Originally Posted by clydepepper (Post 2060775)

I'll repeat my plea for the three Cubans to join Tony Perez.

Minoso, Tiant and Oliva.

.

Originally Posted by perezfan (Post 2060870)

While I agree with nobody being voted into the Hall this year (by the writers), I do think those three fellows are "Hall Worthy" via the Veterans Committee. Especially Minoso.

Of all the names being thrown around in this thread, I most root for Hodges and Minoso to get in some day. Buck O'Neil is another (who's not yet been mentioned here, unless I missed it). I like to look at the Players' entire body of work, instead of just stats. Statistics do not tell the whole story.

Originally Posted by Seven (Post 2060888)

I'd agree with that as well. Would love for Dick Allen to get some consideration, and Gil Hodges as well. I think Hodges can get in through the Golden Era Committee

Originally Posted by insidethewrapper (Post 2060741)

I never understood why some drugs are OK and others are not OK to enhance performance. More than 10% of the players use medication for Attention Deficit Disorder, this greatly helps their attention and concentration at the plate. How about eye surgury etc. which has increased better vision to 20/10 etc. These are Ok because they are legal. Tommy John surgery is becoming routine to increase speed etc. It's all a bunch of crap. Put the best players in the Hall ( Rose, Bonds, Clemens, Arod ). I have no problems with these 4 guys. Tons of players took steroids but they were not as good as these guys.

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards (Post 2060740)

Looking at his health and numbers I speculate that Clemens started juicing on his arrival in Toronto. I don't feel he was a HOF'er based on just his numbers in Boston. I realize that it's conjecture, but it's my fake vote.

Originally Posted by Mike D. (Post 2060980)

Are there “confirmed” PED users in the hall, or “presumed”? I don’t recall Rodriquez failing a test. Unless we’re taking anything Jose Canseco said as “proof”.

I hate that the HOF discussion has come down to discussions of "back ache" and assumptions of guilt or innocence.

Can steroid use cause back-ache? Sure...but you know what else can? Squatting in the summer hear for the better part of 3 hours on a dusty field while wearing polyester. :)

Originally Posted by Seven (Post 2061003)

Rodriguez is "presumed" Frank Thomas made some comments about him a while back, but as for confirmed players that have taken PED's that are in the Hall:

Babe Ruth had Goat Testosterone Injected
Mantle, Aaron and Schmidt: All used Amphetamines at least once.
Koufax abused Pain Pills to pitch
Goose Gossage used Amphetamines as well.

Doesn't matter how little or how often they did it, they used at least once.

Originally Posted by Mike D. (Post 2061006)

Those are all a bit different than taking steroids/HGH after it's been explicitly banned and is being tested for...both from a legal and "baseball rules" standpoint (written and/or enforced).

But on the other hand...there ya go. Instruct the voters to no longer consider PED use when filling out their ballots, and we're back to the normal arguments!

Also...goat testosterone?! Dear God...that stuff is problematic enough in GOATS, never mind baseball players! :eek:

Originally Posted by tedzan (Post 2061008)

Gil Hodges and Allie Reynolds deserve to be in the HOF. I don't understand why Hodges isn't. He was a great team player (defensively and at bat). Other than Lou Gehrig....name
a (PED-free) BB player who had 7 consecutive 100+ RBI seasons (1949 - 1955) like Gil Hodges ?

Regarding Curt Schilling.....he has said some "politically incorrect" comments....SO WHAT ! His performance on the BB field, and his positive deeds (ALS charity work, etc.) off the
BB field are what really matter.

But, who am I to judge. I will leave you with a quote to consider from a man with a lot of wisdom.....

" Once a government is committed to the principle of silencing the voice of opposition, it has only one way to go,
and that is down the path of increasingly repressive measures until it becomes a source of terror to all its citizens
and creates a country where everyone lives in fear. " - - - - President Harry S. Truman


TED Z
.

Originally Posted by Seven (Post 2061026)

Concerning your first point I suppose your right, Iw as speaking more towards the "which players took substances" group when they played. That's just the tip of the iceberg when it came to Amphetamine abuse in baseball, people have speculated roughly half the league was on them at one point. Bowls of them were found in the Clubhouse, the notion that players, taking substances/drugs, is a recent problem is flawed.

Pud Galvin was taking Monkey Testosterone way back. Mantle was receiving injections with a concoction of "amphetamines laced with vitamins, human placenta, and eel cells" in 1961. Mantle actually ended up missing time because of it, the injection went bad and caused an abscess.

Originally Posted by Ricky (Post 2061053)

Are we really comparing amphetamines to steroids/HGH?

As far as Schilling, he has the right to say whatever he wants, like advocating the killing of journalists... and journalists, likewise, have the right to not vote for him.

Originally Posted by Wimberleycardcollector (Post 2060699)

Is anyone surprised by any of this? This day and age where people are completely cancelling out founders, leaders and people who accomplished great things for our country and people? People who by any standards were flawed and not perfect? People who lived during a time when social culture was different. The game is no different. People and players aren’t less perfect and never will be. The lines will just be drawn differently to allow some other imperfect people to reach their goals. This country used to be about equal opportunity based on your efforts. It’s becoming more about equal outcomes with less effort and a whole bunch of asterisks added at the end. In other words if you have it I should have it. If I can’t have it then either should you no matter how hard you worked for it at your job or on the field. I’m referring more to schilling here. All around not a perfect person but either we’re a lot of greats. His efforts on the field deserve recognition though.

Originally Posted by tedzan (Post 2061008)

" Once a government is committed to the principle of silencing the voice of opposition, it has only one way to go,
and that is down the path of increasingly repressive measures until it becomes a source of terror to all its citizens
and creates a country where everyone lives in fear. " - - - - President Harry S. Truman


TED Z
.

Originally Posted by clydepepper (Post 2061106)

Excuse me if I didn't read all the previous posts to see if anyone already said this (I'm old and it's late here) ...

I think almost all of us believe the current system is bad.

______________________________________________

Why not split the vote between all former players and the baseball writers?

?????????????????????????????????????????????????? ????????????????

Or...even...split three ways and include the fans.

?????????????????????????????????????????????????? ???????????????

Of course, the candidates would still have to qualify as they do now...10 years of service and a post-career wait time...so that their last years don't weigh too much on everyone's mind (which, I believe, is why the wait period is there now.)

I realize this is kind of revolutionary, but it's time for a change.



.

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards (Post 2060475)

Never understood the pass Ortiz gets. I guess being lovable forgives a lot of sins.

Originally Posted by byrone (Post 2061172)

I haven't followed Curt Schilling's post-career issues

What specifically is it that would change a voter's mind from "Yes he's a HOF'er" to "No"?

Without venturing too far into political talk.

Although if it's for things he said or wrote, is the First Amendment considered 'political'?

Originally Posted by jayshum (Post 2061187)

there have been quite a few things he has said or posted that have not been well received. I think the one that started to really impact his vote total was a few years ago when he either posted or retweeted something about lynching reporters.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...-much-awesome/

as others have said, he is free to say or post what he wants, but there can always be consequences to doing that. The first amendment allows him to say what he wants, but it doesn't force reporters to vote for him for the hall of fame if they don't want to.

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth (Post 2060685)

For sure, but I think at least in theory there is room for an argument that a guy who clearly had a HOF career pre stuff is deserving.

Originally Posted by Bigdaddy (Post 2061278)

So if Pete Rose didn't bet on games until he passed Ty Cobb, is he deserving?

Personally, I don't buy that argument. But I also can't exclude anyone from the HOF who is on the ballot. That's telling me that MLB and the HOF both believe that they are eligible. As opposed to Pete or Shoeless Joe, who are not on the eligible list. If MLB or the HOF don't want them in the HOF, then suspend them from baseball and take them off the ballot. Stand up and make a decision MLB and HOF. It's the same no-show of leadership that Selig practiced his entire tenure as Commish.

Originally Posted by Ricky (Post 2061393)

MLB and the HOF aren’t keeping Schilling out. Writers aren’t voting for him. Which is their right. Nobody has “cancelled” Schilling. He very possibly will get in through one of theVeterans Committees.

And no, doesn’t matter when Rose bet on baseball. Stupid on his part.

Originally Posted by perezfan (Post 2061452)

Writers are part of the media, and yes it is the media that is canceling and censoring voices that don't match their agenda. Any way you slice it, Schilling is a borderline candidate that could go either way. His clashes with the media were probably just enough to tip the scales against him.

I personally don't care whether he gets in, but do wish it was based solely on his performance as a player.

Originally Posted by rats60 (Post 2061150)

No, the only system that is bad is the Veterans Commitees. The BBWAA has done a pretty good job in electing worthy players. It is the Veterans Committees with players voting that has elected guys like Harold Baines, Bud Selig, Rube Marquard, Tommy McCarthy, Rick Ferrell, George Kelly, etc. Why would they want to give them more voting power?

Originally Posted by perezfan (Post 2061452)

Writers are part of the media, and yes it is the media that is canceling and censoring voices that don't match their agenda. Any way you slice it, Schilling is a borderline candidate that could go either way. His clashes with the media were probably just enough to tip the scales against him.

I personally don't care whether he gets in, but do wish it was based solely on his performance as a player.

Originally Posted by Ricky (Post 2061487)

How are they cancelling him? He got 70+% of the vote from them. He just didn’t get 75%.

Originally Posted by perezfan (Post 2061452)

Writers are part of the media, and yes it is the media that is canceling and censoring voices that don't match their agenda. Any way you slice it, Schilling is a borderline candidate that could go either way. His clashes with the media were probably just enough to tip the scales against him.

I personally don't care whether he gets in, but do wish it was based solely on his performance as a player.

Originally Posted by Ricky (Post 2061487)

How are they cancelling him? He got 70+% of the vote from them. He just didn’t get 75%.

Originally Posted by rats60 (Post 2061408)

The writers can exclude anyone they want for any reason.

Originally Posted by BCauley (Post 2061741)

Schilling was on the ballot eight other times previously and didn't get in. The first time he was on the ballot he was at 38% or something like that. Why is it suddenly now that people upset about him not getting in the eight other times he was on the ballot?

2013: 38.8%
2014: 29.2%
2015: 39.2%
2016: 52.3%
2017: 45%
2018: 51.2%
2019: 60.9%
2020: 70%
2021: 70%

Originally Posted by Bigdaddy (Post 2061730)

And that is why there is a Veteran's Committee, to offset the 'any reason' part of the vote and have folks who played the game weigh in.

Originally Posted by rats60 (Post 2061931)

There have not been many misses by the writers. Eddie Plank, Arky Vaughan and Johnny Mize come to mind. The vast majority of their picks have been borderline candidates and players who don't belong.

Originally Posted by tedzan (Post 2062059)

One of the most egregious omissions by the "writers" was not inducting Johnny Mize into the HOF in the late 1950's (or early 1960's).
Johnny waited 23 years to finally be inducted into the HOF by the Veterans Committee in 1981.


https://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan...bphotomize.jpg


I first met Johnny at the Meadowlands, NJ BB card Show in the Fall of 1981. I was set-up at this Show. Johnny was the guest signer.
His table was adjacent to mine. For 2 hours (in between "Big John" autographing), we had some really nice conversations Talkin' BB.
Before he left, he invited me to visit him in Demorest, Georgia, whenever I should be traveling down South.

On our way to Florida in 1987, I side-tracked into Georgia and visited with Johnny at his home. We reminisced for an hour (or more)
about the "good ole days". I recall asking him why he was traded by the Cardinals (1941), and then the Giants (1949) when he was
playing some really great BB. Johnny replied......
" I asked Billy Southworth (Mgr. St. Lo) for a pay increase. Southworth said no. Johnny told him....Pay me, or trade me ! "
This scenario was repeated with Durocher (Giants Mgr). The genius of Casey Stengel acquiring Johnny in 1949 benefited the Yankees
during their 1949 - 1953 "dynasty" years.

OK, having said all that, it is contemptible that the writer did not vote Curt Schilling into the HOF this year. He had 70% of their vote
last year. This year it was 71%. Shows you that a good number of these writers are just a bunch of "political hacks".

How does any one involved in Sports deny a Pitcher who achieved a Post-Season 11 - 2 Won - Lost record from being in the HOF ! ?
Show me another Pitcher in ML BB who comes close to that record.

Furthermore, Schilling has devoted a lot of his time, energy, and $$$$ for the ALS Foundation, and other Charities.


ENOUGH SAID !


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

Originally Posted by tedzan (Post 2062059)

One of the most egregious omissions by the "writers" was not inducting Johnny Mize into the HOF in the late 1950's (or early 1960's).
Johnny waited 23 years to finally be inducted into the HOF by the Veterans Committee in 1981.


https://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan...bphotomize.jpg


I first met Johnny at the Meadowlands, NJ BB card Show in the Fall of 1981. I was set-up at this Show. Johnny was the guest signer.
His table was adjacent to mine. For 2 hours (in between "Big John" autographing), we had some really nice conversations Talkin' BB.
Before he left, he invited me to visit him in Demorest, Georgia, whenever I should be traveling down South.

On our way to Florida in 1987, I side-tracked into Georgia and visited with Johnny at his home. We reminisced for an hour (or more)
about the "good ole days". I recall asking him why he was traded by the Cardinals (1941), and then the Giants (1949) when he was
playing some really great BB. Johnny replied......
" I asked Billy Southworth (Mgr. St. Lo) for a pay increase. Southworth said no. Johnny told him....Pay me, or trade me ! "
This scenario was repeated with Durocher (Giants Mgr). The genius of Casey Stengel acquiring Johnny in 1949 benefited the Yankees
during their 1949 - 1953 "dynasty" years.

OK, having said all that, it is contemptible that the writer did not vote Curt Schilling into the HOF this year. He had 70% of their vote
last year. This year it was 71%. Shows you that a good number of these writers are just a bunch of "political hacks".

How does any one involved in Sports deny a Pitcher who achieved a Post-Season 11 - 2 Won - Lost record from being in the HOF ! ?
Show me another Pitcher in ML BB who comes close to that record.

Furthermore, Schilling has devoted a lot of his time, energy, and $$$$ for the ALS Foundation, and other Charities.


ENOUGH SAID !


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

Originally Posted by rats60 (Post 2062083)

He is one of the most underrated players of all time.
.312/.397/.562 OPS+ 158. 14th all-time in SLG, 16th in OPS, 17th in OPS+. Mize gets over looked because he lost 3 full seasons of his prime to the war and didn't hit magic milestones. Today he would be a 1st ballot Hall of Famer. My favorite stat is in 1947 he hit 51 HRs and struck out 42 times. The only time in history that a player hit 50 HRs with less than 50 SO. He led the NL in HRs 4 times and each season had less than 50 SO (in fact only one time did he SO 50+ times in a season with 57 in 1937).

Originally Posted by Bigdaddy (Post 2061785)

Why not just give the writers one shot, one time on the ballot?

Originally Posted by Tabe (Post 2062218)

Gonna respond to lots points all at once here:

1) Why do people bring up that steroids weren't banned when discussing them? Does it matter? They were illegal, as in against the law. MLB doesn't have a rule against armed bank robbery either but do we really think somebody wouldn't be punished for committing one?

2) Lots of people talking about stuff Curt Schilling as said - FYI, advocating for the murder of journalists isn't an "opinion" - but no one talking about what he did. Let's not forget he ripped off the state of Rhode Island to the tune of $75 million.

3) Somebody asked for another example of somebody who had 100+ RBI in 7 straight seasons and isn't in the Hall, like Gil Hodge. Here ya go: Albert Belle, who did it in 9 straight seasons. Belle belongs in the Hall, btw, and should be an absolute no-brainer.

Personally, I don't care if players did PEDs. I've gone back and forth on that over the years and have decided I no longer care. There are guys in the Hall that did them - Piazza, Bagwell, Ivan Rodriguez, to name three - and they were ALL OVER THE game in the 90s and 2000s. Hitters and pitchers using them. It's impossible to separate that guys that did them from the guys that didn't. And, besides players, there's already two guys in the Hall who benefited from them (Bud Selig and Tony LaRussa, whose criminal history seemed to bother no one). So, no, I wouldn't keep somebody out based on their PED usage.

I will say, though, the idea of David Ortiz getting in before Barry Bonds or Roger Clemens makes my head spin. He couldn't carry the jock of Bonds or Clemens and definitely couldn't without the roids.

Originally Posted by Ricky (Post 2062249)

Ortiz must still be on roids because he looks exactly the same now as he did when he played, unlike say, mark McGuire...

He had one test that came back positive and we don’t have any idea for what. He was tested many, many times over many years and never had another positive test yet kept putting up great numbers. He was never ripped like Bonds, just kind of roly-poly. I’m not convinced Ortiz was dirty.

Originally Posted by tedzan (Post 2062059)

One of the most egregious omissions by the "writers" was not inducting Johnny Mize into the HOF in the late 1950's (or early 1960's).

Johnny waited 23 years to finally be inducted into the HOF by the Veterans Committee in 1981.





https://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan...bphotomize.jpg





I first met Johnny at the Meadowlands, NJ BB card Show in the Fall of 1981. I was set-up at this Show. Johnny was the guest signer.

His table was adjacent to mine. For 2 hours (in between "Big John" autographing), we had some really nice conversations Talkin' BB.

Before he left, he invited me to visit him in Demorest, Georgia, whenever I should be traveling down South.



On our way to Florida in 1987, I side-tracked into Georgia and visited with Johnny at his home. We reminisced for an hour (or more)

about the "good ole days". I recall asking him why he was traded by the Cardinals (1941), and then the Giants (1949) when he was

playing some really great BB. Johnny replied......

" I asked Billy Southworth (Mgr. St. Lo) for a pay increase. Southworth said no. Johnny told him....Pay me, or trade me ! "

This scenario was repeated with Durocher (Giants Mgr). The genius of Casey Stengel acquiring Johnny in 1949 benefited the Yankees

during their 1949 - 1953 "dynasty" years.



OK, having said all that, it's contemptible that the writers did not vote Curt Schilling into the HOF this year. He had 70% of their vote

last year. This year it was 71%. Shows you that a good number of these writers are just a bunch of "political hacks".



How does any one involved in Sports deny a Pitcher who achieved a Post-Season 11 - 2 Won - Lost record from being in the HOF ! ?

Show me another Pitcher in ML BB who comes close to that record.



Furthermore, Schilling has devoted a lot of his time, energy, and $$$$ for the ALS Foundation, and other Charities.





ENOUGH SAID !





TED Z



T206 Reference

.

Originally Posted by Tabe (Post 2062218)

Gonna respond to lots points all at once here:

1) Why do people bring up that steroids weren't banned when discussing them? Does it matter? They were illegal, as in against the law. MLB doesn't have a rule against armed bank robbery either but do we really think somebody wouldn't be punished for committing one?

2) Lots of people talking about stuff Curt Schilling has said - FYI, advocating for the murder of journalists isn't an "opinion" - but no one talking about what he did. Let's not forget he ripped off the state of Rhode Island to the tune of $75 million.

3) Somebody asked for another example of somebody who had 100+ RBI in 7 straight seasons and isn't in the Hall, like Gil Hodge. Here ya go: Albert Belle, who did it in 9 straight seasons. Belle belongs in the Hall, btw, and should be an absolute no-brainer.

Personally, I don't care if players did PEDs. I've gone back and forth on that over the years and have decided I no longer care. There are guys in the Hall that did them - Piazza, Bagwell, Ivan Rodriguez, to name three - and they were ALL OVER THE game in the 90s and 2000s. Hitters and pitchers using them. It's impossible to separate that guys that did them from the guys that didn't. And, besides players, there's already two guys in the Hall who benefited from them (Bud Selig and Tony LaRussa, whose criminal history seemed to bother no one). So, no, I wouldn't keep somebody out based on their PED usage.

I will say, though, the idea of David Ortiz getting in before Barry Bonds or Roger Clemens makes my head spin. He couldn't carry the jock of Bonds or Clemens and definitely couldn't without the roids.

Originally Posted by Brian Van Horn (Post 2062139)

Just curious. Not sure if it is this year or next year, but when is the vote on Dahlen and other players of his era?

Originally Posted by Brian Van Horn (Post 2062139)

Just curious. Not sure if it is this year or next year, but when is the vote on Dahlen and other players of his era?

Originally Posted by rats60 (Post 2062256)

Alex Rodriguez never tested positive for steroids That doesn't mean he wasn't using them.

Originally Posted by Ricky (Post 2062502)

Wasn’t ARod suspended?

Originally Posted by cammb (Post 2062419)

"he" didn't rip off the state of Rhode Island. That's your opinion. His company accepted a bond sale from thre state t move his company to Rhode Island. They went bankrupt and the state charged his company with fraud for the fact they weren't forthcoming in their projected sales etc. They settled for 2.5 million. Schilling maintains his innocense. He also lost 50 million of his own money.

Originally Posted by Tabe (Post 2063182)

The state actually won $61m from Schilling and his company. Schilling and his company lied to the state when getting the $75m, not telling Rhode Island that the money wasn't enough to fund development of the game they were promising. They also mismanaged the money they did receive.

So, yeah, he - and his company - ripped off the state.