which Tobacco cards you have are your favorites, post as many as you like

Pat

If you do NOT see the stylistic similarity of the design of these 5 backs indicating that they were printed during the Summer 1910 timeline,
then you have no appreciation for the operation at American Lithographic's art department. These designs were simultaneously printed in
the Spring/Summer of 1910. The same was true with another stylistic back design during the 350-only Series (CAROLINA BRIGHTS).

http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...uplcate75x.jpg
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...LxCOxCYx25.jpg http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...ldDRUMx25b.jpg

Furthermore,
This information is derived from an ATC journal regarding the May 1911 DIVESTURE ACT, which broke up American Tobacco Company's
monopoly.

Liggett & Myers was given about 28 per cent of the cigarette market:

Piedmont
Fatima
American Beauty
Home Run
Imperiales
COUPON
King Bee
Fatima

P. Lorillard received 15 per cent of the nation's business:

Helmar
Egyptian Deities
Turkish Trophies
Murad
Mogul
and all straight Turkish brands

American Tobacco retained 37 per cent of the market:

Pall Mall
Sweet Caporal
Hassan
Mecca

Note that the COUPON brand is assigned to L & M.....proving to us that it was in the marketplace during 1910.
Newspaper clippings (circa 1909) exist which inform us this new ATC brand was being introduced.

THAT'S ALL FOLKS, CASE IS CLOSED !

TED Z

T206 Reference
.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tedzan (Post 2105577)

How does any of this prove the t213-1's were printed in1910?

In a previous thread about them you and Jeremy both claimed the 1910 date came from a newspaper ad and that Jeremy had the ad.
After days of saying he was going to dig out the ad he admitted he had mistaken it for an Old Mill or Hindu ad.

I have two questions for you. Have you looked at the ALC journal?
If the t213-1's were printed with the t206's why aren't they in the journal?

Show-n-Tell which Tobacco cards you have are your favorites, post as many as you like

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pat R (Post 2105589)

How does any of this prove the t213-1's were printed in1910?

In a previous thread about them you and Jeremy both claimed the 1910 date came from a newspaper ad and that Jeremy had the ad.
After days of saying he was going to dig out the ad he admitted he had mistaken it for an Old Mill or Hindu ad.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pat R (Post 2105589)

I have two questions for you. Have you looked at the ALC journal ?
If the t213-1's were printed with the t206's why aren't they in the journal?

What ALC journal are you referring to ? ?

And, your 2nd ? here doesn't make any sense.

Here is my simulated 48-card sheet comprising of the Major League subjects in the 1910 COUPON set. My educated guess is: this represents a 350-only series
sheet which American Lithographic (ALC) "borrowed " to print the 1910 COUPON cards approx. in the same timeframe (Spring/Summer 1910) that ALC printed
these T206's with PIEDMONT, SWEET CAP, SOVEREIGN, etc. backs

To my Engineering thinking mind that makes logical sense to me.

1910 COUPON (T213-1) Major League 48 subjects

http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...sSheet12xx.jpg http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...Sheet12xxx.jpg
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...sSheet12xx.jpg http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...eSheet12xx.jpg

TED Z

T206 Reference
.

Here's my only T213-1 Coupon, and it qualifies as one of my favorites, even if it is obviously in rough shape. In fact I'm surprised any of these T213-1 cards survived in nicer shape than mine...they are thin! In fact, it is so thin and fragile, I decided against removing it from the sleeve when I scanned it.

Brian

Quote:

Originally Posted by tedzan (Post 2105602)

I DID NOT SAY ANYTHING ABOUT A NEWSPAPER ADV. !

I referred to Newspaper clippings (circa 1909-1910) announcing that ATC was introducing a new Tobacco brand, labelled COUPON.

It's bad enough that you constantly try to "trash" anything I present on Net54, but now you are "busting" Jeremy. I do feel sorry for you !

What ALC journal are you referring to ? ?

And, your 2nd ? here doesn't make any sense.

Here is my simulated 48-card sheet comprising of the Major League subjects in the 1910 COUPON set. My educated guess is: this represents a 350-only series
sheet which American Lithographic (ALC) "borrowed " to print the 1910 COUPON cards approx. in the same timeframe (Spring/Summer 1910) that ALC printed
these T206's with PIEDMONT, SWEET CAP, SOVEREIGN, etc. backs

To my Engineering thinking mind that makes logical sense to me.

1910 COUPON (T213-1) Major League 48 subjects

http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...sSheet12xx.jpg http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...Sheet12xxx.jpg
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...sSheet12xx.jpg http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...eSheet12xx.jpg

TED Z

T206 Reference
.

It's actually an original ATC journal with ledger pages from 1909-1912.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tedzan (Post 2105602)

I'm not "busting" on anyone I'm stating true facts from a previous thread.
At the time you and I were emailing about the ad Jeremy said he had and
you said to give him time to dig it out that he was busy.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tedzan (Post 1841319)

Pat
1st.....Here is exactly what I said in the 1st post in this thread...…..

Pat....do notice that I stated...."Such a cigarette carton"

This particular carton which Jeremy posted in his thread some years ago contained COUPON cigarettes manufactured in 1913 - 1919. And, if cards were enclosed in this type of carton,
they would have been either T213-2 or T213-3.

This we know for sure, since the LIGGETT & MYERS TOBACCO CO. logo is printed on it.

The ATC divesture (circa June 1911) resulted in the following manner…………

LIGGETT & MYERS was given about 28 per cent of the cigarette market:

Coupon
Piedmont
Fatima
American Beauty
Home Run
Imperiales
King Bee
Fatima (the only 15 Turkish blend
and the cheap straight domestic brands.

P. LORILLARD received 15 per cent of the nation's business:

Helmar
Egyptian Deities
Turkish Trophies
Murad
Mogul
and all straight Turkish brands

AMERICAN TOBACCO CO. retained 37 per cent of the market:

Sweet Caporal
Hassan
Mecca
Pall Mall, its expensive all-Turkish brand, named for a fashionable London street in the 18th century where "pall-mall" (a precursor to croquet) was played.

R. J. REYNOLDS received no cigarette line but was awarded 20 per cent of the plug trade.

2nd....." and can you answer the question of where the 1910 date for the type 1 comes from."

Approx 10 years ago, Louisiana Newspaper clippings (1909 or 1910) were posted in a Net54 thread introducing the new ATC tobacco brand, COUPON.

TED Z

T206 Reference
.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tedzan (Post 1841507)

That's the 1908 Times Picayune article which I referred to regarding the "COUPON" Cigarettes brand. I knew you would find it.

Come on Pat, this is silly...."but it doesn't say anything about baseball pictures.".

T206's were not issued until approx. a year later (circa Spring/Summer 1909).

Anyway, thanks for finding this Newspaper article.

TED Z

T206 Reference
.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pat R (Post 1841513)

That's my point Ted I asked where the 1910 dating of the T213-1's came from and
you said a newspaper clipping if that's not the case then where did that information
come from?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leon (Post 1841577)

Maybe, Like many other things, it came from conjecture not fact. When I started quoting Burdick all I got in response was some old hobbyists said "this and that." I say if we are going to have a good debate we should base it on facts not what someone might have said a long time ago.

[QUOTE=DixieBaseball;1842495]LOL... :D

The 20 Southern Leaguer's are not included in the Type 2 or Type 3 Set. That is one glaring difference in the the Type 1's vs the Type 2 & 3's. Obviously the dates are different and the 20 Type 1 Southern Leaguer's are identical to the T206 players from 1909-11, yet not included in the 1914 & 1919 Coupon sets. If you take for example the 4 SL Nashville players (Bay,Bernhard,Ellam,Perdue) from the T206 set, they match spot on to the Type 1 Coupon set, but when you get into the Type 2 1914 Coupons, Nashville players change over to Al Bridwell & Gabby Street & same for Type 3 Coupons as they feature Al & Gabby. It's like this with other players from SL teams and that makes a distinction between the 20 SL featured in Coupon that were offered in the American Litho / ATC brands later named - T206.

Also, as for the New Orleans Times Picayune, there was a series of Coupon Advertisements in the 1909-10 papers depicting different Sportsmen scenarios, like hunting, horse racing, sporting events, etc. The pack is on the advertisement with T206 style cards showing and players names. One such advertisement (that I own), depicts 3 Southern Leaguer's coming out of the top of the pack. When I have time I will have to dig up the Newspaper as I don't have it scanned and its buried in a dry dark place. The Coupon Ad's were run for a handful of months around the 1909-10 time frame.[/QUOTE]

Quote:

Originally Posted by tedzan (Post 1842522)

Tony and Jeremy

I really appreciate your posts. Both of you have amplified on a lot of factors which I have presented here in my earlier posts.

Jeremy....it would be great if you can show us your New Orleans Times Picayune papers with the Coupon Advertisements (1909-1910 )
depicting different Sportsmen scenarios.

Thanks again,

TED Z

T206 Reference
.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DixieBaseball (Post 1843368)

Hey Guys - Sorry, been away at Volleyball Tourneys the past serveral days... I still need to read and catch up on this thread, so forgive me if this has already been mentioned... The Federal Leaguers seem to be key to the time difference in the Type 1 and Type 2's, correct !? Burdick seem to get the Type 2 dating correct as that set is loaded with Federal leaguer's (Federal League 1913-15) and a perfect example is Al Bridwell 1914 Type 2 card - St. Louis Terriers Fed league team. Bridwell is also featured in the Type 2 set with a Nashville card having spent time bouncing around SL a bit. There are other examples in the Type 2 set of Minor League/Federal Leaguer's who are not featured in the Type 1 set as well. To me it seems fairly obvious the 4 Nashville players featured in ATC/American Litho 1909-11 are Bay, Bernhard, Perdue, and Ellam. Those 4 Nashville players are absent in the Type 2 and 3 sets as well as the obvious blue lettering which distinguishes the 2&3 sets from the Type 1. Two Clear examples that Type 1 were most likely not printed in and around the time of the Type 2 and 3 sets.

Pat - Thanks for all the advertisement examples of OM & Hindu... I think that may be what I have buried in my collection. I will dig it up at some point and verify... Too big to scan, and I haven't looked at it in years... Regardless of an advertisement, sure that is clear proof, but Coupon Type 1 cards are so rare, I doubt they had a Advertising campaign like the other ATC brands. While it would be nice to have a clearly dated advertisement as proof, I think its clear by the Federal league example aforementioned and the 4 Nashville players mirroring the T206 4 Nashville players that its more likely the Coupons were produced around 1909-11 than around 1913-19 like the Type 2 and 3's with blue lettering and glossy/thicker cardboard. It's only a matter of time as type 1's lean way more towards the 1910 date, than they do any other date imho.

Thanks, J

Coupons Type 1’s are rare bc of distribution pattern....

Ted - Per your comments below... I absolutely agree these cards were randomly attached to Coupon Cartons. (See my Examples below) : The Greminger has Carton layer/residue on the reverse still stuck to it and the Coupon Carton has a patchy area in upper right hand corner and is missing a thin layer of carton where something was attached to it and was removed. Plenty of Type 1 Coupon examples with the missing paper in the same spot on the upper middle back. Now look at the carton below... Unfortunately, I have only seen 2 Cartons in my life as they are fragile and have not survived and I own one. I wish I could find the other one to review for paper loss to the carton and see if it is in the same spot. Doesn't have to be as you could attach the card anywhere I suppose, but it makes sense that the upper right of the carton would have the card attached and consistent with pattern of the paper loss on card and carton.

The ones who disagree with us are unaware that these cards were NOT meant to be "stiffiners" in cigarette packs. The initial offering of the COUPON
cigarettes was in rectangular cartons containing 200 (or more) loose cigarettes.....circa 1909 - 1910).
Many of the cards were inserted in these cartons, while others were pasted on the outside of the carton. Hence, the paper loss on the backs of some
of these cards (e.g. my Cobb).

Quote:

Originally Posted by DixieBaseball (Post 2105786)

If the paper loss on your carton is from having a type 1 glued to it that
would mean they were printed after the t206's according to Ted. He said
your carton is 1913 or later because it has Liggett & Myers on it.

Show-n-Tell which Tobacco cards you have are your favorites, post as many as you like

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pat R (Post 2105890)

The L & M label on these cartons proves nothing in determining when the 1910 COUPON cards were printed. All this indicates is that some 1910 COUPON cards were affixed
to these cartons post ATC Divesture.
The most significant key to determining when the 1910 cards were printed (besides the 48 subjects from the 350-only Series) is in the labelling on the backs of these cards,
namely "COUPON"

The QUOTES surrounding the Brand name signify that ATC has not yet received the Registered TRADEMARK of this new brand (circa 1909/1910) at time of their printing.

Other such examples of QUOTED new Brands are these...........

http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...cobbtycobb.jpg http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...cobbtycobb.jpg

http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...atecigpack.jpg . http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...atecigpack.jpg . https://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan...t215pirate.jpg

TED Z

T206 Reference
.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tedzan (Post 2105923)

As you like to say we have discussed this already Ted.

First of we know the Coupon Cigarettes existed as early as 1908

Quote:

Originally Posted by tedzan (Post 1841507)

and the quotes seemed to be used on tobacco products frequently back then

Here's a Carolina Brights coupon I have that they used the quotes on

Attachment 459661

so your case closed evidence that they were printed in 1910 is

A similar back design
48 subjects from the 350 only series
Coupon in quotes
Paper missing on some backs where they were glued to cartons

These things according to you are case closed evidence they were printed in 1910

but the these facts

they're printed on a different stock
the t213 type 1 subjects don't match up with any other t206 back (except Piedmont)
the ledger pages from an atc journal covering 35 tobacco brands from 1909-1912 doesn't have Coupon cigarettes in it.
you claim that they were glued to cartons and that's what the paper loss on on the back of some of them is from but the carton with paper loss on it that Jeremy has you yourself said is no earlier than 1913.

so all of these facts are just meh... a coincidence?

it really seems to me that you're grasping at straws to prove they were printed in 1910.

Coupon Carton....

The carton I showed is 1 of 2 examples I have ever seen. We don't know what the cartons looked like from 1909-12. Perhaps they were different. I showed the carton to merely indicate that it has paper loss in upper right and the size of the paper loss is the same as the typical size of the paper loss on a Type 1 Coupon. Many Type 1 Coupons have this same paper loss. There is no doubt the Coupons were affixed to something. Too many examples to be a coincidence. Also, keep in mind Coupon changed their coloring, style on packs multiple times. (I have 3 different colors/styles from 3 different decades in my collection) So it's not out of the question, to see a variance of carton or pack. There may be different examples of cartons that didn't survive that look different from 1909-12. We know the packs look different from 1910 era to 1919-20 to 1930's...

Coupon Cartons/Boxes

New Orleans Retailer with rare image of Coupon Boxes / Cartons in the background for sale behind their Window shelves. I wonder how many Coupon Cartons came to a Coupon Box? 4,5,8, or 10 perhaps... Love the mystery behind this super rare tobacco brand. ;)

Jeremy, It doesn't matter to me if people want to group them with t206's
or if they were attached to the outside of cartons what I am interested in
is the date they were printed.

Have you or Ted looked at the ATC journal?

It covers all the cigarette brand in the t206 set and a total of 35 different brands.

Here are some of the t206 pages from that journal

Attachment 459686

Attachment 459687

The narrower American Beauty's you brought up were in it

Attachment 459688

But the Coupon Cigarettes weren't.

Neat stuff Jerome, thanks for posting.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pat R (Post 2105989)

Hey Pat - at some point in near future, I will certainly be looking into your ATC Journal info (thank you for providing-looks interesting), and this thread to review all the comments. Plausible either way I suppose, but certainly will check it out. I am to busy playing offense at the moment, to play defense :p --- Seriously though, I look forward to reviewing, discussing w/ you and Ted in near future. Just so frikkin busy, and I better get back to pressure washing the back deck as that is what I was suppose to be doing this morning... ;) Meanwhile... let us be Free from Adulteration!

Show-n-Tell which Tobacco cards you have are your favorites, post as many as you like

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pat R (Post 2105955)

As you like to say we have discussed this already Ted.

First of we know the Coupon Cigarettes existed as early as 1908

and the quotes seemed to be used on tobacco products frequently back then

Here's a Carolina Brights coupon I have that they used the quotes on

Attachment 459661 Yes, because in 1908 CAROLINA BRIGHTS was a new ATC brand whose TRADEMARK had NOT yet been Registered !

so your case closed evidence that they were printed in 1910 is

A similar back design
48 subjects from the 350 only series
Coupon in quotes
Paper missing on some backs where they were glued to cartons

These things according to you are case closed evidence they were printed in 1910

but the these facts

they're printed on a different stock
Because these cards were not intended to be inserted in Packs as "stiffiners". There are NO packs labelled "COUPON" cigarettes.

the t213 type 1 subjects don't match up with any other t206 back (except Piedmont) I do not understand what you are stating here, this does NOT make any sense !

the ledger pages from an atc journal covering 35 tobacco brands from 1909-1912 doesn't have Coupon cigarettes in it.
Keep researching, you'll find one that does include the COUPON brand !

you claim that they were glued to cartons and that's what the paper loss on on the back of some of them is from but the carton with paper loss on it that Jeremy has you yourself said is no earlier than 1913. Totally irrelevant in determining printing date !

so all of these facts are just meh... a coincidence?

it really seems to me that you're grasping at straws to prove they were printed in 1910.

I'm not grasping at any straws.

You are so OBSESSED with proving me wrong regarding the 1910 date.....that you are continually making a "fool" of your self.

Perhaps Mark Twain said it best.... "Do not argue with a fool, onlookers may not be able to tell the difference."

This discussion is ENDED ! ! (as far as I'm concerned).

Thanks for "hi-jacking" what started out as an interesting thread.

Hey folks, let's continue posting and talking about our favorite Tobacco cards.

TED Z
.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tedzan (Post 2106007)

Well Ted if posting facts is "making a fool of myself" so be it at least I can say I never faked a scan to prove myself right.

https://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=136566

Show-n-Tell which Tobacco cards you have are your favorites, post as many as you like

Quote:

Originally Posted by atx840 (Post 2106022)

Some of my favorites.

https://live.staticflickr.com/3777/1...da2f9c46_b.jpg

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/...b8bcdf3b_z.jpg https://live.staticflickr.com/3668/8...4a2ba3b6_z.jpg https://live.staticflickr.com/8414/8...24de6a96_z.jpg

Hey Chris.....ole buddy.....did you have any luck getting the BROAD LEAF ?

http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...uplcate75x.jpg
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...LxCOxCYx25.jpg http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...6DRUMx50bx.jpg

I still need his CAROLINA BRIGHTS, CYCLE 46, and T213-3 (overprint) cards to complete my blue Chase run. And, if a DRUM card
of this Chase should ever surface, just imagine what the $$$$$ will be for it ?

Also, I need his T214 (VICTORY) card. In the meantime, this VICTORY reprint will fill this vacancy :)

http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...ctorychase.jpg http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...ctorychase.jpg

TED Z

T206 Reference
.

Show-n-Tell which Tobacco cards you have are your favorites, post as many as you like

Full pack of 10. Any one here interested in smoking a 110 year
old American Beauty cigarette................... :)

http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...igpackt206.jpg https://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan...chWheat50x.jpg https://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan...hWheat50xb.jpg

The AMERICAN BEAUTY 460 is my favorite T206 back.

This Zach Wheat card was my first AMERICAN BEAUTY 460. It motivated me to start the AB 460 run. American Lithographic printed 74 subjects with the AB 460 back.

After many years, I now have 73 cards.... I still need Camnitz (hands above head) to complete this run. I will generously reward you, if you can help me find Camnitz.

And, this beauty is my favorite AB 460 card.

https://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan...ffAB460x50.jpg . https://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan...obbbat25xb.jpg

TED Z

T206 Reference
.