I know the seller of the 4 and the 5 was Heritage. I agree not all reported sales are real. I am sure these two are real

PSA reimbursement question
 

If PSA reimburses do they reimburse based off of a calculated current value or do they attempt to configure a value of the card at the time it was originally graded?

Scroll up and read Post 72.

Wont value be based on SMR, lol?

Best of luck!

The fraud takes the fun out of the hobby. Nice to hear these are legit.

If AJ was made aware in Aug 2020 that the card he bought in July 2020 was altered why did he happen to wait until now to explore a buy back from PSA?

AJ had recourse with the eBay seller to return the card but he clearly opted not to. The card was good enough for him then when it was worth 17500 but not now when it is worth 45K? Am I missing something?

I would sit on it forever as opposed to just a week. Come on man!!

Yes after I was alerted in 2020 I notified PSA and got no response. It was also well past the return date. Besides why would I return it, so the seller could resale to some other unsuspecting collector? Once prices started accelerating over the last 60 days, I decided to find out what the market would bring so I could revisit with PSA. Now that I know it's worth approx $45k in this market, I can hopefully force PSA to deal with this (it's in their best interest to do so now before it appreciates further).

So if I would've said "ok deal, 55k to you" you would've said no sale, j/k, this is not really for sale?

Sent from my SM-G981U using Tapatalk

If you were curious about a current market value, why not just ask instead of listing it to look like a legitimate sale in BST? Judging by your asking price, it looks like you had some idea of value.

The Plot Thickens.......

I don't think there's a major problem asking for offers to determine value of the Jackie.
There's a huuuuge difference between what people 'think' is it's value, based on things as varied as what THEY would feel comfortable paying theoretically if they had the money, to what they last saw one sell at (could be 6 months previous), to even personal discrimination based on the issue itself or it's aesthetics.

Getting hard offers from buyers willing to commit their funds to a real purchase is a series of true numbers you can work from realistically and refer to.

Of course, with every offer the OP should have been contacting the interested party to let them know why he had created the BST thread, to thank them for their interest and to ask if they would not bomb the exercise for a pre-determined time so he could gather enough evidence.
No idea if the OP did this though.

He should have then started a fresh thread to discuss why he made the Sale thread and to encourage discussion of his situation.
Being called to do so by others sure makes him seem less hobby pure and creates the idea he might have actually been willing to let go of his problem to someone else for the right number.

His original listing says $55,000. It doesn't say "or BO", nowhere does it even mention offers.

My two cents - first off it's sad that the hobby needs to deal with this situation and will have to continue to do so thanks to those who are willing (and greedy enough) to alter cards for profit.
Second, when it comes to this board, I would have reached out to Leon to clear this experiment by him before posting. It's his board, he's done an excellent job of running it and he deserves the respect of a heads-up on something like this.

Haha--oh this is good stuff

Didn't get any offers from the BST here, but got a ton from ebay and two from private parties. Could have easily sold it many times.

Far too invested in the hobby to burn someone else with a possibly trimmed card. I also don't blame the guy who sold it to me on ebay. I'm sure he had no idea.

The pricing was strategic (including no obo in listing). Too low and I'd get too many inquires and have to give lots of explanations after. Just high enough to get a serious market offer.

Agree with this. Hindsight should have told Leon beforehand.

End of the day, the plan worked. I was able to get real market rate offers having placed card on multiple platforms in order to show PSA. And as a bonus generated some talk about this situation so I can leverage with PSA.

oops forgot to respond to this one.

Yes I had to tell both private parties (one at $40k and the other at $45k) the situation. Both people had no idea net54 exists nor blowout. I gave them both links to the blowout thread showing the evidence.

So if someone on Net54 had replied "I'll take it at 55k" - what would you have done?

I think I've already explained. Read thread from beginning (or just post #98)

Neither explains a "I'll take it at 55k on Net54" offer.

So if someone on Net54 had replied and agreed to the 55k offer - what would have happened....?

Hey Hey quick update! Just came in from Steve Sloan. Will update the thread with progress

No dog in the fight, but as he already turned down offers of 40K and 45K, I'm feeling comfortable saying he'd turn down 55K. Just my opinion.

Things moving now. Just got off phone with Jackie Curiel at PSA after getting an email from her. She has issued a pre-paid Fedex label to send the card in for a management review.

We talked about the process and what happens if they deem the card altered and my options after. She said they would figure out a fair market price based on the data tool on the PSA website.

I asked for management to come up with a market price in writing so we're on the same page before I send in the card. This is where my ebay offers and third party offers come into play. She's going to get that figure and circle back with me on Monday. No way I'm sending this card in before fair value is established. stay tuned...

edited to add: Has anyone gone through this process? What should I be thinking about?

No dog in the fight, but whenever I see language like this in a guarantee I think you are 100% correct to get the amount in writing ahead of time. "The current market value is determined by PSA, based in part on Sports Market Report and SMR Online values and/or recent prices realized from the marketplace. PSA will be the sole determiner of the current market value." [emphasis added https://www.psacard.com/about/financialguarantee] If you don't agree with their determination of value, not sure what your options would be though.

I think getting a number in writing before shipping it off makes sense. As we saw in the reprint CJ in a PSA slab earlier this year, once you ship it off you no longer have much or any control of the situation and it's best to do the negotiations beforehand (and in writing).
And not that this would necessarily impact your decision process, but I do wonder what they would do with the card if returned to them and a refund is issued...

Side Note is there paper lose on top left of his hat?? Yellow Chunk?

That bugs the crap out of me, aside from being trimmed what is that? Curious what that is?

back and forth with Jackie at PSA over email. They are refusing to negotiate a market price before I send in the card. Reached out again directly to Steve to see if I can resolve. more to come...

Why do I get the feeling this isn't going to go smoothly?:eek:

Sounds like they are wanting to pay market price from last summer.

Why not just drop it off, it's 45 minutes away.

right!

If they'd let me do that, I would be all for it. I'd still want to know what value they'd be placing on the card before they evaluate it. Once it's in their hands, I've lost all negotiating power.

Psa
 

Wouldn’t you be happy be getting back what you paid or slightly more than you paid for the card originally to end all this drama?

Also, Jackie at Psa is fantastic.

You would be happy with that outcome? I know I wouldn't. He would never be able to replace that card in that grade in today's market with what he paid for it in July. I doubt he would even be able to get a PSA 3 for what he paid in July.

Very true, and because of that, I don't blame you one bit for not wanting to do it.

The difference is that by offering the card at $55K, he's created a legally binding offer which, if accepted, would create a legally binding contract. It would have been a better look to just post it asking for offers in this case, IMHO.

But if he is transparent about it then no one is going to pay 4.5 market for a trimmed card. And if he isn't then that isn't a good look either. (as we have seen). I would never give any TPG the card without a negotiated price up front. Once they have it, as stated, there is no control. Hold your hand tightly imo....

.

Rhetorical question I assume, obviously AJ would not be happy with that at all.

Let’s face it guys would he have bought this card if it wasn’t in a PSA holder? I would guess no he bought it because it was in a PSA holder we all know the market resale value of a PSA holder slabbed card. To me PSA hast to back this up and pay you a fair market value, I believe they will. Keep the faith and let’s see if PSA makes this right I think that they will.


One thing is troubling...If this card was trying to be sold and the seller knew that it had issues I don’t really care for that again though I have no idea what anyone knew what anyone didn’t know but if the card is deemed altered PSA has to make you right.

The argument I would pound home If you have to battle this out would be I bought the card because it was in a PSA holder the market knows it’s strong resale value growth and appreciation when you buy a card graded in there slab you buy it with that assurance that the card is authentic unaltered and proper.

I believe the real battle is going to be what is a fair market value for this card? May go to an arbiter I don’t know ��*♂️

It always comes down to the money, on both ends is the juice worth the squeeze ?

If the card could have been returned last summer, maybe that has some logic to it? Or can you just sit on an altered card, hope it goes up, then expect PSA to pay for the appreciation?

Had the card gone down in value it would've been to the advantage of PSA.

If he'd been compensated last summer he could've then gotten an unaltered Jackie and realized the same profit.

But PSA wouldn't have funded it. A buyer would have.

Reading this thread just makes me feel so happy that I picked up my PSA 4 Leaf Jackie RIGHT BEFORE the pandemic. I remember the seller wanted like five to a thousand dollars more, and instead of arguing with him, I just gave him the money. I remember him telling me "listen, this card is going to be worth ten grand one day - you hear me?" I thought to myself "yeah ... and that will probably be in ten years!" Instead, it happened in like ten weeks! LOL!

Anyhow, anyone who chops up a Leaf Jackie should have his d*ck chopped off instead!

With all the money they have made they could buy a gold one to replace it.

lmao!!!!!!!!!!!

I know everyone always assumes that the chop happens for the purpose of deceiving a grader and getting a higher number flip, but that's NOT always the case. In fact, I think it's why some of the trimmed cards make it into a holder.
They juuuust make it inside size tolerances and the edges aren't 'fresh'.
Someone long ago, a kid, a collector looking for it to fit inside a display, made a decision to slice and dice but age has since hidden some of that obvious alteration.

It's kind of like the new video replay rules we see in sports.
If you can't be sure it's been trimmed, then it's unfair to guess that it was in all likelihood but not without doubt.

Of course this doesn't apply necessarily to the Jackie or some other obvious trimmed cards like below, but sometimes what's posted and postulated to be trimmed may pass the standard inspections TPG's use to make their call.

https://hosting.photobucket.com/imag...gefront(1).JPG

Hawk,

I think that ninety-nine percent of trimmed cards were done for the purpose of deceiving a grader and to get a higher grade. I also think that majority of these Leafs were chopped up by the same person. He also chopped up majority of the 51' and 53' Parkhurst hockey cards as well. He has been doing this for a long time.

Nice Satch.

Don't forget 55 Bowman, 39 Play Ball, and 52 Bowman and Look N See.

That's super sad to hear re consistent fraudster choppers.
Ok, I'll get back on the pecker re-sizing bandwagon.:mad:

Don't forget T206. Every time I see a skinny sharp cornered T206 I wonder. All in how many altered cards in holders? Tens of thousands? Hundreds of Thousands?

And this guy is still sitting at home chilling, eh?

He has made millions in this hobby. I am sure he is chilling just fine.

Not a specialty of the clinician under discussion, to my knowledge. But he has many colleagues. You've even heard of some of them.

Thank god some un-altered exist....
 

Except for tape! lol

Yes Virginia, there is a non trimming Santa Clause out there! Especially like how the tape bleeds into and right up to the right edge.

Peace, Mike :cool:

Attachment 444663

PS If this was missing the tape, I could retire.......but I kinda like it! :)

Mine doesn't have the tape, wanna swap?:D
Seriously, that is one buldgingly full bordered Leaf card!!!:eek:
Colors are also super nice and such good registration.
I can't see ever wanting to let it go either.

well I hope this works out, but I think there is zero chance of payout on this card.

management review is going to conclude the grade is accurate with no alteration, and that will close the book on it.

if they pay out on this one, they are opening the door to every single other card the BO team has discovered, which would bankrupt the company.

Nat and the investment team aren't stupid, they knew this liability was out there and I'm sure there were dozens of lawyers that convinced everyone there was plenty of leeway to never pay on the promise.

I really do hope I'm wrong, because AJ has some great cards and has always been a good guy in dealing with me. but alas, this "guarantee" has proven to not be worth much historically.

don't get cheated...

Thanks Dan!
 

I'll sleep on the offer! lol

Your is super cool too! Not many of this card even exist.

I do love the centering, registration, borders, colors, rarity, and yes, I do love that tape! I feel strongly that if this card was not originally taped to something that the conditon would be far from what it is now! Thanks! Mike

Discipline
 

Like Warren Buffett

I just want to echo Leon's sentiment. If PSA has the card with no deal in place, you'll very likely not be happy with the results. If it was me, even if a price was agreed upon, I would insist upon a legally binding contract to ensure that the terms of the deal were met by all parties.

Cutting you a check plus returning the card to you in an Authentic Altered Slab seems like the easy thing to do.

I think they will.

Are you ready to battle it out with attorney ? Or just Take what they offer you?

California Business & Professions Code section 17500: "It is unlawful for any person, firm, corporation or association, or any employee thereof with intent directly or indirectly to ... perform services ... or to induce the public to enter into any obligation relating thereto, to make or disseminate ...over the Internet, any statement, ... those services ... which is untrue or misleading, and which is known, or which by the exercise of reasonable care should be known, to be untrue or misleading... Any violation of the provisions of this section is a misdemeanor punishable by imprisonment in the county jail not exceeding six months, or by a fine not exceeding two thousand five hundred dollars ($2,500), or by both that imprisonment and fine."

Seems to me that a guarantee that the company never fulfills because it says "nu-uh" to every request to fulfill it is ripe for legal action.

They do fulfill it sometimes though, and didn't their financials when they were public show how much they paid out each year, or did it just show the reserve?

Sad as it is, PSA is completely in the driver's seat here. We all seem to have to play by their rules. Maintaining possession of the card only puts you in possession of the card but not control of the disposition.

PSA could determine without having the card that it might be altered and if AJ refuses to send it in because he cannot get them to commit to it being trimmed or a buy back price, PSA will deactivate the cert pending a review of the card.

AJ has already said he would not sell the card to anyone given the card's history but having a card with a deactivated cert would certainly add another layer of complexity to the situation.

It's not objectively unreasonable for PSA to want the card back in its possession before making a determination. You're going to lose that one. IMO you're already in not so great a position on account of waiting months after the card was outed and you knew it before taking action. What leverage do you think holding onto the card gives you anyhow if you aren't going to sell it under any circumstances because it's hacked, I am not seeing it.

I could be wrong, but I don't thing PSA will deactivate the cert without first reviewing the card in hand. I've emailed them all the info from the blowout thread including the pics and evidence and they've said they need the card in hand to do a review and that pics and scans aren't enough proof.

I'm holding out hope that my email to Steve will allow us a dialogue to put a fair market price on the card that gives me confidence to send it in. I really don't want to get lawyers involved at this point and think we can work it out before it gets to that point.

If I don't hear from Steve, I'll reach out to Nat and see if that gets me further. I'm assuming Nat (and Steve for that matter) will want to resolve fairly and amicably. All I know is the longer they wait, the potentially more expensive it gets. A PSA 7 just sold last night for $400,000+

A psa 7 With paper loss right? So scans and pics aren’t evidence?

PSA has and will deactivate cert numbers for cards they don't have in hand. They will modify set info on cards they've logged incorrectly in their database without the card in hand (the flip stays wrong in those instances until an owner sends it in). PSA is also quick on the trigger to ban people who make demands of them, so if you're a submitter or have an account to track your collection, don't be surprised if either get deleted once this one is "cleared."

The fact that you're making your case in the open makes it very likely they eliminate you from their customer pool, IMO.

Have you been following along all these three years? They and BGS have stood behind numerous cards outed for trimming. BGS doesn't even have a monetary liability/guarantee, just don't want to get egg on their face publicized for agreeing their graded cards are trimmed. Read more threads, especially on Blowout.

I have followed some of this. If PSA can't see paper loss, and don't recognize scans and pictures, why are they even bothering to acknowledge that anything has been altered? The might as well just be like BGS and just ignore it. Just like they all did for the signed Tobacco card forgeries (when is the last time anything was provided on that).

IMO...anything that PSA has done in the past should be thrown out the window.

They're under new ownership...who seem to have aspirations of blowing up the hobby like never seen before.

They need to make this...and other obvious errors right...and move on.

IMO...this is what will happen.

There are countless altered cards in slabs. People have been doctoring cards and getting them into holders for close to 30 years. Many of the doctors are prolific in terms of the quantities they churn out, and in modern it's absolutely rampant. How the hell is new ownership ever going to fix that?

One card at a time. In an open and honest way.

Crossing fingers

What happens with your one Jackie card really has not much to do with the unbelievable scope of an unfixable problem.

Ya mean you do not want to share in his excitement over his trying to hit the Leaf Lottery? Just look how excited the man is.

If he hits it, and I have my doubts, good for him I guess, but let's not pretend this is somehow some turning point for the hobby if he does.

True that... They would need to re-review tens of thousands of other cards (now socked away in countless collections), confiscate them all, re-slab them as "A", and monetarily compensate the thousands of other owners (beyond this Jackie abomination)... just to start making a dent.

SO not happening.

Yes Jackie Leaf has surged since I bought the card last summer, but so have lots of other cards. I've got to potentially get this re-holdered in an A holder and fight over not getting screwed on the fair market price.

The leaf lottery? No thanks, don't want that "good luck".