Bob,

Thank you for the kind words.

+1

Thank you, John.

Now, back to the opinions and focus of the thread.

As an update - I can confirm that after requesting a refund again - I have been told to wait an additional week. I'm still a little frustrated that I am continuing to bear the entire burden of this for additional time but at the very least I have some kind of timeline. My biggest learning from this is simply that proactive and clear communication goes a LONG way. So on the plus side - my transactional empathy is at an all-time high.

Thanks to all who weighed in - I do appreciate it - as this is an unusual position for me to be in and I have not enjoyed it. I do hope this will be helpful in terms of setting up some additional best practices:

- seller assumes shipping responsibility once cards and shipping are paid for by buyer
- when shipping issue arise - seller should communicate proactively and clearly
- after 30 days - seller should refund item cost (exceptions maybe in special situations where there is a problematic/scammy history)
- insurance is optional for seller but this decision should not impact any of the above.
- in higher dollar transactions over 1k I actually video myself packing the items up and sealing them


I'm sure there are more but these are the ones that bubbled up as the chain here expanded. I'm hoping this is all resolved by Tuesday of next week

The video will do no good at all in any way.

I agree that 30 days is enough that a refund should be made. You having to wait over 2 months is crazy.

I'm glad the seller is going to do the right thing but 2 months is just way too long.

Yeah on the video - I've done it opening packages and that made me feel somehow secure so I started doing it as a seller in certain situations. But you're right taking a video of the packing process is barely an illusion of security with no way to prove any kind of chain of custody. Good call....

"-the seller looked up an address of a property I own and has asked multiple times why the cards weren't sent to an address of a house I own that my mother in law lives in
- presumably this address was looked up on White Pages via my name"

I am a bit curious about the answer to this part.....would this have anything to do with why it wasn't delivered?

Bob, I asked the same question and Who is TYRUSCOBB who has been posting in this thread without a name???????

Bob,

I will be more than happy to answer that question. I did the online search to see if there was any discrepancy in the address to which I mailed the cards to Kevin. One site, Mylife.com, had Brooklyn listed as a previous residence. Now, being anal retentive, I not only checked the address against a previous transaction I had with Kevin, but also checked online. Thus, I found the claim that his mailing address was a former address. Also, thus the reason I asked the question, not once but twice. I received a response on the first inquiry, but I wanted further clarification when I asked the second time.

So the search was done AFTER you mailed the item.......Thank you for the response.

I just wanted to add, that I didn't mean to imply that Brian wasn't going to hold up his end of the deal. Maybe it's not the timeline the OP would have liked, but sounds like Brian is making good on his end of the deal. I would absolutely continue to buy items from Brian without reservation...even more if he would ever give me that large discount I keep hoping for.

Mac

I don't think this person has crossed the "full-name" line yet for needing a name but they can consider this fair warning that anymore debating is going to need a full name.

The truth i still really want the cards! They were three Jimmie Foxx cards and believe it or not - that what I really wanted out of this :) The refund will absolutely go to more Jimmie Foxx and likely now an upgrade on my post card exhibit.

That's a very nice, authentic Fro Joy, Leon.

Just so everyone is clear, the transaction was for three Foxx cards and a 1933 Eddie Morgan card. I have to admit I forgot about the Eddie Morgan card when I was listing the contents with scans for the claim on the USPS website.

Thanks, Leon. I have visited this site, as a guest, for several years. I officially joined this past summer when EBay started collecting state sales tax. I joined to obtain access to the buy/sell/trade forum (guest viewers cannot access it).

I am always looking for a good card and deal to add to my low-grade vintage collection (not investment). I joined to potentially save money in buying cards (avoiding fees, etc). I have successfully transacted with two members. Everything went smoothly both times.

I do not post a lot, but enjoy reading them and learning. I ventured into this topic, because it involves the law. I do not practice in this specific legal area, but have some experience in it many years ago.

This debate interested me. I do not have a dog in this fight. I do not know either party. I was just providing my humble opinion. I’ll return to the shadows now.

Just an update. Kevin has been refunded his money including s/h. If anyone sees the following cards, please let me know.

funny that it involves these cards!

I made an offer on those Foxx's wondering who you sold those too....guess i know now..

if you happen to get them back Id still be interested in one or more of them and i never had a problem with the mail.

I also have "never had a problem" receiving mail until this transaction - but you can certainly engage the seller of the cards I ordered if they are found. For factual transparency'a sake I received the refund after 11 weeks. I asked for restitution after month 1 and month 2 with a total of 4 requests.

I wanted to add that if you are looking to add some extra life to your business (if you try to make money selling cards/memorabilia) - it would be wise to remember that the true test of customer service is when there is an issue/problem in transactions.

Merely expecting having items delivered on time by a postal carrier is table stakes and NOT a wise customer service strategy. Everyone gets good reviews when an item is delivered on time. I will certainly consider this the next time I select a vendor for purchase.

Make sure to go on usps and change delivery instructions back to your house. Maybe that will shake it loose?

Worthless Thread
 

Pretty worthless thread, the seller should have paid the additional $5 or so insurance originally---sellers should always protect themselves again postal mishaps on $100+ transactions (or suffer the $ $ consequences). This is even more apparent since the seller did not know the buyer but even so, the postal office misplaces, loses, and steals items everyday

When the card did not arrive arrive a refund in short thrift was due. A simple short and quick question & answer to the buyer may have been appropriate but for them to wait this long with all the back and forth is TOTALLY uncalled for....

Look, if you don't want to be a professional seller and all that comes with that DO NOT SELL CARDS. Last but not least, as a seller if you think insurance will be needed price that into your accepted sale price

Gentlemen,

Just a couple of points here.

First, in all the time I have been selling I have used certified mail. I estimate that to be over 4,000 transactions. This is the second time a package has been lost. A success rate that equates to greater than 99.95%. I will continue to use certified mail as the process for delivering cards. If anyone would like insurance, I will be more than happy to comply and advise them of the additional cost.

Second, there was a previous case, not related to the two in which cards did not arrive, in which the cards arrived after 2 1/2 months. Just providing complete disclosure.

Brian, I see your point about packages sometimes taking that long to show up. We all know it happens but making the buyer wait that long isn't right. You probably should have refunded after 30 days and trust that the buyer would pay if the package eventually did show up.

As for insurance, it protects the seller not the buyer especially when Paypal is used. Add it to the cost for your own peace of mind.

Agreed. The buyer should have been refunded quickly and without a hassle. No, it’s not how “every” transaction works necessarily, but it’s what buyers have come to expect, and the most professional thing to do.


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hopefully this concludes this thread

Brian, certified mail costs $3.55, and it is my understanding that this doesn't protect the shipper from loss or damage by the USPS while in transit. For the same $3.55 you can purchase $200 of USPS insurance to cover such loss or damage. BTW, if one purchases over $500 of USPS insurance, the USPS carrier is required to obtain a signature upon delivery, and this is reflected in the cost of insurance - $500 of USPS insurance costs $7.10, and $501 of insurance costs $9.55. FYI, I never purchase certified mail, but I almost always purchase insurance when I ship cards worth more than $100.

Ditto
 

I will sometimes purchase insurance for less than the value of what I am sending and "self insure" for the balance. If it's a bigger deal - will always take at least as much insurance as will require a signature.

Brian-If you are shipping certified but guaranteeing to the buyer that the card/cards will arrive or you will refund their purchase price why would the buyer ever pay additional for insurance? I suggest that in the future you quote a base price plus “shipping” for each card. If the buyer wants insurance he has to pay for it. If he turns insurance down then he is assuming risk of loss. All you need is delivery confirmation, you are wasting money on certified mail.

Insurance protects the seller not the buyer. Refusing to buy insurance doesn't put the buyer on the hook for damage or loss. That's nonsense. It's the job of the seller to get the item to the buyer safely. Period. The buyer doesn't have to pay extra to make that happen. If insurance is purchased, who is still responsible for properly packaging the item since a claim will be rejected for improper packaging? The seller. If there's a problem, who makes the claim? The seller. Who collects if the claim is paid out? The seller. That's why the seller pays for insurance and the buyer has nothing to do with it.

Chris for the win! Common sense prevails.

Non-delivery/severe delay on a BST transaction
 

Insuring packages for their actual value is nothing new. My LCS dealer does bulk submissions to PSA and Beckett for his customers. He gets the insurance charges back in what he upsells them for to do the grading, but it’s not uncommon for him to insure a single shipment for $15 - 20K. He did tell me the post office thinks he’s crazy; he usually ships via UPS.


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Val,

I appreciate it, but it is not for the same $3.55. Insurance would be an extra charge. I wanted to hold off on comment until after visiting my local post office. Given the insurance and my want for a signature, the amount would be greater. Here is a USPS rate sheet. The encircled areas were done by the clerk on duty.

Jay,

I appreciate it. I hate the idea of giving up on a system that has worked all but two times in over 4,000 transactions, but I have to consider that signature confirmation is 40 cents cheaper. In both cases in which this failed, the buyer has been refunded.

Brian, you misinterpreted my comment. What I thought I was clearly saying is that for the same $$ you are spending on certified mail (which does little for you, IMO), you could purchase $200 of USPS insurance instead.

BTW, I am not concerned about getting a signature for items that I have insured for up to $500 (over $500 of insurance, the USPS automatically gets a signature). If the USPS Tracking System shows my item was delivered, then I'm in the clear if it disappears from the purchaser's mailbox or porch. If the purchaser claims it arrived damaged, then I require the purchaser to send me pics of the damage which I submit with my claim to the USPS. Over the past 20 years, I've had a few items either disappear or be damaged in transit, and the USPS has always paid my claims on a timely basis.

My apologies for my misinterpretation.

also its the seller that sets the terms...if the seller doesnt say 'delivery confirmation means no refunds' or whatever he really wants..he needs to be specifics....any vagueness the benefit goes to the buyer.....just like writing a contract...whoever writes the contract sets the terms but is also on the hook for any vagueness

Same member, same situation
 

First, I would like to thank the veteran member who sent me this old thread, you know who you are. This old thread lays out the same circumstances that I outlined in my recent post. It appears that my seller has been involved in similar situations with other members of this forum. He outs himself so I no longer have to debate myself on whether or not I should do so. I would like to point out that what he says about sending things out certified was not in my case for whatever reason. It certainly seems like the overwhelming majority of members agree that the seller should be held responsible for refunding a buyer for a non-delivered package. I, as an eBay seller for over ten years, have issued refunds on the only two occasions when this occurred. Yes, it sucks to have to lose money but that’s life. And doing what’s right should always take priority over money.
SO BRIAN, COULD YOU PLEASE NOW RESPOND TO MY REPEATED REQUESTS AND ISSUE ME A REFUND, and go file a claim with the post office. Maybe that will jar this package loose once some pressure is put on and if I ever receive it I would happily pay you for it as agreed.

I hope you aren't under the misconception your full name doesn't need to be out here. Circumventing the rule, in bold letters at the top of each page, by bumping this thread doesn't negate the need to have it here. Thanks

I have kicked myself for buying insurance so many times without an incident. But the one time I needed it, I had to file a claim against UPS for destroying a $2,500 item, which they refused to pay because they said I packaged it poorly. I took them to small claims court, and when the UPS rep made the same claim there, I produced a receipt for about $30 worth of packing materials, which I had purchased from UPS the day the package was sent. The judge ordered UPS to pay me, which they did.

I hope all members read this and learn a valuable lesson to always use PayPal Goods and Services no matter who the seller is.

What would Paypal G&S do in this situation? I assume they would reimburse the buyer. Would they charge back the seller?

I had this conversation with another member recently. Neither of us is sure whether PayPal provides some insurance benefit or is merely guaranteeing seller's performance.

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Goods and Services offers buyers protection in case the package never delivered or the item is different than the seller descibed. You will receive a refund.

PayPal offers Friends and Family for non-purchase transactions between Friends and Family. A lot of people don't know its against PayPal rules to use F&F to buy stuff because you're cheating them out of their fees and you're account can be suspended.

You describe it as a refund, so does that mean PayPal is charging back the seller? Outside of taking the money back from the seller and refunding the customer are they providing any other benefit? I assume they are taking the risk they can't collect from the seller.

I guess what I am asking is in the case of Brian and Kevin, would PayPal G&S function as an insurer? Or would they just act as the Net54 chorus and make Brian refund Kevin?

To ask this another way: right now Brian is out the money and the 4 cards, and Kevin is whole. If Kevin had used G&S would anything change, other than one of the two would be out another 3%?

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PayPal refunds the buyer then goes after the seller for the money. If the seller has no money in their account, PayPal puts a hold for that amount and if the sellers sells another item, PayPal will take money to satisfy the hold.

PayPal has been known to use collection agencies to collect from sellers, whose accounts are negative so I assume it affect their credit rating as well but not 100% sure on that.

Sellers assume the risk and take the loss on lost packages, unless they purchase insurance through the carrier or privately.