I agree with this sentiment. There was zero reason to ruin his reputation over this deal, a refund should have been granted. 33 Goudey Gehrigs, even ones that grade Authentic, sell pretty easily. Someone would've taken this off Kevin's hands almost immediately.

It shouldn't have led to this. But Leon gave him a way out and he chose not to take it. He asked for it as far as I'm concerned.

Does this policy only apply to raw cards, but not to cards called out on blowout as altered?

This guy seems like a real gem to deal with.:rolleyes:

His abrasiveness was never ending. For those who claim to of had a good experience with him there were many more who did not.

Good riddance!

I tried!!!! I'd like my demerits changed to stars please!!!

There are obviously exceptions to every rule.;)

Leon, thanks for taking care of this board. I know it's not easy trying to manage all of us but I appreciate what you have done to make Net54 what it is.

I joined for the BST, but started reading the other forums and I am amazed by the knowledge and helpfulness of the members here. I have learned so much and am very happy I found this place.

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Grade/Authenticity
 

"Authenticity" and "Grade" are two completely different concepts. Authenticity references whether the card is real or not, while grade is an indicator of its relative condition. There can be no such thing as an "authentic grade", even though you do see that phrase used from time to time. The buyer has every expectation of receiving a refund in this situation, in my opinion.

For those posting that they are surprised Kevin "would ruin his reputation over this," if you think *this* incident ruins his reputation, you've not been paying attention.

Bill Roberts

1933 Gehrig still available.

After looking at the card on a large screen in my office I ruled out some initial concerns that I had. The image appeared to have discoloration and wear patterns that are consistent with reproductions but appears better when viewed at 42 inches:) Also, I don't believe Kevin would intentionally sell a reproduction(and skilled at identifying them) so my apologies to him for my above statement. I'll also add, in the spirit of removing divisiveness, that Kevin and I had a disagreement years ago and what I found was our communication turned positive through conversation. Selling miscut cards and discounting/bumping them is not a big deal to me. Having a sales pitch doesn't really bother me either. Kevin has had some pretty beautiful cards that aside from their cut presented extremely well. So, I'm being positive here and suggesting the weight and pull of the community can drive a more positive outcome in the future. Might he have changed his tune with honoring his policy if he didn't feel called out publicly? I've been around card dealers since the early eighties and though some are wonderful, there is a hefty percentage of quirky, stubborn and even outright rude ones too. I would say we are not necessarily better with him gone and we don't know what impact being gone has on his lively hood. Maybe none, but he clearly generates some income from cards. I say give him another chance to make this right according to the communities standards, review his listing style and purchase agreement and be welcomed back for another shot.

edited to ad: GO IRISH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

There are two sometimes seen ways of "marketing" some cards in a listing that are, at minimum, a misrepresentation (and could even be considered fraudulent advertising):

- Quoting the nr-mt BV of a low grade card (in that manner which infers that the card is worth that much)

- Omitting a qualifier from the heading of a listing and/or directly comparing pops and prices of the qualifier card to non-qualifier ones

As others have mentioned, this seller has repeatedly done some of the latter. Regardless of the situation with the Gehrig card, I think any community is better off without that kind of participant.

Just go and check the last sales of a few of them. Therein lies your answer. I'm all for making a fair profit on a card, but some are just an insult to one's intelligence

Where is the SGC screenshot that the OP mentions?

LOL, we have one of those sellers on here.:) They acted like they were new to collecting so I PMed them a few times about how bad listing like that looked. Turns out in reality they own or at least owned a card shop because the PP account they paid me with for some cards was from a card shop.

Of all the things a seller does that bother me, these two don't even break the top 10.

Going to pick it up from USPS today 11/09. USPS took my signed delivery slip on Saturday that I left in my mailbox but didn't deliver said package. I promise I will post a picture when the card is in my hand.

Some of the posters in this thread state they have had smooth transactions with Kevin. I agree, my initial purchase went flawless. I paid, he delivered quickly. Very professional. It just became a different story when I asked for a refund. To me it seemed like a Target purchase: buy a vacuum, vacuum isn't what you expected, you return it with the receipt and get your money back. He was a little upset over the TPG turn-around time, I get that. But turn-around time was not in my control. After he refused refund the first time, I told him this wasn't a deal to turn into Custer's Last Stand. But he must have his reasoning, which he never made clear to either me or Leon.

Maybe, but I guarantee many of us who were unaware are in the know now.

Four and one half years of B/S/T bumps of the Wagner portrait coming to an end. :(

Rob M

P.S. Nice bst post Paul G. Just under the wire, lol.

Exactly. To me, a PSA slab that says "Authentic" is not graded, it's just verified as being a real card. To be graded, it's gotta have a number on it.

I don't always adhere to the old adage, "if you can't say something good about someone then say nothing at all", so I'll say this about Kevin

Leon just closed the thread - the most viewed BST thread 25,008 Views - that's like Cy Young's win record, I can;t see anyone sniffing it.

The man was ahead of time. No wait.......nevermind......I'm thinking of the fake Rolex he's probably wearing.

5 years ago, I bought a couple cards from Kevin. After that he and I negotiated another deal, he accepted and then backed out of the deal ($200) and didn’t sell the cards. I was Not out any money but it was unprofessional, and never bought anything from him again, and would have if his posts were from a different seller.
Cory Weiser

Here are the shots. Not slabbed. I don't know what I needed to click to get it slabbed. Like I said, this was my first submission.

But my other submissions came back graded. I really like the black background.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...557d98a4d7.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...44d27f4a70.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...2b21b088ab.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...242c394968.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...45715a99a6.jpg

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There seemed to be some interest in it. Put it in the BST section at a break even price. Best of luck.:)

That card carries a premium now, it's famous after the last couple of days...

I'm a card idiot mind you, so bare with me.

What about it is altered?

If it's the size, can you lay it over another Goudey you have and take a pix?

I'd like to see the difference.

Bye!
 

Good riddance . . . IMHO

my guess is color added...size looks good.

I am guessing it's the corners that account for the "grade".

Rather than natural corner wear, it looks like the corners (at one point in time) were artificially rounded by a scissors. Just a guess, without having it in-hand.

Its possible...I'm no grading expert. BUT...It seems they could have been in a stack heavily handled and put in a kids pocket over and over...that would certainly round corners uniformly...all the cards in the stack.

Kevin clearly screwed the pooch.

However, as a buyer/seller of graded cards for 20 years, those on here judging an Authentic grade as not a 'grade' are incorrect.

A grade refers to an assessment, not a number.

Many many many many times I've been asked what grade a card received that I put in to a TPG. If the card can be holdered, even with an assessment of only 'authentic', that is the grade it received. There is even a column on all the big three TPGers that is for Auth. It is a grade, and sometimes will be considered superior to a 1 2 or 3 if fantastic eye appeal is of value.
This will happen regularly to cards like Old Judges, strip cards, and famously the 52' Topps Mantle.

Kevin is all kinds of wrong because he's a douche and finds the few extra dollars he can make more important than his hobby cred.
However, if this card WOULD grade Authentic because of an alteration like trimming and not meeting minimum size, and the card had indeed been entombed, he would technically be fine.

The first isn't mine...bummer.
The second I've owned for nearly 15 years.

https://hosting.photobucket.com/albu...ssingcolor.jpg

https://hosting.photobucket.com/imag...paigefront.JPG

I tend to agree with this mindset...especially the first sentence in the fifth paragraph.

In this day and age it seems A is a grade?

Tough crowd. I reflect on the soft, pink, pot-bellied and balding crowds at shows and bet none of those guys are here slinging their daggers at Kevin. None of those briefcase weilding or fanny pack wearing(magnifier loupe at the ready) gentlemen passing their judgement here. If they were then I'm certain they would be equally as willing to throw the dagger in person. It's important for middle to advanced aged men to stand tall against the face of the beater card adversary. Of course you should be able to buy a beater and expect to get more than a beater. Caveat Venditor! Mount up prewar baseball collectors and off to forum war!!!! Grab your loupes and protective sleeves! Someone just bumped a post!!!! There's fantasy sports, golf at stake and latte's with special sprinkles to get to. Let no overpriced or too frequently a bump get in your way!!!! It's "go time" men.

Laid over the Tris Speaker and they appeared to be the same size. I did that before I shipped / submitted them and couldn't tell a difference with my fingers running over the edges.

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I have to disagree that an "A" or "AUT" is a grade. It is an opinion of authenticity but not a grade. A grade is a numerical assessment of condition. When a number grade is assigned the authenticity is implied. But without a number it's not a grade of the card. Poor is the lowest grade, not Authentic.

+1

Authentic/Graded
 

Nope. Directly from the PSA Website:
"Authentication is the process of verifying the originality or genuineness of a trading card. Grading is assessing the quality and condition of a trading card using PSA's 10-point grading scale. Grading can only take place AFTER a trading card has been deemed AUTHENTIC."
I believe other grading companies concur this philosophy.

I stand corrected...although all this is is PSA's opinion. I likely have more experience than most of their graders...so my opinion is worth more!!!!

IMO the technical debates about what "grade" means are beside the point. Selling in this community has advantages such as no fees, and if a buyer isn't happy and requests a return within a reasonable time, a seller who wants to sell in this community should just suck it up and take the card back out of good will. All the more so when the buyer has a good faith belief the card was not what he expected.

Yeah, that lighter area from right around his elbow going towards the right looks like it's either been treated or painted in.

This card did not come back Authentic it came back Altered. Which is not a grade, it is a qualifier. In this case looks like the dreded Altered Stock. Really harsh term for stored in a screwdown that was too tight. In the OP the buyer stated that he would have been fine if it was in a Authentic holder. But, he was not ok with an Authentic with one or more qualifiers.
I am late here but I see this as the issue. If I buy a card that is Guaranteed to grade. I 100% would not accept a card that came back trimmed, or Altered stock or recolored. And I agree with OP seller should have offered refund.
Jonathan

Hmmm....
soft? - Maybe?
Pink? - I suppose, not all that pale, but not like I've been working outdoors all summer either.
Pot bellied - depends on where you draw that line. Not svelte, but not awful.
Balding - sorta, I am getting a bit old.

Briefcase - Nope
Fanny pack - No, briefcase would be far more likely.

Would I throw down the dagger in person on someone selling something as something it's not?

Yeah, for sure.
Whether It's Kevin, who you seem to imply is some sort of card selling badass*, or some name calling kid.

Just remember, Old people have lost most of their pride (Goes with the balding and fatness you'll understand someday) and are not at all above fighting dirty. Or pissing people off.
---------------------------
* Worked at a dealership and one of the mechanics was a former genuine Hells Angel. Met him again a few years later, at a card show. Where he was dealing.... hockey cards. Nice guy but...

Hey Gary,
yeah?
Can I ask a question you might not want to answer?
Sure, worst I'll do is say get lost
What's the tattoo that says "Hook" mean?
It's a nickname. I took a guys calf off with a meathook once in a brawl. (Yeah, he was also very open about stuff if asked directly)

He was a really nice calm guy pretty much all the time.
Wherever you ended up Gary I hope the card dealing worked out great.

A very BIG +1. Adios!!!

I like the cut of your jib Steve.

And not a day too soon. One of the reasons I ignored his bst posts.

Thought to myself, "what do the grading companies have to say?" So I checked the PSA and SGC sites for their grading scales. Neither company lists "authentic" or anything else non-numeric as a possible grade.

Not sure if this will work, don't know how to do a screen capture and load it...

Here is a link to the PSA pop report for 1952 Topps Cards.
https://www.psacard.com/pop/baseball...52/topps/49722

Reading across the row left to right:

Card no (1) / Name (Andy Pafko) / Grade / pop for column headed Auth / and then the population for each numerical grade column eg 1, 1.5, - 10. / Total

Authentic is clearly listed as a grade in the population for the cards that have been graded of that player, it has it's own column directly adjacent to the numberical ones..
I used a calculator to be sure, and indeed the Authentic pop numbers are included in the total population.

If Authentic is not a grade they are doing a great job of misdirection.

Also, below each Auth/numerical grade option are a row for the cards that have been assigned a + assessment and a further row for those that have been given qualifiers.
Authentic graded cards are not given a separate demarcation or row, they are included and indeed graphed as a graded part of the population.

Interestingly it seems BGS have changed their format for cards (since I last looked) and no longer have the Auth designation listed whatsoever.... I haven't been on SGC's website for yonks since they were 'down' for what seemed an eternity.
Strange for Beckett not to offer any statistics for Authentic cards, regardless how you graph it I would think collectors would find the population number valuable in assessing relative scarcity and price?

I think a lot of people are missing this point.

Personally, I’ve often though of Authentic as grade of less than 1. I’ve had cards in such bad shape that they didn’t deserve a 1 grade, so they were just marked Authentic. But, if I was buying a card that I was told would grade, I’d be expecting a number.

So then it appears there are 2 additional grades - Authentic and Altered

Which is the better "grade" - I would assume Altered or no?

In my opinion, it's altered. I have a couple of cards that are labeled Altered that were slightly trimmed, The eye appeal on both of them is very strong.

Anyone who says ALTERED is a grade when someone uses the phrase "Guaranteed to grade" please stand up and be counted so I can make sure I never do business with you.

Best post I've read in this thread.
But let's not be too harsh... most of the gentleman who pile on in these posts probably don't realize that they're senile old dinosaurs.... or maybe they can't remember?? :D

or removed. On the back there is a light en mark above the "k" in New York

Now that is funny!!

+1

That's what I thought when I first saw it.

Amen to that. Since when is "doesn't qualify for a grade because it's been altered" a grade?

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I completely agree with Scott. If you guarantee it to grade it means a numeric grade, if not why do you need to use two statements?

"Fair condition....I guarantee the card to be authentic, and will grade,"

Steadily got inquiries on it. . . . better move fast.

Sort of wonder why he never just gave the damm thing to an AH.

+1

"I guarantee the card to be authentic, and will grade"

In our hobby, this unequivocally means the card will receive a number grade. I have little patience for people who twist words, pretend they mean something else and then attempt to make you feel stupid.

There are plenty of sellers who will take cards back no questions asked, where we don't need silly little protections, platitudes, and meaningless guarantees.

And there are buyers who will find those sellers and send them $1000s via PPFF for the cards they want. and not think twice.

With the amount of bad press this guy is getting, I think I might change my user name...

If the card was slabbed SGC would have given a grade of Authentic. There is no grade of Altered. I dont believe I have ever seen a SGC card labeled as Authentic with altered also mentioned, but I could be wrong. The OP didn't check the box to have it slabbed even it is authentic.

My thoughts exactly. I see no trim, paper alteration by screw down or man on the grassy knoll. If that ink was erased even slightly it’s an alt grade.

As someone who actually prefers an visually pleasing auth, alt or “1” with tiny paper loss but looks great, I like the card. I would always go with presentation over grade. That said the card should have been taken back nicely and I am sure it would have sold quickly even in an alt slab. Totally siding with the OP on this.

That said it will be a bummer to not have someone to completely overreact and start denigrating my entire family if he disagrees with anything...darn. I am sure a newbie will step up to the plate soon.

Thank you, Scott, for your continued leadership within the hobby.

Same here...

Dozens of times, I wanted to respond to just one of those endless threads, to say JUST CONSIGN THE DAMNED THING!

But thought it was bad form to hijack someone’s BST post (even for a shady seller and reneger). So just bit my tongue time and again.

If nothing else, this thread provides solid evidence that what goes around comes around.

Yes it is and that's why I buzz right by his listings. I have completed probably over 50K worth of deals from forum members and never had a problem. Nothing but quality guys for the most part with a couple of dopey MCdope dopes.... I think he'll do the right thing....eventually. Either just make a simple refund for a guy who's not happy or shove it down his throat and risk his reputation further. Good Luck!

I buy low grade vintage cards as well. That's what's in my budget. I just know from a couple other cards I purchased in the past that didn't turn out as described by the seller, that the feeling of being duped or swindled takes the luster and excitement away from the card, and I just don't enjoy it as I originally thought I would. It's still the same card I saw in June, I just feel differently about it.

That train has left the station.

And yet we still answer your questions....

Old dinosaurs don't get lattes with special sprinkles.

We get coffee flavored coffee.

Latte with sprinkles is a millennial thing.

Well that sucks, I am old and I love the sprinkles, my wife does tease me about them though.:)

I had pretty much the same exact thing happen to me a couple years ago. Also from a fellow member but a more expensive card.

I fricken hated the card at first. After some time I realized it was still a good deal for the card. Then weirdly it became one of my favorite cards.

+1

The guarantee said it all IMO. No encapsulation and returned with an ALT is a refusal to grade. Case closed.

Good lesson for all of us: regardless of who might prevail in a court case, as peers and members of this community (and sometimes even friends) there should be a higher degree of consideration for one another than the bare-knuckles outcome of law or caveat emptor.

And FWIW, I am a proud card-carrying member of the lowest grade card collectors of America:

https://photos.imageevent.com/exhibi...20Robinson.JPG

Adam--you should check out the 53 Mantle in the gem thread. It looks like a good fit

For every one of these, there are hundreds of positive transactions on BST. I've had nothing but great, well-communicated deals on here.

The first card I bought I couldn't look at without getting angry. I overpaid on a 61T lot for a 1961 Mantle 300, but I needed it for the set. Big crease down the middle not disclosed, and it didn't show up on photos. I eventually sold it. The second card I bought I still own, same thing as you, my feelings changed about it over time.

+1 All my other deals on this site have been fantastic

And that is the way we want to keep it. Our members are the best defense.
.

The BST here is one of my favorite places to purchase cards.